What would be nice as the end game thing would be a nice movie. I mean comeon there is the intro, there should be an outro. Maybe it could even be an in-game cutscene or something like the racial intro where the camera zooms to your character. That would make the grind worth while and give some noobs something to look forward too. I am also in favor of the in-game cutscenes when a mini-boss or a normal boss is beaten. I am sure after half-hour battle with Ragnarus people would enjoy him die in a glorified way. Well this is all just my opinion.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue."
Originally posted by CaptainRPG Originally posted by damian7
Originally posted by CaptainRPG
Originally posted by damian7 Bottom line: there are thousands of ways to alter the structures of online games to create other-than-RAID endings -- and thousands of idiots who, like too many companies, can't seem to use their imaginations to create those alternatives.
i may be zoning-in on just one portion of this post... but bravo to the bottom line.
I wouldn't look into his statement all that much, his opinion is based his lack of knowledge on how adding content works.
well, judging from your next reply to my next post, um.... i honestly have no idea where you're getting your ideas about MMOs from. i think it's from wow and wow alone. sorry, you need to expand your horizons and play a few others and see what pvp and REAL end game content is like. then you'll go back to wow and be like "um, why am i going to spend all weekend in this same dungeon AGAIN for the 30th time????"
and scroll up to my post about what GOOD end game content is please.
the stuff you're saying just isn't making sense man, sorry.
I've been on many mmorpgs unlike yourself as you seem to view everything from just UO standpoint.
Everything will suck in your eyes no matter what's added. All companies copy each other ideas. If someone did come up with something new, WoW, GW, EQ2, etc. would take the the idea and make it their own. Nearly all COMPANIES have a history of taking ideas and making them their own. New ideas become trends and get old very quick. And instead having you here whining about there not being enough variation of end-game content, you'll be here whining about how every game offers the same thing.
Worrying about end-content is BS and only people with a lot of time on their hands who LOVE to complain worry about stuff no one except YOU have a problem with. The money isn't made at the end of the game, it's made DURING the game. That's why there is so much content in the MIDDLE of the game and not at the end of the game. So how do people choose games? Unless they are game fanatics of a series, they choose games based on the quality content and it's fee. (if there is one.)
People have the most fun in the middle of the game, not at the end. It's BS to say the game begins at level XX. Only moronic and egotistic Elitists say stupid crap like that. I've played many mmorpg and people don't play games for end-content, they play games to enjoy them with other people. That's why people enjoy the content in the middle of game more then the endgame. Again, I say these games weren't meant to beaten, they were meant to be enjoyed.
And with that, I'm going to bed.
your very topic states: what do raid-haters expect as an "end game"?
so you slam me for answering the topic posed by this thread?
tell me exactly which MMOs you have played where you have not taken xp and/or item loss (other than wow)? YOU stated' that is a table top way of thinking' and to 'stop thinking that way'. yet here you're saying you're an old hand at many MMOs. so which of the MMOs that you've played do not penalize you in any form for kicking the bucket? other than world of warcraft, that is...
your statement about "end game by definition is an endless grind".
this is a falsehood, untrue, and wrong. i used UO as an example, it being the first MMO to hit the scene. i used this example to point out that the FIRST mmo, had no end game grind. it had no 8+ hour dungeons which you'd have to endure 50+ times with 39 others. i pointed out that they did lead the way with bad customer service.
i then pointed out that EQ led the way in the mind-numbing, uncreative, incredibly dull and boring "end game grind".
i've pointed out quite a few games which ignore this weak, poorly implemented quirk. should i point out the number of games which are either in beta, or which are working on an expansion, or even which are out right now --- all of which have worlds which react to player actions. this is a new end game which is taking shape, because people aren't stupid, & many people (i'm betting the ones that don't act like ADD is a disease) don't enjoy the "endless grind" and do complain about it. many people stay in a guild and do the grind because they're bored and don't see another game like the one they're playing, without said grind.
an example that comes to mind of a reactive environment world which is already here, i'd have to say is a loreplay realm on shadowbane. i'm sure there are others, but nothing jumps out at me.
what is your reason for this post? you've just shown that it WASN'T to get ideas about what raid-haters expect for end game content. i like to point to UO, because it predated EQ by a couple of years (if memory serves). it IS the first MMO, and it has NO class system and NO end game countless hour grind to get some uber item (times 100 times so everyone in the 40 man raid/guild can get items), an excellent crafting system, item decay and a player economy driven by 1- best items made by crafters 2- you could lose everything you own if you were pk'd and 3- item decay.
i actually loved (and want to love) games like swg, wow, and COx.
as a customer, it's my right to expect certain things and if the company i'm buying from fails to meet these expectations (some by an incredibly long shot), then it's also my right to demand better and to point out the flaws of said public company. such is capitalism. sure, 5 billion chinese might worship at the buddha, but does that make it right? sheer numbers do not make something better, just more popular at the time.
if the gaming companies want rave reviews all over the world and internet, then they give gaming reviews. after all, if an interviewer flames your incredibly flawed/boring game; then what are the odds that the next gaming company will give you an interview? so on that premise, you're going to get the real deal from players who've played the games from months and have nothing to lose by being honest and objective. after having invested their time and hearts into said games and characters (and reading things in eulas which state that your time and effort invested in said game are worth absolutely nothing and that all your characters and such are the property of the company itself); then, it should be expected for them to have emotion and passion in their thoughts. if you can't read the words they've typed because of the emotion they bring to the table; well, that's a character flaw and a lack on the part of the reader, not the reviewer.
class systems - as seen in the single talent end game builds in wow. the class system is outdated and incredibly "in the box" thinking. some games give a lot more variety/lattitude in the class build system (such as shadowbane, and especially COx. cox does a wonderful job of giving you powerful lvl 40/50 builds for all it's classes/archtypes/powersets); but overall the entire class system is just begging for cookie cutter builds.
incredibly long, STATIC dungeons. it's END GAME CONTENT --- why should it be farmable? yet that's what all these mega dungeon end game contents are - farmable, because you have to kill the unkillable uber master of the underworld 500 times in order to equip all 40 people on the mission.
but a lot of games have certain things they've done right, or exceedingly well, and other games would do well to take a lead from said excellent points.
COx has incredibly novel and new ideas with regards to character creation. 100% and nothing but kudos there. they've slowly tried to implement new things - pvp zones, the fires that hellions set; i'm sure eventually these things will improve and become more of a factor. they have giant monsters to defeat in various zones, kudos again. mayhem missions will provide an interesting change of pace for villains. ever play a blapper? nothing like a non-defenses-having blaster running into the middle of a bunch of baddies and sending one after the next flying. /energy for some nifty finishing moves. take things like drop kick and air superiority just for the fun of it. a blapper is a blast to play and helps ya ignore that you're still fighting the same mobs 20 levels later. blapper is just one example of a "gimped" build which is incredibly NOT gimped and a total blast to play! like i said, character creation and plotting out a character build are two things that this game has down pat and at which they are GREAT!
eve online is a game for intelligent people. it requires you to be social and part of a corporation in order to excel. social here not meaning the uber-minded wannabe kiddie who is after the best gear so he can zomgwtfbbqpwn everyone. the 'gain skills over time' thing is well implemented and a nice change of pace from grinding for skills. if you can only play a few hours a week, your skills will still be increasing. personally, i don't want to live my life in a pod stuck on a ship. this is where eve loses love. but all in all, they've got a lot of good things going for them.
then we have games like ryzom. no classes, myriad number of skills which advance as you actually use said skills. too burned out from wow and COx to give this game the chance it deserves. maybe down the road. yet here, they seem to have a universe which is affected by player participation in various events. an ongoing political storyline is present. no mindless pve dungeon grind here from what i can see. but also, no player housing. so no wars to whack the enemy's turf. lots of good things in this game.
shadowbane. haven't played this one enough yet to get a feel for the gvg thing they have going on. but the entire player-built cities and siege weapons is just - wow! it seems they've taken the pvp/player housing ideas which were first present in UO and took off running with said ideas. from everything i've read, they ran in the right direction. kudos indeed. downsides... it's not as bright and pretty as wow/cox. class-based system, but lots of points to put in a myriad number of skills. i like how they start you with four basic classes (fighter, rogue, mage, healer), then when you hit lvl 10 you choose (i believe it's called) a profession. now the cool part about this is that 2 or 3 of the basic classes may be able to advance into that profession. say you want to be an assassin, i THINK fighter, rogue and mage (maybe not fighter) can all be assassins. even if it's just mage and rogue; you can have your mage or rogue powers and continue to advance those, in addition to your *standard* assassin powers. now keep in mind, when you create your character you have points to put into various powers/talents and i believe at lvl 20 you get to choose a few bonus class/racial ability trees. i guess another drawback could be the names of toons i see. pwnwater, ilikechocolate and just odd things like that. but um, not as pretty and goofball names aren't really bad things that'll ruin a game. i'm just going to have to play this one more and get some experience with the city warfare thing, in order to have a TRUE opinion on this game. but here's another one that's doing a lot of things right.
uo - pre carebear. completely customizable player housing (if you can find a spot to put a house), 700 skill points to put into any number of skills (skills max at grandmaster - 100, with the exception of the scroll thingies which raise your max), players can create items as good as, if not better than, all the loot you can find - this creates and keeps a player economy. pvp was basically anywhere outside of towns and was inside of towns if it was a warring guild. items had decay and you could dork them if you repair them wrong, so you WILL eventually have to get new items, again, stimulating a working economy. here's great things about a real old game, which other games would do well to copy and improve upon. some have to an extent. some haven't.
games SHOULD copy GOOD ideas off other games. they should avoid copying BAD ideas. the endless, tedious, same-dungeon-and-mobs-every-single-time-with-no-changes-ever "end game" dungeons were a horrid idea as soon as they were implemented.
don't agree? do you have a wife? husband? kids? pets? friends you play ball with? friends you shoot pool with? anything along those lines which intimates you have an offline life? if so, then yeah, ask them about the time you spend on the computer in that same dungeon hour after hour again and again.
then again, some people like having 'end game' farmable, and therefore by definition of being farmable - easy. "ooo i'm playing end game and i'm good at it~!! i'm uber~!!" there's a lot of folks just like that. more power to ya, now give me original-thinking devs who can come up with alternatives.
and to the guy that posted about the movie at the end. diablo2 has a movie at the end. not exactly an mmo, but diablo2 did have a bunch of movies which helped tell the story.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Even the most casual of my friend always look forward the 'end-game' and consider if he can attain it, dream of attaining it or if it is completely off-limits.
