Originally posted by dink No one EVER PUGs MC or Onxyia because there is no way to distribute the loot fairly. ======== /roll 1-100
according to Kaplan in his NY Times interview - can't link due to subscription) - that's about 5% of the player base. =========== That's a surprising figure.Hopefully when these new games are released WoW subs will plummet and they'll get the message.
40-man raids are not a challenge. ========== The people who enjoy them think they are I guess..let's do the math..5% do them,5% of that number enjoy doing them
zakk - We were discussing challenge. . . not enjoyment - though I'm fairly certain that even amongst those people who repeat 40-man raiids over and over, none or very very few of them would say they "enjoyed" them. They are just suffering through them to get the best loot in the game.
Originally posted by dink Originally posted by damian7 Originally posted by Niber I signed up because of 40 man raids. I realize I may be a minority but I'm glad WoW caters to many types of players.
good thing that wow caters exclusively to it's 0.66% crowd due to a pair of morons they stupidly hired. shame those morons cost them all of their talent - blizzard north.
damian7 - Are you following Stieg Hedlund's (Blizzard North's designer of Diablo, Diablo II, and Starcraft) new game? If you don't know which one it is, here's a hint - it won Best of Show at more MMORPG sites (including this one) than any other upcoming MMO?
unfortunately yes. it sounds great, except that soe is involved. given, it doesn't sound like they have any creative control or anything to really make g&h's team do stupid things -- but, after the CU in swg (much less the NGE) PLUS soe created eq --- thusly spawning raids, which in turn created the assclowns we know as pardo and kaplan, which in turn helped blizzard lose the blizzard north talent.... man, i never thought about how much crap in mmo's is soe's fault until just NOW...
yeah, soe's name just makes me shudder. but who knows? maybe we'll luck out and they really WON'T mess the game up.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
damian - They aren't with SOE, but with Sony Platform Publishing. . . which is a child corporation of SOE. This is an important difference though.
First. Sony PP will ONLY be printing the CDs, box art, and doing marketing for the store release, etc. That's it. Period. The reason PE contracted out for this is that setting up deals with CD manufacturers, box manufacturers, distributors, and reatilers is really expensive. It is much less expensive and much faster to use a company that already has these connections. You can expect that Sony PP won't even be doing this little bit for Star Trek Online. My guess is that PE may have gotten a sweet deal out of this because Sony will really benefit from having their name associated with a product that is good (even if they have nothing to do with it).
P.E. will control customer service, billing, and game servers too. Basically, after you buy the box in stores, you'll never be sending another dime to Sony Platform Publishing - and more importantly, they never touch the game from Day One and will never ever touch the game. They are more contract labor than they are publishers.
The problem with raiding in WoW is that raiding is a hardcore task and WoW itself starts off as a very casual game. Couple that with the fact WoW has a less then desirable community and the fact that any half-retarded 12 yr. old joe can solo any class from 1-60 w/out ever speaking a word to anyone = horrible raiding experience.
To have a game built around raiding you first need a game thats hardcore from the ground up and have a decent community.
The problem with raiding in WoW is that the raids are static. Same thing every time. No random events, no dynamic scripting, no real AI. Rather than making a raid just an oversized 5-man dungeon, raids should be large-scale battles that requires group-based teamwork. Mobs should attack in waves and such and follow RTS-style AI rules so the game is different every time. Unfortunately, we'll probably never see this implemented. Sad.
Insert generic anime quote/My Chemical Romance lyrics here.
Originally posted by pingofdeath The problem with raiding in WoW is that the raids are static. Same thing every time. No random events, no dynamic scripting, no real AI. Rather than making a raid just an oversized 5-man dungeon, raids should be large-scale battles that requires group-based teamwork. Mobs should attack in waves and such and follow RTS-style AI rules so the game is different every time. Unfortunately, we'll probably never see this implemented. Sad.
THAT sounds fun. raids and instances that are always changing (or at least have random events/rooms/etc in them) is ALWAYS a good idea!
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
First and foremost raiding isn't a bad idea, its the way loot is dispersed that is wrong, It's clearly a time sink, especially when you take the DKP system into mind, whoever goes along for the run the most gets the gear because they have higher points to roll on items, so in order to get your tier 1 epic set and everything you'll probably have to do MC about 50 or so times, then onto BWL for your tier 2, and soon Nax for tier 3, all you have to do is show up the most, and obviously who the guild leaders bring along more often is open to favoritism, and often has little to do with how skilled they are.
Raid leaders and guild leaders are not paragon's of virtue, it shouldnt be up to them who gets what.
What would be a far better idea is to have quests to achieve the epic gear, some NPC wants you to kill a certain boss in *add 40 man raid here*, get in on a raid, kill him, get the gear for achieving an "epic" feat, done. All 40 man raids have enough bosses there could be class specific quests for each to end up getting everything you want, the problem is because they charge monthly subscriptions it's better economics to make it take as much time as possible to get what you want.
Originally posted by Necran First and foremost raiding isn't a bad idea, its the way loot is dispersed that is wrong, It's clearly a time sink, especially when you take the DKP system into mind, whoever goes along for the run the most gets the gear because they have higher points to roll on items, so in order to get your tier 1 epic set and everything you'll probably have to do MC about 50 or so times, then onto BWL for your tier 2, and soon Nax for tier 3, all you have to do is show up the most, and obviously who the guild leaders bring along more often is open to favoritism, and often has little to do with how skilled they are.
Raid leaders and guild leaders are not paragon's of virtue, it shouldnt be up to them who gets what.
