Originally posted by DKid I wont look at this game since I heard Soe is involved soe are losers when it comes to customer satisfaction and video games look at almighty eq2. Look what they did to everquest they messed it up and everytime they did we had to pay for it i lost tons stuff from their roll back and this stuff i had for 7 years. I deleted all my toons and said heck with it. You all should do the same why make them losers rich. After your everquest career look what it has done for you and tell me it was worth it.
Yo kid...that's great and all that you had an epiphany about spending 7 years in one game, possibly playing many of them after you no longer enjoyed it. But do the rest of us a favor, keep it in this thread it's stickied for a reason. We don't need you to start a new thread about it. Most of us have heard the same OMG SOE NOOOOOOOO!!! crap for months by every jhonny come lately who somehow managed to just recently discover it.
If you really want to know what the deal is, check the official faq SOE has jack all to do with influencing/developing VG. If you don't care, kudos to you and enjoy life, but don't be a punk and spread you angst where it isn't wanted nor needed. Vent here in this thread all you want. The one on the official forums hit over 130 pages. Its beat to death in so many ways i can't begin to describe it.
Sigil made a move that was best for their game, end of story. Anyone who has the balls to tell M$ to piss off when they push for an early release (among other things) for the sake of making the game right the first time has my vote of confidence. And I'll leave it at that.
Don't get me wrong, you are absolutely entitled to your own opinion as much as anyone else. There are A LOT of people who refuse to give one tenth of a cent to SOE ever again for getting dicked by them in SWG alone. But this is the thread for the whole SOE is terrible thing. If you had read the first page of this thread you would have seen that you're external one will get deleated and/or locked anyway.
I know that the only way to potentially get back at SoE is to boycott them, but honestly how far will it get you. The amount of time you can spend enjoying Vanguard in comparison to the few seconds of satisfaction you will get for know SoE is not getting your 15 dollars a month. I for one am not a fan of SoE but a new sigil game is coming out and im on board. Decreasing Sony's income by a marginal amount is the least of my worries. Spite will not bring you as much joy as Vanguard.
It's the piece of mind that comes from not giving your money to a company you think does a poor job, or has wronged you in some way..... It's much more than a few seconds of satisfaction for me.
I hear the same thing when i am playing EQ...omg SoE sucks im not buying vanguard. I for one have never seen better customer service having all of my EQ problems solved quickly after a phonecall or an e-mail. Peace of mind? You think that serenity will come to you by not playing Vanguard, which was completly designed by Sigil, and is only being marketed by SoE. Its not like Sigil was kicked off and SoE decided to highjack their game and ruin it for all of you. Anyone who decides to boycott this game deserves not being able to play it. EQ was good in the beginning, why wont vanguard? Enjoy it, have you heard of the progression servers on EQ, you hate new EQ so much try one of those. There really isnt a way to get back at SoE besides boycotting, but its not worth it.
probably a bit late to post on this, and most, if not everything has been said already, but hey who cares
I am split on this. I have been following Vanguard for what seems like millenia and i was quite pleased when the ex EQ team left SOE and founded Sigil. MS as a publisher was not a bad thing at all. Good distribution network and solid marketing and sales experience.
I played EQ and EQ2 and i have sworn off SOE titles. SOE's approach to MMO has changed dramatically in the last few years. Heavy catering to casual gamers, heavy catering to online purchases (Sony Exchange etc.) just are not for me.
Having said that i just want to wait and see what influence SOE will have on Vanguard. If they are merely publishers, as it's currently said, then i don't see a problem. They are not actively involved in the creation and future versions of the game and Sigil will retain creative ownership.
EQ old days (up until Velious) was very good - after velious the Sigil guys left and while EQ remained to be quite good for a while, it slowly took a turn for the worse and EQ2 is pretty much unplayable to me.
If Sigil hold true to their original vision, then it should not matter who the publisher is. If SOE take over the game, as they did with EQ and EQ2, then we are screwed i think.
Okay, so I've managed to make it through to page 5 before I started skipping posts and ultimately just hitting the reply button. Granted this thread is getting old and most of what can be said have been said, but I'm just gonna go ahead and post this for those who can't live without some more views on the whole SOE deal.
