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define player run economy
damian7
Member Posts: 4,449
this misinformation poster posted something that got me thinking last night.
the person said that wow is a player run economy.
as i thought about it, i realized that in the games with player run economies, i never really noticed any third world farmers (nor people complaining about said farmers). now i'm sure there were some that i missed.
the question i pose to everyone today is -- what makes a player-run economy?
i think it requires the game to have
1 item decay and item loss (i.e. if you die, you can lose items, or at least they will take a max durability decay).
2 craftable items need to be the best items ingame, or at least in the running with the best items ingame.
3 while player housing isn't a MUST, it certainly adds to the player economy.
4 same goes for vehicles and pets you can ride, or tame.
finally, i'd ask people to list a few games they consider have at least a decent player-run economy.
for me, i'd say any game that meets both 1 and 2 above. it might not be the best player run economy, but it would be a player-run economy. that includes games from uo, to swg, to horizons, to a number of others. it excludes games like wow, COx, and similar games where crafting is an afterthought, non existent or just makes blah items.
i don't believe any game where the majority of items for sale/trade are from drops, CAN have a true player economy. especially in a game like wow, where there is no chance of you ever losing any item you own. max durability will never drop and you can't lose items when you die or have them stolen from you.
i'm looking for other opinions and input on what makes a great player-run economy. throw your ideas out here and let's see who thinks which game has the BEST player run economy.
my vote for that one, i think would have to be pre-nge swg. if we're excluding old versions of games (which makes sense); then, from personal experience, i don't really have another nomination. games like horizons have what seem to be great systems. games like UO have you using forums and barking your wares at banks or putting vendors in good malls. both of those systems have good points and put them in the running for best player run economyl, imo.
swg could still have the best one; but after just seeing and testing a few of the classes with this latest expansion, i couldn't play any further, it was just horrid. so i don't know.
the person said that wow is a player run economy.
as i thought about it, i realized that in the games with player run economies, i never really noticed any third world farmers (nor people complaining about said farmers). now i'm sure there were some that i missed.
the question i pose to everyone today is -- what makes a player-run economy?
i think it requires the game to have
1 item decay and item loss (i.e. if you die, you can lose items, or at least they will take a max durability decay).
2 craftable items need to be the best items ingame, or at least in the running with the best items ingame.
3 while player housing isn't a MUST, it certainly adds to the player economy.
4 same goes for vehicles and pets you can ride, or tame.
finally, i'd ask people to list a few games they consider have at least a decent player-run economy.
for me, i'd say any game that meets both 1 and 2 above. it might not be the best player run economy, but it would be a player-run economy. that includes games from uo, to swg, to horizons, to a number of others. it excludes games like wow, COx, and similar games where crafting is an afterthought, non existent or just makes blah items.
i don't believe any game where the majority of items for sale/trade are from drops, CAN have a true player economy. especially in a game like wow, where there is no chance of you ever losing any item you own. max durability will never drop and you can't lose items when you die or have them stolen from you.
i'm looking for other opinions and input on what makes a great player-run economy. throw your ideas out here and let's see who thinks which game has the BEST player run economy.
my vote for that one, i think would have to be pre-nge swg. if we're excluding old versions of games (which makes sense); then, from personal experience, i don't really have another nomination. games like horizons have what seem to be great systems. games like UO have you using forums and barking your wares at banks or putting vendors in good malls. both of those systems have good points and put them in the running for best player run economyl, imo.
swg could still have the best one; but after just seeing and testing a few of the classes with this latest expansion, i couldn't play any further, it was just horrid. so i don't know.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Comments
WoW's so-called economy is a joke, all the best items are drops and are mostly BoP, inflaton in that game is rediculous already.
2) I think there is room for 'uber' drop items, as long as there is stiff item loss penalties. Player craftables would have to be competetive though.
3) Yep, it also adds a real sense of community if players can say "this little patch of game belongs to us". Gives you something to fight over and defend.
4) Another interesting point, we need more animal breeding in games
As for games that currently have true player run economies Eve and the old SWG were the only two I had experience of, thought there could be others.
-Create a simple world (post-apocalyptic for example) with little or no infrastructure or items
-Have a few basic factories, mines, whatever
-include blueprints or whatever so players can make their own items
-let the players do the rest
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Player Run Economy = Auction House in my book.
A regular place for items to have and display a market value that is set wholly by player demand. A place of player run trading that is the norm for most players to use primarily.
If it hasn't got one, it's just an economy.
A few geeks on trade channel, is not a Player Run Economy. What is actually being traded, is beside the point, it's how.
