Funny...these are the same posts I remember seeing for WoW, and SWG, and DAoC, and EQ2, and EQ, and UO2...
People that like PvP will want it in every game. The reasons are almost always the same. More interaction, more thrill, better opponents, less of the same grind. While those are laudable reasons, reality is usually far from that. Most PvP I've encountered doesn't make the game any more fun. If it's free form (aka original UO) then it turns into a gank fest. WoW does it a bit better but you still get overgeared max level characters harrassing greys. Is that really a challenge? Does making it so I have to play a stealth character so I can level in peace make it better for me? DAoC created specific PvP servers that had open PvP and what happened? People flocked to them for a while then they nearly died out and had to be consolidated. It's no fun creating a new toon on servers with max level players coming around and ganking everyone.
For me, I only PvE. I have no problem finding fun in doing so. Every game I've played, from UO to WoW, has had pleanty for me to do and see without needing to resort to killing other players. Sure, grinding the same mobs, quests, etc. can get dull but I have enough guild members with me to make it more enjoyable. I have no problem with Duels, PvP instances, etc. but world-wide PvP needs to be contained to specific servers so those people that want it can do it and the rest of us can enjoy a world without the problems it has. If the developer doesn't want to devote the time to making a different ruleset, fine by me.
PvP is the most important part of an MMORPG, and if an MMO doesnt even have PvP at launch, then I don't bother buying it. Everquest is a perfect example, and I am proud to say that Ultima Online was my first real MMORPG. Why bother playing in an MMO if all you're going to do is kill computer controlled creatures all day? If that's what you want to do, go play .hack or the regular Final Fantasy games. Anyone who thinks that freeform PvP is a bad thing for a game is sorely mistaken. Most of you probably hate PvP because you've played games that implement it terribly (WoW). Anyone who played UO (actually played, not farmed) for a good amount of time knows the importance of PvP. PvP keeps games alive long after players have finished the PvE content. The only reason a game like WoW, which has terrible PvP, is still going is because they keep adding new instances and people keep mindlessly playing them.
As has allready been said, their are PvP centric games, but they are either getting old (DAoC) or just plain suck (Shadowbane). SWG was perfect, IMO, for PvP and it was run well. Hell, WoW had decent PvP before the Battlegrounds were added. When I first looked at MEO, they were planning on having the evil races playable. I still dont see why they aren't. Dont give me that "they aren't intelligent" junk. Intelligent enough to recognize and kidnap a hobbit is intelligent enough to do quests and further the expansion of their master. It is correct, however, to say that PvP in what the game has become would be ludicrous. Real PvP would require you to be able to play as an orc, uruk, wraith, or whatever. It wont work in what the game has become. WAR seems to be the only PvP based game that MIGHT get it right...
starman made a good point competition adds to immersion and an overall reason to play... competing is fun and with an MMO pvp gives u a reason to go on the same 3-6 hour raid 20+ times. its all about variety and PvPers dont hate PvE we just want pvp in the game because to us its all about skill.PvE is no satifaction to many of us, who cares if you kill a dragon with 100 people or with 20 after that first time its not fun anymore. with that said there is no way a dev team can pump out content fast enough to make raiding enjoyable you will always have to grind instances or boss mobs for a couple months before they release a new one its the nature of the game and in my other post i mention this. alot of people hate the "gear grind" theme of WoW because theyre PvP is so dull/bland
we are all MMO veterans by now, give or take a few we have most likely tried EQ2, WoW, DaoC and have experienced questing in those games it will be the same old thing in LOTRO.. but in tolkiens world... even EQ2 had to add pvp 1-2 years later because of the demand. and now vanguard has announced it to. the beauty of PvP is you dont have to participate in it if you dont want to = thier are always ways to keep players whom dont want to pvp safe. so why bitch about pvp? you just fuck other people out of extra content.
last but not least the reason devs havent set up the game like WoW alliance vs horde evil vs good style is because tolkiens world is to big... it would take them realistcally another 2-3 years if they wanted to add mordor and isenguard think of all the cities that would have to be added and land from the shire to mordor... unless u want them to pull a SWG with stupid terrain generated lands with nothing to see or do outside of towns, we have to be patient for PvP and prob wait till expansions fill in the gaps.
PvP should be a side note in this game. LotR:OL is an MMO"RPG" not an "MMOFPS". I can count on one hand the number of people that have ganked me while they were role-playing. Every other time it has been some "leet" speaking low-life that spends 14-18 hours a day making peoples lives miserable for his own amusement. At least in a PvE environment I can /ignore idiots without ending up dead. Just because I have a life outside of a game and can't spend 5-10 hours raiding several times a week for the best equipment to defend myself, should not mean that I can not have an enjoyable experience when I wish to play. Can any PvP'er name one time when a PvE'er has ruined their day in a game.
Secondly, why does the entire game have to be changed to allow a minority of players to play the game the way THEY want to at the expense of the majority? What am I talking about? Balancing Why is it deemed acceptable that a support class should be able to take a tank class in a fight? Why should any class be nerfed or buffed to make it even with another class. If you HAVE to PvP, pick a class that is DESIGNED to PvP. If you want to be a healer, face up that you won't be PvP champion!
If any game game maker decides to make a PvP game, GREAT!!! I am all for it! I won't play it, but there is a good following that will and I am happy for them. I swear and promise that I won't go troling the PvP games forums whining that there is no PvE, and stating that the game will fail without PvE. If you are going to make a PvE game, make a PvE game and leave it a PvE game. No one can please everyone all the time. Pick a target audience and stick with it. These games loose more people by switching horses in mid-stream than they would if they had just followed through with what they had started. (See SWG) Look, if Turbine had said, "Hey all! We are making this new game called Lord or the Rings: On-line PvP!" I would have looked at it and decided it wasn't for me and move on. What I am upset about is that we were promised x, y and z but are ending up with b and s. Just another same old same old MMORPG but with Tolkien (Jackson for all the non-readers) wrapped around it.
Eh, I am wasting my time though. No one wants to play a unique and original game anyway when there is phat loot and pwning noobs that needs done! Besides, that would be too much work for the developers. Unique would mean actually having to think rather than slapping a skin on some worn out code.
I a PvE game thinks it HAS to have PvP, put it on its own servers with its own rule set. Or, put the PvE on its own server with its own rule set. Then neither camp can ruin the other camps experience.