First of all. SOE have purchased/aquired publishing rights to Vanguard, meaning they have the rights to publish the game. Publishing a game/book/music or similar product of this magnitude is not something you can do without experience. There are some pretty heavy calculations and risks asociated with this business, and frankly I wouldn't let an art director or game developer handle my taxes which would be the case if a gamedeveloper were to set off and publish their own game. It's all about knowhow. And in a world where knowledge of your market can mean the success or downfall of your product you have to turn to people with experience. In case of Sigil they turn to SOE for (as far as I see it) 2 apparent reasons.
They have prior experience with SOE having worked for them earlier.
The are 2 major players on the MMORPG market today SOE and Blizzard. Blizzard have their hands full with wow, and might be reluctant to take in an other game that might compete over the same player base.
SOE's reputation might not be what it once was (if ever the reputation was good) but lets face it publicity no matter how bad is still publicity! Yapping on about how bad swg/ec/ec2 became after SOE fooled around or how bad their customer support is will actually lead just as many players towards SOE in order to see for themselves as the amount of people who left the game.
Okay so the whole SOE vs. MS is getting old. It's a business descision that had to be made, and as far as I read it, Sigil bought back the intellectual rights for Vanguard in order to avoid MS (and later any other publisher) from trying to make the game stir from "the vision".
SOE on support and game updates / patches. It's been stated quite a few times that SOE have been responsible for releasing unfinished patches or that they fail to communicate with their customers. Give me one example of an MMORPG or any game for that matter where this is not true. It simply can't be done not if you exeed a player base of 10,000 players. You simply can't satisfy everyone, and the higher some people shout the more their oppinion is heard/seen and taken as the general view of things. People in general are very good at complaining but very bad at giving compliments. You don't applaud when things are done right because you expect that to be so, you pay for the service. But do you not wish your employer to give you a pat on the back (or even a bonus) when you've done something right - you're just doing your job why should he?
If you refrain from buying anything from SOE based on their prior actions I can surely understand this. But then you should refrain from buying anything from any major company all together as most of them are based off the same capitalistic ideas. Earn money please the share holders and give a damn about the little man.
I for one am looking forward to the release of Vanguard, granted I had a few second thougths about the game when I heard about the change in publisher, but I also frowned upon first seeing that MS where to publish the game. You can never be truly satisfied unless you do things yourself, but I'm willing to be somewhat satisfied and leave all the financial risks and technical issues in better capable hands.
at first glance you would think you were all crying at the state of world politcs and the threat of armageddon! but NO! its over a computer game!!!
seriously no trolling intended, you pay per month for the service fair enough, but as soon as the service doesnt appeal stop paying, why cry about it for months on end on forums? are computer games SO important in you lives? if so step back and take an objective look at that, needs looking at doesnt it?
yes SOE makes mistakes, so do every other publishers and developers even the mighty and untouchable blizzard, the entire concept is ripped directly from warhammer long ago with warcraft 1.
EVERY game developer makes mistakes, if you go by your own standards never buy another mmorpg by any company as none of them are perfect.
personally i go by whether i have fun playing a game, if i stop having fun i stop playing, simple as that. i am going to try vanguard out, if i like it i will play it until i dont liek it anymore. if you put as much energy into having fun in games as you do crying and complaining, you would all have much more fun.
(disclaimer, yes my grammar and punctuation is terrible dont bother pointing it out i am dyslexic)
It's easy to make a villain out of a company, particularly when they have done so many things wrong. The thing is, a company is not a human entity. True, humans work for it and in it but the company ITSELF is not human and cannot be evil or good. All of SOE's mistakes come down to poor business planning, not a wish to maliciously harm or 'put one over' on their customers. But I will agree that SOE has some piss-poor business sense in a lot of things. If you take note of Sigil, how they are so open to their fanbase and how the developers often chat within not only their own forums but fan forums as well, you can see the model of a good business strategy. You treat the customers as the most important thing, like he is king and calling all of the shots. You have to be in constant communication with them from the word 'Go'. And while, in the long run, you might lose some customers, you will still be known for your "company's" honest and forthright nature, their ability to speak the truth and back it up with actions. And THIS will garner you more loyal fans than any other strategy out there.
