Originally posted by azhrarn Originally posted by Spathotan Guys/gals, stop feeding Squidi the troll please. All of you should know that you cant win an argument against a troll, because they are always right.
/hides behind Spathotan
Make it better, daddy.
Lol
"There's no star system Slave I can't reach, and there's no planet I can't find. There's nowhere in the Galaxy for you to run. Might as well give up now." Boba Fett
Originally posted by Spathotan Guys/gals, stop feeding Squidi the troll please. All of you should know that you cant win an argument against a troll, because they are always right.
I would be more than happy to have this conversation, but if you are going to degenerate the level of discussion to that of a three year old, nevermind. If you would like to point out how I have done anything but share my differing opinion - how I have exhibited any trollish behavior beyond not being just like you, then please point it out. But if your entire criteria for calling me a troll is that I disagree with you, then by golly, I'll buy you a dictionary of internet slang for your birthday.
Originally posted by Squidi Originally posted by Spathotan Guys/gals, stop feeding Squidi the troll please. All of you should know that you cant win an argument against a troll, because they are always right.
I would be more than happy to have this conversation, but if you are going to degenerate the level of discussion to that of a three year old, nevermind. If you would like to point out how I have done anything but share my differing opinion - how I have exhibited any trollish behavior beyond not being just like you, then please point it out. But if your entire criteria for calling me a troll is that I disagree with you, then by golly, I'll buy you a dictionary of internet slang for your birthday.
I dont need to provide any evidence, it speaks for itself just go through all the threads on the 1st page of this forum. Youve been on a posting rampage for the past 2 or 3 days kissing phantom ass, quick to judge everybody and everything but yet claim you are just having simple conversations. SoE has no presence here so just go back to their own forums.
"There's no star system Slave I can't reach, and there's no planet I can't find. There's nowhere in the Galaxy for you to run. Might as well give up now." Boba Fett
Posting rampage? I have like 200 posts total. You've got OVER 900, and I joined these forums six months before you did. If you want to get into a quantity debate with me, you might want to step outside your glass house first.
Originally posted by Squidi Posting rampage? I have like 200 posts total. You've got OVER 900, and I joined these forums six months before you did. If you want to get into a quantity debate with me, you might want to step outside your glass house first.
He meant in the current forum of SWG and not overall... Read what he posted.. then respond...
"I dont need to provide any evidence, it speaks for itself just go through all the threads on the 1st page of this forum. Youve been on a posting rampage for the past 2 or 3 days kissing phantom ass, quick to judge everybody and everything but yet claim you are just having simple conversations. SoE has no presence here so just go back to their own forums."
Xcathdra
Having access to a billion $ IP - Billions of dollars.. Having access to a massive fan base of said IP - Even more Billons... Singly handedly alienating them due to stupidity - Priceless.
Though I've posted in most of these threads, you will definitely see more people show up more often than my meager postings even within the same thread. This thread is six pages long and this is only my sixth or seventh post - and that's less than azhrarn or joejccva, and on par with several other posters. I have certainly not posted above the standard deviation for this forum.
I don't know who's ass you think I'm kissing, as I've been nothing but attacked for sharing my thoughts. I'm certainly not impressing anyone here. What I am doing is providing a valuable counterpoint to the general consensus.
Quick to judge? I don't really know how to answer that. I guess I might be doing that, but in a forum where everybody who likes the NGE must be a troll, idiot, or on SOE's payroll, I'd say I'm not above the standard deviation for this forum in that manner either.
And I was having a simple conversation. I think entertainers were a mistake because making social aspects into forced gameplay is a really good way to ruin social aspects. This is a conversation I've had before, in which I've said many of the exact same things to some of the very people who worked on SWG, and I dare say they handled the discussion in a far more reasonable manner. I dare say it was an excellent discussion with fair points being made on both sides. But here, for stating identical things to this forum, I am labeled a troll and insulted.
We CAN have this discussion. I'd like to have this discussion. In fact, I'm in the middle of programming a MUD at the moment and these are the sorts of questions I have to consider currently, and the ability to bounce opinions off those who disagree with me provides valuable insight that I wouldn't stumble upon alone. I am EAGER to have this discussion. But I won't have it with you guys if you are going to act like spoiled little children any time someone says something you disagree with. The second you realize that disagreeing with someone is a blessing, I'd be more than happy to continue this discussion.
Originally posted by Squidi Though I've posted in most of these threads, you will definitely see more people show up more often than my meager postings even within the same thread. This thread is six pages long and this is only my sixth or seventh post - and that's less than azhrarn or joejccva, and on par with several other posters. I have certainly not posted above the standard deviation for this forum.
I don't know who's ass you think I'm kissing, as I've been nothing but attacked for sharing my thoughts. I'm certainly not impressing anyone here. What I am doing is providing a valuable counterpoint to the general consensus.
Quick to judge? I don't really know how to answer that. I guess I might be doing that, but in a forum where everybody who likes the NGE must be a troll, idiot, or on SOE's payroll, I'd say I'm not above the standard deviation for this forum in that manner either.
And I was having a simple conversation. I think entertainers were a mistake because making social aspects into forced gameplay is a really good way to ruin social aspects. This is a conversation I've had before, in which I've said many of the exact same things to some of the very people who worked on SWG, and I dare say they handled the discussion in a far more reasonable manner. I dare say it was an excellent discussion with fair points being made on both sides. But here, for stating identical things to this forum, I am labeled a troll and insulted.
We CAN have this discussion. I'd like to have this discussion. In fact, I'm in the middle of programming a MUD at the moment and these are the sorts of questions I have to consider currently, and the ability to bounce opinions off those who disagree with me provides valuable insight that I wouldn't stumble upon alone. I am EAGER to have this discussion. But I won't have it with you guys if you are going to act like spoiled little children any time someone says something you disagree with. The second you realize that disagreeing with someone is a blessing, I'd be more than happy to continue this discussion.
We are disagreeing with you... The more you act like you are better than everyone else the more people are going to dislike you and what you have to say here. We had that treatment from Sony already and left their boards to discuss things here. If you wish to point out what makes the NGE better than what was go for it.. I would like to hear your points.
A blanket statment though jsut doesnt cut it anymore. As far as being able to discuss things with the DEVS from SWG.. More power to you then. They do nothing but ignore the people who play the game. Communicatiuon is wonderous, and should be 2 ways...
Xcathdra
Having access to a billion $ IP - Billions of dollars.. Having access to a massive fan base of said IP - Even more Billons... Singly handedly alienating them due to stupidity - Priceless.
I don't not think I'm better than you (well a few of the more trollish characters maybe). However, you guys keep insisting that because I like the NGE, you are better than me - and the only way to defend myself is to stand talk and swat down anybody who tries to knock me over. The second you guys stop treating NGE supporters like trash, I promise you'll see a change in my behavior and maybe we'll start getting a little mutual respect around here. But glass houses and all.
And I said I discussed it with people who worked on SWG - past tense. They weren't working on SWG when I discussed it with them. They had moved on to other projects. I'm not bragging. I'm just saying that I said exactly what I said to people who were a whole lot more invested in the discussion than anyone here ever were, and somehow I managed to have a lengthy and considerably interesting discussion without once being insulted.
Originally posted by Squidi I don't not think I'm better than you (well a few of the more trollish characters maybe). However, you guys keep insisting that because I like the NGE, you are better than me - and the only way to defend myself is to stand talk and swat down anybody who tries to knock me over. The second you guys stop treating NGE supporters like trash, I promise you'll see a change in my behavior and maybe we'll start getting a little mutual respect around here. But glass houses and all.
And I said I discussed it with people who worked on SWG - past tense. They weren't working on SWG when I discussed it with them. They had moved on to other projects. I'm not bragging. I'm just saying that I said exactly what I said to people who were a whole lot more invested in the discussion than anyone here ever were, and somehow I managed to have a lengthy and considerably interesting discussion without once being insulted.
We get people who come inm here and scream from the top of their lungs that the NGE rocks but can never tell us why it rocks... So many of us are wary about people like *you* who come in here making sense froma counter point view...
As far as being able to discuss it with them.. Cool.. To bad it was when they were not working on the project though. I truly beleive there is a huge disconnect with SOE/DEV and the players. They seem to listen to what the players want, and then decide ti implement the complete opposite... Sony has a reputation for being less than honest with their players.. For instance all the "new content" being added to the game. I posted earlier that some people on the forums figured out that it was not new content.. Jsut the old stuff added back...
