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The Official "We're Angry at SOE" thread
Hi Guys,
It seems as though there has been quite a bit of SOE hate recently, and it has gotten to the point where it is taking over the forums for SOE games. As a result, I am creating this sticky where people can vent their frustrations on this subject.
Please do not continue to hijack other threads with this issue. Also, remember to have a look at our Rules of Conduct regarding what is ok to say and what is not.
Cheers,
Jon "Stradden" Wood, Community Manager
Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com
Comments
those who are considering playing an SOE game so that they can inform
themselves on what they are getting into.
So I started a blog site called The Informed Gamer
and I want to post a definitive record of what the users of SOE and SWG
in particular have endured, and I am not only talking about gameplay
but also customer service and technical support issues as well.
I
don't like writing pure opinion, I would like to back it up with as
much evidence as possible. Any articles or even customer service
tickets, stories, and what not would be appreciated, it can be posted
here, pm'd, or later when I register an email address for this purpose
I will include it here.
Also if anyone of you would like to contribute to the project please let me know.
SWG RIP
moctodumegws
Can't WAIT!
I enjoyed SWG when it first came out for about 2 months. The quests were horrid, and the while the harvesting and crafting system was AWESOME, the final result of crafting was not. Right when I thought about giving SWG a second try I started to hear how screwed up the game was.
I was REALLY pissed when EQ2 was first released. What the hell was that? Only able to sell if your on-line? Since then the game has improved incredibly.
So I'm only a little angry at SOE. SWG wasn't all that great to begin with so I cancelled, and EQ2 is a pretty good game.
I can't wait to see all the crying/trolling etc. that's going to hit the fan when Vanguard comes out. I'm not going to touch that game untill it's been out for 6-8 months (but that probably goes for any game). I can GUARANTEE that the game will be released in the same fashion and quality as EQ2 was. Do you think your going to have all the 3rd generation functionality promised to be in the game at launch? Waiting even a month to realease a game for a few in game issues costs hundreds of thousands of dollars. This one's being released with problems, just in time to ruin your Christmas
I'll let all you fanbois beta test the retail version of game for me.
All that said, I am still looking foward to playing Vanguard.
I miss the good ol' days when nerds were actually intelligent.
Should change the name to "The Biased Gamer" Or "The One Sided Gamer"
Happy people do not post. For everyone one story you get, there could be thousands of happy players.
Here is some evidence for you: In 4 years of Eq I have never had a problem with SOE. No overcharges, no double charges, no GM problems, no technical issues that werent my fault.
- Released unfinished games
- Pushed buggy patches to live servers knowing there are game breaking bugs
- Selling expansions that are not complete
- Froglock (sp)
- Changed the fundamental mechanics of SWG not once but twice
- Used bots to reply to customer service tickets
- Lied to their customers
I'm glad you were one of the lucky ones, but is it really appropriate to belittle those who haven't had such great experiences and wish to inform others as to what they may experience when playing an SOE game?SWG RIP
moctodumegws
Can't WAIT!
It would be illogical to dismiss a persons opinion of a game solely because they are fans of that game.
SWG RIP
moctodumegws
Can't WAIT!
SWG RIP
moctodumegws
Can't WAIT!
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
What he said.
SWG RIP
moctodumegws
Can't WAIT!
Being bias doesn't make it incorrect. Doesn't make the position of the site wrong.
SOE can and does defend its own image, their view is bias as well.
This site will inform people as to the PROBLEMS people have had with SOE.
SOE will of course tell people what they want them to hear.
People will be able to examine both sides and become informed.
SWG RIP
moctodumegws
Can't WAIT!
Alright, atleast your willing to discuss this issue and bring up specific points of concern. So, lets take a look at what you've brought up that makes SOE a bad company.
1) Releasing an unfinished game(s) is most likely correct since almost every MMO I've ever played could be concievably considered unfinished at release. The point your probably trying to make is that what they said would be implemented at release didn't happen, correct? Well, that goes for A LOT of MMOs now and back when EQ came out. So this particular bad habbit may have started with EQ but it certainly didn't end with it nor is it a SOE exclusive issue.
a) Because other people do it doesn't make it right.
b) Of the games I played at launch it was only SWG an SOE game that was grossly unfinished. WoW, EQ2, and CoH I played at launch and the difference between these and the horribly buggy game that SWG was when it was launched is huge. As I said before I personally have nothing against EQ2, but thats not to say others don't have valid complaints.
