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What do raid-haters expect as an "end game"
fizzle322
Member Posts: 723
End game by definition is gonna be a huge grind. What can they possibly give you to make you happy?
Solo content can't last forever, somebody has to write that content, and we tear through solo content so quickly, how can they possibly create it fast enough?
Face it, at 60 the game becomes raiding, pvp, epic mount grinding, tradeskill maxing, and that's pretty much the extent to which you can progress.
I've had characters to 50+ but I never hit 60 because I knew there was nothing to do, so I just keep rerolling a different class on a new server and leveling it up.
This time I am taking my mage to 60, the character feels right, first thing at 60 will be to gring my epic mount, after that grind up the tradeskills, finally divide my time between raiding and battlegrounds.
Theres really nothing else that Blizzard can do for you, they are working on an expansion, until that comes out there is nothing they can do to make you happy.
Comments
a decent PvP system that still allows characters to have a life outside of the game. and more than 3 freaking maps. I got kinda burned out on WoW for a while after so much rep/honor grinding, got to rank 11, Exalted with AV, and WSG and really just played myself sick of it all. The honor system needs a huge overhaul.
Basically what non-raiders like myself want is something that will never happen, a end-game where time invested doesn't equal power.
bah double post
What people would like to see is a more skill based PvP system a way for people that can't get certain characters into a raid guild to get good items that allows them to at least keep up in some sense. The problem is the gear gap is huge and with the way things are going people in tier 3 are just gonna be blowing people away with one shot hits etc. Non raiders want to be able to enjoy the non raid parts of the game without having to raid such as pvp etc.
Whats the difference between a warrior with Arc Reaper vs a warrior with some axe he gets from a Raid, the raid axe might have a little better stats, but either way you're gonna get hit for big numbers, if one does 50 or 100 hp more per swing, in the grand scheme of things that changes nothing. If you were gonna die in 4 swings maybe you die in 3 swings, I don't really see that as "over the top."
ALso, what alot of players think of as "skill" isn't.
RPG's don't take sklill, thats the whole point of RPG.
WoW takes skill the same way Diablo2 takes skill. It doesn't. There is no skill involved. Its equipment and talents vs equipment and talents.
If anything Blizzard made the Rogue class TOO much fun, all the pvp servers used to be like 50 percent Rogues, they would camp elevators and flight masters and everything else.
Thats why world pvp died, it was a roguefest.
Now its all battleground pvp, and rogues are weaker there, they always whinin about warriors in uber gear, but they never take into account that theres not enough good priests and warriors in the game, while rogues and hunters are a dime a dozen.
Whats the difference between a warrior with Arc Reaper vs a warrior with some axe he gets from a Raid, the raid axe might have a little better stats, but either way you're gonna get hit for big numbers, if one does 50 or 100 hp more per swing, in the grand scheme of things that changes nothing. If you were gonna die in 4 swings maybe you die in 3 swings, I don't really see that as "over the top."
ALso, what alot of players think of as "skill" isn't.
RPG's don't take sklill, thats the whole point of RPG.
WoW takes skill the same way Diablo2 takes skill. It doesn't. There is no skill involved. Its equipment and talents vs equipment and talents.
This is a rank 14 warrior
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-285572967686627023
Just imagaine what a fully deck out raider with the latests weapons can do..
Whats the difference between a warrior with Arc Reaper vs a warrior with some axe he gets from a Raid, the raid axe might have a little better stats, but either way you're gonna get hit for big numbers, if one does 50 or 100 hp more per swing, in the grand scheme of things that changes nothing. If you were gonna die in 4 swings maybe you die in 3 swings, I don't really see that as "over the top."
ALso, what alot of players think of as "skill" isn't.
RPG's don't take sklill, thats the whole point of RPG.
WoW takes skill the same way Diablo2 takes skill. It doesn't. There is no skill involved. Its equipment and talents vs equipment and talents.
This is a rank 14 warrior
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-285572967686627023
Just imagainewhat a fully deck out raider with the latests weapons can do..
So you're saying this guy wasn't a raider, and he was able to dish out that kind of ownage.
Thanks for proving my point.
If he can own you without raiding, and he can own you after raiding, then you are simply owned.
You basically answered your own question.
This is what we call end game but fact is blizzard has done the end game badly.
I want all those things you mentioned but done properly or at least a bit decent.
1)raids.There is only about what 4 raid zones avaliable?Until a few months ago it was about 1!Farming one zone over and over again is totally boring even if it drops a sword that can kill a player in 1 hit!Variety is the fruit of mmorpg life .