What would be a far better idea is to have quests to achieve the epic gear, some NPC wants you to kill a certain boss in *add 40 man raid here*, get in on a raid, kill him, get the gear for achieving an "epic" feat, done. All 40 man raids have enough bosses there could be class specific quests for each to end up getting everything you want, the problem is because they charge monthly subscriptions it's better economics to make it take as much time as possible to get what you want.
True, I always loved systems where as a guild or group we could truly come together to help others get their gear, not herd cats into some casino from hell where you have to pray on this 700000th run the item even drops to be rolled on. It also kept me interested knowing that I actually could gather up a group of friends and actually help someone get an item they needed. Not just take another pull at the slot machine of loot.
Seriously, set armors and weapons should be rewards from class trainers, mentors or hero NPC's of your class. They should set forth goals, required items, etc that then prove you worthy of recieving a piece of "epic" gear. Other than being a thinly veiled timesink, the current system is truly idiotic.
As for keeping people paying - there seems to be a point where many people will just burn out or give up even without getting those items that kept them chasing the carrot so long. I for one would rather finally cancel because I've been everywhere, done everything, have the best gear available and just can't seem to find anyone else that needs help - than hitting some glass ceiling like WoW's current raid based endgame. And I tell you what, I bet others wouldn't be so bitter either. Sure people would still whine about WoW being easymode, but at least people would get to experience the whole game before burnout.
In EQ different races/classes had specific "Epic" gear quests. The quests were hellishly long and difficult, but when you finished them, you had the gear, guarenteed. Sometimes these quests took you into raids, but there wasn't any random chance invovled.
Insert generic anime quote/My Chemical Romance lyrics here.
Comments
zakk - We were discussing challenge. . . not enjoyment - though I'm fairly certain that even amongst those people who repeat 40-man raiids over and over, none or very very few of them would say they "enjoyed" them. They are just suffering through them to get the best loot in the game.
good thing that wow caters exclusively to it's 0.66% crowd due to a pair of morons they stupidly hired. shame those morons cost them all of their talent - blizzard north.
damian7 - Are you following Stieg Hedlund's (Blizzard North's designer of Diablo, Diablo II, and Starcraft) new game? If you don't know which one it is, here's a hint - it won Best of Show at more MMORPG sites (including this one) than any other upcoming MMO?
unfortunately yes. it sounds great, except that soe is involved. given, it doesn't sound like they have any creative control or anything to really make g&h's team do stupid things -- but, after the CU in swg (much less the NGE) PLUS soe created eq --- thusly spawning raids, which in turn created the assclowns we know as pardo and kaplan, which in turn helped blizzard lose the blizzard north talent.... man, i never thought about how much crap in mmo's is soe's fault until just NOW...
yeah, soe's name just makes me shudder. but who knows? maybe we'll luck out and they really WON'T mess the game up.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
damian - They aren't with SOE, but with Sony Platform Publishing. . . which is a child corporation of SOE. This is an important difference though.
First. Sony PP will ONLY be printing the CDs, box art, and doing marketing for the store release, etc. That's it. Period. The reason PE contracted out for this is that setting up deals with CD manufacturers, box manufacturers, distributors, and reatilers is really expensive. It is much less expensive and much faster to use a company that already has these connections. You can expect that Sony PP won't even be doing this little bit for Star Trek Online. My guess is that PE may have gotten a sweet deal out of this because Sony will really benefit from having their name associated with a product that is good (even if they have nothing to do with it).
P.E. will control customer service, billing, and game servers too. Basically, after you buy the box in stores, you'll never be sending another dime to Sony Platform Publishing - and more importantly, they never touch the game from Day One and will never ever touch the game. They are more contract labor than they are publishers.
The problem with raiding in WoW is that raiding is a hardcore task and WoW itself starts off as a very casual game. Couple that with the fact WoW has a less then desirable community and the fact that any half-retarded 12 yr. old joe can solo any class from 1-60 w/out ever speaking a word to anyone = horrible raiding experience.
To have a game built around raiding you first need a game thats hardcore from the ground up and have a decent community.
The problem with raiding in WoW is that the raids are static. Same thing every time. No random events, no dynamic scripting, no real AI. Rather than making a raid just an oversized 5-man dungeon, raids should be large-scale battles that requires group-based teamwork. Mobs should attack in waves and such and follow RTS-style AI rules so the game is different every time. Unfortunately, we'll probably never see this implemented. Sad.
Insert generic anime quote/My Chemical Romance lyrics here.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
its the way loot is dispersed that is wrong, It's clearly a time sink, especially when you take the DKP system into mind, whoever goes along for the run the most gets the gear because they have higher points to roll on items,
so in order to get your tier 1 epic set and everything you'll probably have to do MC about 50 or so times, then onto BWL for your tier 2, and soon Nax for tier 3, all you have to do is show up the most, and obviously who the guild leaders bring along more often is open to favoritism, and often has little to do with how skilled they are.
Raid leaders and guild leaders are not paragon's of virtue, it shouldnt be up to them who gets what.
What would be a far better idea is to have quests to achieve the epic gear, some NPC wants you to kill a certain boss in *add 40 man raid here*, get in on a raid, kill him, get the gear for achieving an "epic" feat, done.
All 40 man raids have enough bosses there could be class specific quests for each to end up getting everything you want, the problem is because they charge monthly subscriptions it's better economics to make it take as much time as possible to get what you want.
Insert generic anime quote/My Chemical Romance lyrics here.