PvE fans who dont like PvP dont like competition. unless its vs retarded AI that doesnt move unless you attack it, PvE has no immersion what-so-ever. seriously you guys are expecting to raid cool places from the book and its not going to happen... you cant kill the lichking,sauron or any of the key bad guys... not even shelob because thats against the lore and puting them on a repop timer would be stupid shit.
with that said this game has extremely low content available for raiding when it comes to actual killable characters that existed in the books.
moving on to PvE questing... its the same in everygame i dont care what the DEVS tell you it will be the same in this one and from the E3 videos i watched i had to laugh. Same shit different game. they slapd a LOTR tag on it and now its back to Collect me 10 of these, or deliver this, or kill X ammount of Y..... formulas for timesink the
unfortunately i am a fan of the books and movies so im trying this game regardless. Its not like were saying limit pve content we just want some sort of PvP content added which it is. but in the future i would really like to see Isenguard and mordor expansions allowing players to play somewhat of a "DIfficult" mode making evil races playable.
bottom line is the people who want slow play - take your time PvE story mode ect are the ones yelling out and trying to limit PVP content. we dont do that to the pve people, and i cant understand why you wouldnt want that dimension added to the game specially when ur not forced to participate. but this had all been said before.
no, most pve fans who don't like pvp have played games were some high level ganker comes around and sets back their whole night of progress. If the system isn't in place to allow everyone to have the fun that they want to have, then it will loose some customers. I think there's more people who want to play than there are people who want to gank.
Most games have problems w/ storyline ermersion just cus few read all the lore of the game. Sometimes it's just too damn hard to read everything they throw at you.
But now you have a game that has it's entire lore already in the world. Having been read by millions of people. Then you make a game, and you can either use the RP value of the title, or you can make some arbitrarily made game that has little to do w/ the license. There's no reason to use LOTRO as a base for a new UO. Besides, I played UO for a few days and found myself getting robbed and killed by high levels to the point I didn't want to play anymore. So it happens.
I'm pretty sure Tolkien wouldn't want people leaving h is game w/ the feeling they just got ganked You do have to consider the owners of the intellectual property here - most high dollar titles will be careful of things put out using their title.
I still rest my case on not all MMO's are huge cus of PvP. Funny, all the top games ranked on this site have either no pvp - or some sort of organized pvp w/ the options for no pvp if desired. CoH at launch had no pvp - did well. FFXI only recently added some pvp action - was always making money. Eve online - well hell there's no way that could ever get the population that the LOTR series already has as a fanbase. Regardless of how good it's system is - it puts the avg. person to sleep.
* You can even add that by defining all popular games by pvp - then you are completely discounting the Oblivion fanbase. Considering that's a single player RPG. I guess all those people wouldn't buy into a PvE only game.
grumpy i feel you misunderstand the defination of PvP we want in this game. trust me i dont want a gankfest either... its all about Factions for example Good , Neutral, Evil .... good faction versus evil faction and players who wont want to get ganked or participate would be on the Neutral faction side. thats just one example of the many ways to create safety.
another way is like WoW, Contested Zones... or battleground instances, although i would perfer encouragement to PvP within the world.
another example of what most people want when it comes to PvP is Team-PvP with evil races playable this is a longshot and possibly could be years away and thats if it is added at all. The reason that the devs arnt doing it right now is due to the large detailed world and what they would have to do to get Mordor, and Isenguard in the game... it really cant be done unless explored with by expansion packs.
but with lore, Humans are weak in middle earth... many have lost faith in them including Aragorn so why would it be outrageous for a human to turn to darkness and join saurons forces or something along that line.
im sick of hearing tolkien would want this or its against the lore, in real life if you want you can kill anyone at anytime... its realism you could goto work 2morrow and shoot someone in the face but you wouldnt because of Consiquences... which is a big part of a PvP system aswell. The problem people are saying is PvP is in everygame ect ect, play darkfall or this and let us have this PvE only game fuck you and fuck that. this is the only Tolkien game and it should make all the fans happy not just you i dont care about the majority like i said a thosand times PVP doesnt effect you unless you let it, or the devs impliment a pure crap pvp system and unfortunately thats what happens nowadays. The devs want to appeal to a broader audience to sell more copies, with that said they need a form of PvP because it is growing bigger and bigger and slowly taken over PvE EQ fanatics. So what they do is throw in a last minute way to pvp and it ends up being retarded... NO game today has done PvP as good as Dark Age of Camelot and the realm vs realm system. you guys all say pvp has no place but 200 hobbit adventurers running around the shire questing and adventuring is not apart of the lore or what tolkien wanted in his vision of Middle Earth... RARE was it to see an hobbit out in the wild, and often shire looked down on it because they are a race of peace. with that said you PvE fuckers always pick and choose what you want to be against the lore and what is not.
and finally i still havent heard one response on my pvE arguemnet of wtf do u expect to raid.... u cant kill sauron, shelob,witchking, smog, black riders, ect because it would fuck the story up. so u guys want to fall back on questing and ur going to make evryone do the bland repetitive fomulatic quests because ur affraid to grow some balls and get competitive.
Turbine to just contact me and let me be director of pvp =p with my 10 years of experience in the MMO field ima pro at balancing PvE vs PvP content. sup. id do it for free hah
Sad how you start to make a good point but you ruin it with flaming. Sorry but I can't agree w/ you and refuse to discus any of your ideas as long as you can't keep yourself civil.
Just like you I'm kinda of sick of hearing the same pvp arguements in every game forum. I guess if every game in the mmorpg.com list have pvp that met your specifications then you'd be happy w/ every game being the same. I guess we don't need more than one game really at that point. We should jsut have all the games consolidate into one so we don't have any variety or choices.
bottom line is the people who want slow play - take your time PvE story mode ect are the ones yelling out and trying to limit PVP content. we dont do that to the pve people, and i cant understand why you wouldnt want that dimension added to the game specially when ur not forced to participate. but this had all been said before.
The problem is that at some point one of my characters will have a skill taken away or some new uber skill added just to make it a viable class in PvP. I am not PvP'ing. I am not on a PvP server. I am not going to any battlegrounds/arenas to even watch PvP, but I being FORCED to change my game style because of PvP. I may be wrong, but I have no recollection of any class being nerfed/buffed for PvE reason forcing PvP'ers to change their play style. If any developer can design a system that completely insulates the different play styles from the demands of the others then I am all for it.