When a company rips stuff out of a game and then re adds it back in using the term new content it makes one wonder. For me it was:
A. Why did they take it out to begin with
B. Why is it being added back in.
C. If it is being added back in doesnt that tell us that maybe their intial plans were all wrong, and they are to stubborn to admit a mistake?
Xcathdra
Having access to a billion $ IP - Billions of dollars.. Having access to a massive fan base of said IP - Even more Billons... Singly handedly alienating them due to stupidity - Priceless.
Originally posted by Squidi I don't not think I'm better than you (well a few of the more trollish characters maybe). However, you guys keep insisting that because I like the NGE, you are better than me - and the only way to defend myself is to stand talk and swat down anybody who tries to knock me over. The second you guys stop treating NGE supporters like trash, I promise you'll see a change in my behavior and maybe we'll start getting a little mutual respect around here. But glass houses and all.
And I said I discussed it with people who worked on SWG - past tense. They weren't working on SWG when I discussed it with them. They had moved on to other projects. I'm not bragging. I'm just saying that I said exactly what I said to people who were a whole lot more invested in the discussion than anyone here ever were, and somehow I managed to have a lengthy and considerably interesting discussion without once being insulted.
i think maybe you enjoy being "victimised" it sets you apart from the masses and you feel like an individual ...
many times people seek to become the focus of negative attention from others because it reinforces their imagined belief that they are in fact more sane or logical than others .. and that the masses as a whole are just a band of roving lunatics ...
in simple terms it makes you feel special and gives weight to your perception of self
@ Neuro Who says we aren't a roving band of lunatics?
@ Squidii Cry me a river. Obraik enjoys my respect though he and I do not see eye to eye on much most of the time. But then Obraik has no persecution problem and no illusions that anyone ever forced him to watch a dancer, nor has he ever expressed the opinion that entertainers (or any other profession) are a superfluous impediment to his joy joy experience.
You however have both outright declared my playstyle, my professions and myself to be a waste of time and through implication declared that anyone playing an entertainer, doctor or other (from your view) inconvenient profession deserves to be treated as if their money, their time and their expectations meant nothing, neatly brushing aside the fact that many of us who play this way only bought the game because it offered these things. Next time you decide you want to ride the persecution pony, you might consider skipping persecuting someone else first. Might make your victimhood more convincing.
When a company rips stuff out of a game and then re adds it back in using the term new content it makes one wonder. For me it was: A. Why did they take it out to begin with I can answer these questions for you. When you design something, it is built upon a framework - a backbone of sorts. Everything you add or change gets lumped on top of this backbone, but the backbone never changes. The problem is, not all frameworks can support the design principles on top of it. An excellent example of this is the CU, where the combat level would change based on what boxes you got at an unpredictable rate. You'd get a box and go up zero levels, and then one and go up three. It was built on top of something that didn't easily bend to support it. So, when you face a structural change that can't support itself, it is usually better to rip off all the extraneous elements and get down to that backbone. You take the bare backbone and beat it into the shape that you want it to be. Then you start building on top again, perhaps with a better idea of where you came from and where you are going.
B. Why is it being added back in. Because the intial NGE aspects were the bare minimum needed to play the game. It's like if Super Mario Bros 3 only had goombas and no tanooki suit on one level. They kept what they could of the rest of the game, but pared down the combat to a level where all the classes were essentially the same so that they could balance the NGE's backbone. Then they got the backbone to where they wanted it. The game got to the point where it was acceptable, but not exceptional. The interface was workable for most people (now you can move with just the mouse!) which was really the major hurdle. They've got a backbone now and it's time to start building on top of it. Since SWG is a live game with people playing it during this reconstruction, it was vital to get it to the point where everything they kept worked. The level dependant damage, for example, was something that was an easy way to balance the game while they would making sure that they could balance it. Then using the data that they collected from that, they set the criteria for how powerful the weapons should be without that level modifier and how powerful the creatures should be (how long they should be to kill, how many you can kill at one time, etc). They put all that together into a combat prototype currently on TC2. Many people argue that because all this stuff isn't in the game already, that asking people to pay a subscription fee while they go through this process is morally wrong. I disagree. I'd be quite upset if I didn't have SWG for six months and I know others who would feel the same. We all have to answer for ourselves whether it is worth $15 a month, and in my case, I said yes. Nobody is forcing me to do it against my will. THAT would be immoral.
C. If it is being added back in doesnt that tell us that maybe their intial plans were all wrong, and they are to stubborn to admit a mistake?
Their plans were never really to leave the NGE in that basic state in the first place. For example, they didn't take away creature handler because they hated it. It was an extra gameplay device that their logs told them a very small portion of the population played. So they thought that it would be less work to skip over it than revamp another major different combat concept with the rest of the NGE. With the expertise trees, they are thinking of adding limited creature handling support back into the game - but differently and more in tune with the backbone they've created. The expertise trees are another good example. They sound very similar to how the skillboxes worked before, but these aren't based on grinding. You get points just by leveling up (the core gameplay backbone of the NGE). You will be able to customize your character and make important choices about your template, but in a significantly different way than before. The end result is not quite the same, and the path taken is quite a bit different. It's not that they disagreed with the idea of template customization - it's that what was there wasn't working with the combat level stuff (in many cases, they were actually interferring with each other). So they needed a new process by which to achieve similar results - something that could properly work on the NGE's backbone. Like I've been saying, the NGE has turned the corner. It's gotten to the point where they are past the backbone and are now concentrating on the "optional" features. We should be seeing lots and lots more promising stuff showing up in the coming months - stuff beyond just bug fixes and rejiggering the interface over and over again.
Originally posted by azhrarn Cry me a river. Obraik enjoys my respect though he and I do not see eye to eye on much most of the time. But then Obraik has no persecution problem and no illusions that anyone ever forced him to watch a dancer, nor has he ever expressed the opinion that entertainers (or any other profession) are a superfluous impediment to his joy joy experience.
Not at all a knock against Obraik, but I think he defers a little too often to the overwhelming support against him. I get the impression that a lot of people here consider him sort of a pet, or "my black friend". He is slowly making progresss, but I do think that he lets you guys get away with too much. That's why you tolerate him. If he were really effective at being "you NGE friend", this forum wouldn't be the troll nest that it still is, six months later. You guys cross the line far too often, and I want to get that point across and stop you from crossing it in front of me. There's no polite way to do that, unfortunately.
You however have both outright declared my playstyle, my professions and myself to be a waste of time and through implication declared that anyone playing an entertainer, doctor or other (from your view) inconvenient profession deserves to be treated as if their money, their time and their expectations meant nothing, neatly brushing aside the fact that many of us who play this way only bought the game because it offered these things.
You have a wonderous way of inventing words to put in my mouth. That's not what I said at all, though I'm hesitant to continue this discussion. What I said was that it was a mistake to create a class which is limited to a single room's worth of content - especially when the extremes (that room too empty or too full) tend to affect your success. The flaws inherant in the design of entertainers (especially after grinding became common place - get to that in a second) meant that there would be no shortage of deficiencies to complain about. Entertainers now feel like second class citizens, and the reason isn't because of what SOE did, but because of what the playerbase did to itself. The min-maxers destroyed it.
I also said that making gameplay out of social aspects is a mistake because a great majority of the game playing populace are min-maxers. Not you, obviously. What happens when you get people min-maxing social encounters is that you get people treating you like a gameplay device. You only exist to earn them xp, and if you don't pay attention to them, they don't get that xp so they will go to great lengths to get you to pay attention to them.
Take apprentice points for example. The idea was that it would encourage players to talk together because they needed to in order to get master boxes. What ended up happening? People standing outside of starports offering money for people to allow THEM to teach skills. It took what should've been a social encounter and turned one of the players into a whore.
Take player shops. The idea that players can own and operate their own shops is something I fully support. The problem is, there was no way for them to advertise these shops to other players. What ended up happening is that you'd have AFK people standing in front of starports yelling waypoints. On my server, Ahazi, there is a girl named Brandi standing outside Mos Eisley (for MONTHS) yelling "Buying Veteran Rewards. /examine me for info". What should be a social encounter has turned into a commercial break. Spam.