a) Again, just because it may not be something exclusive to SOE it doesn't make it right.
b) Again, and this is only of SWG as an SOE game, I personally didn't experience this with EQ2, of the other games I played I never encountered were threads with regards to the bugs caused by new patches in the test centre were completely ignored. It was routine (and from what I can see from reading the SWG official forums still is) to ignore huge bugs such as those that would allow people to make themselves unable to suffer damage, attack while invisible, and push the patch to live knowing full well that the damage on the live server wouldn't be able to be fixed until the next patch or that one after it. Crafters were also horribly affected, unable to craft certain things. Other classes would suffer huge problems, basically making the game unplayable for them, but the point is SOE knew about these bugs, they were warned repeatedly and still they delete posts, lock threads and push to live.
c) I have played quite a few MMOs and TBH never have I seen such a wilfull disregard to the playing community that was shown by SOE to SWG players and the pushing of known big bugs to live is just a prime example.
3) Selling expansions that are not complete. Ok, which expansions are you referring to exactly, cause if it's nothing other then SWG expansions, I'm sure anyone, whether they like SOE or not doesn't care. Everyone, SOE lovers and haters knows SWG is a pile of dung, but I'm afraid SOE isn't the only company behind that masterpiece. So perhaps we should point the finger at the true culprits, like Lucas Arts Entertainment, eh?
A) This is from the CBS Mailbag on SOE:
When SOE took full control over EverQuest, they would release
expansions 60% complete and not tell the customer. People would go out
and purchase expansions for EverQuest (More content) at $29.99. 6
months later, using subscription revenue, SOE would actually finish the
40% of the content of the expansion that consumers already paid for.
For example, the Planes of Power expansion. It retailed for $29.99. The
last parts of the game were called Plane of Earth, Plane of Fire, Plane
of Air, Plane of Water, and the final reward zone, called Plane of
Time. These 5 zones accounted for 40% of the Planes of Power expansion.
Those zones were not complete when people bought the product.
Instead, SOE introduced artifical bugs to make sure players could not
progress into the next areas. Once they completed the area that
consumers already paid for, they would "fix" the bug, and let people
advance. It took 8 months worth of subscription revenue from players to
finish the development of the final 5 areas in Planes of Power.
I know this because I used to be a member of the Guide program. The
volunteer customer service department for SOE at the time. We were
given explocit instructions that if we zoned into those areas, we would
be kicked from the guide program. Well, I zoned into those areas the
day of retail release. And what I saw was amazing. I saw 5 completely
barren areas, with strange "developer boxes" everywhere, without a good
majority of the environment even done for the zones themselves. I know
first hand that the zones were not completed.
Now to be totally honest I have no experience personally with what
this person has said about EQ and the way their expansions were put
out, however I do have a friend (who because of EQ I didn't see very
much of for 3 years) who did experience just this and confirmed for me
that what is said is true.
In my own experience, I can vouch for the same being true with the
SWG expansion "The Rage of the Wookies" (its the only one I got as soon
as it came out). That expansion was disgusting. You couldn't complete
quests, many mobs were completely unattackable and the pathing issues
were horrible. And thats how they pushed it to live.
4) SWG reference, doesn't count because SWG isn't entirely SOE's fault and besides, its one game, as hugely important as it was to SW fans, it was destined to fail no matter who created it.
a) We can argue all day on whether or not it was destined to fail, but that is not the issue I am raising.
The issue is SOE's treatment of the players of SWG. Now you have said that all the blame doesn't rest on SOE's shoulders, but is shared with L.A., if SOE comes out and makes that claim, if John Smedly says that the issues I have are there becuase of L.A. then I will be happy to change my tune about the whole thing.
As of yet it appears that SOE is driving the boat on this one, especially where it comes to all the treatment of customers and completeness of the product.
5) Used bots to reply to customer service tickets? This is nothing new to the MMO market and once again, not an SOE exclusive issue.
a) Again, just because it may not be something exclusive to SOE it doesn't make it right.
b) And again, I have never had an automated system reply to my customer service ticket before except for when a patch in a game caused a huge gamewide bug and the response said something to the effect of "We know about this bug and are working on fixing it ASAP"
6) Lied to their customers? Once again, if this is tied into that SWG whatchamakalit, don't really care. If your referring to another SOE game, please explain what they lied about, who said it and I'll be kind enough to accept your point as valid. As of right now, I won't hold SWG against SOE cause I have half a brain and realize it's not SOE's game entirely and if they can make games like EQ and EQ2, then 1 out of 3 ain't bad, right?
a) Since I have half a brain I won't simply assume that the product of SWG which is run by SOE and developed by SOE isn't to blame on SOE.
b) I could of course give you many many many examples of SOE lying about SWG, however, since you wanted another game, how about EQ2?