Raiding and PvP like WoW does really piss them and turn them off. Basically, they now have the lazy reflex to check if I attain it or think I will attain it, they figure they can HOPE to attain it themselves. Dreaming, Hope, this is very important.
- Gimme a system with NOTHING, fine, I WON. This is not the ideal ending, but I am happy, I leave and I plan to buy back other products and join at every expansion.
- LDoN without raiding...now you got me drooling all over the place!
- Endless levels with level cap on EVERY zone, so a level 5 is the King of Crushbone or whatever level 5 zone, not a level 98358385 character, so now everyone has many DREAMS, many HOPES, many GOALS. 'Hardcores elitists' players like me will be extremely happy to have the same dungeon, copy/paste, but 50 levels higher on a loop-endless system. Off course this mean that in expansion rather than having levels you add AAs or the like, but nothing prevent you from adding AAs for every level range, once the loop is over you can even copy/past the AAs system as well, duplicating everything I has to earn in sooo many ways the devs will laugh at seeing me working on them at level 437 or whatever! In that time, my casuals friends would earn them for level 25 and be better than me in a level 25 dungeon where we will group together, they will be happy and proud and deep inside me, I know I can work on those AAs, yet, I would try to be nice and work on beating the AL noobs claiming they are hardcores, showing them how noobs they are in the higher zones! Yeah, that would be a blast for everyone! Since the peoples who should work on high levels areas working on lower, they would find this extremely annoying to see me pass them...but you can't developp everything, you have to make choices...
- The sidekick system of CoH work well, and it EXTREMELY important for me to group with my friends. The Examplar system from CoH is a nice start, but it doesn't work. If you have endless levels, nothing prevent you from having an examplar system that give XP in the higher zones, it work far slower and it is not a good option for anyone leveling up, but heck, I still can level up while grouping my friends...or I can sidekick them...whatever...
Someone saying a player should not look to be the best in his field is wrong...deadly wrong...players are PLAYING, they are ENTERTAINING themselves. Sorry, but I get no blast from been a lowless something, I have to DREAM the TOP of something, each of my casual friend dream about that as well! Raiding-PvP end-game replace the natural 'end-system' with something I can't dream off, even less my RL friends. So, this is quite simple...raiding/PvP as it exist in WoW is not acceptable, it is a pure aberation.
I don't want to be the best in the 'raid-land', I honestly can't care less. But I certainly want to be the best in 'group-land' and if I can't dream about it, you lose me right there. If 'raider03' joins my group, he can't be allowed to use whatever he earns in raiding as a better grouping tool, it make no sense at all and kill grouping right there. It would feel cheap as well if raiders don't have to earn in a GROUP the grouping tools. If someone want to be good in a group, he has to GROUP! Perfectly logical and rational and promoting grouping like it should. The best grouping rewards deserve to be earned in group only.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
your very topic states: what do raid-haters expect as an "end game"?
Mine or the ops because I didn't make the topic.
so you slam me for answering the topic posed by this thread?
I didn't make this thread. tell me exactly which MMOs you have played where you have not taken xp and/or item loss (other than wow)? YOU stated' that is a table top way of thinking' and to 'stop thinking that way'. yet here you're saying you're an old hand at many MMOs. so which of the MMOs that you've played do not penalize you in any form for kicking the bucket? other than world of warcraft, that is...
GW, WoW, Knight Online, Lineage II (Item loss come only if you pick unreasonable fight.), D&D Online, NWN (Only one server had loss item and XP on death. Other servers that had that rule didn't have any players.), EQ and EQII.
your statement about "end game by definition is an endless grind".
Again, I didn't say that.
this is a falsehood, untrue, and wrong. i used UO as an example, it being the first MMO to hit the scene. i used this example to point out that the FIRST mmo, had no end game grind. it had no 8+ hour dungeons which you'd have to endure 50+ times with 39 others. i pointed out that they did lead the way with bad customer service. Well that's just it, no game will be like UO for. You want WoW to be like UO, but it never will. I can name a number of example why it is a bad to have that. BTW how many players does UO have?
i then pointed out that EQ led the way in the mind-numbing, uncreative, incredibly dull and boring "end game grind".
Yet it got up to 1 million players. class systems - as seen in the single talent end game builds in wow. the class system is outdated and incredibly "in the box" thinking. some games give a lot more variety/lattitude in the class build system (such as shadowbane, and especially COx. cox does a wonderful job of giving you powerful lvl 40/50 builds for all it's classes/archtypes/powersets); but overall the entire class system is just begging for cookie cutter builds.
All MMORPG aspects are outdateds. All console game rpg aspects are outdated. And this is similar to what's going on in table top business to. DnD the granddaddy of all rpgs HAS ran out of ideas. I'm dead serious. Professional Writers for DnD are either getting fired or no work at all. The company is suffering from a vaccum because of the both the open gaming license and the fact they aren't trying to update the gameplay.
Yes, they still coming up with books, but only new settings from professional authors in the business, they updating old books and they coming up with new feats, skills monsters for the old system, but little money is being made.
MMORPGs are suffering the same ordeal. They can't come up with different new ideas because players favor certain ideas over others. For example, a thousand players like XP Loss, but 1 million others like not lossing their XP. The company is going to go with the winning formula that'll make them more money. (The same thing WotC is doing with DnD)
There isn't anything else you can do with fantasy games these days. What the companies need to do is leave fantasy games alone for about 5 to 20 years then come out with new game that can put a spin on old ideas.
i've pointed out quite a few games which ignore this weak, poorly implemented quirk. should i point out the number of games which are either in beta, or which are working on an expansion, or even which are out right now --- all of which have worlds which react to player actions.
Please note them. this is a new end game which is taking shape, because people aren't stupid, & many people (i'm betting the ones that don't act like ADD is a disease) don't enjoy the "endless grind" and do complain about it. many people stay in a guild and do the grind because they're bored and don't see another game like the one they're playing, without said grind.
Like I said, they don't play the game to beat the game or master the game, but to enjoy it with friends. That's why DDO has loyal players even though it sucks.
an example that comes to mind of a reactive environment world which is already here, i'd have to say is a loreplay realm on shadowbane. i'm sure there are others, but nothing jumps out at me.
Shadowbane is getting cancelled, it hasn't been cancelled already.
what is your reason for this post? you've just shown that it WASN'T to get ideas about what raid-haters expect for end game content. i like to point to UO, because it predated EQ by a couple of years (if memory serves). it IS the first MMO, and it has NO class system and NO end game countless hour grind to get some uber item (times 100 times so everyone in the 40 man raid/guild can get items), an excellent crafting system, item decay and a player economy driven by 1- best items made by crafters 2- you could lose everything you own if you were pk'd and 3- item decay.
Again, how many players does UO have and why aren't you still playing that game. i actually loved (and want to love) games like swg, wow, and COx.
Yes, you'll love them if they copy UO style. as a customer, it's my right to expect certain things and if the company i'm buying from fails to meet these expectations (some by an incredibly long shot), then it's also my right to demand better and to point out the flaws of said public company. such is capitalism. sure, 5 billion chinese might worship at the buddha, but does that make it right? sheer numbers do not make something better, just more popular at the time.
Sorry, capitalism doesn't work like that. Capitalism works on what the majority favors, not on what one person or a few people want.
incredibly long, STATIC dungeons. it's END GAME CONTENT --- why should it be farmable? yet that's what all these mega dungeon end game contents are - farmable, because you have to kill the unkillable uber master of the underworld 500 times in order to equip all 40 people on the mission.
Can't answer that, but it hasn't made a lot of people unhappy.
but a lot of games have certain things they've done right, or exceedingly well, and other games would do well to take a lead from said excellent points.
Again, name those those games.
COx has incredibly novel and new ideas with regards to character creation. 100% and nothing but kudos there. they've slowly tried to implement new things - pvp zones, the fires that hellions set; i'm sure eventually these things will improve and become more of a factor. they have giant monsters to defeat in various zones, kudos again.
They have giant monsters to death in other games. What's COx?
mayhem missions will provide an interesting change of pace for villains. ever play a blapper? nothing like a non-defenses-having blaster running into the middle of a bunch of baddies and sending one after the next flying. /energy for some nifty finishing moves. take things like drop kick and air superiority just for the fun of it. a blapper is a blast to play and helps ya ignore that you're still fighting the same mobs 20 levels later. blapper is just one example of a "gimped" build which is incredibly NOT gimped and a total blast to play! like i said, character creation and plotting out a character build are two things that this game has down pat and at which they are GREAT!
Are you talking about City of Heroes and Villians? Cox is all grind and it has the same aspects of other MMORPGs.
eve online is a game for intelligent people. it requires you to be social and part of a corporation in order to excel. social here not meaning the uber-minded wannabe kiddie who is after the best gear so he can zomgwtfbbqpwn everyone. the 'gain skills over time' thing is well implemented and a nice change of pace from grinding for skills. if you can only play a few hours a week, your skills will still be increasing. personally, i don't want to live my life in a pod stuck on a ship. this is where eve loses love. but all in all, they've got a lot of good things going for them.
People who like Eve Online like Sci-Fi, but want to play as an MMORPG. then we have games like ryzom. no classes, myriad number of skills which advance as you actually use said skills. too burned out from wow and COx to give this game the chance it deserves. maybe down the road. yet here, they seem to have a universe which is affected by player participation in various events. an ongoing political storyline is present. no mindless pve dungeon grind here from what i can see. but also, no player housing. so no wars to whack the enemy's turf. lots of good things in this game.