2)tradeskills.Way too easy to max out.I can remember becoming maxing out a tailoring /enchanting in a few days.I ofc do not want to spend months grinding a tradeskills but there is almost no depth in tradeskills.Then you have to raid and raid for rare reciepes or grind mad number of factions to buy it.
3)epic mount money.I thought the price was about fair.If you took time and did your normal hunts you will get the mounth eventually.But most are impatient and spam guildies for money or farm a spot know for good drops for days,but this is not blizzard's fault but the players.
4)pvp.Probably this what made me quit.Due to the fact that open area pvp is much less rewarding then BG ppl are willing to stand mindlessly queues of 1hr+ to get into a dwarfish zone to fight a 15 vs 15 for 15 mins.
For a game that has a good population its a wonder why blizzard took this route when they could be huge battles,with no queues and not sitting in some zone i can see the other end of it.
Who cares if my army of 100 has to fight 200 alliance.Eventually we will learn to play as a team and win as hiberians did in DAoC quite often.Heck the primitive battles in TM showed blizzard the way and even showed organisation>numbers.Yet they went the BG road.
5)solo content worthwhile.More long but rewarding quests for solo players is very helpful indeed!
Sort this issues espically the pvp and i would be back in a second .But atm i see pvp done so much better in many other mmorpg i cannot justify myself coming back till its sorted.If millions are happy with the current system i say congrats to them but until its adjusted i have zero intrest
Um... how about group content? You know, instances that aren't raids like they have earlier? How about interesting quests, like the one they did for opening the AQ gates that was raid-only? How about some good PVP content, especially content that doesn't involve winning solely by raid gear? The basic concept of non-raid content is not that complicated, it seems like a silly question.
And to whoever said there's not much difference between raid gear and non-raid gear, when you start talking more than 1.5x the DPS just on a weapon (with stats, you can expect around double the DPS for a raider vs non-raider) as a minor difference there's something just wrong.
Dark Edge of Insanity
Binds when picked up
Unique
Two-Hand Axe
242 - 364 Damage Speed 3.50
(86.6 damage per second)
+35 Strength
+19 Agility
+25 Stamina
Durability 120 / 120
Requires Level 60
Ashkandi, Greatsword of the Brotherhood
Binds when picked up
Two-Hand Sword
229 - 344 Damage Speed 3.50
(81.9 damage per second)
+33 Stamina
Durability 120 / 120
Requires Level 60
Equip: +86 Attack Power.
Arcanite Reaper
Binds when equipped
Two-Hand Axe
153 - 256 Damage Speed 3.80
(53.8 damage per second)
+13 Stamina
Durability 100 / 100
Requires Level 58
Equip: +62 Attack Power
I´ll tell you why. because MMORPG players of today want everything like a fast food restaurant. people don´t want anything "massive" anymore. people want their cookie and they want it NOW! people complaint "blablabla WoW's too easy..blablabla it goes to fast". but they don't want to take the time to create a raid group, they don't want to take a few hours to complete a raid dungeon with 40 people. a lot of people don't understand the term "EPIC". if you want an epic weapon, you are going to have to work for it.if you don't want to work for it, then you have to be statisfied with blue equipment. people want 5 group dungeons that are over in 15 minutes with epic loot drop 100%. your playing an MMORPG, not some kind of single player game. if you don't like it, then there's the door to GW and Diablo 2.
What kind of restaurant do raiders want then? I'm not aware of any where you can only get served with a party of 40 people.
Acually, the raiders aren't the ones complaining.
We're quite satisfied despite lack of content.
Quite simple.
I want the best groupers to be peoples who work in GROUP, not in some other gameplay.
Raiders complains more than anyone else...just go visit AFTERLIFE website if you doubt my words! Oh, in case you don't know who Afterlife is...they are the players from EQ that Blizzard hire.
I want a Gameplay that is logical, that finish or never finish with itself, not with another gameplay I never want to play.
Go play Saga of Ryzom and you will get the feeling I am meaning unless you are more hardcore than Brad himself!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
If it was about competition then instances wouldn't exist as they do now. I have yet to hear of anyone having trouble claiming an isntanced boss like Nef or Dynamis lord. Part of what is lacking in current MMOs is lack of competition honestly.