I have nothing against the people who like to be social or who actively take social gameplay to encourage and support their roleplaying/social means. What I do have a problem with is that fact that not all players are like that, and are far more likely to abuse the system to everyone's detriment to succeed at the absolute fastest rate. When holocrons came out, the game turned into a game full of minmaxers - thousands of people trying to race to the top of as many professions as possible as quickly as possible, and it destroyed the crafting market/community, forever destroyed entertainers' ability to be taken seriously and make /tips, and lead to so much grinding that a great many people's enjoyment of the game was forever taken away.
People didn't play TK Masters because they liked the lore or the ability to beat things without weapons (some did, but not even remotely most). They took it because it was overly powerful for what it was as gameplay (armor that never decayed? meditation replacing doctors? Super DPS without a weapon?). They min-maxed the professions to find the one that yielded the greatest gameplay momentum. But when you pick professions, that's okay. In many cases, that's what playing games is all about to some people (ask a Diablo II fanatic one day). But in an social encounter, they start min-maxing PEOPLE, and people aren't a game. This isn't Machiavelli here. You shouldn't use players to get ahead in the game.
If you enjoy being a entertainer, then you aren't the reason at all why I think the entertainer class is a bad idea. In the right hands, and when it is an optional device that players can choose to indulge in, it is a great idea that works wonderfully. I've seen those cantina crawls and thought they were great. But in the wrong hands, you've got people who will destroy all that and destroy the integrity of your profression and of those who want more for it. And whenever you force people into gameplay-defined social situations, you are guarrantteed for it to find the wrong hands.
Next time you decide you want to ride the persecution pony, you might consider skipping persecuting someone else first. Might make your victimhood more convincing.
I'm not sure where you are getting this persecution thing from. I never attacked you in the least, and if you had tried to engage in the conversation from a realistic standpoint, I would've happily cleared up any misunderstandings occurred. But you just jumped in, arms swinging, and literally invented reasons to be offended at me.
As for my own persecution, I don't see it that way. Yeah, I've been singled out as a troll and on SOE's payroll more times than I can count, so does everybody else who likes the NGE - Obraik included. WE are persecuted for liking the NGE, and I don't see how anyone can look in these forums without agreeing. Just look at that guy who posted a positive review of SWG in his blog. Look at the responses he got - he's on SOE's payroll! How can you say that's not persecution? Last I checked, the definition of "persecution" was (and notice the part about differing beliefs): "The act or practice of persecuting on the basis of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, or beliefs that differ from those of the persecutor."
Originally posted by Squidi Originally posted by Xcathdra
When a company rips stuff out of a game and then re adds it back in using the term new content it makes one wonder. For me it was: A. Why did they take it out to begin with I can answer these questions for you. When you design something, it is built upon a framework - a backbone of sorts. Everything you add or change gets lumped on top of this backbone, but the backbone never changes. The problem is, not all frameworks can support the design principles on top of it. An excellent example of this is the CU, where the combat level would change based on what boxes you got at an unpredictable rate. You'd get a box and go up zero levels, and then one and go up three. It was built on top of something that didn't easily bend to support it. So, when you face a structural change that can't support itself, it is usually better to rip off all the extraneous elements and get down to that backbone. You take the bare backbone and beat it into the shape that you want it to be. Then you start building on top again, perhaps with a better idea of where you came from and where you are going.
B. Why is it being added back in. Because the intial NGE aspects were the bare minimum needed to play the game. It's like if Super Mario Bros 3 only had goombas and no tanooki suit on one level. They kept what they could of the rest of the game, but pared down the combat to a level where all the classes were essentially the same so that they could balance the NGE's backbone. Then they got the backbone to where they wanted it. The game got to the point where it was acceptable, but not exceptional. The interface was workable for most people (now you can move with just the mouse!) which was really the major hurdle. They've got a backbone now and it's time to start building on top of it. Since SWG is a live game with people playing it during this reconstruction, it was vital to get it to the point where everything they kept worked. The level dependant damage, for example, was something that was an easy way to balance the game while they would making sure that they could balance it. Then using the data that they collected from that, they set the criteria for how powerful the weapons should be without that level modifier and how powerful the creatures should be (how long they should be to kill, how many you can kill at one time, etc). They put all that together into a combat prototype currently on TC2. Many people argue that because all this stuff isn't in the game already, that asking people to pay a subscription fee while they go through this process is morally wrong. I disagree. I'd be quite upset if I didn't have SWG for six months and I know others who would feel the same. We all have to answer for ourselves whether it is worth $15 a month, and in my case, I said yes. Nobody is forcing me to do it against my will. THAT would be immoral.
C. If it is being added back in doesnt that tell us that maybe their intial plans were all wrong, and they are to stubborn to admit a mistake?
Their plans were never really to leave the NGE in that basic state in the first place. For example, they didn't take away creature handler because they hated it. It was an extra gameplay device that their logs told them a very small portion of the population played. So they thought that it would be less work to skip over it than revamp another major different combat concept with the rest of the NGE. With the expertise trees, they are thinking of adding limited creature handling support back into the game - but differently and more in tune with the backbone they've created. The expertise trees are another good example. They sound very similar to how the skillboxes worked before, but these aren't based on grinding. You get points just by leveling up (the core gameplay backbone of the NGE). You will be able to customize your character and make important choices about your template, but in a significantly different way than before. The end result is not quite the same, and the path taken is quite a bit different. It's not that they disagreed with the idea of template customization - it's that what was there wasn't working with the combat level stuff (in many cases, they were actually interferring with each other). So they needed a new process by which to achieve similar results - something that could properly work on the NGE's backbone. Like I've been saying, the NGE has turned the corner. It's gotten to the point where they are past the backbone and are now concentrating on the "optional" features. We should be seeing lots and lots more promising stuff showing up in the coming months - stuff beyond just bug fixes and rejiggering the interface over and over again.
Intresting Analysis... While I can see your point on these issues I guess the one thing that I have the biggest problem with is:
How come answers like this never come from SOE / LA... I would be more inclined to trust what they are telling me if this had been said from the very begining. Instead they use the "keep em in the dark" mentality... I can only imagine why everything gets turned into a conspiracy theory.. The last time I asked a question, and it was phrased appropriately (It was to Garva about the Reuters article) I had a 3 day ban, the post was locked / deleted and I still had received no answer.
The other part I guess I dont understand is why did they not think of these issues before launch? Of all the buisness ventures / plans I have been invloved in we took a look at where we wanted to be in 1 year, 5 years, 10 years, and then looked at the best possible ways to get there. Of course things change, but not to the extent of what we are seeing in SWG. Smedly himself stated they threw the baby out with the bathwater and tub. That tells me that they had a knee jerk reaction to something, whether it be customer complaints, threats from LA or the number of cancelations.
The game, to me and I would guess most others, appeared intact and running ok (for the most part) from launch. I have always wondered what would of happened had they used all the devs to fix things instead of using most to put together the expansions... They are "fixing" the core game now (im guessing because of all the complaints / issues about the NGE), Why couldn't they fix it then.. Why couldnt they concentrate on the Core game when it first came out, making it stable to build on and expand with. I honestly think the game was balanced and going ok until Jedi were rushed into the game with no clear idea of how they should interact (again $$$ I beleive drove this) with other professions / content. In my opinion the NGE, or even for that matter the CU, would not of been needed, and we could of saved all the bitching and the destruction of the community.
Another issue I never think they took into account was the timeline. It was set in the Starwars Universe... Thats grand, but at what point. I think when they put together their plans they forgot to take into account (or never considered) that there are 2 types of starwars fans. There are those of us who grew up on Episodes 4, 5, and 6. There are those who grew up on episodes 1, 2, and 3. Completely different types of movies, completely different types of people, different generations all together. I for one liked the last 3 eipsodes more than the first 3. You can even see how each generation interacts based on the episodes...
Example of this would be Episode 4, 5 and 6 people... In these episodes they had to earn their stuff in the movies.. They all earned their rank through their accomplishments... Luke was the mositure farmer, who learned he was Force sensitive, and then went through training to become Jedi (although not the full grind).
In the first 3 episodes it seemed as if everything was handed to the people. There were complete Jedi's, Jedi Masters, Armies, no rebellion. Simpler times I guess where the standar of lvining in the universe was different than our episodes.