Dark Age of Camelot was doing very well with a PvP based "endgame".
that was, UNTIL they introduced a PvE raidbased endgame that killed off their PvP game with gear imbalances. (ToA)
if Mythic can pull off with WAR what they did with early DAoC Realm vs Realm combat and refine it on top of the Games Workshop license, then we will finally have the game that WoW promised to be before release.
Dark Age of Camelot was doing very well with a PvP based "endgame".
that was, UNTIL they introduced a PvE raidbased endgame that killed off their PvP game with gear imbalances. (ToA)
if Mythic can pull off with WAR what they did with early DAoC Realm vs Realm combat and refine it on top of the Games Workshop license, then we will finally have the game that WoW promised to be before release.
we all did believe Blizzard as they said they would learn from Everquests mistakes (that of us that came over from EQ due to their prerelease promises at least), ... well that one didn t go so well.
now we hope Mythic will remake the gameplay they already made once, without screwing it up in a later expansion (as before eh)
Ya what happened to DAOC is pretty Ironic I'm thinking about checking out the classic servers in that 14 day trile they got going on now should be pretty fun.
Pretty much what Raid haters or non raiders want is the option to still be competitive in the other aspects of the game. The problem is now non raiders are not competitve in PvP, they are free hks etc. Seriously if they made good pvp gear that was only available through pvp and good for only pvp and not taking more work than raiding then I think you would see alot less complaints. Also in wow just about all classes are gear dependant you can say warriors more so than others but just about all of them are.
Originally posted by CaptainRPG Originally posted by damian7
your very topic states: what do raid-haters expect as an "end game"?
Mine or the ops because I didn't make the topic.
so you slam me for answering the topic posed by this thread?
I didn't make this thread. tell me exactly which MMOs you have played where you have not taken xp and/or item loss (other than wow)? YOU stated' that is a table top way of thinking' and to 'stop thinking that way'. yet here you're saying you're an old hand at many MMOs. so which of the MMOs that you've played do not penalize you in any form for kicking the bucket? other than world of warcraft, that is...
GW, WoW, Knight Online, Lineage II (Item loss come only if you pick unreasonable fight.), D&D Online, NWN (Only one server had loss item and XP on death. Other servers that had that rule didn't have any players.), EQ and EQII.
your statement about "end game by definition is an endless grind".
Again, I didn't say that.
this is a falsehood, untrue, and wrong. i used UO as an example, it being the first MMO to hit the scene. i used this example to point out that the FIRST mmo, had no end game grind. it had no 8+ hour dungeons which you'd have to endure 50+ times with 39 others. i pointed out that they did lead the way with bad customer service. Well that's just it, no game will be like UO for. You want WoW to be like UO, but it never will. I can name a number of example why it is a bad to have that. BTW how many players does UO have?
i then pointed out that EQ led the way in the mind-numbing, uncreative, incredibly dull and boring "end game grind".
Yet it got up to 1 million players. class systems - as seen in the single talent end game builds in wow. the class system is outdated and incredibly "in the box" thinking. some games give a lot more variety/lattitude in the class build system (such as shadowbane, and especially COx. cox does a wonderful job of giving you powerful lvl 40/50 builds for all it's classes/archtypes/powersets); but overall the entire class system is just begging for cookie cutter builds.
All MMORPG aspects are outdateds. All console game rpg aspects are outdated. And this is similar to what's going on in table top business to. DnD the granddaddy of all rpgs HAS ran out of ideas. I'm dead serious. Professional Writers for DnD are either getting fired or no work at all. The company is suffering from a vaccum because of the both the open gaming license and the fact they aren't trying to update the gameplay.
Yes, they still coming up with books, but only new settings from professional authors in the business, they updating old books and they coming up with new feats, skills monsters for the old system, but little money is being made.
MMORPGs are suffering the same ordeal. They can't come up with different new ideas because players favor certain ideas over others. For example, a thousand players like XP Loss, but 1 million others like not lossing their XP. The company is going to go with the winning formula that'll make them more money. (The same thing WotC is doing with DnD)
There isn't anything else you can do with fantasy games these days. What the companies need to do is leave fantasy games alone for about 5 to 20 years then come out with new game that can put a spin on old ideas.
i've pointed out quite a few games which ignore this weak, poorly implemented quirk. should i point out the number of games which are either in beta, or which are working on an expansion, or even which are out right now --- all of which have worlds which react to player actions.
Please note them. this is a new end game which is taking shape, because people aren't stupid, & many people (i'm betting the ones that don't act like ADD is a disease) don't enjoy the "endless grind" and do complain about it. many people stay in a guild and do the grind because they're bored and don't see another game like the one they're playing, without said grind.
Like I said, they don't play the game to beat the game or master the game, but to enjoy it with friends. That's why DDO has loyal players even though it sucks.
an example that comes to mind of a reactive environment world which is already here, i'd have to say is a loreplay realm on shadowbane. i'm sure there are others, but nothing jumps out at me.
Shadowbane is getting cancelled, it hasn't been cancelled already.
what is your reason for this post? you've just shown that it WASN'T to get ideas about what raid-haters expect for end game content. i like to point to UO, because it predated EQ by a couple of years (if memory serves). it IS the first MMO, and it has NO class system and NO end game countless hour grind to get some uber item (times 100 times so everyone in the 40 man raid/guild can get items), an excellent crafting system, item decay and a player economy driven by 1- best items made by crafters 2- you could lose everything you own if you were pk'd and 3- item decay.
Again, how many players does UO have and why aren't you still playing that game. i actually loved (and want to love) games like swg, wow, and COx.
Yes, you'll love them if they copy UO style. as a customer, it's my right to expect certain things and if the company i'm buying from fails to meet these expectations (some by an incredibly long shot), then it's also my right to demand better and to point out the flaws of said public company. such is capitalism. sure, 5 billion chinese might worship at the buddha, but does that make it right? sheer numbers do not make something better, just more popular at the time.
Sorry, capitalism doesn't work like that. Capitalism works on what the majority favors, not on what one person or a few people want.
incredibly long, STATIC dungeons. it's END GAME CONTENT --- why should it be farmable? yet that's what all these mega dungeon end game contents are - farmable, because you have to kill the unkillable uber master of the underworld 500 times in order to equip all 40 people on the mission.
Can't answer that, but it hasn't made a lot of people unhappy.
but a lot of games have certain things they've done right, or exceedingly well, and other games would do well to take a lead from said excellent points.
Again, name those those games.
COx has incredibly novel and new ideas with regards to character creation. 100% and nothing but kudos there. they've slowly tried to implement new things - pvp zones, the fires that hellions set; i'm sure eventually these things will improve and become more of a factor. they have giant monsters to defeat in various zones, kudos again.
They have giant monsters to death in other games. What's COx?
mayhem missions will provide an interesting change of pace for villains. ever play a blapper? nothing like a non-defenses-having blaster running into the middle of a bunch of baddies and sending one after the next flying. /energy for some nifty finishing moves. take things like drop kick and air superiority just for the fun of it. a blapper is a blast to play and helps ya ignore that you're still fighting the same mobs 20 levels later. blapper is just one example of a "gimped" build which is incredibly NOT gimped and a total blast to play! like i said, character creation and plotting out a character build are two things that this game has down pat and at which they are GREAT!
Are you talking about City of Heroes and Villians? Cox is all grind and it has the same aspects of other MMORPGs.
eve online is a game for intelligent people. it requires you to be social and part of a corporation in order to excel. social here not meaning the uber-minded wannabe kiddie who is after the best gear so he can zomgwtfbbqpwn everyone. the 'gain skills over time' thing is well implemented and a nice change of pace from grinding for skills. if you can only play a few hours a week, your skills will still be increasing. personally, i don't want to live my life in a pod stuck on a ship. this is where eve loses love. but all in all, they've got a lot of good things going for them.
People who like Eve Online like Sci-Fi, but want to play as an MMORPG. then we have games like ryzom. no classes, myriad number of skills which advance as you actually use said skills. too burned out from wow and COx to give this game the chance it deserves. maybe down the road. yet here, they seem to have a universe which is affected by player participation in various events. an ongoing political storyline is present. no mindless pve dungeon grind here from what i can see. but also, no player housing. so no wars to whack the enemy's turf. lots of good things in this game.
Again, how many players does this game have.
shadowbane.
Being cancelled, nuff said.
read with comprehension.
shadowbane is not being cancelled, get your facts straight.
uo has been going on for 9+ years.
if people don't like something, they won't keep paying for it. that's capitalism.
if you're not buddhist, or you don't like rice, then you believe that the majority of people in the world are wrong.
notice the difference in the thoughts?
you said to list these games which did things excellently. see the 'read with comprehension' statement. but a lot of games have certain things they've done right, or exceedingly well, and other games would do well to take a lead from said excellent points.
Again, name those those games.
um, read the half dozen or so paragraphs below your "list them" statement. i listed them, ad nauseum. i listed things they did well. instead of following the line of thought, you instead attempted to pick them apart? again, read with comprehension.
up to 1 million people playing eq = it being good is the same as saying 5 billion chinese eating rice or being buddhists means that everyone should eat rice or worship the buddha. can you see how numbers do not make a thing good, right, or the best way to do something?
if nwn is an mmo, then that means diablo, diablo2 and quite a few other games where you can lose items are mmos.
you listed about 5 games, where you take no loss from death? so that leaves us only 40 or 50 mmos where you can lose items and/or xp. you have the minority here. yet again, your logic is not so clear.
"incredibly long, STATIC dungeons. it's END GAME CONTENT --- why should it be farmable? yet that's what all these mega dungeon end game contents are - farmable, because you have to kill the unkillable uber master of the underworld 500 times in order to equip all 40 people on the mission."
you said you can't answer that. if you can't answer that, then how are you answering the question posed in the OP?
you keep making these snide one liner comments to thoughts i've presented. you honestly don't see the forest for the trees? by your remarks, you have completely missed the points i've made, totally and completely.
i'm sorry for you.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
shadowbane is not being cancelled, get your facts straight.