P.S. Everyday life is enough competition for me and no game could or should be as demanding. Many people play these games to escape the violent, abusive, stress filled competition that is everyday life. Why on earth would we subject ourselves to the same in a game we pay to play?
P.S.S. No one can use Tolkien's lore to substantiate their arguments about anything in this game. Every other "Developers Diary" devours another lore cookie. By the time the game comes out there will nothing but a few broken cookies and some crumbs.
Characters should be balanced in PvE just as much for PvP. The great thing about a well implemented PvP system is if you do come home and dont feel like competing, or PvPing at all you dont have to. You can craft, PvE , Raid ect, thats my whole argument I and many others want the Option to its called "variety", just because your life is stressfull doesnt mean other peoples lives are so dont act like the game should be centered Around you alone. and you know what i find it very stressfull raiding, wiping at a boss for 2-3 hours, then finally killing it and what do you know, i get no satisfaction because its a computer controlled AI, and next time we go raid we KNOW exactly what it will do, and how to beat it thats the beauty of Player vs Player, Human mind vs Human mind, the ability to mix it up and be unpredictable every fight vs another player is a different experience.
- to grumpybear
The reason i started to flame is because you all See what you want to see as long as it benefits what you want in the game. same goes for the LORE, you make acceptions with what you want or would like, but when it comes to other people, mainly PvP oriented idears many of you fans scream AGAINST THE LORE on us. As for your logic on games included PvP you are just so off the mark it isnt funny, The majority of Games are PvE based bro, look at World of Warcraft, if you want quests, raids why dont you play that game its what it is all about. WoW has PvP yes but it contains Exactly what i am flaming against. A half-fast last second addition with a PvP system to appeal to a broader audience to sell more boxes. Its PvP is such a small portion of the game, you have to capture a flag lol come on now. Then Everquest 2 was* all based on PvE intil the high demand for PvP caught up with it 2-3 years after release. Now look what they did added PvP servers like WoW. So dont tell me all games are Based around PvP because that is bullshit. Eq2 and WoW alone are the 2 biggest MMO titles on the market and revolve around questing, raiding plus end-game PvE content. lastly the reason i make so many posts on the subject is the PvE fans are trying to make this game a EQ, WoW clone in the land of Middle Earth. which brings me back to this point no one wants to answer.
"and finally i still havent heard one response on my PvE arguement of what do u expect to raid...you cant kill sauron, shelob,witchking, smog, black riders, or any major villain of the story because it would destroy the original plot line or timeline. So PvE still has lots of quests!, to bad they will be an illusion of adding or contributing to the story and you know the quest wont actually matter because the story has already been told. your going to make everyone do the bland repetitive fomulatic quests because your afraid of a little "competitive" gameplay with other players."
The best bet would be to separate the two into pvp and pve servers.
For myself, I'm usually in a pve mood. I like to level and run around and get things done. When I'm in that mood, I get extremely irritated when a group comes by and ganks me. It ruins the game for me. Having pvp battlegrounds with a pve game is exactly what I like. It gives me the freedom to go run around solo without any stress of watching my back constantly.
There isn't a need to create separate factions and what not. If you want pvp all the time, roll on a pvp server. If you want security, roll pve. There is a big crowd for both playstyles.
Ok. Let's sum this up - This use to be argued to a fair extent on the vault boards way back when most of you didn't even know of the game, and when it was MEO(Middle-earth online), and the developers were sierra.
Without PvP, the game will be absolute rubbish, trash, etc.
Not only that, it goes against the complete spirit of what Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit, Silmarillon, etc. were about. What Tolkiens world was about - Good Vs. Evil.
The fight within personal characters, like Gollum, ending up killing his own cousin. Men fought amongst themselves. Elves even had a couple scourges. The whole history of middle-earth was filled full of bloodshed.
Within the Great War of the Third Age, it was clearly obvious that many men turned to Sauron - Or even then, there was the Easterlings, and the Haradim(sp?) that were innately allied with the forces of Sauron.
This game without PvP=Farce.
Gave up on this game LONG ago. Looks like another sham by Turbine. Such a shame, the world of middle earth had such potential...
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
WuduLarch, you make a good point. I watched all my characters I created in CoH get turned into something very much different when Issue 5 game out. That was right about when I canceled my subscription. Something about having to use up all my respecs to make all my characters playable again was just too much effort.
I work all day long. I don't come home to spend lots more effort. I need to save some of that energy for my wife. I guess if I had no job, no woman, no bills to pay - I'd be gaming 24/7 and I'd really need that something different that xas_ seems so adamant about.
I'm not really an all about PvE kinda guy, but when people can't chat in a forum w/out using profanity - I won't speak directly w/ that person. xas_ has like 13 posts. In no way should someone loose complete control of their emotions on an internet forum w/in 13 posts.
Brings up that argueing on the internet saying that comes up in every forum. Usually in this very topic which finds its way into every game forum, even SoR.
If I want to really be a man and use my uber leet micro skillz again some kids, I play BF2 or CSS. Not some role playing fantasy game.
PS - don't use the lore as a rationalization that Tolkiens world was a PVP based one if you don't want others to use it in their arguements. You can't go calling the kettle black and not get called on it. Secondly, CoH has it's raid where you fight Hamidon. The hero's don't actually kill hamidon - they just push him back into the earth. He comes back. That is in the lore already where he was defeated and pushed back. He came back. they could easily raid sauron in the game. We'd only be successful at pushing him back and hurting him so he'd have to gather energy to come back. There I spoke directly to xas_, try and keep your end civil and we will too. Hate to see you get banned before your 20th post cus you couldn't control your hands.
Characters should be balanced in PvE just as much for PvP.
"and finally i still havent heard one response on my PvE arguement of what do u expect to raid...you cant kill sauron, shelob,witchking, smog, black riders, or any major villain of the story because it would destroy the original plot line or timeline. So PvE still has lots of quests!, to bad they will be an illusion of adding or contributing to the story and you know the quest wont actually matter because the story has already been told. your going to make everyone do the bland repetitive fomulatic quests because your afraid of a little "competitive" gameplay with other players."
Characters should not be balanced. Each character should fill a roll within game world or group. If every class is balanced, why have different classes? A healing class should not be able to win a duel against a tank class. Look, I really don't have an issue with PvP per-say, what I have issue with is having to rebuild my character every time the classes are re-balanced for the sake of PvP. My suggestion is to completely separate the to play-styles. Different servers, different rules and nary the twain shall meet.