Now this example isn't something I have any personal experience with because I really didn't care to even try and unlock the froglok race in the game.
This example comes again from the CBS Mailbag mentioned before, perhaps you or someone else can confirm if its true or not, perhaps i will post a thread in the EQ2 forums to see what the consensus is over there.
Here it is:
In EverQuest 2, there is a world event quest that would introduce the
froglok playable race to EverQuest 2. Players had to figure out the
quest to unlock the race. Well, people started trying to figure out how
to go about doing the quest, and working on it. They looked everywhere
for clues, used months of play time. When they asked SOE if the quest
existed at launch, an SOE community manager stated that the quest was
in.
Six months later, SOE added the actual quest. People were in an
uproar. SOE basically used a quest that didn't exist to keep players
paying a subscription to figure out something that never even existed
in the game. Imagine spending 10-12 hours a week for 6 months, and in
the end, what you were trying to figure out wasn't even possible, and
the reason why SOE didn't say anything was because it lengthened your
subscription time.
Edit: Just found this in the EQ2 Forums.
SWG RIP
moctodumegws
Can't WAIT!
If anyone would like to share their experiences with SOE please feel free to e-mail me the testimonial at informedgamer@gmail.com
If you can provide any proof to support your claims please send me the links to it as well such as Dev chats, interviews, forum posts, etc.
Thank You,
The Informed Gamer
SWG RIP
moctodumegws
Can't WAIT!
SWG ADDICT...clean since the NGE
Hey "cumbom", I cant figure out guys like you. Im not going to take your bait in continuing a point by point argument of endless minutiae. Instead, I'm just going to ask you why you would continue to pay to play SOE games and dedicate valuable time to a /blog crusade?
I mean really dude. Its a game. It isnt (or at least shouldnt be) a defining facet of your life. Guys like you seem to want to twist things like this into some sort of Ralph Nader consumer crusade issue as if youre campaigning against faulty airbags or the tobacco companies, but the reality is that its a GAME. A game you pay to play. Why do you need to convince the world that SOE should be avoided? You view it that you're doing some kind of service to "the public" but youre really just feeding a personal dysfunction. Just let go man.
If you hate the way SOE handles its customers and/or the game bothers you to the point of dedicating a /blog to "warning unknowing consumers", it's time to move on.
People arent at some kind of big risk here. They'll spend $30 on the game, use their free month, and if they decide they dont like it (which they're able to do on their own), they'll quit. The world really doesnt need a dedicated batch of crusaders exposing "the hidden evils" of MMO customer support.
Go after the oil companies or something.
To the original poster btw. You're right EQ/SoE hatred is at an all time high.
TSS has been announced and people are pissed. I am now joining the hoard of people that say "fix broken content first".
I've played EQ since pre kunark and as of the new announcement I am done. They do not listen to players and the amount of people online is dwindling you can log in and see it happening. The progressive servers they just created are actually having the opposite though.
Shows anyone quite clearly playing EQ that the older content is desired heavily and the new crap they keep churning out is not drawing in the masses anymore.
They have pics of the new Drakkin race and it's once again just another cookie cutter of yet another human variation, despite the results of the polls asking time and again what type of race people would enjoy they went with human styled yet again.
This game isn't still growing strong, it's dwindling. And now the new expansion is digital download only, that means they will only be getting new player attention from current people who are online in some form or another instead of grabbing the people who don't yet play online games from retail stores.
Seriously stupid move imo.
I can directly respond to the 3 I highlighted in green text above. As a beta tester for many of EQ expansions the players I played with on Beta send in numberous /feedback and /bug reports well over the course of a month or more and the Developers only focused on Raiding guild aspects.
We informed them many times of very specific bugs and yet they went live and exploiters exploited those bugs tot he fullest degree.
The expansions are NEVER complete ever. They claim at times they didn't have time to insert certain feature by the time it went live, well those are just half truths, it is true they didn't ahve time and why you ask? The beta testers knew why, they only focus on the highest ended raiding content period. If you are curious as to why they would do that well the answer is that their income comes now from people playing with bot/hydra toons now. The highest end guilds run 2-4 bots at all times now. EQ caters to the money and nothing else now.