So for my money WoW has a Player Run Economy, but Eve does not.
Can you buy items in a store? No (at least not anything usefull)
think about it, everything you equip in WoW is either found, bought from an auction house, or crafted.
player Item drop has absolutely NOTHING to do with it.
from those 4:
"1 item decay and item loss (i.e. if you die, you can lose items, or at least they will take a max durability decay).
2 craftable items need to be the best items ingame, or at least in the running with the best items ingame.
3 while player housing isn't a MUST, it certainly adds to the player economy.
4 same goes for vehicles and pets you can ride, or tame."
only number 2 makes sense. for me, Player run economy means items that players have to find or craft themself. not bought in stores. WoW may not be a GOOD example of a player run economy,because drop rate still holds an important factor in sale price, but it definitly is a player run economy.
*hands baff a flame retardant suit*
If you had an ounce of experience in EVE, you'd know thats not true.
I mostly agree with the comments about SWG (maybe we could call it "The game formerly known as SWG" TGFKASWG :P ) and Eve.
However, consider that there has to be some means to inject new money into the economy. IRL new money is minted (yes I know mostly to replace money coming out of circulation but there is more money minted each year than destroyed.)
In both SWG and Eve one can do missions as long as one wants to and earn credits/ISK. To make a truly player run economy there should be only missions enough to pay for public works projects and new player starting money. So in Eve for example the npc stations could have a maintence budget that would be some fixed ammount per week that would be available. And once those missions are completed that station is out of missions until the next cycle.
There should be NPC's that are coin drop. But not an infinate spawn of them. There should never be an NPC that has an unlimited supply of Elmwood boards and Phoenix feathers. There should never be an NPC that will buy every wolf's tooth you bring him.
If a player is given a set of starting gear then that starting gear should be player made and sold to an NPC. The NPC's should be willing to buy a high reserve of these items but not an infinate ammount of them. The price the NPC pays for them should simply keep dropping until the items are used.
Missions should exist but only until the objective is accomplished. You shouldn't be able to keep killing the same rogue drones or banthas all day long for NPC rewards.
If you are a crafter with no combat skills and need a harvester placed where a lair stands you could ask people you know to clear it or create a mission to clear it and set a price for it of your choosing.
Auction houses on their own are a lazy attempt to put a market in place, and WoW probably has more 'geeks' on trade, its just that they are split over however many servers.
Wow doesn't have anthing close to a proper economy. In a proper Economy there would always be money to be made from trading (buying goods in one place, taking them to another and selling for profit). In Wow you just have to be near an auction hub, it doesn't matter where the seller put the item up, you can buy it anywhere.
I've played quite a few MMOG's and all of these games are moving toward player run economies to various degrees. However Eve Online hands down has the best player run economy. When you receive loot from kills or mining and want to sell what you find, you actually sell to a real character who sets the price to buy the product. There is actually competition among merchants. Since the universe is so big with 5000 systems, there is no way a player can know the price at each station so there are players that make money from actually buying from one seller and moving the cargo to a buyer in a different region. Ships are made to transport products. What other game has truckers?
Eve also uses Blueprints and actually has factories that produce products. The comps you need are the minerals needed from miners. So they become buyers in the market for the minerals they need. Scarcity is a major factor in Eve and dictates the price.
Eve also has shareholders for corporations. What other game has that?
One last point, Eve has its own economic pvp among traders trying to undercut other traders and a player can learn skills that makes their production more efficient than their competitors.
However boring some may think Eve Online is, there is no doubt (and not even close) that Eve has the best and most intricate player run economy in all MMOG's right now.
Auction houses on their own are a lazy attempt to put a market in place, and WoW probably has more 'geeks' on trade, its just that they are split over however many servers.
Wow doesn't have anthing close to a proper economy. In a proper Economy there would always be money to be made from trading (buying goods in one place, taking them to another and selling for profit). In Wow you just have to be near an auction hub, it doesn't matter where the seller put the item up, you can buy it anywhere.
WoW has regional (and factional) auction houses too, you may have to travel. It may be simple, but it works. And everyone in the game uses it.
I agree that Eve has a very complex economy, compared to WoW's simple one. I am attempting to define "Player Run" economy, not "Complex" economy. For me this is apparent only when prices are dictated by the player. The simpler it is, the more players will be using it, and the more obviously the economy will be affected by the players. (But that's contentious).
I've played Eve, and I've played WoW and when the topic of "Player Run Economy" was raised, the only game which has impressed me in this way is WoW. For a good economic modelled game try X3 Beyond The Frontier, it's a space sim like Eve only pilots eye and single player.