You are right that PvP thrown in at the last minute is usually a farce. When I have the urge to PvP, I play a game designed for it. (My choice? WWII Online. I can not recall anyone on the WWII:OL forums demanding a PvE aspect be added to that game.) From the time Turbine took over the game until a couple months ago, LotRO had been designed as a PvE game. Adding PvP now as an afterthought to sell more boxes is a mistake.
In answer to you question, I don't raid in the sense of spending between 4 and 8 hours to join 30 or 40 other people to attack some uber boss for the slim chance to gain some shiny uber loot to show off to others. I do enjoy grouping with a few friends and tackling some quests. No, you cannot and should not be able to attack and kill the named characters from the book. Like I stated earlier, the lore cookie jar is all but empty anyway. They can add some semi-uber bosses to provide a nice challenge for those who want it.
One question back to you. How does PvP add or contribute to the story in a non-illusory way that PvE can't?
No, I don't want to make every one play my "bland repetitive formulatic quests". What I want is for my "bland repetitive formulatic quest" to be left unmolested be the demands of those not interested in "bland repetitive formulatic quests".While you may feel that "competitive gameplay" against other people is the best way to have fun, many of us get just as much satisfaction out of cooperative game-play with other people.
-wudu You said "Characters should not be balanced. Each character should fill a roll within game world or group"
Why is that not geared towards PvP too? If the game has clear defined class roles like Guardian "tank" Champion "primary melee dps" and classes like Burglar and captain having "support" skills to compensate of a little less damage then say the champions no one has a reason to complain. moving on to Minstrel as clearly the group buff/healer. This game is perfect for PvP because the roles are so obvious... why would you need to nerf any classes? the only 2 classes i see being questionable is Loremaster and Hunter. But i must say games should never be Balanced around 1v1 PvP. What many players want when we say PvP please, is a Team PvP system hence why we want Good Vs Evil. Like you, we love to group up with other players cooperative style, but we like to compete with our group vs another group of real players.
In the previous games thier has been a ridiculous ammounts of classes and LOTRO has the biggest advantage ever because of the lack of caster classes and hybrids. Caster Vs Melee, is the most popular complain of balance issues. Hybrid Abilities and damage vs PURE classes is the other. With this said LOTRO set up is so perfect for competetive PvP weither it is instance battlegrounds, or seperate servers. but i guess we just disagree completly on the matter of Class Balance overall, which is ok. I also feel like ur basing this opinion based on a WoW scenerio, example Shadow Priests dps vs Mages, or Druid heals vs Priest heals... ect this is a big reason i quit that game is because NO CLASS had definition... everyclass could be Dps and thats retarded imo. specially in pvp. In LOTRO if ur a guardian and complain because ur not doing as much damage as the champion you are clueless because guardians will have more hitpoints and higher AF while compinsating for a little less damage, champs will have less armor factor but more damage. Basic rule of Survivibility to Damage.
- grumpy bear
i feel like your trying to team up against me with wudu but thats ok... You say im using lore against you, it isnt true at all im basically saying alot of PvE fans say "Evil races dont have free will, so why should you be able to controll them" as an ANTI-PVP statement revolving around Lore as its weapon. I simply flipd it around and said you can pick and choose all day, and i feel the example i gave with 200 hobbits running around the shire adventuring was a very good example to how some PvE aspects of the game can be against the lore too.
Now im not saying take out all quests because its a waste of time ect, im saying alot of players are veterans and questing in this game is most likely going to be very similuar to no difference to say all WoW's quests.
but anyways idont feel like repeating myself again, the whole point of my posts are to create an awareness that with a well implentmented PvP system Everyone gets what they want and it just add more variety to gameplay.
These people are simply a very vocal minority, and a small one at that. PvPers are about 5% of any MMORPG's population (unless of course the game is 100% PvP). They just shout more than other people.
This site is filled with PvP fans mostly, EVE fans in particuliar.
PvP is an important aspect in a MMO, but IMO it is the 3rd most popular aspect. The first is PvE grouping, the second is PvE soloing. Of course, this is my opinion and I might be wrong, Soloing might be #1, but it please me to believe it is grouping that is #1.
Beery: You underestimate the PvP community, it is of a decent size, maybe as much as half of the PvE grouping community, which is not bad at all. 5% is for the raiding community, which has nothing to do with PvP! And 5% is extremely generous. I can judge easily from the peoples I know in RL, raiders are scarses...very scarses! And they all are extremely nasty persons with various social issues if you consider these who are happy that raiding is been enforced. Nice raiders do exist, but they are a rare breed! You are more likely to find a good drow than a nice raider.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
xas_, we agree more than you think. Were I to PvP, I would want to do group PvP. However, the vast majority of PvP'ers I have dealt with are of the one-on-one variety. Group PvP would seem to need the same class diversification that good PvE requires. IF group PvP'ers were the majority AND the PvP was restricted to; on consent only/PvP only servers/arenas (Read, "no ganking") AND Turbine could keep away from trying to balance classes then I personally would not have a problem with PvP. Unfortunately, that has not been my experience. EQ had something like 20+ PvE servers and like 6 PvP servers. When the PvP crowd cried about how their (insert class) was getting "pwned" by (insert class), SOE would swing the nerf bat on ALL the servers. 100% of the player base suffered for the 20% that complained.
My whole point with PvP has always been that it should not adversely effect the core game, which in LotRO happens to be PvE.
xas_, do you play Guild Wars? There is no raiding that I am aware of, but my son loves it and he is a die-hard PvP'er.
I have tried Guild Wars on many different occasions and find myself losing interests to quickly, mainly because of its Diablo2 like style, its really not an MMO imo.
Now im not anti-raiding, or Anti-PvE. I love grouping with other players to level but the problem i have is End-Game. when i hit lvl cap i shift to PVP mode. i find it pointless to PvE anymore when i reach this state, unless its a raid. Honesty what can you do when you log into the game when your Capd? farm, no thanks... quest, why? i can just get gear from raiding. Raids, are ok but not a replacement timesink. if pvp isnt in an MMO i hit lvl cap and i find myself bored to death.
if anyone played DAOC they would know where im coming from because that game was set up perfect. To bad it was ruined by Trails of Atlantis though.