Anything anyone else tells any of you is just propoganda.
Now I just want to add something here, I have no beef with SoE, it's EQ that I have experience with. When SoE releases the DC Online Heroes game for PC and Xbox360 I will be right there.
Should change the name to "The Biased Gamer" Or "The One Sided Gamer"
Happy people do not post. For everyone one story you get, there could be thousands of happy players.
Here is some evidence for you: In 4 years of Eq I have never had a problem with SOE. No overcharges, no double charges, no GM problems, no technical issues that werent my fault.
So you're not happy either? Good to know.
Ok now first off I'd like to say that these are games people......Not ways of life. Your supposed to play games to have fun...period. If a game is not fun to you, you delete it and move on. You DON'T go on a Ralph Nader crusade to tell the whole world how evil it is. IT'S A STUPID GAME!! GET OVER YOURSELF!!
Now that said on to SoE...
SoE is a division of Sony corp. SoE's only purpose in life is to make money.....period. This is what big corporations do. SoE is no different then Microsoft, Blizzard, NC Soft or a multitude of others in this respect. I believe they do listen to their customers to a point but only if it adds to their bottom line in the end. SWG was a gamble they took to try to cash in on the WoW crowd and it failed miserably. This is not uncommon in the corporate world....you take chances...some pay off, others don't. It is also commonplace in the corporate world to lie or tell half truths to your consumer base to increase sales. Every company I have mentioned does this. Is it right? No but it is commonplace and not just a SoE problem. SoE's only real problem is they have produced some great games in the past and when they make changes to those games it's bound to make some people mad. Those people who get mad and come here to vocalize their anger are actually a very small percentage of the overall gaming community. Let me give you an example.....
At the time PoP was released for EQ there were about 500,000 active subscribers. This expansion was very buggy and unfinished but most of the content was completely playable. Now if we believe the "Ralph Naders" of this thread then most of the consumer base was upset by this but I can tell you that there were less then 200 seperate posters making very vocal complaints about this. That's 200 out of 500,000 people that is .04% of the consumer base. A VERY low percentage indeed. These are the numbers that a big corporation like Sony looks at when addressing consumer complaints.
Now I'm NOT defending corporate America or SoE in any way. I'm just saying that I understand why they react to things the way they do and don't get out my "Soapbox" and start preaching to the chior about them. We all know they suck.....All game companies do to some degree but when you get a bad game or have a bad experience with a game company do us all a favor and just go play something else. These personal crusades are stupid and pointless and most of the gaming community just doesn't care. Most of us just want to play games and have fun. GET OVER IT, IT'S A STUPID GAME!!!!
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ok first off I'd like to say the first posters web-site seems to have disappeared. So all the conspiracy theorists can suggest what SOE had to do to make that happen
Second - freedom of speech - if you are getting crap service, or this game sucks feel free to come and complain about it so people can learn from your mistakes.
Third - anyone dealing in customer service knows that most consumers cant be bothered complaining they just go somewhere else where they can get better service. Oh and bad mouth that company to all their friends, family and even total strangers if asked for an opinion. Don't know the exact percent but it wouldnt surprise me if its like 1% who will actually complain.
I'm anti-crusader, not anti-free speech. I guess I should have made that more clear.
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I played EQ for 3 years starting pre-Kunark. I left right around Dungeons of Norrath expansion. I was so fed up at lvl 70 as a paladin LFG for 2-3 hours just to get a grind group somewhere on the planes. Sony did everything they could to nerf this or that, making the game pretty unbearable to play. So I found SWG, not realizing that SOE would do worse in the future. I quested, did the endless grinds to become one of those (at the time anyways) rare Jedi Masters. Then came NGE......there were friggin Jedi everywhere. You couldn't walk into Theed without such massive lag issues because of the 900 or so lightsabers out in duels.
Sony took 2 games I use to enjoy and ran them both into the ground. People do expect certain things not only in life but in their gaming as well and that is consistancy. Now SOE is fairly consistant with screwing their player base but that is not what I mean. If you are for instance a Paladin and you can do certain things and the one day a patch comes out and you can't do that anymore because some dev thinks you are now too powerful, you're going to be a little upset. Have this done to you on a regular basis and I gaurantee that eventually you will get tired of it and move on.
I don't belittle anyone for the contnued support of SOE or any other company into MMO's, but I know SOE will never get another dime from me. For now I play WoW until AoC comes out, then we'll see from there.....