I truely wish they would of picked a timeline and built the game around that timeline... You can always advance it as needed, but if you dont have a stable start, there is going to be problems with continuity and what not. being a SCI-FI fan (and star trek person) I look at continuity and timelines. I would wager a good amount of money that the Devs see it as the Starwars Universe, and the players of the game see it as the actual year they are suppose to be playing in in game.
The other part is Customer feedback. Most items are tailored around what customers say about the product, which usually insipres new inventions / add ons what have you. In SOE's case they seem to be ignoring all player feedback. They (players) tell the devs what the issues are during the limited times publishes are on test center, yet they never seem to fix the bugs that are reported. SOE seems more intrested in pushing a publish live jsut to say look what we did. Then they "try" to fix bugs jsut to say "look, we are fixing things". I can say with realtive certainty that people would not mind publishes being on the test center longer if it means very very little to no bugs when its pushed live. Bitching about delays will always happen, but when you delay it to tell people you are taking your time, and still push it with bugs, it jsut plain pisses people off.
I'll quit ranting... I do want to say thanks for taking the time to respond to my post. It is certainly a different view point from the way I see things, but you make some good points. I just wish SOE / LA would of thought of all this before they changed the game as many times as they have.
Xcathdra- Ojraw / Warjo
Also, if you dont mind me asking.. What name do you go by in the SWG forums?
Having access to a billion $ IP - Billions of dollars.. Having access to a massive fan base of said IP - Even more Billons... Singly handedly alienating them due to stupidity - Priceless.
I truely wish they would of picked a timeline and built the game around that timeline... You can always advance it as needed, but if you dont have a stable start, there is going to be problems with continuity and what not. being a SCI-FI fan (and star trek person) I look at continuity and timelines. I would wager a good amount of money that the Devs see it as the Starwars Universe, and the players of the game see it as the actual year they are suppose to be playing in in game.
Ive said this before and Ill say it again, SWG would have been ten times better if it was set around Episode 1 time. Not only would this have given 6 movies worth of future content, made the addition of Clone Armor, Battle Droids in the game, RotW and ToOW, and Jedi Starfighters make sence, but the Jedi themselfes would fit right in. You wouldnt have to worry about the "jedeye dont blong n swg mang" argument at all, and the whole visibility madness would have never occured.
"There's no star system Slave I can't reach, and there's no planet I can't find. There's nowhere in the Galaxy for you to run. Might as well give up now." Boba Fett
Also Squidi I hold nothing against you on a personal level. I just have the same POV as Xcath and Az on the whole ordeal in a nutshell.
"There's no star system Slave I can't reach, and there's no planet I can't find. There's nowhere in the Galaxy for you to run. Might as well give up now." Boba Fett
Originally posted by Spathotan Originally posted by Xcathdra
I truely wish they would of picked a timeline and built the game around that timeline... You can always advance it as needed, but if you dont have a stable start, there is going to be problems with continuity and what not. being a SCI-FI fan (and star trek person) I look at continuity and timelines. I would wager a good amount of money that the Devs see it as the Starwars Universe, and the players of the game see it as the actual year they are suppose to be playing in in game.
Ive said this before and Ill say it again, SWG would have been ten times better if it was set around Episode 1 time. Not only would this have given 6 movies worth of future content, made the addition of Clone Armor, Battle Droids in the game, RotW and ToOW, and Jedi Starfighters make sence, but the Jedi themselfes would fit right in. You wouldnt have to worry about the "jedeye dont blong n swg mang" argument at all, and the whole visibility madness would have never occured.
I'm not too clued up on the EU, but how would that work faction wise? Wouldn't you end up being restricted to faction by species since it was the Republic (everyone) vs the CIS (mostly Droids)?
Originally posted by Squidi FORCED roleplay has no place in a game with a variety of players, not all of whom share the same gameplay goals or philosophy. I have nothing against roleplay. I do it on the EQ2 server I play on (Lucan Dlere). But when the expectations of the player and designer don't mix, then you've created a system where people will min-max socialization in order to excel at the game quickly - and when you min-max social encounters, you've got a huge problem that DESTROYS social circles.
YOU WEREN'T FORCED TO BE THAT PROFESSION IF YOU DIDN'T WISH TO BE. Pre-cu had 36 professions. There were many possibilities to what you could do. If you didn't fit in with entertaining, then you could do combat or crafting. There were plenty of different things to do. It was hardly forced.
I personally despised the entertainer profession (no offense), but I couldn't play without them because they healed my wounds. This CREATED social circles and let people talk to each other in a mostly peaceful situation (nothing like getting shot to death in the cantina while your sitting watching someone dance )
Social Interdependibility is a great thing for games. It creates active communities and spurs things forward. It's obvious from your posts that you have anti-social tendencies. Saying that interaction between players in an MMORPG is absurd.
And also, cantinas with entertainers in them were great for the community. Ever dress up like a storm trooper in game and act like your patrolling? It got a rise out of people, and some even rped with you.
Without the middle men in SWG, it has become hollow. People only have a single goal, which is to achieve your said "min-max" and hit the max level just so that they do "end game". What really DESTROYED the "social circles" was basically the dumbing down of the game into classes and levels.
Sure you may have been forced to go see the doctor or go to the dance club to heal your wounds, but thousands of people enjoyed filling that role, because it was vital to the game mechanics, but the whole community could have decided to cripple themselves and all be combat for your sake if they WANTED to. However SOE has already done that for them.
Entertainment is a large part of the star wars universe, and deserved to be a unique profession. Everyone isn't into what your into. Thousands of people have proven this by being entertainers before. Get over yourself, and go play your anti-social game.
I truely wish they would of picked a timeline and built the game around that timeline... You can always advance it as needed, but if you dont have a stable start, there is going to be problems with continuity and what not. being a SCI-FI fan (and star trek person) I look at continuity and timelines. I would wager a good amount of money that the Devs see it as the Starwars Universe, and the players of the game see it as the actual year they are suppose to be playing in in game.
Ive said this before and Ill say it again, SWG would have been ten times better if it was set around Episode 1 time. Not only would this have given 6 movies worth of future content, made the addition of Clone Armor, Battle Droids in the game, RotW and ToOW, and Jedi Starfighters make sence, but the Jedi themselfes would fit right in. You wouldnt have to worry about the "jedeye dont blong n swg mang" argument at all, and the whole visibility madness would have never occured.
I'm not too clued up on the EU, but how would that work faction wise? Wouldn't you end up being restricted to faction by species since it was the Republic (everyone) vs the CIS (mostly Droids)?
There could be the Republic, Black Sun, Hutts, Trade Federation, and then eventually the Confederacy of Independent Systems as you said. Sure the army was 100% droids, but all the higher ups and stuff were humanoids. Could always be a diplomat or something /shrug lol.
"There's no star system Slave I can't reach, and there's no planet I can't find. There's nowhere in the Galaxy for you to run. Might as well give up now." Boba Fett
In the wrong hands, anything can be made into something negative and disruptive. Anything at all. If a situation (such as has historically happened and has threatened to occur again in SWG) arises where many players are finding ways to abuse a certain facet of the game, in this case the entertainer profession itself (used to afk-grind, then respec to something else at full mastery), you need to look not merely at the system being exploited, but at the root of the widespread behavior.
In this case, the root is the majority of the game, in especial, combat, not being fun. If getting to max level in as little time as possible, playing as little as possible is an issue, you have to conclude that people don't think the game is any fun under max level. The enablement of this kind of exploitation through respec of the kind we saw in the CU is a very large part of the problem you are talking about. This was not something the entertainers indulged in, it was something combat-bunnies did to avoid having to macro on the "Trail" where they had to compete for mobs rather than recieving a steady, regular stream of xp without having to compete at all.
Now combat-bunnies play their games because they enjoy the challenge and thrill of conquering and competing. If they didn't get a kick out of it, the face of gaming would look very different than it does today. If they're having so little fun with their playstyle that they'd exploit an entire profession, doesn't it make more sense to fix the lack-o-fun factor for them rather than continually punishing the entertainers for something they had no part in? This is basicly what I read you to be suggesting -- beat the good dogs with the bad ones until all you have is angry, bad dogs -- or worse yet, kill the good ones and leave the bad ones. It's certainly been SOE's policy.