So in a broad sense, we all want he same thing. LotRO will have PvP. Trubine has stated that point blank. PvE'ers want it implimentent well enough that it doesn't effect the PvE aspect (nor attract the "Uber-leetspeaking-pwners from hell). PvP'ers want it impimented well enough that it is fun and challenging. If there is going to be PvP, we both want well implimented PvP.
As for reaching the cap and end-game. As I am a casual gamer, I have only reached the cap on one game and it was a sandbox style that didn't really require an "end-game". We made it up ourselves. (I did reach the original cap in EQ but I am not much of a raider so I didn't keep up with it as they boosted it up.)
I like a bit of both in my games, but i really don't like the way PvP is implemented in some games. Sometimes I just want to relax and de-stress from work, and I don't think getting killed 15 times by some jack-hole who has nothing better to do, helps me de-stress. Personally, i think DAoC had it right with thier RvR system that lets you go to whole zones to PvP in till your hearts content, and keeps the "main" pve zones, griefer free (for the most part). Also, if you feel like pveing in the pvp zone, you can. Anyhow, if they do implement PvP into LotRO, hopefully its well planned out from the beginning, and not designed to let others ruin another players, or group of playersk, day.
So what is it? WOW is succeeding because of PVP. Give me a break. A small minority of the player base there participates in PVP at all, and it was the PVE game from the beginning that caused that game to break records. I no longer play it because the endgame does not suit my playstyle. It succeeded and continues to succeed becaue of the PVE component 1-60 which makes up most of the player base.
I do not want this game to be a "thrill" where I am constantly checking my back to make sure some guy isn't sneaking up behind me to gank me. If that gets your rocks off, go find another game, and don't try to morph this game into it. This game will draw in more people if it focuses on pve content, an expansive world and fostering a strong community. If it succumbs to the whining pvp crowd, it will be making a mistake (IMHO of course)
Comments
People that like PvP will want it in every game. The reasons are almost always the same. More interaction, more thrill, better opponents, less of the same grind. While those are laudable reasons, reality is usually far from that. Most PvP I've encountered doesn't make the game any more fun. If it's free form (aka original UO) then it turns into a gank fest. WoW does it a bit better but you still get overgeared max level characters harrassing greys. Is that really a challenge? Does making it so I have to play a stealth character so I can level in peace make it better for me? DAoC created specific PvP servers that had open PvP and what happened? People flocked to them for a while then they nearly died out and had to be consolidated. It's no fun creating a new toon on servers with max level players coming around and ganking everyone.
For me, I only PvE. I have no problem finding fun in doing so. Every game I've played, from UO to WoW, has had pleanty for me to do and see without needing to resort to killing other players. Sure, grinding the same mobs, quests, etc. can get dull but I have enough guild members with me to make it more enjoyable. I have no problem with Duels, PvP instances, etc. but world-wide PvP needs to be contained to specific servers so those people that want it can do it and the rest of us can enjoy a world without the problems it has. If the developer doesn't want to devote the time to making a different ruleset, fine by me.
PvP is the most important part of an MMORPG, and if an MMO doesnt even have PvP at launch, then I don't bother buying it. Everquest is a perfect example, and I am proud to say that Ultima Online was my first real MMORPG. Why bother playing in an MMO if all you're going to do is kill computer controlled creatures all day? If that's what you want to do, go play .hack or the regular Final Fantasy games. Anyone who thinks that freeform PvP is a bad thing for a game is sorely mistaken. Most of you probably hate PvP because you've played games that implement it terribly (WoW). Anyone who played UO (actually played, not farmed) for a good amount of time knows the importance of PvP. PvP keeps games alive long after players have finished the PvE content. The only reason a game like WoW, which has terrible PvP, is still going is because they keep adding new instances and people keep mindlessly playing them.
we are all MMO veterans by now, give or take a few we have most likely tried EQ2, WoW, DaoC and have experienced questing in those games it will be the same old thing in LOTRO.. but in tolkiens world... even EQ2 had to add pvp 1-2 years later because of the demand. and now vanguard has announced it to. the beauty of PvP is you dont have to participate in it if you dont want to = thier are always ways to keep players whom dont want to pvp safe. so why bitch about pvp? you just fuck other people out of extra content.
last but not least the reason devs havent set up the game like WoW alliance vs horde evil vs good style is because tolkiens world is to big... it would take them realistcally another 2-3 years if they wanted to add mordor and isenguard think of all the cities that would have to be added and land from the shire to mordor... unless u want them to pull a SWG with stupid terrain generated lands with nothing to see or do outside of towns, we have to be patient for PvP and prob wait till expansions fill in the gaps.
PvP should be a side note in this game. LotR:OL is an MMO"RPG" not an "MMOFPS". I can count on one hand the number of people that have ganked me while they were role-playing. Every other time it has been some "leet" speaking low-life that spends 14-18 hours a day making peoples lives miserable for his own amusement. At least in a PvE environment I can /ignore idiots without ending up dead. Just because I have a life outside of a game and can't spend 5-10 hours raiding several times a week for the best equipment to defend myself, should not mean that I can not have an enjoyable experience when I wish to play. Can any PvP'er name one time when a PvE'er has ruined their day in a game.
Secondly, why does the entire game have to be changed to allow a minority of players to play the game the way THEY want to at the expense of the majority? What am I talking about? Balancing Why is it deemed acceptable that a support class should be able to take a tank class in a fight? Why should any class be nerfed or buffed to make it even with another class. If you HAVE to PvP, pick a class that is DESIGNED to PvP. If you want to be a healer, face up that you won't be PvP champion!
If any game game maker decides to make a PvP game, GREAT!!! I am all for it! I won't play it, but there is a good following that will and I am happy for them. I swear and promise that I won't go troling the PvP games forums whining that there is no PvE, and stating that the game will fail without PvE. If you are going to make a PvE game, make a PvE game and leave it a PvE game. No one can please everyone all the time. Pick a target audience and stick with it. These games loose more people by switching horses in mid-stream than they would if they had just followed through with what they had started. (See SWG) Look, if Turbine had said, "Hey all! We are making this new game called Lord or the Rings: On-line PvP!" I would have looked at it and decided it wasn't for me and move on. What I am upset about is that we were promised x, y and z but are ending up with b and s. Just another same old same old MMORPG but with Tolkien (Jackson for all the non-readers) wrapped around it.