I never used an auction house in Eve, if you say it has them now, then that too fits my description of Player Run Economy.
Auction houses on their own are a lazy attempt to put a market in place, and WoW probably has more 'geeks' on trade, its just that they are split over however many servers.
Wow doesn't have anthing close to a proper economy. In a proper Economy there would always be money to be made from trading (buying goods in one place, taking them to another and selling for profit). In Wow you just have to be near an auction hub, it doesn't matter where the seller put the item up, you can buy it anywhere.
WoW has regional (and factional) auction houses too, you may have to travel. It may be simple, but it works. And everyone in the game uses it.
I never used an auction house in Eve, if you say it has them now, then that too fits my description of Player Run Economy.
I played WoW and know about the Auction House. When you can get past the lag in IronForge the Auction House is ok. Nice Search Engine and with the right macros is fairly nice. Even the loot names are colorful. But the Auction House is nothing compared to the market in Eve. There are 3 main Auction Houses in WoW (Allegiance, Horde, Gadgetzan (sp). Eve has thousands of what you would call auction houses.
WoW could survive without the Auction House. No way Eve could survice without the Market.
And yet I never used it when I played Eve.
It's not fun. It doesn't sound fun.
WoW's player run economy works well and is fun and exciting to use. For me, it is without a shadow of a doubt the best on the market. It's the first time after years of online RPG's that I have ever bothered to trade with other players.
It's so functional too. For example the trade option to have your favourite equipment enhanced without actually having to pass it over to some one who may just keep it. They really have thought it through.
I was with you right up until the end. Eve has a Player Run Economy, by your definition. It has a market, good god, every time I buy something, or sell it, I go to that market and look at player-set prices.
Chris Mattern
I am baffled. How in the name of hell can you play Eve and not use the market?? I bought every ship I've ever owned except my newbie ship on the market. I regularly equip my ship on the market if I don't have what I need in my rat drops. I sell my excess loot and my mining proceeds on the market. Why would it be "not fun"? I'm sorry, but you're just not making any sense here.
Chris Mattern
how have third world money farmers ruined the so called player run economy in the only other game mentioned - wow?
an economy which is essentially driven by drops obtained from endless *raiding* or *farming*, such as wow, opens itself up incredibly easily to exploitation and inflation of these third world money farmers, in that, you have to hit X dungeon Y times before the item drops AND you can have it.
in game with craftables, where the craftables rival drops (maybe a little better, maybe a little worse), do you see the "gold farmers" which you see constantly, everywhere on wow?
wow is a drop-run economy, nothing is dictacted by the players.
you never will lose any item in wow, hence you only have to buy that item ONCE for the life of your toon.
it's easier to buy low level items for alts in wow, this creates inflation, which is added to by the money farmers.
do you have this inflation in games with what i consider a true player run economy?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
http://www.TheGamersAssociation.com
If EVE was truely player based then you would be able to research a blueprint and get it which over time could or couldn't be devalued through over and under production. What EVE DOES is give a few people at random blueprint which they then can choose to horde or not and ultimately has nothing to do with the the player as it does with what CCP wants to see happen.
While WOW's auction system is a different example of an economy it's not player run either since not ALL player made crafts are able to be sold on it, and players can't make item that exceed Epic set found in raids.
Star Wars had the best chance of a player made economy way back when but the devs never developed methods of economic drains that were equal for all classes and often enough not to create the inflation that existed (the huge duping found out in the 2nd year didn't help either).
Tale in the Desert is about the only MMO that has a REAL player made economy down to the choosing of what materials back the currency being used.
the only game i would consider having a complete player run economy would be roma victor
If you ever bought anything off the market in EVE then 9 times out of 10 it was player created, generally the only items that are ever bought from npc's are tech1 blueprint originals, as that is the only way to get them.
What is required for a player - run economy?
Players must supply everything. Players must be the market.
I also consider it an advantage to limit one player's ability to get wealthy or powerful without trading. You shouldn't be able to be productive in all fields at one time. Specialisation should be encouraged.
Blacksmith + Miner should be more efficient than Blacksmith&Miner + Blacksmith&Miner. Then the blacksmith will be better off purchasing what the miner offers than mining his own raw material. This mechanism should apply to most or all crafts / professions.
How would a player-run economy look?