It's already been stated, it's getting cancelled. uo has been going on for 9+ years.
What does that have to do with Shadowbane being cancelled by end of this year? Moreover, what does that have to do with the number of players playing Ultima Online, which I have asked for, for 2 post now. My guess is that UO is under 300,000 players? if people don't like something, they won't keep paying for it. that's capitalism.
if you're not buddhist, or you don't like rice, then you believe that the majority of people in the world are wrong.
notice the difference in the thoughts?
You're concept doesn't make sense because everyone playing WoW is paying for it and the end-game content is small issue that rarely comes up. The only people whom bring it up is the few like yourself, which is what I've said in my last post that you didn't bother to read through.
you said to list these games which did things excellently. see the 'read with comprehension' statement. but a lot of games have certain things they've done right, or exceedingly well, and other games would do well to take a lead from said excellent points.
Again, name those those games.
um, read the half dozen or so paragraphs below your "list them" statement. i listed them, ad nauseum. i listed things they did well. instead of following the line of thought, you instead attempted to pick them apart? again, read with comprehension.
You talk CoV/CoH a game which uses the same formula as others other MMORPGs and it's end game is the same. In fact, the number of playing that game is around 200 to 300 thousand mark.
You've mentioned Shadowbane, which is getting cancelled.
Ryzom is non-existent on the player raider and isn't even in the same league as game EQ or WoW. It's still in bottom league.
You mentioned UO and you don't provided any figure of it's player base or the game highlights, yet you want US to believe these are great games? Why should we believe you when can't provide facts.
up to 1 million people playing eq = it being good is the same as saying 5 billion chinese eating rice or being buddhists means that everyone should eat rice or worship the buddha. can you see how numbers do not make a thing good, right, or the best way to do something?
Dude, cut the crap. I'm not up for your childish games, m'kay. Because you have no figures to back up your claims, you want to discredit any argument that proven by stastistics. Either provide some numbers or shut up.
You listed about 5 games, where you take no loss from death? so that leaves us only 40 or 50 mmos where you can lose items and/or xp. you have the minority here. yet again, your logic is not so clear. I think RYL, SWG, CoH, FF XI, etc. about 50% of the games here don't have an item loss or xp loss. I'm not sure where you're getting your facts from. you said you can't answer that. if you can't answer that, then how are you answering the question posed in the OP?
I don't work for those companies, BUT obviously if nobody here but you has a problem with the end-game then it isn't a problem.
let me try one last time for someone that is still not understanding.
ok, COx does some things right, they do some things excellent. the things they do right/excellently are:
COx has incredibly novel and new ideas with regards to character creation. 100% and nothing but kudos there. they've slowly tried to implement new things - pvp zones, the fires that hellions set; i'm sure eventually these things will improve and become more of a factor. they have giant monsters to defeat in various zones, kudos again.
ok, now that has NOTHING at all to do with end game content. hence the sentence that proceeded the paragraphs which pointed out things being done right. it is a change of thought/different idea. the point being that MMOs would do good to emulate things done well by other games, and not emulate things done poorly by other games. understand? that has NOTHING to do with endgame content. as for giant monsters in the zones. um, where's the monsters that appear at random intervals to terrorize one small section of a game? said monsters can be beaten in 5-20 minutes, provided enough heroes/villains show up in a timely fashion. you get a reward for helping defeat said monsters. nope, no games come to mind that have incorporated THIS sort of a giant monster thing. but maybe you'll give examples, sort of like your examples of games which don't have death penalties (which i touch on farther down). bravo.
now on that same token, i pointed out things DONE WELL, in UO, ryzom and other games.
please go to the shadowbane website, or ashen's site. wolfpack is gone, stray bullet is now in it's place. stray bullet has been commissioned to run shadowbane from here forward. they are also working on new MMOs. stray bullet is made up of many of the people who were in the wolfpack. so, to summarize what's been on the official site, forums, and even these forums, shadowbane is not being cancelled. you can keep saying it is all you want, but i'm pretty sure that when i log into it tonight, that i'll still be playing it.
i'll try to explain again.
if people don't like something, they won't keep paying for it. that's capitalism.
if you're not buddhist, or you don't like rice, then you believe that the majority of people in the world are wrong.
notice the difference in the thoughts?
You're concept doesn't make sense because everyone playing WoW is paying for it and the end-game content is small issue that rarely comes up. The only people whom bring it up is the few like yourself, which is what I've said in my last post that you didn't bother to read through.
isn't this thread about end game content other than raiding, missy? or maybe why folks think it's boring/stupid? in the original post, someone confused the capitalism statement with the comparison made of many people doing something doesn't make it right/better/best. same person still not seeing what is being said, so i'll try again.
just because a lot of people do something, doesn't mean it's the best way to do things. it means the game is pretty. it means a bazillion 10-18 yr olds think it's pretty and they can be something they aren't in real life -- powerful and (in their minds) feared.
the whole point of the capitalism statement is that a lot of games out there are seeing that many people dislike the entire end game raiding started by EQ. (eq being the second mmo to hit the streets.) many games (whom if you add the populations together i'm thinking would be considerable), offer alternatives to a mindless, endless, FARMABLE grind.
end game raiding is farmable, yes? if something is farmable, then by definition, it can't be hard. kids like things handed to them. helps them with the uber/powerful/feared feeling they get, helps them brag and show off their pretties ingame to strangers.
death penalties. here we go again with the misinformation, missy.
I think RYL, SWG, CoH, FF XI, etc. about 50% of the games here don't have an item loss or xp loss. I'm not sure where you're getting your facts from.
coh/cov both give you XP debt when you die. starting at lvl 10, if you die, you get xp debt, or "negative xp bubbles". half your xp goes towards paying this xp debt, half goes to filling up your normal xp bubbles. again, the majority of games out there do, and have some sort of penalty for dying. it's part of the genre which makes it NOT as boring, a little more challenging, and helps keep the interest of the mature audiences.
SWG, yes, if you die, your items take durability hits. you could lessen said losses by purchasing insurance, but every death slowly brought your items to ruin. this is an integral part of any player run economy - item loss/decay. if item's do not decay, or can not be lost, then you have no player economy. see wow for an example of this non-player economy. swg was an example of a pretty decent player economy. the nge still has crafters, and they're still going to want to be ABLE to sell their wares...
i've yet to play ryl or ffxi, neither has struck my fancy as of this time. but for sure, two of your four examples are wrong. i notice you forgot to bring up nwn again. like i said, if you're considering nwn to be an MMO, that means diablo and diablo2 and like-minded games are also MMOs. so we have nwn with no penalties, all the others WITH penalties. facts missy, just the facts.
go to the general forum. i made a post about "end game content". people have ideas about what GOOD end game content is. it can be found there and in numerous other threads on the various individual game forums. but um, you're right again, no one but me thinks farmable raid instances is ludicrous.
like another poster has stated, wow has actually made pvp into a pve grind. so you grind for faction experience and whomever spends the most hours grinding in pvp over the next 3 months, gets pvp rank 14. high pvp rank does not equal the best pvpers, it equals 1- the best honor farmers, 2- the people who've invested the most time pvp-grinding in the pve-like instances. so, if you're going for pvp gear as your end game, instead of raid gear, then yet again, you have hours and hours of mindless grinding awaiting you. BUT, not everyone will be dressed exactly like you, a lot fewer will be. so if you want different, then live in the three BGs.
i'll be playing the next generation games where the gameworld reacts to things done by the players. where cities can be taken by different factions. where you can actually own buildings/land, maybe grow crops, raise cattle.
ya know, the more and more i think about things i'd like to see in MMOs, the more and more i see that old 2d game has implemented a lot of the things i wish the new games would implement. to summarize, i, like many others, enjoy a challenge. if something is farmable, even if that farming takes literal hours (or days) to complete, then it's easy. if it's farmable but takes a long time, then it's easy and a timesink. i'd rather have a challenge, than easy. little kids like easy. little kids flock to easy games.
and yes, ironic is someone who continues to misread and give misinformation and yet asserts herself as being in the right.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Originally posted by damian7 let me try one last time for someone that is still not understanding.
ok, COx does some things right, they do some things excellent. the things they do right/excellently are:
COx has incredibly novel and new ideas with regards to character creation. 100% and nothing but kudos there. they've slowly tried to implement new things - pvp zones, the fires that hellions set; i'm sure eventually these things will improve and become more of a factor. they have giant monsters to defeat in various zones, kudos again.
Actually there character creation is limited. Sure you can pick from the a thousand sizes, colors and suits, but that's because it's best on comic books and comic hero variation. Most of the MMORPGs are fantasy medival games so you cannot create your own suit. PvP zones is what other MMORPGs have. WoW has them too. And WoW has giant monster too before and at near end game. Dragons, Orges and common animals are twice the size of a human by level 20 and three times your size by level 30.
please go to the shadowbane website, or ashen's site. wolfpack is gone, stray bullet is now in it's place. stray bullet has been commissioned to run shadowbane from here forward. they are also working on new MMOs. stray bullet is made up of many of the people who were in the wolfpack. so, to summarize what's been on the official site, forums, and even these forums, shadowbane is not being cancelled. you can keep saying it is all you want, but i'm pretty sure that when i log into it tonight, that i'll still be playing it.
i'll try to explain again.
Denial is not a river in Eygpt.
isn't this thread about end game content other than raiding, missy? or maybe why folks think it's boring/stupid? in the original post, someone confused the capitalism statement with the comparison made of many people doing something doesn't make it right/better/best. same person still not seeing what is being said, so i'll try again.
Please shut up about captialism. I've Business Administration as college course. Your analogy about Buddhist monks and rice didn't make any sense at all consider Buddism is a religion and rice is a food. Rice isn't side order, but makes up the majority of meals in most countries with little food.
Buddhism is a religion people follow and they have no right to make demands about the religion. Religion is about follow one manadate.