The answer is NOT to nerf-nerf-remove. The answer is to bring the lacking parts and professions up to speed until you achieve a balance that most find fun enough to actually PLAY. People actually PLAY the games or parts of games they enjoy. Those who aren't having fun will always find the path of least resistance TO fun. And worse yet, those who aren't having fun will often come up with ways to make sure people around them aren't either, turning griefing itself into a game.
How come answers like this never come from SOE / LA... I would be more inclined to trust what they are telling me if this had been said from the very begining. Instead they use the "keep em in the dark" mentality... I can only imagine why everything gets turned into a conspiracy theory.. The last time I asked a question, and it was phrased appropriately (It was to Garva about the Reuters article) I had a 3 day ban, the post was locked / deleted and I still had received no answer. Unfortunately, the real answer isn't pretty. Long story short, EVERYTHING they tell the community will come back to haunt them. When you've got however many players SWG has (even at 50k, that's still 50,000 people), you've got so many people reading things that you will always get people who misunderstand. Long after the original post is gone and forgotten, you'll still have a few people who will publically bring up old subjects and unintentionally misrepresent them.Take the smuggler revamp. They stated quite clearly that they wanted to do a smuggler revamp. It was their intention to do it, but other things took precedence and months later, no revamp. And yet there were dozens of people in the forums which would start threads demanding the revamp they were PROMISED. After a while, that sort of "we are owed this" kept feeding on itself and grew into a whole movement, based entirely on the premise that SOE "promised" them something.
SOE is a company and they have the unenviable job of keeping its clientel happy at all costs. With a few hundred thousand people - not all of them rocket scientists or particularly well adjusted - this really amounts to damage control more than anything. Everything they say is on the defensive, and considering how they've been pounded and pounded and pounded over the NGE, you really can't blame them. They have to wait until designs are near finalized before they can even admit they exist in the first place, and they can't go into great detail about future plans that might change.
But most importantly, they can't share the reasons they are doing something. If someone disagrees with those reason - and I promise you, they will - then they will see SOE as making a mistake that they could've fixed, if only they had listened to them - which becomes the new platform for self importance that defines the community. The community is somehow ALWAYS right, even when they aren't because of it.
They CAN share their justifications for their various actions, but it's a public relations war. They've got to be ready to defend every statement they've made, even the grammar and spelling errors. And that's a LOT of work. Just writing out my previous post about why they took things out of the NGE and added them back in took a chunk of time that I could've been spent doing something else. Luckily, I'm bored. They've got a game to run. They can hire people like Thunderheart to do the defending, but he's not one of the decision makers and isn't really in a good position to do it. Ultimately, the best solution is to say what you can without too much of a backlash, then silence the trolls before they create a self feeding loop of indignation.
The other part I guess I dont understand is why did they not think of these issues before launch? Of all the buisness ventures / plans I have been invloved in we took a look at where we wanted to be in 1 year, 5 years, 10 years, and then looked at the best possible ways to get there. Of course things change, but not to the extent of what we are seeing in SWG. Smedly himself stated they threw the baby out with the bathwater and tub. That tells me that they had a knee jerk reaction to something, whether it be customer complaints, threats from LA or the number of cancelations. SWG was launched about a year too early. It didn't feature many major features (including space) and was quite bug ridden. It wasn't their choice to launch it when it was, but a business decision made to get the Christmas crowd. As such, SOE had to not only run the game, but also fix it and add on to it at the same time. Making changes to a live game is damn near impossible because the players have a pre-built expectation of their own power. Once they've tasted imbalance, even if it is in the best interest of the long term goals of the product, they will complain NERF NERF NERF when it is taken away. I fully believe that SWG was fundamentally flawed as a design at launch. I think the first CU was an attempt to correct those flaws without throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It was a partial success, but ultimately it didn't solve all the problems it was supposed to - which ultimately was to keep vets and bring in new players. I don't think it was particularly successful at either, so they said, okay, what's the problem and ran a whole bunch of focus groups with people who didn't play the game. They took notes about what they said ("this sucks, make it like KOTOR") and saw that it required a far more substantial effort than patching a few holes. They had to create something that would appeal to WoW players (most people's first and ONLY MMORPG), Star Wars power fantasy fans (being a hero, not a farmer), Star Wars videogame fans, and people who never played a MMORPG before in their life. Their solution, for better or worse, was a fundamental change to game of epic proportions.
The game, to me and I would guess most others, appeared intact and running ok (for the most part) from launch. I have always wondered what would of happened had they used all the devs to fix things instead of using most to put together the expansions... They are "fixing" the core game now (im guessing because of all the complaints / issues about the NGE), Why couldn't they fix it then.. Why couldnt they concentrate on the Core game when it first came out, making it stable to build on and expand with. I honestly think the game was balanced and going ok until Jedi were rushed into the game with no clear idea of how they should interact (again $$$ I beleive drove this) with other professions / content. In my opinion the NGE, or even for that matter the CU, would not of been needed, and we could of saved all the bitching and the destruction of the community. You have to remember that the CU was a response to player complaints that the game was too easy to solo everything in the game and grouping wasn't required. By then, the hologrinding had started and doctors and entertainers were pretty much AFK grinding and worthless (some had macros that would sell buffs to players - if you aren't actively playing, there's a problem). Everybody was running around in full composite soloing Night Sisters. The quest system, based on waypoints, was wildly out of focus with the game (mostly escort missions that would earn you a whopping 200 credits). The themeparks were a joke. People just sat grinding bols all day rather than doing more interesting (though less rewarding) content. And the market was mostly owned by master crafters selling only the highest quality equipment at the highest possible prices - preventing new players from getting their foot in the door (the whole poor stay poor, rich get richer). The game required a lot of work to fix. A LOT of work. I'm not saying they couldn't have done it. There were some unique and interesting ideas preCU, that's for sure. But in a game where you've got a few hundred thousand players, making major changes that nerf one thing or another is just going to be a pain in the ass. Each change would've been a battle, and while they were, for example, fixing the quest system, they'd have ten different professions complaining that they can't duel a Jedi one on one. I think the dev team's first and biggest mistake was listening to the community on what features to fix first, which were always professions, leading to an arms race as one profession would be "fixed" making it better than everything else, causing them to fix the next one based on who complained the most.
Another issue I never think they took into account was the timeline. It was set in the Starwars Universe... Thats grand, but at what point. I think when they put together their plans they forgot to take into account (or never considered) that there are 2 types of starwars fans. There are those of us who grew up on Episodes 4, 5, and 6. There are those who grew up on episodes 1, 2, and 3. Completely different types of movies, completely different types of people, different generations all together. I for one liked the last 3 eipsodes more than the first 3. You can even see how each generation interacts based on the episodes... SWG is set after A New Hope. I do understand that different people enjoy their own personal trilogies, but it's all Star Wars. Episode 1 is Star Wars. Episode IV is Star Wars. The trilogies are only like 30 years apart, so it's not absurd to see prequel technology later on. To me, Star Wars will always be the original one before Lucas went back and changed the special effects and added stuff in - but he did make an effort to combine the two trilogies together into a unified whole. It's best to think of all six movies as the same universe. (the one exception being the number of freaking Jedi dueling in the streets, but you can NOT sell a SW game without a playable Jedi these days).
The other part is Customer feedback. Most items are tailored around what customers say about the product, which usually insipres new inventions / add ons what have you. That's not strictly the case. Very little of what the customer says or wants is involved in those kinds of decisions. In all mmorpgs, not just SWG, players have to complain for YEARS to get features added in.
In SOE's case they seem to be ignoring all player feedback. They (players) tell the devs what the issues are during the limited times publishes are on test center, yet they never seem to fix the bugs that are reported. SOE seems more intrested in pushing a publish live jsut to say look what we did. SOE has stated in the past that they were a couple publishes ahead (which is why they did a creature handler revamp a month before the NGE removed them). They did seem like they were on strict schedule that took more importance than bug fixing, but I think that schedule was based on the stuff that was coming up. They had Jump to Lightspeed coming up and had to have the next two publishes in place before the game launched for all the technology to be there and semi-tested, as a hypothetical example. With no expansion coming up and them not being a few publishes ahead, they have definitely spent their time putting out better publishes after the NGE. They kind of have to, given the public response to it.
I just wish SOE / LA would of thought of all this before they changed the game as many times as they have.
I do too, actually.
Also, if you dont mind me asking.. What name do you go by in the SWG forums? I think SquidiAMD. I don't post there too often anymore.