Eh, I am wasting my time though. No one wants to play a unique and original game anyway when there is phat loot and pwning noobs that needs done! Besides, that would be too much work for the developers. Unique would mean actually having to think rather than slapping a skin on some worn out code.
I a PvE game thinks it HAS to have PvP, put it on its own servers with its own rule set. Or, put the PvE on its own server with its own rule set. Then neither camp can ruin the other camps experience.
/rant off
with that said this game has extremely low content available for raiding when it comes to actual killable characters that existed in the books.
moving on to PvE questing... its the same in everygame i dont care what the DEVS tell you it will be the same in this one and from the E3 videos i watched i had to laugh. Same shit different game. they slapd a LOTR tag on it and now its back to Collect me 10 of these, or deliver this, or kill X ammount of Y..... formulas for timesink the
unfortunately i am a fan of the books and movies so im trying this game regardless. Its not like were saying limit pve content we just want some sort of PvP content added which it is. but in the future i would really like to see Isenguard and mordor expansions allowing players to play somewhat of a "DIfficult" mode making evil races playable.
bottom line is the people who want slow play - take your time PvE story mode ect are the ones yelling out and trying to limit PVP content. we dont do that to the pve people, and i cant understand why you wouldnt want that dimension added to the game specially when ur not forced to participate. but this had all been said before.
i would be down for a PVP and PVE servers
no, most pve fans who don't like pvp have played games were some high level ganker comes around and sets back their whole night of progress. If the system isn't in place to allow everyone to have the fun that they want to have, then it will loose some customers. I think there's more people who want to play than there are people who want to gank.
Most games have problems w/ storyline ermersion just cus few read all the lore of the game. Sometimes it's just too damn hard to read everything they throw at you.
But now you have a game that has it's entire lore already in the world. Having been read by millions of people. Then you make a game, and you can either use the RP value of the title, or you can make some arbitrarily made game that has little to do w/ the license. There's no reason to use LOTRO as a base for a new UO. Besides, I played UO for a few days and found myself getting robbed and killed by high levels to the point I didn't want to play anymore. So it happens.
I'm pretty sure Tolkien wouldn't want people leaving h is game w/ the feeling they just got ganked You do have to consider the owners of the intellectual property here - most high dollar titles will be careful of things put out using their title.
I still rest my case on not all MMO's are huge cus of PvP. Funny, all the top games ranked on this site have either no pvp - or some sort of organized pvp w/ the options for no pvp if desired. CoH at launch had no pvp - did well. FFXI only recently added some pvp action - was always making money. Eve online - well hell there's no way that could ever get the population that the LOTR series already has as a fanbase. Regardless of how good it's system is - it puts the avg. person to sleep.
* You can even add that by defining all popular games by pvp - then you are completely discounting the Oblivion fanbase. Considering that's a single player RPG. I guess all those people wouldn't buy into a PvE only game.
another way is like WoW, Contested Zones... or battleground instances, although i would perfer encouragement to PvP within the world.
another example of what most people want when it comes to PvP is Team-PvP with evil races playable this is a longshot and possibly could be years away and thats if it is added at all. The reason that the devs arnt doing it right now is due to the large detailed world and what they would have to do to get Mordor, and Isenguard in the game... it really cant be done unless explored with by expansion packs.
but with lore, Humans are weak in middle earth... many have lost faith in them including Aragorn so why would it be outrageous for a human to turn to darkness and join saurons forces or something along that line.
im sick of hearing tolkien would want this or its against the lore, in real life if you want you can kill anyone at anytime... its realism you could goto work 2morrow and shoot someone in the face but you wouldnt because of Consiquences... which is a big part of a PvP system aswell. The problem people are saying is PvP is in everygame ect ect, play darkfall or this and let us have this PvE only game fuck you and fuck that. this is the only Tolkien game and it should make all the fans happy not just you i dont care about the majority like i said a thosand times PVP doesnt effect you unless you let it, or the devs impliment a pure crap pvp system and unfortunately thats what happens nowadays. The devs want to appeal to a broader audience to sell more copies, with that said they need a form of PvP because it is growing bigger and bigger and slowly taken over PvE EQ fanatics.
So what they do is throw in a last minute way to pvp and it ends up being retarded... NO game today has done PvP as good as Dark Age of Camelot and the realm vs realm system. you guys all say pvp has no place but 200 hobbit adventurers running around the shire questing and adventuring is not apart of the lore or what tolkien wanted in his vision of Middle Earth... RARE was it to see an hobbit out in the wild, and often shire looked down on it because they are a race of peace. with that said you PvE fuckers always pick and choose what you want to be against the lore and what is not.
and finally i still havent heard one response on my pvE arguemnet of wtf do u expect to raid.... u cant kill sauron, shelob,witchking, smog, black riders, ect because it would fuck the story up. so u guys want to fall back on questing and ur going to make evryone do the bland repetitive fomulatic quests because ur affraid to grow some balls and get competitive.
Turbine to just contact me and let me be director of pvp =p with my 10 years of experience in the MMO field ima pro at balancing PvE vs PvP content. sup. id do it for free hah
Just like you I'm kinda of sick of hearing the same pvp arguements in every game forum. I guess if every game in the mmorpg.com list have pvp that met your specifications then you'd be happy w/ every game being the same. I guess we don't need more than one game really at that point. We should jsut have all the games consolidate into one so we don't have any variety or choices.
The problem is that at some point one of my characters will have a skill taken away or some new uber skill added just to make it a viable class in PvP. I am not PvP'ing. I am not on a PvP server. I am not going to any battlegrounds/arenas to even watch PvP, but I being FORCED to change my game style because of PvP. I may be wrong, but I have no recollection of any class being nerfed/buffed for PvE reason forcing PvP'ers to change their play style. If any developer can design a system that completely insulates the different play styles from the demands of the others then I am all for it.
P.S. Everyday life is enough competition for me and no game could or should be as demanding. Many people play these games to escape the violent, abusive, stress filled competition that is everyday life. Why on earth would we subject ourselves to the same in a game we pay to play?
P.S.S. No one can use Tolkien's lore to substantiate their arguments about anything in this game. Every other "Developers Diary" devours another lore cookie. By the time the game comes out there will nothing but a few broken cookies and some crumbs.
Characters should be balanced in PvE just as much for PvP.