As far as I am concerned the BEST drops should be in the world where others can interact with it you at the same time. But now that concentual PvP is the norm this will never happen. Even on PvE servers of various games this won't happen because people will complain they never have the chance to get that item because they never claim the spawn. Contrary to popular belief raiding in games like WoW are easy mode, no matter how hard the encounters are as long as no one else is competing it is easy mode. Having said that in a game system likethat designing 40 person content is silly since the hardcore gamer is not the majority due to the lack of copmetition built into the system. Getting 20 people together is alot more in line with the player base of such a game.
Eh, Brad! Are you seriously catering to THAT type of players thinking it will be good for the game in the long term to have them at the TOP of the hierarchy?
I think the best groupers should earn EVERYTHING by grouping, never with another gameplay. Best soloers should earn everything by soloing! Quite simple really.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
If it was about competition then instances wouldn't exist as they do now. I have yet to hear of anyone having trouble claiming an isntanced boss like Nef or Dynamis lord. Part of what is lacking in current MMOs is lack of competition honestly.
As far as I am concerned the BEST drops should be in the world where others can interact with it you at the same time. But now that concentual PvP is the norm this will never happen. Even on PvE servers of various games this won't happen because people will complain they never have the chance to get that item because they never claim the spawn. Contrary to popular belief raiding in games like WoW are easy mode, no matter how hard the encounters are as long as no one else is competing it is easy mode. Having said that in a game system likethat designing 40 person content is silly since the hardcore gamer is not the majority due to the lack of copmetition built into the system. Getting 20 people together is alot more in line with the player base of such a game.
1. Where do you find most of your best items? That's right, in the instance?
2. How do you beat most instances in the beginning? That's right, you group with other people?
3. What do most of the game's aspect rival around? That's right guild and party based game play.
The reason instance exist the way they do is so players won't farm them and prevent other from getting the items they need. 99% of the MMORPG are about competition, but they just don't put urgency on it. You can take much time as you want getting to end point, but you have to realize that group-play is both the main aspect and selling of WoW.
WoW isn't easy. As I told a player in the DDO forums, go play the SkullRock with a level 10 warrior or rogue and try to kill the two elites within that area. You can't do it. The game is not easy and it's limited on it's solo, it's only easy for powergamers who farm low level areas and/or buy the best items for their level.
If they took the group-oriented aspect out of it, what would make MMORPG any different from a console?
WoW put the group-oriented aspect end believing that guilds and parties would help each other in receiving their goals. Being a causal or hardcore player HAS NOTHING TO with the content. The content was put in there so people can enjoy more group activities and be rewarded for group competitiveness. The only reason people are getting pissed about being force to engaged in group activities is that fact that they have to share with others, be it there time, items or gold.
1. So the best items are in instances without any competition...did you read my post?
2. Having group content does not require instances. Never has never will.
3. Guilds have yet to compete for the boss spawns in WoW. Outdorr raid bosses have a little competition and is a step on the right track but guild competition and party play has no correlation to instances. THe correlation to group play and instances is that the competition is removed.
4. I never asked for solo play, I was saying instances remove competition.
Honestly, WoW raiding is easier than most games. Which is fine since that is the market they are going for, but at the same time the instances exist for everyone with the time and guild to raid to get the uber gear. They did that for 2 reasons. 1 is to reduce server laod. 2 is to make the raidign content easier. Look at how Kazzak was dumbed down then look at the outdoor raid bosses spawn times being shortened. THey did that to make them easier to get the claims/kills because these "end game guilds" don't know how to handle competition.
Atleast DDO doesn't pretend to be all high and might like the end game of WoW and actually some of the content is dramtically harder than some of WoW's. The only real challenge I have had in WOW recently was the 45min Baron runs, which the only reasonto run for many people is for the challenge, the rewardsa re acrap for the cost and effort.
BTW console games have a lot of grouping. Infact many people complain that FFXI has too large a focus on grouping for example. But, you didn't read my previous post, so I doubt you will read this one entirely either.
1. So the best items are in instances without any competition...did you read my post?
2. Having group content does not require instances. Never has never will.
3. Guilds have yet to compete for the boss spawns in WoW. Outdorr raid bosses have a little competition and is a step on the right track but guild competition and party play has no correlation to instances. THe correlation to group play and instances is that the competition is removed.
4. I never asked for solo play, I was saying instances remove competition.
Honestly, WoW raiding is easier than most games. Which is fine since that is the market they are going for, but at the same time the instances exist for everyone with the time and guild to raid to get the uber gear. They did that for 2 reasons. 1 is to reduce server laod. 2 is to make the raidign content easier. Look at how Kazzak was dumbed down then look at the outdoor raid bosses spawn times being shortened. THey did that to make them easier to get the claims/kills because these "end game guilds" don't know how to handle competition.