Captialism is based on selling people what they want, even if it turns out they want it. In captialism, the majority get what they demand and the quality of the product they are demanding is also changed. So if the majority of the people had a problem with the end game, it would get fixed immediately and some variation would be made. The only beef people have with the game that supercide the endgame is the class balance and PvP Ranking system.
just because a lot of people do something, doesn't mean it's the best way to do things. it means the game is pretty. it means a bazillion 10-18 yr olds think it's pretty and they can be something they aren't in real life -- powerful and (in their minds) feared.
Can you prove the majority of 10 to 18 year play the game? If not, stop making false statement to support your lame @$$ arguments.
the whole point of the capitalism statement is that a lot of games out there are seeing that many people dislike the entire end game raiding started by EQ. (eq being the second mmo to hit the streets.) many games (whom if you add the populations together i'm thinking would be considerable), offer alternatives to a mindless, endless, FARMABLE grind.
end game raiding is farmable, yes? if something is farmable, then by definition, it can't be hard. kids like things handed to them. helps them with the uber/powerful/feared feeling they get, helps them brag and show off their pretties ingame to strangers.
Again, if this were a bad thing, people would be hating this by the millions.
coh/cov both give you XP debt when you die. starting at lvl 10, if you die, you get xp debt, or "negative xp bubbles". half your xp goes towards paying this xp debt, half goes to filling up your normal xp bubbles. again, the majority of games out there do, and have some sort of penalty for dying. it's part of the genre which makes it NOT as boring, a little more challenging, and helps keep the interest of the mature audiences.
By this analogy, WoW also has XP Loss system. If you played WoW there is little line that appear on the bubble of your xp. If you rest while this line is on you, it'll multiple what XP you get from monsters. If you die, not only do loss that extra XP, but you lose valuable time as it may take a long time to run back to body and you lose durability points to your armor. When your armor breaks, you have to go get it fixed, which waste more of your time and XP. Not to mention, broke armor makes it hard to adventure.
When you speak of XP loss, I think some of these game make a character loss all of their XP for that level.
Actually there character creation is limited. Sure you can pick from the a thousand sizes, colors and suits, but that's because it's best on comic books and comic hero variation. Most of the MMORPGs are fantasy medival games so you cannot create your own suit. PvP zones is what other MMORPGs have. WoW has them too. And WoW has giant monster too before and at near end game. Dragons, Orges and common animals are twice the size of a human by level 20 and three times your size by level 30.
never played coh or cov eh?
i'm talking about the 5 arch types, 5 in coh, 5 others in cov.
these are each broken down into 5-8 primary power set choices and 5-8 secondary powerset choices PER archtype. each powerset having 10 powers. each new issue will add anywhere from say 5 - 10 new powersets (spread out amongst the different archtypes). so it used to be every three months you'd see new powersets. now it's taking a bit longer it seems, but hopefully they'll get back to the every three months for a new issue.
further add to this, about a dozen power pools. of which you can have four power pools (each pool having 4 powers).
further add to this, you get your choice of 1 out of 5 epic pools (again four powers each) per arch type.
to further customize your abilities and powers.... you get 1 slot free per power, you can go up to 6 enhancement slots per power. you can make a blast go farther, hit harder, debuff more, or pretty much improve most any aspect of any power you have.
wow is cookie cutter to the extreme if we're talking about clothing/armor/looks. even swg let's you customize your weapons and armors (based upon player skill and mats used) AND you can choose the colors you want. call me crazy but i think even ancient games like uo have different colors for clothes and even their good armors...
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
ME: please go to the shadowbane website, or ashen's site. wolfpack is gone, stray bullet is now in it's place. stray bullet has been commissioned to run shadowbane from here forward. they are also working on new MMOs. stray bullet is made up of many of the people who were in the wolfpack. so, to summarize what's been on the official site, forums, and even these forums, shadowbane is not being cancelled. you can keep saying it is all you want, but i'm pretty sure that when i log into it tonight, that i'll still be playing it.
i'll try to explain again.
the other one: Denial is not a river in Eygpt.
hmm i believe ashen says the exact thing i said above on the official forums. so are you trolling or just not understanding da engrish?
"Yea, a great blight is upon the land, a shadow whose power none can resist. But know this, there is a light within the darkness, and that light shines still. Look upon this blade, and know that you behold the Shadowbane, the Blade of Destiny, lost to the shadows of death and time. If you would preserve all that you have wrought, look to the Sword for your salvation. The return of the sword shall rekindle the hope of the World, and with it you shall conquer any foe." - Zeristan the Wise, The Legend of Shadowbane
I am not at liberty to say much at this moment. There is currently an official announcement in the works that will explain things at greater length and detail. At the same time, we know the community has many questions and we do not wish to just ignore the situation. What I can say at this point is that come tomorrow, Shadowbane will still be running and you'll still have Sachant and myself here to do what we do best. You will also see Jinx, who is new to the Shadowbane Team but an old member of the community itself.
Let me dispel any rumors before they begin. Today Wolfpack Studios has been dissolved and is no more. With that said, members of Wolfpack are reforming under a new group. This group will be working with Ubisoft to help usher in the next era of Shadowbane.
In other words, do not go anywhere! The Saga that is Shadowbane has many more chapters to be written and read!
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
isn't this thread about end game content other than raiding, missy? or maybe why folks think it's boring/stupid? in the original post, someone confused the capitalism statement with the comparison made of many people doing something doesn't make it right/better/best. same person still not seeing what is being said, so i'll try again.
Please shut up about captialism. I've Business Administration as college course. Your analogy about Buddhist monks and rice didn't make any sense at all consider Buddism is a religion and rice is a food. Rice isn't side order, but makes up the majority of meals in most countries with little food.
Buddhism is a religion people follow and they have no right to make demands about the religion. Religion is about follow one manadate.
Captialism is based on selling people what they want, even if it turns out they want it. In captialism, the majority get what they demand and the quality of the product they are demanding is also changed. So if the majority of the people had a problem with the end game, it would get fixed immediately and some variation would be made. The only beef people have with the game that supercide the endgame is the class balance and PvP Ranking system.
for being on college, you seem to have an incredibly hard time with da engrish here.
you've yet AGAIN mixed it all up and ignored the obvious.
5 million people play wow = wow is the best.
that is the same as saying
1 - 5 billion chinese eat rice, it's the best, only eat it. 2 - 5 billion chinese worship the buddha, it's the best, only follow this religion.
people, you, have said things to the effect of "oh 5 millions subs to wow, that means it's the best, how many subs to the other games? they must not be the best"
pretty colors, easily farmable end game raiding = blizznet and other kiddies like it, cuz it's easy and they can be uber ingame.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
just because a lot of people do something, doesn't mean it's the best way to do things. it means the game is pretty. it means a bazillion 10-18 yr olds think it's pretty and they can be something they aren't in real life -- powerful and (in their minds) feared.
Can you prove the majority of 10 to 18 year play the game? If not, stop making false statement to support your lame @$$ arguments.
one word reply to this - blizznet.
'nuff said, point proved.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
the whole point of the capitalism statement is that a lot of games out there are seeing that many people dislike the entire end game raiding started by EQ. (eq being the second mmo to hit the streets.) many games (whom if you add the populations together i'm thinking would be considerable), offer alternatives to a mindless, endless, FARMABLE grind.
end game raiding is farmable, yes? if something is farmable, then by definition, it can't be hard. kids like things handed to them. helps them with the uber/powerful/feared feeling they get, helps them brag and show off their pretties ingame to strangers.
Again, if this were a bad thing, people would be hating this by the millions.
exactly how many people, worldwide, play MMOs?
now, how many MILLIONS of them DON'T play games who take the easy/cheap/lazy way out for "end game" by making boring timesink farmable raids? yes, it's millions. start adding up the pops from all the non raiding games out there. millions and millions of non blizznet folks.
blizzard had a large fanbase from starcraft, the warcrafts and the diablos. they all flocked from blizznet to wow. pretty colors and easy game again attracts kiddies and third world farmers.
i'm wrong? log into any random server, go to Ironforge. sit there for half an hour and watch chat. if they're not kids, then they're 30 yr olds living in mommy's basement. also, every one of those talking is NOT in a raid. yes, you can play wow and never raid or like the raiding, but play it for other reasons. true statement.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
coh/cov both give you XP debt when you die. starting at lvl 10, if you die, you get xp debt, or "negative xp bubbles". half your xp goes towards paying this xp debt, half goes to filling up your normal xp bubbles. again, the majority of games out there do, and have some sort of penalty for dying. it's part of the genre which makes it NOT as boring, a little more challenging, and helps keep the interest of the mature audiences.
By this analogy, WoW also has XP Loss system. If you played WoW there is little line that appear on the bubble of your xp. If you rest while this line is on you, it'll multiple what XP you get from monsters. If you die, not only do loss that extra XP, but you lose valuable time as it may take a long time to run back to body and you lose durability points to your armor. When your armor breaks, you have to go get it fixed, which waste more of your time and XP. Not to mention, broke armor makes it hard to adventure.
When you speak of XP loss, I think some of these game make a character loss all of their XP for that level.
ok, i have to further break this down.
in swg, when your stuff breaks, and you repair it, it won't be 400 points of durability any longer. even if you perfectly repair, it's now 380, 375, whatever max. if you repair badly it might drop to 300 max durability. you will eventually HAVE to replace all of your equipment because it will become totally and completely worthless.
in wow, you never lose this max durability. your item goes red, big whoop, you pay some cash, it's repaired back to max durability. you will NEVER lose this item unless you vendor it or throw it away. that is not a penalty for death.
rested time is from time spent not playing the game. i think you max out at 2 levels of rested time. unless it's a change in 1.10, last time i died, i didn't lose any rested time on any toon in wow.
so no, wow does not have item decay, nor does it have xp loss of any sort. i stand correct in stating that you have no penalties from dying in wow.
having to run back to a body or losing 10% max durability on items is not a death penalty. especially if you can rez at the healer, stone out and pay a few gold and all your items are brand new again. PERMANENTLY losing 10% to your max durability on your items is a death penalty. losing XP, incurring XP debt, those are death penalties. your body being looted by npcs and/or pcs, these are also death penalties because you've lost some of your gear.
i might be stretching it to say that you're the only one that has claimed that wow has death penalties. but not many would go so far to make that statement. especially if they've played pretty much any other mmo. ESPECIALLY if they've played a game with permadeath. and um, this "valuable time running back to your body" to which you refer... you're joking right? please tell me that is a joke.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Comments
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue."
i may be zoning-in on just one portion of this post... but bravo to the bottom line.