The great thing about a well implemented PvP system is if you do come home and dont feel like competing, or PvPing at all you dont have to. You can craft, PvE , Raid ect, thats my whole argument I and many others want the Option to its called "variety", just because your life is stressfull doesnt mean other peoples lives are so dont act like the game should be centered Around you alone. and you know what i find it very stressfull raiding, wiping at a boss for 2-3 hours, then finally killing it and what do you know, i get no satisfaction because its a computer controlled AI, and next time we go raid we KNOW exactly what it will do, and how to beat it thats the beauty of Player vs Player, Human mind vs Human mind, the ability to mix it up and be unpredictable every fight vs another player is a different experience.
- to grumpybear
The reason i started to flame is because you all See what you want to see as long as it benefits what you want in the game. same goes for the LORE, you make acceptions with what you want or would like, but when it comes to other people, mainly PvP oriented idears many of you fans scream AGAINST THE LORE on us. As for your logic on games included PvP you are just so off the mark it isnt funny, The majority of Games are PvE based bro, look at World of Warcraft, if you want quests, raids why dont you play that game its what it is all about. WoW has PvP yes but it contains Exactly what i am flaming against. A half-fast last second addition with a PvP system to appeal to a broader audience to sell more boxes. Its PvP is such a small portion of the game, you have to capture a flag lol come on now. Then Everquest 2 was* all based on PvE intil the high demand for PvP caught up with it 2-3 years after release. Now look what they did added PvP servers like WoW. So dont tell me all games are Based around PvP because that is bullshit. Eq2 and WoW alone are the 2 biggest MMO titles on the market and revolve around questing, raiding plus end-game PvE content. lastly the reason i make so many posts on the subject is the PvE fans are trying to make this game a EQ, WoW clone in the land of Middle Earth.
which brings me back to this point no one wants to answer.
"and finally i still havent heard one response on my PvE arguement of what do u expect to raid...you cant kill sauron, shelob,witchking, smog,
black riders, or any major villain of the story because it would destroy the original plot line or timeline. So PvE still has lots of quests!, to bad they will be an illusion of adding or contributing to the story and you know the quest wont actually matter because the story has already been told. your going to make everyone do the bland
repetitive fomulatic quests because your afraid of a little "competitive" gameplay with other players."
The best bet would be to separate the two into pvp and pve servers.
For myself, I'm usually in a pve mood. I like to level and run around and get things done. When I'm in that mood, I get extremely irritated when a group comes by and ganks me. It ruins the game for me. Having pvp battlegrounds with a pve game is exactly what I like. It gives me the freedom to go run around solo without any stress of watching my back constantly.
There isn't a need to create separate factions and what not. If you want pvp all the time, roll on a pvp server. If you want security, roll pve. There is a big crowd for both playstyles.
people want pvp play because---
it expands the game in a way PVE cant- extends the life of the game and makes it a better investment for your time.
it adds a challenge
ai is designed to mimic human behavior- thus it will never be as clever, intuitive, or stupid as a human can be
--people who believe in abstinence are unsurprisingly also some of the ugliest most sexually undesired people in the world.--
Ok. Let's sum this up - This use to be argued to a fair extent on the vault boards way back when most of you didn't even know of the game, and when it was MEO(Middle-earth online), and the developers were sierra.
Without PvP, the game will be absolute rubbish, trash, etc.
Not only that, it goes against the complete spirit of what Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit, Silmarillon, etc. were about. What Tolkiens world was about - Good Vs. Evil.
The fight within personal characters, like Gollum, ending up killing his own cousin. Men fought amongst themselves. Elves even had a couple scourges. The whole history of middle-earth was filled full of bloodshed.
Within the Great War of the Third Age, it was clearly obvious that many men turned to Sauron - Or even then, there was the Easterlings, and the Haradim(sp?) that were innately allied with the forces of Sauron.
This game without PvP=Farce.
Gave up on this game LONG ago. Looks like another sham by Turbine. Such a shame, the world of middle earth had such potential...
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
WuduLarch, you make a good point. I watched all my characters I created in CoH get turned into something very much different when Issue 5 game out. That was right about when I canceled my subscription. Something about having to use up all my respecs to make all my characters playable again was just too much effort.
I work all day long. I don't come home to spend lots more effort. I need to save some of that energy for my wife. I guess if I had no job, no woman, no bills to pay - I'd be gaming 24/7 and I'd really need that something different that xas_ seems so adamant about.
I'm not really an all about PvE kinda guy, but when people can't chat in a forum w/out using profanity - I won't speak directly w/ that person. xas_ has like 13 posts. In no way should someone loose complete control of their emotions on an internet forum w/in 13 posts.
Brings up that argueing on the internet saying that comes up in every forum. Usually in this very topic which finds its way into every game forum, even SoR.
If I want to really be a man and use my uber leet micro skillz again some kids, I play BF2 or CSS. Not some role playing fantasy game.
PS - don't use the lore as a rationalization that Tolkiens world was a PVP based one if you don't want others to use it in their arguements. You can't go calling the kettle black and not get called on it. Secondly, CoH has it's raid where you fight Hamidon. The hero's don't actually kill hamidon - they just push him back into the earth. He comes back. That is in the lore already where he was defeated and pushed back. He came back. they could easily raid sauron in the game. We'd only be successful at pushing him back and hurting him so he'd have to gather energy to come back. There I spoke directly to xas_, try and keep your end civil and we will too. Hate to see you get banned before your 20th post cus you couldn't control your hands.
Characters should not be balanced. Each character should fill a roll within game world or group. If every class is balanced, why have different classes? A healing class should not be able to win a duel against a tank class. Look, I really don't have an issue with PvP per-say, what I have issue with is having to rebuild my character every time the classes are re-balanced for the sake of PvP. My suggestion is to completely separate the to play-styles. Different servers, different rules and nary the twain shall meet.
You are right that PvP thrown in at the last minute is usually a farce. When I have the urge to PvP, I play a game designed for it. (My choice? WWII Online. I can not recall anyone on the WWII:OL forums demanding a PvE aspect be added to that game.) From the time Turbine took over the game until a couple months ago, LotRO had been designed as a PvE game. Adding PvP now as an afterthought to sell more boxes is a mistake.
In answer to you question, I don't raid in the sense of spending between 4 and 8 hours to join 30 or 40 other people to attack some uber boss for the slim chance to gain some shiny uber loot to show off to others. I do enjoy grouping with a few friends and tackling some quests. No, you cannot and should not be able to attack and kill the named characters from the book. Like I stated earlier, the lore cookie jar is all but empty anyway. They can add some semi-uber bosses to provide a nice challenge for those who want it.