Atleast DDO doesn't pretend to be all high and might like the end game of WoW and actually some of the content is dramtically harder than some of WoW's. The only real challenge I have had in WOW recently was the 45min Baron runs, which the only reasonto run for many people is for the challenge, the rewardsa re acrap for the cost and effort.
BTW console games have a lot of grouping. Infact many people complain that FFXI has too large a focus on grouping for example. But, you didn't read my previous post, so I doubt you will read this one entirely either.
1. Nice try in trying to ignore the fact you go to instance to get better equipment so you can do better in more harder instances. I wasn't letting you off that easy. You also seem to forget that players in the same group competite for the same items. A paladins and warriors are always butting heads over who gets what armor and weapons so that pretty much throws that argument out that window. (It was much of argument truth be told.)
2. This doesn't make any sense. Are you saying instances in this game don't require group effort? All the instances in this game require group effort. Or are you referring to the history of the MMORPG as a whole?
3. See above. Raid groups have the same problems with itemization as normal 5 man parities. Guilds are competiting with each to be the best pvp guilds. Guilds are trying their best to get the end game in a hurry so they can start raiding.
4. Actually, instance don't remove competition. They are other reason they are put there. It has has to do with lag and availability. Instance remove the one flaw that outside quests have, and that's griefing. Because PC players will kill monsters or a outside boss over and over again, preventing players from finishing quest. It's the equivalent of a player going into the lands of the other faction and killing their NPC quest givers. Don't prevent you have heard of any of instance coming in servers. If you are going to say you haven't then you're playing stupid on purpose so you won't have to acknowledge my argument, which would be pretty childish.
DDO has an end game? Last I check when I played it, DDO was grinding from start to finish. It has very little content and has no end game aspect. There nothing to explore and it a straight forward game with little to expect.
When I speak of console games, I'm talking about the single player roleplaying games, not the RPG game you can play online. What would make MMORPGs different from console rpgs if you took out the group-oriented aspect?
I don't know why I am answering, but mewh I am bored. You obviously have trouble reading past the words on a page into their meaning.
1. An item in an instance can be easily attempted for again. If you keep having to roll over ever item and competing within your group stop PUGing. Honestly A krol blade dropped in a UD run recently, we master looted it to the rogue immedaitely, because we are all real life friends. Maybe you should run instances with people you know...but there is not competition really, no 3rd party can pull Rag after you cleaered around him and steal your kill. Do you understand that? It happens in other games. Doesn't drop what you want? doesn't matter as soo nas you can reset the instance you ahve another chance to kill him at you leisure.
2. Groups do not have to be in instances. Instances do not have to be designed for groups. Never have never will. You made a misleading statment that no having instances would be removal of group content. Lets see if you get it this time.
Having group content does not require instances. Never has never will.
3. This is false. Sure the first time somethign drops there is competition. but eventually no one needs it and it gets DE'd. Maybe the wrong people are in your guild and need before greed doesn't happen, but that doesn't mean every other guild is that greedy.
4. Obviously you didn't read my original post...I suggest you do, not that you will. And by definition "preventing griefing" and such is removing competition. You want to finish a quest easily, fine, but realize you DO NOT WANT COMPETITION. Instances are fine for those that want them, but they are there to do exactly what you apparenlty want, which is to remove competition. Of course no competition means nothing is really earned. Most end game raiders respect the hunter with his epic bow more than the one in full tier 2 for a reason. The quest is epically annoying from griefers, but finishing it is an accomplishment.
You want to be able to progress without competition. Fine, that is what you want in the game, but don't say you are not also removing the competiton. Admit it you are.
I don't know why I am answering, but mewh I am bored. You obviously have trouble reading past the words on a page into their meaning.
1. An item in an instance can be easily attempted for again. If you keep having to roll over ever item and competing within your group stop PUGing. Honestly A krol blade dropped in a UD run recently, we master looted it to the rogue immedaitely, because we are all real life friends. Maybe you should run instances with people you know...but there is not competition really, no 3rd party can pull Rag after you cleaered around him and steal your kill. Do you understand that? It happens in other games. Doesn't drop what you want? doesn't matter as soo nas you can reset the instance you ahve another chance to kill him at you leisure.
2. Groups do not have to be in instances. Instances do not have to be designed for groups. Never have never will. You made a misleading statment that no having instances would be removal of group content. Lets see if you get it this time.