The future: Adellion
Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually
Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants)
Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens)
Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
EVE has the most in depth economy without question. Players control every aspect from raw material stages to final production. The only thing out of the players control is the Blueprint lottery system. CCP controls how many BPO's get put into the game but then players can copy them as many times as they choose. This puts a mighty windfall of money into the hands of the lucky. I can see why people would say that WoW is but its the scale of the economy and economic factors that make the difference to me. The level of player impact should be the definition of a player run economy. In EVE players make the economy. In WoW players sell looted items based on the going rate. HUGE difference.
Make a difference!
I've not played Eve, so I can't comment on its economy. However, I do agree that WoW has a player driven economy. It's just a really simple, crappy, watered down version of a player driven economy, but then again, WoW is a really simple, crappy, watered down version of an MMORPG. Blizzard has done an amazing job of introducing the masses to the genre. Maybe some of those new players will try a real MMO some day.
Every MMORPG I have played has always had a player run economy. Yes, you could buy arrows or potions (or whatever) from an NPC, but the real items always came from player to player trade. Players traded uber loot long before the Devs implemented auction houses or markets. I honestly, don't know why game designers waste resources trying to implement some in game system. They should be spending time on balance issues and content instead of making auction houses. Does anyone remember Arwic or Qbar from old school AC1? There was NO trade system what so ever. Dozens of players would gather in one place and spam what they had or what they wanted. Then if you wanted to trade with someone, you had to just hand him the item and trust that he would pay you. Also, the in-game currency (pyreals) had no value to players. I'm not saying that is the best way to do it, but it illustrates my point that players who like to trade are gonna trade.
For a player economy to thrive you do need several things to happen. First, the adminstrators of the game MUST do everything in their power to keep out macro'ers and gold farmers. Inflation just goes way out of control when the game gets infested with these lamers. Cheats, 3rd party apps, and the like kill the games that we love, and the economy is the first thing to go.
Secondly, crafters have got to get some real love. Weapons and Armor should never drop from a critter kill. The best gear has got to come from crafters. Items have got to decay, so that "Adventurers" always need a crafter to supply him. Crafting should be fun and challenging. I have been playing A Tale in the Desert beta, and i keep asking myself, "Why isn't this game part of a more popular MMORPG with combat?" The systems and challenges are great, and I can think of a million ways that combat oriented adventurers could benefit from my skills as a tradesman. ATITD is 100% social/crafting and it is really really entertaining.
Finally, the enviroment needs to react to the player actions. It drives me insane to see some uber loot item go for 100million gold one day then go for free 3 months down the road. Why do game designers allow us to sit in one spot and kill the same thing 10,000 times with no change. If "Oak Longbows" are the most kickass weapon in the world, and everyone goes out to chop down oaks trees to make the bows, then oak trees should be wiped out until they have had time to grow back, right?
Also, why do game designers still implement a standard currency? Why do creatures drop items that are useless except to dump into an NPC merchant for cash? If a game were created where harvested items were needed to create equipment then the players would create a currency system of their own, and the developers could just take gold out of the picture completely. The adventures and crafters would depend on each other for supplies and a dynamic system would develop where the master blacksmith is as important as the master swordsman.
at least that's how i hope it would work
Which FF Character Are You?
Hmm. I either have The Answer to "how do you define a player-run economy" or I'm completely off-base. You decide.
It's simple: Your economy is player-run to the degree that NPCs don't create or sell goods or services.
If your game has no loot drops (everything is player crafted) and there are no NPC vendors (only players can sell things), then your game is completely player-run.
But of course pretty much all MMORPGs have loot drops, and a significant percentage also have NPC vendors. So there aren't really any MMORPGs that are completely player-run. Even so, some games have come closer to reasonably being said to have a "player-run economy" than others, and they've already been named in this thread: SWG, EVE, and ATITD. Each does a decent or lousy job of it (depending on who you ask), but they all rely sufficiently on player crafting and player sales to justifiably be said to have player-run economies.
Ultimately, then, the degree to which a game has a "player-run economy" depends on how much it relies on player crafters and on player merchants. If you want to create a game with a lot of economic dynamism, you'll need a strong crafting system and a trading system that supports an involving sales subgame.
One interesting note: there's a question as to how many players must be active on a server/shard at any moment in order to maintain a functional player economy. I've seen guesstimates that range from 1000 to 100,000, so there's definitely a Master's thesis waiting to be written here.
However, an important point we can already see is that only AAA games can count on always having enough players simultaneously active to make a player-run economy work. If you're making an indie game, you're pretty much stuck with having to have NPC vendors because you can't count on having enough crafters and sellers to satisfy the economic desires of the majority of your players.
It's an interesting case of how a game's design is affected by who makes it.
--Flatfingers
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?