One question back to you. How does PvP add or contribute to the story in a non-illusory way that PvE can't?
No, I don't want to make every one play my "bland repetitive formulatic quests". What I want is for my "bland repetitive formulatic quest" to be left unmolested be the demands of those not interested in "bland repetitive formulatic quests".While you may feel that "competitive gameplay" against other people is the best way to have fun, many of us get just as much satisfaction out of cooperative game-play with other people.
Why is that not geared towards PvP too? If the game has clear defined class roles like Guardian "tank" Champion "primary melee dps" and classes like Burglar and captain having "support" skills to compensate of a little less damage then say the champions no one has a reason to complain. moving on to Minstrel as clearly the group buff/healer. This game is perfect for PvP because the roles are so obvious... why would you need to nerf any classes? the only 2 classes i see being questionable is Loremaster and Hunter. But i must say games should never be Balanced around 1v1 PvP. What many players want when we say PvP please, is a Team PvP system hence why we want Good Vs Evil. Like you, we love to group up with other players cooperative style, but we like to compete with our group vs another group of real players.
In the previous games thier has been a ridiculous ammounts of classes and LOTRO has the biggest advantage ever because of the lack of caster classes and hybrids. Caster Vs Melee, is the most popular complain of balance issues. Hybrid Abilities and damage vs PURE classes is the other. With this said LOTRO set up is so perfect for competetive PvP weither it is instance battlegrounds, or seperate servers. but i guess we just disagree completly on the matter of Class Balance overall, which is ok. I also feel like ur basing this opinion based on a WoW scenerio, example Shadow Priests dps vs Mages, or Druid heals vs Priest heals... ect this is a big reason i quit that game is because NO CLASS had definition... everyclass could be Dps and thats retarded imo. specially in pvp. In LOTRO if ur a guardian and complain because ur not doing as much damage as the champion you are clueless because guardians will have more hitpoints and higher AF while compinsating for a little less damage, champs will have less armor factor but more damage. Basic rule of Survivibility to Damage.
- grumpy bear
i feel like your trying to team up against me with wudu but thats ok... You say im using lore against you, it isnt true at all im basically saying alot of PvE fans say "Evil races dont have free will, so why should you be able to controll them" as an ANTI-PVP statement revolving around Lore as its weapon. I simply flipd it around and said you can pick and choose all day, and i feel the example i gave with 200 hobbits running around the shire adventuring was a very good example to how some PvE aspects of the game can be against the lore too.
Now im not saying take out all quests because its a waste of time ect, im saying alot of players are veterans and questing in this game is most likely going to be very similuar to no difference to say all WoW's quests.
but anyways idont feel like repeating myself again, the whole point of my posts are to create an awareness that with a well implentmented PvP system Everyone gets what they want and it just add more variety to gameplay.
This site is filled with PvP fans mostly, EVE fans in particuliar.
PvP is an important aspect in a MMO, but IMO it is the 3rd most popular aspect. The first is PvE grouping, the second is PvE soloing. Of course, this is my opinion and I might be wrong, Soloing might be #1, but it please me to believe it is grouping that is #1.
Beery: You underestimate the PvP community, it is of a decent size, maybe as much as half of the PvE grouping community, which is not bad at all. 5% is for the raiding community, which has nothing to do with PvP!
And 5% is extremely generous. I can judge easily from the peoples I know in RL, raiders are scarses...very scarses! And they all are extremely nasty persons with various social issues if you consider these who are happy that raiding is been enforced. Nice raiders do exist, but they are a rare breed! You are more likely to find a good drow than a nice raider. 
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
xas_, we agree more than you think. Were I to PvP, I would want to do group PvP. However, the vast majority of PvP'ers I have dealt with are of the one-on-one variety. Group PvP would seem to need the same class diversification that good PvE requires. IF group PvP'ers were the majority AND the PvP was restricted to; on consent only/PvP only servers/arenas (Read, "no ganking") AND Turbine could keep away from trying to balance classes then I personally would not have a problem with PvP. Unfortunately, that has not been my experience. EQ had something like 20+ PvE servers and like 6 PvP servers. When the PvP crowd cried about how their (insert class) was getting "pwned" by (insert class), SOE would swing the nerf bat on ALL the servers. 100% of the player base suffered for the 20% that complained.
My whole point with PvP has always been that it should not adversely effect the core game, which in LotRO happens to be PvE.
xas_, do you play Guild Wars? There is no raiding that I am aware of, but my son loves it and he is a die-hard PvP'er.
Now im not anti-raiding, or Anti-PvE. I love grouping with other players to level but the problem i have is End-Game. when i hit lvl cap i shift to PVP mode.
i find it pointless to PvE anymore when i reach this state, unless its a raid. Honesty what can you do when you log into the game when your Capd? farm, no thanks... quest, why? i can just get gear from raiding.
Raids, are ok but not a replacement timesink. if pvp isnt in an MMO i hit lvl cap and i find myself bored to death.
if anyone played DAOC they would know where im coming from because that game was set up perfect. To bad it was ruined by Trails of Atlantis though.
So in a broad sense, we all want he same thing. LotRO will have PvP. Trubine has stated that point blank. PvE'ers want it implimentent well enough that it doesn't effect the PvE aspect (nor attract the "Uber-leetspeaking-pwners from hell). PvP'ers want it impimented well enough that it is fun and challenging. If there is going to be PvP, we both want well implimented PvP.
As for reaching the cap and end-game. As I am a casual gamer, I have only reached the cap on one game and it was a sandbox style that didn't really require an "end-game". We made it up ourselves. (I did reach the original cap in EQ but I am not much of a raider so I didn't keep up with it as they boosted it up.)
So what is it? WOW is succeeding because of PVP. Give me a break. A small minority of the player base there participates in PVP at all, and it was the PVE game from the beginning that caused that game to break records. I no longer play it because the endgame does not suit my playstyle. It succeeded and continues to succeed becaue of the PVE component 1-60 which makes up most of the player base.
I do not want this game to be a "thrill" where I am constantly checking my back to make sure some guy isn't sneaking up behind me to gank me. If that gets your rocks off, go find another game, and don't try to morph this game into it. This game will draw in more people if it focuses on pve content, an expansive world and fostering a strong community. If it succumbs to the whining pvp crowd, it will be making a mistake (IMHO of course)