In the wrong hands, anything can be made into something negative and disruptive. Anything at all. If a situation (such as has historically happened and has threatened to occur again in SWG) arises where many players are finding ways to abuse a certain facet of the game, in this case the entertainer profession itself (used to afk-grind, then respec to something else at full mastery), you need to look not merely at the system being exploited, but at the root of the widespread behavior.
In this case, the root is the majority of the game, in especial, combat, not being fun. If getting to max level in as little time as possible, playing as little as possible is an issue, you have to conclude that people don't think the game is any fun under max level. The enablement of this kind of exploitation through respec of the kind we saw in the CU is a very large part of the problem you are talking about. This was not something the entertainers indulged in, it was something combat-bunnies did to avoid having to macro on the "Trail" where they had to compete for mobs rather than recieving a steady, regular stream of xp without having to compete at all.
Exactly my point. The problem wasn't the people who wanted to be entertainers because they were entertainers. The problem was the people who saw entertainers as a means to an end, and the faster the better. The problem is that those guys outnumbered the true entertainers eventually. They were sizable enough that they took away the integrity and value of the profession in the eyes of everyone else. Thus going to an entertainer became a chore rather than something to look forward to.
Now combat-bunnies play their games because they enjoy the challenge and thrill of conquering and competing. If they didn't get a kick out of it, the face of gaming would look very different than it does today. If they're having so little fun with their playstyle that they'd exploit an entire profession, doesn't it make more sense to fix the lack-o-fun factor for them rather than continually punishing the entertainers for something they had no part in? This is basicly what I read you to be suggesting -- beat the good dogs with the bad ones until all you have is angry, bad dogs -- or worse yet, kill the good ones and leave the bad ones. It's certainly been SOE's policy.
Minmaxing is a side effect of the conquering and competing. It's kind of a personality trait. They see themselves as conquerers when they take a problem and solve it more efficiently than anybody else. Even if you made combat more fun, it would still be a chore (though less so, I guess). Any time you've got a process that you've got to do because it's there, people will look for the fastest way to skip through it, and as long as entertainers were the fastest or easiest way they'd abuse it (and since you could AFK your way to the top it always would be).
My complaint isn't really about the minmaxing. Not my cup of tea, but to each their own. My problem is when the minmax people, it creates a unhealthy environment for other players. When you are a tool to be used for their own personal success, they will take advantage of you without giving you a second thought. Have you ever grouped with someone who only hung out with you long enough to get THEIR quests, leaving you in the middle of an instance dungeon without help the second they are finished? It pisses you off, and the more it happens to you, the less you look forward to grouping again.
What I want instead is for social things to not be something that you can minmax or even advance in. I mean, you would probably play an entertainer even if there was nothing to gain from it. Why reward you for something you would do anyway? Something you would likely do even if they tried to stop you? For social people, socialization is its own reward.
I think that the entertainer thing wasn't a bad idea (other than the being locked in a single room the entire game). I even wrote a blog on my ideas on how to jack up the entertainer gameplay (I will post it in a new thread so you can read it - I was told it was interesting, but I can't for the life of me remember what I wrote in it). Ultimately, I think entertainers need more variety and interactive gameplay that suits their interests and needs, but I also think that it should be either a secondary profession that is optional to all, or something which is completely separate from the other gameplay (ie no respecs or grinding jedi) such that minmaxing it wouldn't matter to the rest of the game.
The answer is NOT to nerf-nerf-remove. The answer is to bring the lacking parts and professions up to speed until you achieve a balance that most find fun enough to actually PLAY. People actually PLAY the games or parts of games they enjoy. Those who aren't having fun will always find the path of least resistance TO fun. And worse yet, those who aren't having fun will often come up with ways to make sure people around them aren't either, turning griefing itself into a game.
Yes, I agree. My problem is that entertainer is a fundamental profession that everybody in the game (at least preCU) was forced to interact with for arbitrary reasons - and when you force people to do something, they will find the loopholes. The entertainer profession was destroyed, not due to the technical gameplay elements but because of the people grinding those loopholes without a care to the profession. My solution isn't to remove entertainer altogether, but I think that the way it is currently implemented in the game (and always has been implemented in the game) had this fundamental flaw in it which doomed it from the start.
Squidii, you're missing some very important points in your views on entertainers.
1) Before the NGE we WEREN'T confined to the cantinas. I can't stress this enough. We were not stuck in a single location type at all.
IDs could do their makeovers anywhere. Only stat migrations required a special location (the ID tents) and those were taken away with the CU. This is still true in the NGE.
Dancers and musicians could and did heal battle fatigue in scout and ranger camps out in the wild. We could and did give buffs in those same camps. We were free to travel with groups who saw a point in having us along. This was true of both the Pre-CU AND the CU. Removing camps limited us severely.
An entertainer can gain xp ANYWHERE. They do not require any specific place and do not require that anyone be listening or watching to gain xp. Listeners, watchers and ent teams INCREASE the rate of xp, but they are by no means the only way to attain xp.
2) No one ever forced anyone to use the services of an entertainer in any iteration of the game.
Every time you say that you were forced to use an entertainer, I want to whap you. Nothing in the game mechanics forced anyone to use an entertainer. Battle fatigue and buffs were OPTIONAL services. If min-maxers felt they had to have us, perhaps they should have considered different armors and tactics to avoid feeling that we were so hatefully mandatory.
3) You can't seem to accept that noncombat gamers need as much of a sense of progression and reward as combat gamers.
There HAS to be a rewards and progression system for entertainers and other noncombat professions. I know you think you know where we're coming from, but you really don't. If we didn't need to be a profession and we didn't need a concrete sense that we were getting somewhere and attaining something, we'd probably all be playing AO instead of fighting for the ability to even BE a profession in SWG.
Publish 28 demonstrated this very clearly to anyone who really paid any attention at all. Before Publish 28, atk entertainers were on the rise on Chilastra, Lowca and Starsider (Starsider outshining all listed, as it's a roleplayer/entertainer haven). When Publish 28 rolled out, they introduced a condensation of entertainer skill milestones, doing away with the boxes between milestones and making the time between "level up" rewards agonizingly farther apart. Almost overnight, afk entertainers replaced nearly every atk player.
Why? Because we require the same reinforcement that your playstyle does.
The very idea of being relegated to an auxilliary skillset for combat players infuriates most of us. Many of us are ONLY here because we finally had a game that would let you be PART OF THE GAME and to actually participate in an MMO without ever HAVING to engage in combat to progress.
The pre-CU game was a paradise for us. Hologrinders were an annoyance and a hinderance, but they did not and could not ruin things. Buffbots were annoying as all hell, and they cheapened our game, but they did not ruin us.
What IS ruining us is the external perception that since everyone who ISN'T one of us is abusing our profession, it's okay to punish US by taking away, piece by piece, our profession and our GAME because a crapload of people can't be bothered to get THEIR OWN HOUSE IN ORDER and make THEIR crap fun enough to play, instead of suffer through.
THE ANSWER HAS NEVER BEEN NOR IS NOW TO BREAK, BACKSEAT OR REMOVE ENTERTAINER AS A PROFESSION. THE ANSWER HAS AND ALWAYS WILL BE TO FIX THE COMBAT GAME so that people will no longer feel the desire to exploit the entertainer profession.
Originally posted by azhrarn Originally posted by SquidiIs it me or does everybody who comes in here with a "I went back; it sucked" post play a Jedi? /eyerollFirst and foremost, the majority of my characters are entertainers. This was my first love in the game and I find myself reluctant to relinquish it, even in the face of massive nerfing, intentionally planned gradual obsolescence and the very real eventuality of having yet another class I enjoy removed from the game.No jedi about it. The things I loved in SWG are being removed, one combat upgrade/core game overhaul at a time. There is nothing that mitigates the inarguable sucktitude of being shut out of classes you love to play.And while jedi may indeed suck now, it sucks far worse to endure the inclusion of horrible particle effects paired with the removal of once-fantastic battle animations, the seriously amateur terrain/landscape downgrade (ceramic tile grasslands on Dantooine and plastic block beaches on Naboo anyone?) and the mounting pile of brand new bugs created by the lack of forethought on the part of the devs while they slapped a half-assed FPS system over an engine not designed to handle it (ever tried to give someone an inspiration while playing a nalgaron or ommni box? Course not, you're not an ent.)