SOE's problem is that they don't do any of that. SOE has unfortunately lost sight of how to please their customer base and has begun looking at everything from a strictly business sense of view. How do we make more profit? How do we get new people playing? They come to be known by their lack of customer support, their disregard of customer opinon and so forth. They send the message, "It's all about the profit, not the customer themselves." And this is the true "evil" of SOE.
Yes, your dollars can talk for you. In the competitive business field, the dollar speaks higher than the voice. You don't like SOE and their methods? Don't support them. Don't buy SOE games. That is YOUR choice and your incintive. But don't make individuals into villains for liking SOE. Just because some individuals choose to say, "SOE has some bad aspects and they have made some bad choices, but I still want to play <game title>," don't make them into so sort of heathen devil worshippers or naive fools.
For my part, if Vanguard is a good game, I will be paying to support Sigil. If Gods & Heroes is a good game, I will be paying to support Perpetual Entertainment.
If VG is a success, then SoE will leave it be and enjoy it's cut as is. They know their rep amongst the MMO community and, after all, why mess with whats not broken?
If VG is a failiure, SoE will leave it be to save saddling themselves with yet another dead duck.
Either way, SoE will have nothing more to do with VG then they have now ever. It just dosent make any kind of business sense for them to be any more then publisher for this game.
It also dosent make any sense for Brad to sell a successful game developed by *his* company to SoE, not if he wants to build up a portfolio of quality products for Sigil. And, again, SoE arnt likely to buy a failing one.
Really, all this worry about SoE is worthless and pointless.
Originally posted by Merxion My biggest complaint is after all that huff and puff about not wanting to support Gold Sales etc and they go and join up with SOE
Well, there were prolly a few publishers for MMOs he could have chosen.
1: EA - Prolly not the best of choices, but they also aquired Mythic sometime after SGO went to SOE. 2: NCSoft - I really don't know how this would turn out, might have been good but not sure on project control. 3: Acclaim - You know what this wont happen because they are porting over Korean games only. 4: Sony Online Entertainment - We know how this turned out.
Also, if you read on the site they mentition ideas on how to combat gold farmers and the like.
Originally posted by vesavius If VG is a success, then SoE will leave it be and enjoy it's cut as is. They know their rep amongst the MMO community and, after all, why mess with whats not broken? If VG is a failiure, SoE will leave it be to save saddling themselves with yet another dead duck. Either way, SoE will have nothing more to do with VG then they have now ever. It just dosent make any kind of business sense for them to be any more then publisher for this game. It also dosent make any sense for Brad to sell a successful game developed by *his* company to SoE, not if he wants to build up a portfolio of quality products for Sigil. And, again, SoE arnt likely to buy a failing one. Really, all this worry about SoE is worthless and pointless.
Lets hope ur right...
But if soe starts to pull the horn, ill leave at once.....
I actually don't mind SOE. I think they're just hated because they're the biggest. When you're the biggest, you change something, you're going to have someone not liking that change no matter what it is. Over the years SOE games have undergone alot of changes, and with each change, some people have become unhappy.
My only beef is how much they charge for their monthly fees.
SoE deserves another chance, that and its not really as big a deal as you are making it out to be. Yea they may have messed up a few games before, but its seems clear they dont want to do it again, and Vanguard is made by the same people as our precious Eq-Velious. SoE pissed me off before, but not enough to keep me off of Vanguard.
if anyone has any sense, they would stay away from SOE.
i know that sounds harsh but SOE one way or another screw up everything they get their hands on.
one of the first mmo's i truly got addicted to was a SOE game called Planetside. i had been followin it and played it in beta and continued into launch.
Never had a game been so amazin and perfect. it had everything. but slowly slowly, SOE seemed to release patches with new content that nobody wanted. And then the worst screw up of all, (which all Planetside players might remember) "THE BENDING"
from that patch, the game went downhill and at this moment in time, the game has about 10% of old veterans like me playing, and 90% of trial members that sign up to SOE's reserve program. Slowly the game is dying.
SOE did the same with SWG and another game that was highly anticipated but has gone downhill from day 1....Matrix Online.
SOE screw everything up. they do not deserver one more chance, they shouldnt exist.
SoE isnt even doing anything to the game besides distibuting it and providing servers. Yea, a couple of the older games arent as much fun any more but SoE doesnt have their hands on this one, Sigil does.