I wouldn't look into his statement all that much, his opinion is based his lack of knowledge on how adding content works.
well, judging from your next reply to my next post, um.... i honestly have no idea where you're getting your ideas about MMOs from. i think it's from wow and wow alone. sorry, you need to expand your horizons and play a few others and see what pvp and REAL end game content is like. then you'll go back to wow and be like "um, why am i going to spend all weekend in this same dungeon AGAIN for the 30th time????"
and scroll up to my post about what GOOD end game content is please.
the stuff you're saying just isn't making sense man, sorry.
I've been on many mmorpgs unlike yourself as you seem to view everything from just UO standpoint.
Everything will suck in your eyes no matter what's added. All companies copy each other ideas. If someone did come up with something new, WoW, GW, EQ2, etc. would take the the idea and make it their own. Nearly all COMPANIES have a history of taking ideas and making them their own. New ideas become trends and get old very quick. And instead having you here whining about there not being enough variation of end-game content, you'll be here whining about how every game offers the same thing.
Worrying about end-content is BS and only people with a lot of time on their hands who LOVE to complain worry about stuff no one except YOU have a problem with. The money isn't made at the end of the game, it's made DURING the game. That's why there is so much content in the MIDDLE of the game and not at the end of the game. So how do people choose games? Unless they are game fanatics of a series, they choose games based on the quality content and it's fee. (if there is one.)
People have the most fun in the middle of the game, not at the end. It's BS to say the game begins at level XX. Only moronic and egotistic Elitists say stupid crap like that. I've played many mmorpg and people don't play games for end-content, they play games to enjoy them with other people. That's why people enjoy the content in the middle of game more then the endgame. Again, I say these games weren't meant to beaten, they were meant to be enjoyed.
And with that, I'm going to bed.
your very topic states: what do raid-haters expect as an "end game"?
so you slam me for answering the topic posed by this thread?
tell me exactly which MMOs you have played where you have not taken xp and/or item loss (other than wow)? YOU stated' that is a table top way of thinking' and to 'stop thinking that way'. yet here you're saying you're an old hand at many MMOs. so which of the MMOs that you've played do not penalize you in any form for kicking the bucket? other than world of warcraft, that is...
your statement about "end game by definition is an endless grind".
this is a falsehood, untrue, and wrong. i used UO as an example, it being the first MMO to hit the scene. i used this example to point out that the FIRST mmo, had no end game grind. it had no 8+ hour dungeons which you'd have to endure 50+ times with 39 others. i pointed out that they did lead the way with bad customer service.
i then pointed out that EQ led the way in the mind-numbing, uncreative, incredibly dull and boring "end game grind".
i've pointed out quite a few games which ignore this weak, poorly implemented quirk. should i point out the number of games which are either in beta, or which are working on an expansion, or even which are out right now --- all of which have worlds which react to player actions. this is a new end game which is taking shape, because people aren't stupid, & many people (i'm betting the ones that don't act like ADD is a disease) don't enjoy the "endless grind" and do complain about it. many people stay in a guild and do the grind because they're bored and don't see another game like the one they're playing, without said grind.
an example that comes to mind of a reactive environment world which is already here, i'd have to say is a loreplay realm on shadowbane. i'm sure there are others, but nothing jumps out at me.
what is your reason for this post? you've just shown that it WASN'T to get ideas about what raid-haters expect for end game content. i like to point to UO, because it predated EQ by a couple of years (if memory serves). it IS the first MMO, and it has NO class system and NO end game countless hour grind to get some uber item (times 100 times so everyone in the 40 man raid/guild can get items), an excellent crafting system, item decay and a player economy driven by 1- best items made by crafters 2- you could lose everything you own if you were pk'd and 3- item decay.
i actually loved (and want to love) games like swg, wow, and COx.
as a customer, it's my right to expect certain things and if the company i'm buying from fails to meet these expectations (some by an incredibly long shot), then it's also my right to demand better and to point out the flaws of said public company. such is capitalism. sure, 5 billion chinese might worship at the buddha, but does that make it right? sheer numbers do not make something better, just more popular at the time.
if the gaming companies want rave reviews all over the world and internet, then they give gaming reviews. after all, if an interviewer flames your incredibly flawed/boring game; then what are the odds that the next gaming company will give you an interview? so on that premise, you're going to get the real deal from players who've played the games from months and have nothing to lose by being honest and objective. after having invested their time and hearts into said games and characters (and reading things in eulas which state that your time and effort invested in said game are worth absolutely nothing and that all your characters and such are the property of the company itself); then, it should be expected for them to have emotion and passion in their thoughts. if you can't read the words they've typed because of the emotion they bring to the table; well, that's a character flaw and a lack on the part of the reader, not the reviewer.
class systems - as seen in the single talent end game builds in wow. the class system is outdated and incredibly "in the box" thinking. some games give a lot more variety/lattitude in the class build system (such as shadowbane, and especially COx. cox does a wonderful job of giving you powerful lvl 40/50 builds for all it's classes/archtypes/powersets); but overall the entire class system is just begging for cookie cutter builds.
incredibly long, STATIC dungeons. it's END GAME CONTENT --- why should it be farmable? yet that's what all these mega dungeon end game contents are - farmable, because you have to kill the unkillable uber master of the underworld 500 times in order to equip all 40 people on the mission.
but a lot of games have certain things they've done right, or exceedingly well, and other games would do well to take a lead from said excellent points.
COx has incredibly novel and new ideas with regards to character creation. 100% and nothing but kudos there. they've slowly tried to implement new things - pvp zones, the fires that hellions set; i'm sure eventually these things will improve and become more of a factor. they have giant monsters to defeat in various zones, kudos again. mayhem missions will provide an interesting change of pace for villains. ever play a blapper? nothing like a non-defenses-having blaster running into the middle of a bunch of baddies and sending one after the next flying. /energy for some nifty finishing moves. take things like drop kick and air superiority just for the fun of it. a blapper is a blast to play and helps ya ignore that you're still fighting the same mobs 20 levels later. blapper is just one example of a "gimped" build which is incredibly NOT gimped and a total blast to play! like i said, character creation and plotting out a character build are two things that this game has down pat and at which they are GREAT!
eve online is a game for intelligent people. it requires you to be social and part of a corporation in order to excel. social here not meaning the uber-minded wannabe kiddie who is after the best gear so he can zomgwtfbbqpwn everyone. the 'gain skills over time' thing is well implemented and a nice change of pace from grinding for skills. if you can only play a few hours a week, your skills will still be increasing. personally, i don't want to live my life in a pod stuck on a ship. this is where eve loses love. but all in all, they've got a lot of good things going for them.
then we have games like ryzom. no classes, myriad number of skills which advance as you actually use said skills. too burned out from wow and COx to give this game the chance it deserves. maybe down the road. yet here, they seem to have a universe which is affected by player participation in various events. an ongoing political storyline is present. no mindless pve dungeon grind here from what i can see. but also, no player housing. so no wars to whack the enemy's turf. lots of good things in this game.
shadowbane. haven't played this one enough yet to get a feel for the gvg thing they have going on. but the entire player-built cities and siege weapons is just - wow! it seems they've taken the pvp/player housing ideas which were first present in UO and took off running with said ideas. from everything i've read, they ran in the right direction. kudos indeed. downsides... it's not as bright and pretty as wow/cox. class-based system, but lots of points to put in a myriad number of skills. i like how they start you with four basic classes (fighter, rogue, mage, healer), then when you hit lvl 10 you choose (i believe it's called) a profession. now the cool part about this is that 2 or 3 of the basic classes may be able to advance into that profession. say you want to be an assassin, i THINK fighter, rogue and mage (maybe not fighter) can all be assassins. even if it's just mage and rogue; you can have your mage or rogue powers and continue to advance those, in addition to your *standard* assassin powers. now keep in mind, when you create your character you have points to put into various powers/talents and i believe at lvl 20 you get to choose a few bonus class/racial ability trees. i guess another drawback could be the names of toons i see. pwnwater, ilikechocolate and just odd things like that. but um, not as pretty and goofball names aren't really bad things that'll ruin a game. i'm just going to have to play this one more and get some experience with the city warfare thing, in order to have a TRUE opinion on this game. but here's another one that's doing a lot of things right.
uo - pre carebear. completely customizable player housing (if you can find a spot to put a house), 700 skill points to put into any number of skills (skills max at grandmaster - 100, with the exception of the scroll thingies which raise your max), players can create items as good as, if not better than, all the loot you can find - this creates and keeps a player economy. pvp was basically anywhere outside of towns and was inside of towns if it was a warring guild. items had decay and you could dork them if you repair them wrong, so you WILL eventually have to get new items, again, stimulating a working economy. here's great things about a real old game, which other games would do well to copy and improve upon. some have to an extent. some haven't.
games SHOULD copy GOOD ideas off other games. they should avoid copying BAD ideas. the endless, tedious, same-dungeon-and-mobs-every-single-time-with-no-changes-ever "end game" dungeons were a horrid idea as soon as they were implemented.
don't agree? do you have a wife? husband? kids? pets? friends you play ball with? friends you shoot pool with? anything along those lines which intimates you have an offline life? if so, then yeah, ask them about the time you spend on the computer in that same dungeon hour after hour again and again.
then again, some people like having 'end game' farmable, and therefore by definition of being farmable - easy. "ooo i'm playing end game and i'm good at it~!! i'm uber~!!" there's a lot of folks just like that. more power to ya, now give me original-thinking devs who can come up with alternatives.
and to the guy that posted about the movie at the end. diablo2 has a movie at the end. not exactly an mmo, but diablo2 did have a bunch of movies which helped tell the story.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Even the most casual of my friend always look forward the 'end-game' and consider if he can attain it, dream of attaining it or if it is completely off-limits.