Comments
Make it better, daddy.
Lol
"There's no star system Slave I can't reach, and there's no planet I can't find. There's nowhere in the Galaxy for you to run. Might as well give up now."
Boba Fett
I dont need to provide any evidence, it speaks for itself just go through all the threads on the 1st page of this forum. Youve been on a posting rampage for the past 2 or 3 days kissing phantom ass, quick to judge everybody and everything but yet claim you are just having simple conversations. SoE has no presence here so just go back to their own forums.
"There's no star system Slave I can't reach, and there's no planet I can't find. There's nowhere in the Galaxy for you to run. Might as well give up now."
Boba Fett
He meant in the current forum of SWG and not overall... Read what he posted.. then respond...
"I dont need to provide any evidence, it speaks for itself just go through all the threads on the 1st page of this forum. Youve been on a posting rampage for the past 2 or 3 days kissing phantom ass, quick to judge everybody and everything but yet claim you are just having simple conversations. SoE has no presence here so just go back to their own forums."
Xcathdra
Having access to a billion $ IP - Billions of dollars..
Having access to a massive fan base of said IP - Even more Billons...
Singly handedly alienating them due to stupidity - Priceless.
I don't know who's ass you think I'm kissing, as I've been nothing but attacked for sharing my thoughts. I'm certainly not impressing anyone here. What I am doing is providing a valuable counterpoint to the general consensus.
Quick to judge? I don't really know how to answer that. I guess I might be doing that, but in a forum where everybody who likes the NGE must be a troll, idiot, or on SOE's payroll, I'd say I'm not above the standard deviation for this forum in that manner either.
And I was having a simple conversation. I think entertainers were a mistake because making social aspects into forced gameplay is a really good way to ruin social aspects. This is a conversation I've had before, in which I've said many of the exact same things to some of the very people who worked on SWG, and I dare say they handled the discussion in a far more reasonable manner. I dare say it was an excellent discussion with fair points being made on both sides. But here, for stating identical things to this forum, I am labeled a troll and insulted.
We CAN have this discussion. I'd like to have this discussion. In fact, I'm in the middle of programming a MUD at the moment and these are the sorts of questions I have to consider currently, and the ability to bounce opinions off those who disagree with me provides valuable insight that I wouldn't stumble upon alone. I am EAGER to have this discussion. But I won't have it with you guys if you are going to act like spoiled little children any time someone says something you disagree with. The second you realize that disagreeing with someone is a blessing, I'd be more than happy to continue this discussion.
We are disagreeing with you... The more you act like you are better than everyone else the more people are going to dislike you and what you have to say here. We had that treatment from Sony already and left their boards to discuss things here. If you wish to point out what makes the NGE better than what was go for it.. I would like to hear your points.
A blanket statment though jsut doesnt cut it anymore. As far as being able to discuss things with the DEVS from SWG.. More power to you then. They do nothing but ignore the people who play the game. Communicatiuon is wonderous, and should be 2 ways...
Xcathdra
Having access to a billion $ IP - Billions of dollars..
Having access to a massive fan base of said IP - Even more Billons...
Singly handedly alienating them due to stupidity - Priceless.
And I said I discussed it with people who worked on SWG - past tense. They weren't working on SWG when I discussed it with them. They had moved on to other projects. I'm not bragging. I'm just saying that I said exactly what I said to people who were a whole lot more invested in the discussion than anyone here ever were, and somehow I managed to have a lengthy and considerably interesting discussion without once being insulted.
We get people who come inm here and scream from the top of their lungs that the NGE rocks but can never tell us why it rocks... So many of us are wary about people like *you* who come in here making sense froma counter point view...
As far as being able to discuss it with them.. Cool.. To bad it was when they were not working on the project though. I truly beleive there is a huge disconnect with SOE/DEV and the players. They seem to listen to what the players want, and then decide ti implement the complete opposite... Sony has a reputation for being less than honest with their players.. For instance all the "new content" being added to the game. I posted earlier that some people on the forums figured out that it was not new content.. Jsut the old stuff added back...
When a company rips stuff out of a game and then re adds it back in using the term new content it makes one wonder. For me it was:
A. Why did they take it out to begin with
B. Why is it being added back in.
C. If it is being added back in doesnt that tell us that maybe their intial plans were all wrong, and they are to stubborn to admit a mistake?
Xcathdra
Having access to a billion $ IP - Billions of dollars..
Having access to a massive fan base of said IP - Even more Billons...
Singly handedly alienating them due to stupidity - Priceless.
i think maybe you enjoy being "victimised" it sets you apart from the masses and you feel like an individual ...
many times people seek to become the focus of negative attention from others because it reinforces their imagined belief that they are in fact more sane or logical than others .. and that the masses as a whole are just a band of roving lunatics ...
in simple terms it makes you feel special and gives weight to your perception of self
Who says we aren't a roving band of lunatics?
@ Squidii
Cry me a river. Obraik enjoys my respect though he and I do not see eye to eye on much most of the time. But then Obraik has no persecution problem and no illusions that anyone ever forced him to watch a dancer, nor has he ever expressed the opinion that entertainers (or any other profession) are a superfluous impediment to his joy joy experience.
You however have both outright declared my playstyle, my professions and myself to be a waste of time and through implication declared that anyone playing an entertainer, doctor or other (from your view) inconvenient profession deserves to be treated as if their money, their time and their expectations meant nothing, neatly brushing aside the fact that many of us who play this way only bought the game because it offered these things. Next time you decide you want to ride the persecution pony, you might consider skipping persecuting someone else first. Might make your victimhood more convincing.
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Kote lo'shebs'ul narit
Intresting Analysis... While I can see your point on these issues I guess the one thing that I have the biggest problem with is:
How come answers like this never come from SOE / LA... I would be more inclined to trust what they are telling me if this had been said from the very begining. Instead they use the "keep em in the dark" mentality... I can only imagine why everything gets turned into a conspiracy theory.. The last time I asked a question, and it was phrased appropriately (It was to Garva about the Reuters article) I had a 3 day ban, the post was locked / deleted and I still had received no answer.
The other part I guess I dont understand is why did they not think of these issues before launch? Of all the buisness ventures / plans I have been invloved in we took a look at where we wanted to be in 1 year, 5 years, 10 years, and then looked at the best possible ways to get there. Of course things change, but not to the extent of what we are seeing in SWG. Smedly himself stated they threw the baby out with the bathwater and tub. That tells me that they had a knee jerk reaction to something, whether it be customer complaints, threats from LA or the number of cancelations.
The game, to me and I would guess most others, appeared intact and running ok (for the most part) from launch. I have always wondered what would of happened had they used all the devs to fix things instead of using most to put together the expansions... They are "fixing" the core game now (im guessing because of all the complaints / issues about the NGE), Why couldn't they fix it then.. Why couldnt they concentrate on the Core game when it first came out, making it stable to build on and expand with. I honestly think the game was balanced and going ok until Jedi were rushed into the game with no clear idea of how they should interact (again $$$ I beleive drove this) with other professions / content. In my opinion the NGE, or even for that matter the CU, would not of been needed, and we could of saved all the bitching and the destruction of the community.
Another issue I never think they took into account was the timeline. It was set in the Starwars Universe... Thats grand, but at what point. I think when they put together their plans they forgot to take into account (or never considered) that there are 2 types of starwars fans. There are those of us who grew up on Episodes 4, 5, and 6. There are those who grew up on episodes 1, 2, and 3. Completely different types of movies, completely different types of people, different generations all together. I for one liked the last 3 eipsodes more than the first 3. You can even see how each generation interacts based on the episodes...
Example of this would be Episode 4, 5 and 6 people... In these episodes they had to earn their stuff in the movies.. They all earned their rank through their accomplishments... Luke was the mositure farmer, who learned he was Force sensitive, and then went through training to become Jedi (although not the full grind).
In the first 3 episodes it seemed as if everything was handed to the people. There were complete Jedi's, Jedi Masters, Armies, no rebellion. Simpler times I guess where the standar of lvining in the universe was different than our episodes.
I truely wish they would of picked a timeline and built the game around that timeline... You can always advance it as needed, but if you dont have a stable start, there is going to be problems with continuity and what not. being a SCI-FI fan (and star trek person) I look at continuity and timelines. I would wager a good amount of money that the Devs see it as the Starwars Universe, and the players of the game see it as the actual year they are suppose to be playing in in game.