Originally posted by Xiliaro SoE isnt even doing anything to the game besides distibuting it and providing servers. Yea, a couple of the older games arent as much fun any more but SoE doesnt have their hands on this one, Sigil does.
You do realize server stability for EQ2 was a MAJOR issue for the first year of EQ2, right? And you can pretty much call all of SoE's MMO product like crap. It isn't a matter of them "not being as much fun" but rather being completely ruined.
Once I heard that SoE was getting involved in Vanguard... I decided I will most likely not try the game at all.
Originally posted by Xiliaro SoE isnt even doing anything to the game besides distibuting it and providing servers. Yea, a couple of the older games arent as much fun any more but SoE doesnt have their hands on this one, Sigil does.
You do realize server stability for EQ2 was a MAJOR issue for the first year of EQ2, right? And you can pretty much call all of SoE's MMO product like crap. It isn't a matter of them "not being as much fun" but rather being completely ruined.
Once I heard that SoE was getting involved in Vanguard... I decided I will most likely not try the game at all.
DO you mean major issue like waiting in line for a few hours before being able to log onto your server as in WoW? Becuase truthfully, I've started playing EQ2 since day 1 and didn't ever had MAJOR problems with server stability. Every mmorpg has this kind of trouble at the beginning. You don,t know how your hardware will react to a vast amount of peoples at the same time. SoE isn't involved at all with the game aside from distribution and providing server. The pool of server SoE has is much better hten what Sigil could ever have by themselves or what Microsoft could provide at the moment.
SOE did the same with SWG and another game that was highly anticipated but has gone downhill from day 1....Matrix Online.
Warener Brother screwed up that game by themselves. They sold it at a cheap price to SoE. Matrix wasn't a highly anticipated game at all, by the previews peoples could tell it wouldn't turn out right. By playing the beta you could see it wouldn't live up to the hype of the block buster.
Comments
Yo kid...that's great and all that you had an epiphany about spending 7 years in one game, possibly playing many of them after you no longer enjoyed it. But do the rest of us a favor, keep it in this thread it's stickied for a reason. We don't need you to start a new thread about it. Most of us have heard the same OMG SOE NOOOOOOOO!!! crap for months by every jhonny come lately who somehow managed to just recently discover it.
If you really want to know what the deal is, check the official faq SOE has jack all to do with influencing/developing VG. If you don't care, kudos to you and enjoy life, but don't be a punk and spread you angst where it isn't wanted nor needed. Vent here in this thread all you want. The one on the official forums hit over 130 pages. Its beat to death in so many ways i can't begin to describe it.
Sigil made a move that was best for their game, end of story. Anyone who has the balls to tell M$ to piss off when they push for an early release (among other things) for the sake of making the game right the first time has my vote of confidence. And I'll leave it at that.
Don't get me wrong, you are absolutely entitled to your own opinion as much as anyone else. There are A LOT of people who refuse to give one tenth of a cent to SOE ever again for getting dicked by them in SWG alone. But this is the thread for the whole SOE is terrible thing. If you had read the first page of this thread you would have seen that you're external one will get deleated and/or locked anyway.
-----Zero Punctuation Eve Online Review-----
haha soe.. vanguard looks great but.. for real soe have burn all there bridges
I said this somehwere else but Ill say it here too!
I hate f'n Walmart...but I love Oreo's.
I'm not going to stop buying Oreo's just because I have to get them at Walmart!
I am split on this. I have been following Vanguard for what seems like millenia and i was quite pleased when the ex EQ team left SOE and founded Sigil. MS as a publisher was not a bad thing at all. Good distribution network and solid marketing and sales experience.
I played EQ and EQ2 and i have sworn off SOE titles. SOE's approach to MMO has changed dramatically in the last few years. Heavy catering to casual gamers, heavy catering to online purchases (Sony Exchange etc.) just are not for me.
Having said that i just want to wait and see what influence SOE will have on Vanguard. If they are merely publishers, as it's currently said, then i don't see a problem. They are not actively involved in the creation and future versions of the game and Sigil will retain creative ownership.
EQ old days (up until Velious) was very good - after velious the Sigil guys left and while EQ remained to be quite good for a while, it slowly took a turn for the worse and EQ2 is pretty much unplayable to me.