Having group content does not require instances. Never has never will.
3. This is false. Sure the first time somethign drops there is competition. but eventually no one needs it and it gets DE'd. Maybe the wrong people are in your guild and need before greed doesn't happen, but that doesn't mean every other guild is that greedy.
4. Obviously you didn't read my original post...I suggest you do, not that you will. And by definition "preventing griefing" and such is removing competition. You want to finish a quest easily, fine, but realize you DO NOT WANT COMPETITION. Instances are fine for those that want them, but they are there to do exactly what you apparenlty want, which is to remove competition. Of course no competition means nothing is really earned. Most end game raiders respect the hunter with his epic bow more than the one in full tier 2 for a reason. The quest is epically annoying from griefers, but finishing it is an accomplishment.
You want to be able to progress without competition. Fine, that is what you want in the game, but don't say you are not also removing the competiton. Admit it you are.
Dude, you're wasting nobody's time, but my mines with you playing coy here. I've been reading your post all the way, but most of what you say is completely irrevelant.
1. I didn't once in my post say "I" had a problem with competition in groups. I'll admit have had problems, but these problems are share by many members of WoW. What goes happens during my gameplay has nothing to do with the argument and you're only using it as effort to change the subject. No one is stupid enough to fall for your childish tricks. You can play coy all you want and even if you really don't no it doesn't matter. There are posts made everyday about classes competiting with other class over items. Whether it's high level instances or low level instance.
End argument. You're vain attempt to continue this argument has failed and all the other stuff you mention was irrevelant too.
2. Based on how you worded the sentence the first time made no sense. And the statement you made now is nothing more than a opinion. You cannot do instances of the same level as yourself without a group. The only time you can do a instance without a group is if you are several levels over the elite characters and have superior armor and weapons, in which I mentioned earlier that many people who say the game is easy are powegamers who farm low-instances and have the best equipment. Again, you're playing coy to avoid acknowledging facts that are right in front you.
3. Again, throwing the situation back on me again to try and change the subject. Whether that's aspect is true or not, it STILL DOESN'T DISCREDIT the fact there IS COMPETITIVENESS amongst guilds and guild members.
4. Griefing has nothing to do with competition. It simply an enjoyment in making someone else unhappy. Not all players kill NPCs or monsters repeatedly to prevent other players, but to make your gameplay miserable. That's what I mean by griefing. People break rules in this game all the time to grief people.
And to answer the other part of #4, I'll answer it by answering the questioning you keep ducking. I asked you specifically, "If they didn't have instances what would make MMORPGs different from console games?"
Answer? There would be no competition without instances. The gameplay would be benefitional to the few groups who can exploit and grief the other players; therebey elimating any and all other competition. Without anybody competiting there would be no competition. That's how single-player game play, there is no competition and the game straight forward.
Saying that instance gets rid of competition shows how little of this game you know. And if you playing coy, it doesn't make you slick either being cynical about the instance situation. Unless you're looking at both aspects of the topic, this is pretty pointless and sad argument. I suggest you go ask around a little and play so more WoW before making these narrow-minded statements.
As to the first: games keep using the idea of RAIDing as the only end-game because that's what came before, and they are -- relying on what came before to keep people happy; and because it's easy to just crank out something that re-uses existing ideas and limitations.
What should a, quote, "end-game" look like? Like the the rest of the game. That we look at this in two parts is my largest complaint: the experience of the game shouldn't change abruptly because we hit some abritrary "level limit". What needs to take place is a change in how we look at the entirety of the gaming experience, not simply the "end-game", not simply "RAID"s.
Example: a fantasy world where the players can swear allegiance to NPC-led factions, like a thieves' guild, where doing so unlocks quest lines for that faction. Have a militia structure where players can swear fealty and move in the ranks, participating in a variety of quests (assignments, missions, whatever), which in turn allow the player to gain rank. So to within the NPC-led factions, where quests can unlock ranks and with rank, more quests. Perhaps by becoming a Captain in the Militia, you now have responsibliities - which are quests which only you can hand out (only Captain-rank individuals can hand out). And so forth on up the chain. Make it where the ranking officer player who "unlocks" these assigned quests for other players gain some experience by finding people to do them. Have a prestige meter, which tracks activities like these -- and have rewards and promotions based on prestige as well. These quests can be across the spectrum -- PvP, PvE, solo, group, whatever.