The other part is Customer feedback. Most items are tailored around what customers say about the product, which usually insipres new inventions / add ons what have you. In SOE's case they seem to be ignoring all player feedback. They (players) tell the devs what the issues are during the limited times publishes are on test center, yet they never seem to fix the bugs that are reported. SOE seems more intrested in pushing a publish live jsut to say look what we did. Then they "try" to fix bugs jsut to say "look, we are fixing things". I can say with realtive certainty that people would not mind publishes being on the test center longer if it means very very little to no bugs when its pushed live. Bitching about delays will always happen, but when you delay it to tell people you are taking your time, and still push it with bugs, it jsut plain pisses people off.
I'll quit ranting... I do want to say thanks for taking the time to respond to my post. It is certainly a different view point from the way I see things, but you make some good points. I just wish SOE / LA would of thought of all this before they changed the game as many times as they have.
Xcathdra- Ojraw / Warjo
Also, if you dont mind me asking.. What name do you go by in the SWG forums?
Having access to a billion $ IP - Billions of dollars..
Having access to a massive fan base of said IP - Even more Billons...
Singly handedly alienating them due to stupidity - Priceless.
I truely wish they would of picked a timeline and built the game around that timeline... You can always advance it as needed, but if you dont have a stable start, there is going to be problems with continuity and what not. being a SCI-FI fan (and star trek person) I look at continuity and timelines. I would wager a good amount of money that the Devs see it as the Starwars Universe, and the players of the game see it as the actual year they are suppose to be playing in in game.
Ive said this before and Ill say it again, SWG would have been ten times better if it was set around Episode 1 time. Not only would this have given 6 movies worth of future content, made the addition of Clone Armor, Battle Droids in the game, RotW and ToOW, and Jedi Starfighters make sence, but the Jedi themselfes would fit right in. You wouldnt have to worry about the "jedeye dont blong n swg mang" argument at all, and the whole visibility madness would have never occured.
"There's no star system Slave I can't reach, and there's no planet I can't find. There's nowhere in the Galaxy for you to run. Might as well give up now."
Boba Fett
"There's no star system Slave I can't reach, and there's no planet I can't find. There's nowhere in the Galaxy for you to run. Might as well give up now."
Boba Fett
I truely wish they would of picked a timeline and built the game around that timeline... You can always advance it as needed, but if you dont have a stable start, there is going to be problems with continuity and what not. being a SCI-FI fan (and star trek person) I look at continuity and timelines. I would wager a good amount of money that the Devs see it as the Starwars Universe, and the players of the game see it as the actual year they are suppose to be playing in in game.
Ive said this before and Ill say it again, SWG would have been ten times better if it was set around Episode 1 time. Not only would this have given 6 movies worth of future content, made the addition of Clone Armor, Battle Droids in the game, RotW and ToOW, and Jedi Starfighters make sence, but the Jedi themselfes would fit right in. You wouldnt have to worry about the "jedeye dont blong n swg mang" argument at all, and the whole visibility madness would have never occured.
I'm not too clued up on the EU, but how would that work faction wise? Wouldn't you end up being restricted to faction by species since it was the Republic (everyone) vs the CIS (mostly Droids)?
"There's no star system Slave I can't reach, and there's no planet I can't find. There's nowhere in the Galaxy for you to run. Might as well give up now."
Boba Fett
In the wrong hands, anything can be made into something negative and disruptive. Anything at all. If a situation (such as has historically happened and has threatened to occur again in SWG) arises where many players are finding ways to abuse a certain facet of the game, in this case the entertainer profession itself (used to afk-grind, then respec to something else at full mastery), you need to look not merely at the system being exploited, but at the root of the widespread behavior.
In this case, the root is the majority of the game, in especial, combat, not being fun. If getting to max level in as little time as possible, playing as little as possible is an issue, you have to conclude that people don't think the game is any fun under max level. The enablement of this kind of exploitation through respec of the kind we saw in the CU is a very large part of the problem you are talking about. This was not something the entertainers indulged in, it was something combat-bunnies did to avoid having to macro on the "Trail" where they had to compete for mobs rather than recieving a steady, regular stream of xp without having to compete at all.
Now combat-bunnies play their games because they enjoy the challenge and thrill of conquering and competing. If they didn't get a kick out of it, the face of gaming would look very different than it does today. If they're having so little fun with their playstyle that they'd exploit an entire profession, doesn't it make more sense to fix the lack-o-fun factor for them rather than continually punishing the entertainers for something they had no part in? This is basicly what I read you to be suggesting -- beat the good dogs with the bad ones until all you have is angry, bad dogs -- or worse yet, kill the good ones and leave the bad ones. It's certainly been SOE's policy.
The answer is NOT to nerf-nerf-remove. The answer is to bring the lacking parts and professions up to speed until you achieve a balance that most find fun enough to actually PLAY. People actually PLAY the games or parts of games they enjoy. Those who aren't having fun will always find the path of least resistance TO fun. And worse yet, those who aren't having fun will often come up with ways to make sure people around them aren't either, turning griefing itself into a game.
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Kote lo'shebs'ul narit
1) Before the NGE we WEREN'T confined to the cantinas. I can't stress this enough. We were not stuck in a single location type at all.
IDs could do their makeovers anywhere. Only stat migrations required a special location (the ID tents) and those were taken away with the CU. This is still true in the NGE.
Dancers and musicians could and did heal battle fatigue in scout and ranger camps out in the wild. We could and did give buffs in those same camps. We were free to travel with groups who saw a point in having us along. This was true of both the Pre-CU AND the CU. Removing camps limited us severely.
An entertainer can gain xp ANYWHERE. They do not require any specific place and do not require that anyone be listening or watching to gain xp. Listeners, watchers and ent teams INCREASE the rate of xp, but they are by no means the only way to attain xp.
2) No one ever forced anyone to use the services of an entertainer in any iteration of the game.
Every time you say that you were forced to use an entertainer, I want to whap you. Nothing in the game mechanics forced anyone to use an entertainer. Battle fatigue and buffs were OPTIONAL services. If min-maxers felt they had to have us, perhaps they should have considered different armors and tactics to avoid feeling that we were so hatefully mandatory.
3) You can't seem to accept that noncombat gamers need as much of a sense of progression and reward as combat gamers.
There HAS to be a rewards and progression system for entertainers and other noncombat professions. I know you think you know where we're coming from, but you really don't. If we didn't need to be a profession and we didn't need a concrete sense that we were getting somewhere and attaining something, we'd probably all be playing AO instead of fighting for the ability to even BE a profession in SWG.
Publish 28 demonstrated this very clearly to anyone who really paid any attention at all. Before Publish 28, atk entertainers were on the rise on Chilastra, Lowca and Starsider (Starsider outshining all listed, as it's a roleplayer/entertainer haven). When Publish 28 rolled out, they introduced a condensation of entertainer skill milestones, doing away with the boxes between milestones and making the time between "level up" rewards agonizingly farther apart. Almost overnight, afk entertainers replaced nearly every atk player.
Why? Because we require the same reinforcement that your playstyle does.
The very idea of being relegated to an auxilliary skillset for combat players infuriates most of us. Many of us are ONLY here because we finally had a game that would let you be PART OF THE GAME and to actually participate in an MMO without ever HAVING to engage in combat to progress.
The pre-CU game was a paradise for us. Hologrinders were an annoyance and a hinderance, but they did not and could not ruin things. Buffbots were annoying as all hell, and they cheapened our game, but they did not ruin us.
What IS ruining us is the external perception that since everyone who ISN'T one of us is abusing our profession, it's okay to punish US by taking away, piece by piece, our profession and our GAME because a crapload of people can't be bothered to get THEIR OWN HOUSE IN ORDER and make THEIR crap fun enough to play, instead of suffer through.
THE ANSWER HAS NEVER BEEN NOR IS NOW TO BREAK, BACKSEAT OR REMOVE ENTERTAINER AS A PROFESSION. THE ANSWER HAS AND ALWAYS WILL BE TO FIX THE COMBAT GAME so that people will no longer feel the desire to exploit the entertainer profession.
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Kote lo'shebs'ul narit
QFT!
@azhrarn
Well said. I would add something if I could but I think you covered it quite well.