If Sigil hold true to their original vision, then it should not matter who the publisher is. If SOE take over the game, as they did with EQ and EQ2, then we are screwed i think.
Okay, so I've managed to make it through to page 5 before I started skipping posts and ultimately just hitting the reply button. Granted this thread is getting old and most of what can be said have been said, but I'm just gonna go ahead and post this for those who can't live without some more views on the whole SOE deal.
First of all. SOE have purchased/aquired publishing rights to Vanguard, meaning they have the rights to publish the game. Publishing a game/book/music or similar product of this magnitude is not something you can do without experience. There are some pretty heavy calculations and risks asociated with this business, and frankly I wouldn't let an art director or game developer handle my taxes which would be the case if a gamedeveloper were to set off and publish their own game. It's all about knowhow. And in a world where knowledge of your market can mean the success or downfall of your product you have to turn to people with experience. In case of Sigil they turn to SOE for (as far as I see it) 2 apparent reasons.
- They have prior experience with SOE having worked for them earlier.
- The are 2 major players on the MMORPG market today SOE and Blizzard. Blizzard have their hands full with wow, and might be reluctant to take in an other game that might compete over the same player base.
SOE's reputation might not be what it once was (if ever the reputation was good) but lets face it publicity no matter how bad is still publicity! Yapping on about how bad swg/ec/ec2 became after SOE fooled around or how bad their customer support is will actually lead just as many players towards SOE in order to see for themselves as the amount of people who left the game.Okay so the whole SOE vs. MS is getting old. It's a business descision that had to be made, and as far as I read it, Sigil bought back the intellectual rights for Vanguard in order to avoid MS (and later any other publisher) from trying to make the game stir from "the vision".
SOE on support and game updates / patches.
It's been stated quite a few times that SOE have been responsible for releasing unfinished patches or that they fail to communicate with their customers. Give me one example of an MMORPG or any game for that matter where this is not true. It simply can't be done not if you exeed a player base of 10,000 players. You simply can't satisfy everyone, and the higher some people shout the more their oppinion is heard/seen and taken as the general view of things. People in general are very good at complaining but very bad at giving compliments. You don't applaud when things are done right because you expect that to be so, you pay for the service. But do you not wish your employer to give you a pat on the back (or even a bonus) when you've done something right - you're just doing your job why should he?
If you refrain from buying anything from SOE based on their prior actions I can surely understand this. But then you should refrain from buying anything from any major company all together as most of them are based off the same capitalistic ideas. Earn money please the share holders and give a damn about the little man.
I for one am looking forward to the release of Vanguard, granted I had a few second thougths about the game when I heard about the change in publisher, but I also frowned upon first seeing that MS where to publish the game. You can never be truly satisfied unless you do things yourself, but I'm willing to be somewhat satisfied and leave all the financial risks and technical issues in better capable hands.
at first glance you would think you were all crying at the state of world politcs and the threat of armageddon!
but NO! its over a computer game!!!
seriously no trolling intended, you pay per month for the service fair enough, but as soon as the service doesnt appeal stop paying, why cry about it for months on end on forums? are computer games SO important in you lives? if so step back and take an objective look at that, needs looking at doesnt it?
yes SOE makes mistakes, so do every other publishers and developers even the mighty and untouchable blizzard, the entire concept is ripped directly from warhammer long ago with warcraft 1.
EVERY game developer makes mistakes, if you go by your own standards never buy another mmorpg by any company as none of them are perfect.
personally i go by whether i have fun playing a game, if i stop having fun i stop playing, simple as that. i am going to try vanguard out, if i like it i will play it until i dont liek it anymore.
if you put as much energy into having fun in games as you do crying and complaining, you would all have much more fun.
(disclaimer, yes my grammar and punctuation is terrible dont bother pointing it out i am dyslexic)
The thing is, a company is not a human entity. True, humans work for it and in it but the company ITSELF is not human and cannot be evil or good.
All of SOE's mistakes come down to poor business planning, not a wish to maliciously harm or 'put one over' on their customers.
But I will agree that SOE has some piss-poor business sense in a lot of things. If you take note of Sigil, how they are so open to their fanbase and how the developers often chat within not only their own forums but fan forums as well, you can see the model of a good business strategy.