Quest structure can be both PvP and PvE, depending on your preference when you choose your "flag" for the assignment -- for instance: the militia is preparing to attack a tower held by another militia (another city, kingdom, whatever). They need several things done: scouting (solo, PvE) for information; patrols around the area (either PvE or PvP, depending; the purpose being to prevent reinforcements from arriving at the tower); and they need players to form a large unit (RAID-like structure, or "groups en masse") for the attack on the tower (which would also be either PvP or PvE, depending on whether the tower is held by opposing players or by a militia guard unit).
And so forth. Keep the ideas coming: have players able to hand out "craft" quests to other players -- aka, I need fifty copper rocks, but I don't want to adventure forth to do so; bring me those, and I'll pay you "x", but by taking the quest and then completing it, the player who took the quest also gains experience. You don't need someone at the company level "creating content" if you provide the players with the capacity to participate in the world -- as with the "craft" quests. What do we gain with such things? You've now tied players together, and done it in a way where the player who doesn't want to craft can negotiate his "fee" for adventuring to gather resources for the crafter (a piece of armor, copper, gold, whatever). You've got players creating content and making the world fee more "alive" -- because they're participating in it.
So too with the church organization. Perhaps we'll have five or six "priestly orders" the players can join (though only one). These orders for priests might emphasize different things, and therefore open up additional skills in keeping with their philosophy -- so an order that emphasizes going forth into the world and helping those in need might unlock "survival" skills that other priests don't get; and again, joining an order would also unlock quests specific to the order. Also meta-quests: those "assignments" that gain rank in the Order, but that don't necessarily have an "end". AKA I've joined the Order of the Wandering Priests -- my "meta-quest" or "assignment" is to venture forth and heal people who need it (be they NPCs or PCs). There isn't a "heal 50 people and come back for your next assignment". It's a quest that remains active for as long as you're in the Order, but you gain prestige for each act of charity you perform. Every so many prestige points in this column (the Order-specific column) gets you promotions within the Order, plus a shift in your "public prestige" (the way the NPCs look at you), which can affect prices, etc.
Crafting? Look to horizons for this (nothing else, just this). Players should be able to build actual things in the world -- bridges, houses, etc. The key is, building something like a house should require multiple crafters in order to get it done reasonably quickly --- or you can build it yourself, but it'll take a lot of actual time. Items should be customizeable... (obviously within limits), much like the Diablo jewel-socketing ideas. Or Horizons current customizeability (if there were just a game attached to it).
That's some ideas. They represent that strange thing called "using your imagination" to come up with ideas that aren't just retreads.
For the record: you can look to Warhammer: Online to offer some of what's above, though not remotely all of it (specifically, the "tower" idea, with quests that relate to one another but vary based on your own choice or "flag" -- aka PvP or PvP).
To start with.
Learn to reduce froum clutter when posting, seriously. Also you are an idiot plain and simple who can't seem to understand what you ahve read.
Your problem is you are a greedy dense person most liekly grouping with other greedy dense people. You fall under both catergories of people who never accopmlish much in any end game because you are stupid and greedy. The competition you face isn't part of the game but part of your ego. What you don't understand is that since no one else can enter your instance, you have no player competition. Also ironically you are tryign to play coy and I can only pray tryign to play stupid to win this arguement.
Since group content existed before instances even within WoW how can you possibley say they are necessary for group content? Oh right, the whole idiot thing, gotcha. Personally Arathi Highlands was my favorite instance to group in...oh wait that isn't an instance. I also liked doing the Desolace instance quests in a nice 5 person group...oh shyte not an instance.
Griefing is competition. You may not like the competition but it is competition. But considering the lenghs of your stupidity you most likely consider anyone else on the quest killing "you mobs" as greifing you. Face it you can't handle competition which is why you love instances.
Not that the rest of your posts would suggest anything less than your stupid stereotyping, but you should really try some of the console MMOs before you make more of an ass out of yourself.
To continue my own ideas: we have flags that flip based on some things. Perhaps by going PvP and killing wantonly, you become known as a "criminal" to the militia. The flag goes on for your character that says "criminal" -- and it flips another flag that turns on a bulletin-board in the militia house that is a "wanted" board. Players, militia or not, can then take the "quests" that these "wanted" posters generate (and they generate the reward based on the severity of the person's actions).
And so forth. Again, players and their behaviors are creating the world and policing it. Requires a lot of work up-front ... but not remotely as much afterward. I'd also recommend a skill-based system instead of a level-based one (sort of like Asheron's Call 1, sort of).
And more...