Raiding and PvP like WoW does really piss them and turn them off. Basically, they now have the lazy reflex to check if I attain it or think I will attain it, they figure they can HOPE to attain it themselves. Dreaming, Hope, this is very important.
- Gimme a system with NOTHING, fine, I WON. This is not the ideal ending, but I am happy, I leave and I plan to buy back other products and join at every expansion.
- LDoN without raiding...now you got me drooling all over the place!
- Endless levels with level cap on EVERY zone, so a level 5 is the King of Crushbone or whatever level 5 zone, not a level 98358385 character, so now everyone has many DREAMS, many HOPES, many GOALS. 'Hardcores elitists' players like me will be extremely happy to have the same dungeon, copy/paste, but 50 levels higher on a loop-endless system. Off course this mean that in expansion rather than having levels you add AAs or the like, but nothing prevent you from adding AAs for every level range, once the loop is over you can even copy/past the AAs system as well, duplicating everything I has to earn in sooo many ways the devs will laugh at seeing me working on them at level 437 or whatever! In that time, my casuals friends would earn them for level 25 and be better than me in a level 25 dungeon where we will group together, they will be happy and proud and deep inside me, I know I can work on those AAs, yet, I would try to be nice and work on beating the AL noobs claiming they are hardcores, showing them how noobs they are in the higher zones! Yeah, that would be a blast for everyone! Since the peoples who should work on high levels areas working on lower, they would find this extremely annoying to see me pass them...but you can't developp everything, you have to make choices...
- The sidekick system of CoH work well, and it EXTREMELY important for me to group with my friends. The Examplar system from CoH is a nice start, but it doesn't work. If you have endless levels, nothing prevent you from having an examplar system that give XP in the higher zones, it work far slower and it is not a good option for anyone leveling up, but heck, I still can level up while grouping my friends...or I can sidekick them...whatever...
Someone saying a player should not look to be the best in his field is wrong...deadly wrong...players are PLAYING, they are ENTERTAINING themselves. Sorry, but I get no blast from been a lowless something, I have to DREAM the TOP of something, each of my casual friend dream about that as well! Raiding-PvP end-game replace the natural 'end-system' with something I can't dream off, even less my RL friends. So, this is quite simple...raiding/PvP as it exist in WoW is not acceptable, it is a pure aberation.
I don't want to be the best in the 'raid-land', I honestly can't care less. But I certainly want to be the best in 'group-land' and if I can't dream about it, you lose me right there. If 'raider03' joins my group, he can't be allowed to use whatever he earns in raiding as a better grouping tool, it make no sense at all and kill grouping right there. It would feel cheap as well if raiders don't have to earn in a GROUP the grouping tools. If someone want to be good in a group, he has to GROUP! Perfectly logical and rational and promoting grouping like it should. The best grouping rewards deserve to be earned in group only.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Dark Age of Camelot was doing very well with a PvP based "endgame".
that was, UNTIL they introduced a PvE raidbased endgame that killed off their PvP game with gear imbalances. (ToA)
if Mythic can pull off with WAR what they did with early DAoC Realm vs Realm combat and refine it on top of the Games Workshop license, then we will finally have the game that WoW promised to be before release.
yeh pretty ironic i agree
we all did believe Blizzard as they said they would learn from Everquests mistakes (that of us that came over from EQ due to their prerelease promises at least), ... well that one didn t go so well.
now we hope Mythic will remake the gameplay they already made once, without screwing it up in a later expansion (as before eh)
so yup, hope dies last!~ LOL
Pretty much what Raid haters or non raiders want is the option to still be competitive in the other aspects of the game. The problem is now non raiders are not competitve in PvP, they are free hks etc. Seriously if they made good pvp gear that was only available through pvp and good for only pvp and not taking more work than raiding then I think you would see alot less complaints. Also in wow just about all classes are gear dependant you can say warriors more so than others but just about all of them are.
read with comprehension.
shadowbane is not being cancelled, get your facts straight.
uo has been going on for 9+ years.
if people don't like something, they won't keep paying for it. that's capitalism.
if you're not buddhist, or you don't like rice, then you believe that the majority of people in the world are wrong.
notice the difference in the thoughts?
you said to list these games which did things excellently. see the 'read with comprehension' statement.
but a lot of games have certain things they've
done right, or exceedingly well, and other games would do well to take
a lead from said excellent points.
Again, name those those games.
um, read the half dozen or so paragraphs below your "list them" statement. i listed them, ad nauseum. i listed things they did well. instead of following the line of thought, you instead attempted to pick them apart? again, read with comprehension.
up to 1 million people playing eq = it being good is the same as saying 5 billion chinese eating rice or being buddhists means that everyone should eat rice or worship the buddha. can you see how numbers do not make a thing good, right, or the best way to do something?
if nwn is an mmo, then that means diablo, diablo2 and quite a few other games where you can lose items are mmos.
you listed about 5 games, where you take no loss from death? so that leaves us only 40 or 50 mmos where you can lose items and/or xp. you have the minority here. yet again, your logic is not so clear.
"incredibly long, STATIC dungeons. it's END GAME
CONTENT --- why should it be farmable? yet that's what all these mega
dungeon end game contents are - farmable, because you have to kill the
unkillable uber master of the underworld 500 times in order to equip
all 40 people on the mission."
you said you can't answer that. if you can't answer that, then how are you answering the question posed in the OP?
you keep making these snide one liner comments to thoughts i've presented. you honestly don't see the forest for the trees? by your remarks, you have completely missed the points i've made, totally and completely.
i'm sorry for you.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
let me try one last time for someone that is still not understanding.
ok, COx does some things right, they do some things excellent. the things they do right/excellently are:
COx has incredibly novel and new ideas with
regards to character creation. 100% and nothing but kudos there.
they've slowly tried to implement new things - pvp zones, the fires
that hellions set; i'm sure eventually these things will improve and
become more of a factor. they have giant monsters to defeat in various
zones, kudos again.
ok, now that has NOTHING at all to do with end game content. hence the sentence that proceeded the paragraphs which pointed out things being done right. it is a change of thought/different idea. the point being that MMOs would do good to emulate things done well by other games, and not emulate things done poorly by other games. understand? that has NOTHING to do with endgame content. as for giant monsters in the zones. um, where's the monsters that appear at random intervals to terrorize one small section of a game? said monsters can be beaten in 5-20 minutes, provided enough heroes/villains show up in a timely fashion. you get a reward for helping defeat said monsters. nope, no games come to mind that have incorporated THIS sort of a giant monster thing. but maybe you'll give examples, sort of like your examples of games which don't have death penalties (which i touch on farther down). bravo.
now on that same token, i pointed out things DONE WELL, in UO, ryzom and other games.
please go to the shadowbane website, or ashen's site. wolfpack is gone, stray bullet is now in it's place. stray bullet has been commissioned to run shadowbane from here forward. they are also working on new MMOs. stray bullet is made up of many of the people who were in the wolfpack. so, to summarize what's been on the official site, forums, and even these forums, shadowbane is not being cancelled. you can keep saying it is all you want, but i'm pretty sure that when i log into it tonight, that i'll still be playing it.
i'll try to explain again.
if people don't like something, they won't keep paying for it. that's capitalism.
if you're not buddhist, or you don't like rice, then you believe that the majority of people in the world are wrong.
notice the difference in the thoughts?
You're
concept doesn't make sense because everyone playing WoW is paying for
it and the end-game content is small issue that rarely comes up. The
only people whom bring it up is the few like yourself, which is what
I've said in my last post that you didn't bother to read through.
isn't this thread about end game content other than raiding, missy? or maybe why folks think it's boring/stupid? in the original post, someone confused the capitalism statement with the comparison made of many people doing something doesn't make it right/better/best. same person still not seeing what is being said, so i'll try again.
just because a lot of people do something, doesn't mean it's the best way to do things. it means the game is pretty. it means a bazillion 10-18 yr olds think it's pretty and they can be something they aren't in real life -- powerful and (in their minds) feared.
the whole point of the capitalism statement is that a lot of games out there are seeing that many people dislike the entire end game raiding started by EQ. (eq being the second mmo to hit the streets.) many games (whom if you add the populations together i'm thinking would be considerable), offer alternatives to a mindless, endless, FARMABLE grind.
end game raiding is farmable, yes? if something is farmable, then by definition, it can't be hard. kids like things handed to them. helps them with the uber/powerful/feared feeling they get, helps them brag and show off their pretties ingame to strangers.
death penalties. here we go again with the misinformation, missy.
I think RYL, SWG, CoH, FF XI, etc. about 50% of the games here don't
have an item loss or xp loss. I'm not sure where you're getting your
facts from.
coh/cov both give you XP debt when you die. starting at lvl 10, if you die, you get xp debt, or "negative xp bubbles". half your xp goes towards paying this xp debt, half goes to filling up your normal xp bubbles. again, the majority of games out there do, and have some sort of penalty for dying. it's part of the genre which makes it NOT as boring, a little more challenging, and helps keep the interest of the mature audiences.