You treat the customers as the most important thing, like he is king and calling all of the shots. You have to be in constant communication with them from the word 'Go'. And while, in the long run, you might lose some customers, you will still be known for your "company's" honest and forthright nature, their ability to speak the truth and back it up with actions. And THIS will garner you more loyal fans than any other strategy out there.
SOE's problem is that they don't do any of that. SOE has unfortunately lost sight of how to please their customer base and has begun looking at everything from a strictly business sense of view. How do we make more profit? How do we get new people playing? They come to be known by their lack of customer support, their disregard of customer opinon and so forth. They send the message, "It's all about the profit, not the customer themselves." And this is the true "evil" of SOE.
Yes, your dollars can talk for you. In the competitive business field, the dollar speaks higher than the voice. You don't like SOE and their methods? Don't support them. Don't buy SOE games. That is YOUR choice and your incintive.
But don't make individuals into villains for liking SOE. Just because some individuals choose to say, "SOE has some bad aspects and they have made some bad choices, but I still want to play <game title>," don't make them into so sort of heathen devil worshippers or naive fools.
For my part, if Vanguard is a good game, I will be paying to support Sigil. If Gods & Heroes is a good game, I will be paying to support Perpetual Entertainment.
If VG is a success, then SoE will leave it be and enjoy it's cut as is. They know their rep amongst the MMO community and, after all, why mess with whats not broken?
If VG is a failiure, SoE will leave it be to save saddling themselves with yet another dead duck.
Either way, SoE will have nothing more to do with VG then they have now ever. It just dosent make any kind of business sense for them to be any more then publisher for this game.
It also dosent make any sense for Brad to sell a successful game developed by *his* company to SoE, not if he wants to build up a portfolio of quality products for Sigil. And, again, SoE arnt likely to buy a failing one.
Really, all this worry about SoE is worthless and pointless.
Well, there were prolly a few publishers for MMOs he could have chosen.
1: EA - Prolly not the best of choices, but they also aquired Mythic sometime after SGO went to SOE.
2: NCSoft - I really don't know how this would turn out, might have been good but not sure on project control.
3: Acclaim - You know what this wont happen because they are porting over Korean games only.
4: Sony Online Entertainment - We know how this turned out.
Also, if you read on the site they mentition ideas on how to combat gold farmers and the like.
But if soe starts to pull the horn, ill leave at once.....
I actually don't mind SOE. I think they're just hated because they're the biggest. When you're the biggest, you change something, you're going to have someone not liking that change no matter what it is. Over the years SOE games have undergone alot of changes, and with each change, some people have become unhappy.
My only beef is how much they charge for their monthly fees.
if anyone has any sense, they would stay away from SOE.
i know that sounds harsh but SOE one way or another screw up everything they get their hands on.
one of the first mmo's i truly got addicted to was a SOE game called Planetside. i had been followin it and played it in beta and continued into launch.
Never had a game been so amazin and perfect. it had everything. but slowly slowly, SOE seemed to release patches with new content that nobody wanted. And then the worst screw up of all, (which all Planetside players might remember) "THE BENDING"
from that patch, the game went downhill and at this moment in time, the game has about 10% of old veterans like me playing, and 90% of trial members that sign up to SOE's reserve program. Slowly the game is dying.
SOE did the same with SWG and another game that was highly anticipated but has gone downhill from day 1....Matrix Online.
SOE screw everything up. they do not deserver one more chance, they shouldnt exist.
Once I heard that SoE was getting involved in Vanguard... I decided I will most likely not try the game at all.
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Support Independent Game Developers
Once I heard that SoE was getting involved in Vanguard... I decided I will most likely not try the game at all.
DO you mean major issue like waiting in line for a few hours before being able to log onto your server as in WoW? Becuase truthfully, I've started playing EQ2 since day 1 and didn't ever had MAJOR problems with server stability. Every mmorpg has this kind of trouble at the beginning. You don,t know how your hardware will react to a vast amount of peoples at the same time. SoE isn't involved at all with the game aside from distribution and providing server. The pool of server SoE has is much better hten what Sigil could ever have by themselves or what Microsoft could provide at the moment.