SWG, yes, if you die, your items take durability hits. you could lessen said losses by purchasing insurance, but every death slowly brought your items to ruin. this is an integral part of any player run economy - item loss/decay. if item's do not decay, or can not be lost, then you have no player economy. see wow for an example of this non-player economy. swg was an example of a pretty decent player economy. the nge still has crafters, and they're still going to want to be ABLE to sell their wares...
i've yet to play ryl or ffxi, neither has struck my fancy as of this time. but for sure, two of your four examples are wrong. i notice you forgot to bring up nwn again. like i said, if you're considering nwn to be an MMO, that means diablo and diablo2 and like-minded games are also MMOs. so we have nwn with no penalties, all the others WITH penalties. facts missy, just the facts.
go to the general forum. i made a post about "end game content". people have ideas about what GOOD end game content is. it can be found there and in numerous other threads on the various individual game forums. but um, you're right again, no one but me thinks farmable raid instances is ludicrous.
like another poster has stated, wow has actually made pvp into a pve
grind. so you grind for faction experience and whomever spends the
most hours grinding in pvp over the next 3 months, gets pvp rank 14.
high pvp rank does not equal the best pvpers, it equals 1- the best
honor farmers, 2- the people who've invested the most time pvp-grinding
in the pve-like instances. so, if you're going for pvp gear as your end game, instead of raid gear, then yet again, you have hours and hours of mindless grinding awaiting you. BUT, not everyone will be dressed exactly like you, a lot fewer will be. so if you want different, then live in the three BGs.
i'll be playing the next generation games where the gameworld reacts to things done by the players. where cities can be taken by different factions. where you can actually own buildings/land, maybe grow crops, raise cattle.
ya know, the more and more i think about things i'd like to see in MMOs, the more and more i see that old 2d game has implemented a lot of the things i wish the new games would implement.
to summarize, i, like many others, enjoy a challenge. if something is farmable, even if that farming takes literal hours (or days) to complete, then it's easy. if it's farmable but takes a long time, then it's easy and a timesink. i'd rather have a challenge, than easy. little kids like easy. little kids flock to easy games.
and yes, ironic is someone who continues to misread and give misinformation and yet asserts herself as being in the right.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
limited. Sure you can pick from the a thousand sizes, colors and suits,
but that's because it's best on comic books and comic hero variation.
Most of the MMORPGs are fantasy medival games so you cannot create your
own suit. PvP zones is what other MMORPGs have. WoW has them too. And
WoW has giant monster too before and at near end game. Dragons, Orges
and common animals are twice the size of a human by level 20 and three
times your size by level 30.
never played coh or cov eh?
i'm talking about the 5 arch types, 5 in coh, 5 others in cov.
these are each broken down into 5-8 primary power set choices and 5-8 secondary powerset choices PER archtype. each powerset having 10 powers. each new issue will add anywhere from say 5 - 10 new powersets (spread out amongst the different archtypes). so it used to be every three months you'd see new powersets. now it's taking a bit longer it seems, but hopefully they'll get back to the every three months for a new issue.
further add to this, about a dozen power pools. of which you can have four power pools (each pool having 4 powers).
further add to this, you get your choice of 1 out of 5 epic pools (again four powers each) per arch type.
to further customize your abilities and powers.... you get 1 slot free per power, you can go up to 6 enhancement slots per power. you can make a blast go farther, hit harder, debuff more, or pretty much improve most any aspect of any power you have.
wow is cookie cutter to the extreme if we're talking about clothing/armor/looks. even swg let's you customize your weapons and armors (based upon player skill and mats used) AND you can choose the colors you want. call me crazy but i think even ancient games like uo have different colors for clothes and even their good armors...
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
website, or ashen's site. wolfpack is gone, stray bullet is now in
it's place. stray bullet has been commissioned to run shadowbane from
here forward. they are also working on new MMOs. stray bullet is made
up of many of the people who were in the wolfpack. so, to summarize
what's been on the official site, forums, and even these forums,
shadowbane is not being cancelled. you can keep saying it is all you
want, but i'm pretty sure that when i log into it tonight, that i'll
still be playing it.
i'll try to explain again.
the other one: Denial is not a river in Eygpt.
hmm i believe ashen says the exact thing i said above on the official forums. so are you trolling or just not understanding da engrish?
the below is taken from: http://ubbforums.ubi.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news&Number=2725510&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1
Reged: 02/20/03
Posts: 8060
Loc: Texas
The Saga Continues
#2725510 - 05/16/06 12:38 AM
Edit
Reply
Quote
"Yea, a great blight is upon the land, a shadow
whose power none can resist. But know this, there is a light within the
darkness, and that light shines still. Look upon this blade, and know
that you behold the Shadowbane, the Blade of Destiny, lost to the
shadows of death and time. If you would preserve all that you have
wrought, look to the Sword for your salvation. The return of the sword
shall rekindle the hope of the World, and with it you shall conquer any
foe."
- Zeristan the Wise, The Legend of Shadowbane
I am
not at liberty to say much at this moment. There is currently an
official announcement in the works that will explain things at greater
length and detail. At the same time, we know the community has many
questions and we do not wish to just ignore the situation. What I can
say at this point is that come tomorrow, Shadowbane will still be
running and you'll still have Sachant and myself here to do what we do
best. You will also see Jinx, who is new to the Shadowbane Team but an
old member of the community itself.
Let me dispel any rumors
before they begin. Today Wolfpack Studios has been dissolved and is no
more. With that said, members of Wolfpack are reforming under a new
group. This group will be working with Ubisoft to help usher in the
next era of Shadowbane.
In other words, do not go anywhere! The Saga that is Shadowbane has many more chapters to be written and read!
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
this thread about end game content other than raiding, missy? or maybe
why folks think it's boring/stupid? in the original post, someone
confused the capitalism statement with the comparison made of many
people doing something doesn't make it right/better/best. same person
still not seeing what is being said, so i'll try again.
Please
shut up about captialism. I've Business Administration as college
course. Your analogy about Buddhist monks and rice didn't make any
sense at all consider Buddism is a religion and rice is a food. Rice
isn't side order, but makes up the majority of meals in most countries
with little food.
Buddhism is a religion people follow and they
have no right to make demands about the religion. Religion is about
follow one manadate.
Captialism
is based on selling people what they want, even if it turns out they
want it. In captialism, the majority get what they demand and the
quality of the product they are demanding is also changed. So if the
majority of the people had a problem with the end game, it would get
fixed immediately and some variation would be made. The only beef
people have with the game that supercide the endgame is the class
balance and PvP Ranking system.
for being on college, you seem to have an incredibly hard time with da engrish here.
you've yet AGAIN mixed it all up and ignored the obvious.
5 million people play wow = wow is the best.
that is the same as saying
1 - 5 billion chinese eat rice, it's the best, only eat it.
2 - 5 billion chinese worship the buddha, it's the best, only follow this religion.
people, you, have said things to the effect of "oh 5 millions subs to wow, that means it's the best, how many subs to the other games? they must not be the best"
pretty colors, easily farmable end game raiding = blizznet and other kiddies like it, cuz it's easy and they can be uber ingame.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
something, doesn't mean it's the best way to do things. it means the
game is pretty. it means a bazillion 10-18 yr olds think it's pretty
and they can be something they aren't in real life -- powerful and (in
their minds) feared.
Can
you prove the majority of 10 to 18 year play the game? If not, stop
making false statement to support your lame @$$ arguments.
one word reply to this - blizznet.
'nuff said, point proved.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
whole point of the capitalism statement is that a lot of games out
there are seeing that many people dislike the entire end game raiding
started by EQ. (eq being the second mmo to hit the streets.) many
games (whom if you add the populations together i'm thinking would be
considerable), offer alternatives to a mindless, endless, FARMABLE
grind.
end
game raiding is farmable, yes? if something is farmable, then by
definition, it can't be hard. kids like things handed to them. helps
them with the uber/powerful/feared feeling they get, helps them brag
and show off their pretties ingame to strangers.
Again, if this were a bad thing, people would be hating this by the millions.
exactly how many people, worldwide, play MMOs?
now, how many MILLIONS of them DON'T play games who take the easy/cheap/lazy way out for "end game" by making boring timesink farmable raids? yes, it's millions. start adding up the pops from all the non raiding games out there. millions and millions of non blizznet folks.
blizzard had a large fanbase from starcraft, the warcrafts and the diablos. they all flocked from blizznet to wow. pretty colors and easy game again attracts kiddies and third world farmers.
i'm wrong? log into any random server, go to Ironforge. sit there for half an hour and watch chat. if they're not kids, then they're 30 yr olds living in mommy's basement. also, every one of those talking is NOT in a raid. yes, you can play wow and never raid or like the raiding, but play it for other reasons. true statement.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
both give you XP debt when you die. starting at lvl 10, if you die,
you get xp debt, or "negative xp bubbles". half your xp goes towards
paying this xp debt, half goes to filling up your normal xp bubbles.
again, the majority of games out there do, and have some sort of
penalty for dying. it's part of the genre which makes it NOT as
boring, a little more challenging, and helps keep the interest of the
mature audiences.
By
this analogy, WoW also has XP Loss system. If you played WoW there is
little line that appear on the bubble of your xp. If you rest while
this line is on you, it'll multiple what XP you get from monsters. If
you die, not only do loss that extra XP, but you lose valuable time as
it may take a long time to run back to body and you lose durability
points to your armor. When your armor breaks, you have to go get it
fixed, which waste more of your time and XP. Not to mention, broke
armor makes it hard to adventure.
When you speak of XP loss, I think some of these game make a character loss all of their XP for that level.
ok, i have to further break this down.
in swg, when your stuff breaks, and you repair it, it won't be 400 points of durability any longer. even if you perfectly repair, it's now 380, 375, whatever max. if you repair badly it might drop to 300 max durability. you will eventually HAVE to replace all of your equipment because it will become totally and completely worthless.
in wow, you never lose this max durability. your item goes red, big whoop, you pay some cash, it's repaired back to max durability. you will NEVER lose this item unless you vendor it or throw it away. that is not a penalty for death.
rested time is from time spent not playing the game. i think you max out at 2 levels of rested time. unless it's a change in 1.10, last time i died, i didn't lose any rested time on any toon in wow.
so no, wow does not have item decay, nor does it have xp loss of any sort. i stand correct in stating that you have no penalties from dying in wow.
having to run back to a body or losing 10% max durability on items is not a death penalty. especially if you can rez at the healer, stone out and pay a few gold and all your items are brand new again. PERMANENTLY losing 10% to your max durability on your items is a death penalty. losing XP, incurring XP debt, those are death penalties. your body being looted by npcs and/or pcs, these are also death penalties because you've lost some of your gear.
i might be stretching it to say that you're the only one that has claimed that wow has death penalties. but not many would go so far to make that statement. especially if they've played pretty much any other mmo. ESPECIALLY if they've played a game with permadeath. and um, this "valuable time running back to your body" to which you refer... you're joking right? please tell me that is a joke.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?