If DDO was to accept Guildwars' payment plan.....

tigris67

If DDO was to run their Payment plan the same as Guildwars, as a one time fee, Would it churn out more numbers than Guildwars has? I mean they are both somewhat instanced type games from what I hear. If they were to both use the same plan, would one overpower the other?

Shurijo

The two games are still pretty different. GuildWars has some PvE, but focuses on PvP. DDO is just PvE (I'd hate to see it after they try and introduce PvP).

Or you could go another route and have a free downloadable/playable game that charges a one time price to access specific things (like a new race, certain dungeons access, classes, etc.) (see Dungeon Runners)

I think this model might be the new way (it will take a while to catch on). Or maybe a combo method, where you pay for the box (to help quickly get some money back into the company), but online is free and you pay individual items (races, classes, adventure sets, etc.) in addition to getting a free base game (with base races, classes, items, etc.). Paying for the items you want without the monthly committment.

There's a lot of MMO things that I'm really tired of and I see some of them are slowly going away. I just hope that the game content doesn't suffer for it.

grimboj

Guild Wars only works because their developers allow farming. Farming items and doing the same things again and again is all you can do in games where the max level is less than a weeks work. I left DDO 10 days after I bought it, bored stiff with the nerdy 'i play 30 minutes a day, must leave party now' community and at level 9.5/10 and because all farming opportunities were being removed gradually.

seabass2003

If DDO did the Guildwars payment plan, they would easily sell over a million copies by the end of the year. The reason Guildwars did well was because most people were thinking finally a non-subscribtion based mmo. Also grandparents and parents bought Guildwars as gifts knowing they wouldn't have to follow up with a monthly payment. Almost any game without a subscribtion is bound to sell many copies.

Elnator

Yep they'd sell a lot more boxes if they went to a non subscription basis.  Hell they could even put in-game adds in and people would still play it.  Adds don't bother me if done properly and tastefully.  They  provide a moderate revenue stream to the company as well.  AO and PlanetSide both do it quite sucessfully.  If they did it on the 'loading' screens in DDO (god knows you get enough of them) they could make a killing off add revenue.

I'd buy it if there weren't a monthly fee.  But right now, as the game stands, I'll just continue playing free trials.  It's not worth $15 a month   The first 3-5 levels are the most fun anyway.

Shurijo

I would have loved it, if they would have created the base game with all of the PHB and DMG material and sold the box for $50. Then each book (such as Races of Eberron, Magic of Eberron, etc.) could have been an add-on for $20-30 (release about one every quarter). The books would include new content (races, items, classes, PrCs, adventures), etc.

I think the microtransaction (non-subscription) model is the way of the future (not what I stated in this post). NC Soft is releasing 3-4 games this year and next using this method (no subscription with micropayments for specific items).

Yeebo

If they went to a "no subscription fee but pay for modules" system I'd consider trying this game, personally.  However, I don't think it would get up to Guildwars numbers.  The bad hype around launch pretty much shot this game in the back of the head.

Elnator

Nah it's not too late... if they did something like this NOW they could probably save their sorry hides... there are 90k people subscribing to the game.... word would get around FAST.

But if they wait too long it'll be too late.

thepatriot

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Originally posted by seabass2003
If DDO did the Guildwars payment plan, they would easily sell over a million copies by the end of the year. The reason Guildwars did well was because most people were thinking finally a non-subscribtion based mmo. Also grandparents and parents bought Guildwars as gifts knowing they wouldn't have to follow up with a monthly payment. Almost any game without a subscribtion is bound to sell many copies.

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Then why don't badly designed single player PC games sell a million copies.  DDO's problem is not with it's subscription, it's a badly designed game.

seabass2003

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Originally posted by thepatriot

Originally posted by seabass2003
If DDO did the Guildwars payment plan, they would easily sell over a million copies by the end of the year. The reason Guildwars did well was because most people were thinking finally a non-subscribtion based mmo. Also grandparents and parents bought Guildwars as gifts knowing they wouldn't have to follow up with a monthly payment. Almost any game without a subscribtion is bound to sell many copies.

Then why don't badly designed single player PC games sell a million copies.  DDO's problem is not with it's subscription, it's a badly designed game.

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You should at least state why its a badly designed game. No one I know ever said they didn't like the game only that they wouldn't pay a monthly fee.

thepatriot

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Originally posted by seabass2003


You should at least state why its a badly designed game. No one I know ever said they didn't like the game only that they wouldn't pay a monthly fee.

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At this point with all of the anectdotal posts on message boards accross the internet about DDO it can generally be supposed that DDO missed the mark.  The idea that if it didn't have a monthly subscription then it would sell a million copies is flawed as you can ask any developor how difficult it is to make a million seller game in any genre.  We can suppose it is badly desigined because it is not selling well and that players are leaving the game.  Wether the issue is with gameplay or lack of content is insignificant.  If it were well designed then we would not be having this debate.

Edit:  This does not imply that the game is not fixable for whatever problems it may have, simply that as it stands right now the game is flawed.

Scaris

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Originally posted by tigris67
If DDO was to run their Payment plan the same as Guildwars, as a one time fee, Would it churn out more numbers than Guildwars has? I mean they are both somewhat instanced type games from what I hear. If they were to both use the same plan, would one overpower the other?

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It still wouldn't be as muh value for the dollar or as fun as Guild Wars is.

Elnator

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Originally posted by Fadeus


Originally posted by tigris67
If DDO was to run their Payment plan the same as Guildwars, as a one time fee, Would it churn out more numbers than Guildwars has? I mean they are both somewhat instanced type games from what I hear. If they were to both use the same plan, would one overpower the other?

It still wouldn't be as muh value for the dollar or as fun as Guild Wars is.

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True but it's very different than Guild Wars... if it didn't have a fee attached I'd probably buy it.  But with a fee?  Not a chance.  But if it didn't have a fee I'd definitely pick it up.  It's a fun game.  Just not worth a fee.  And everyone I personally know and have talked to feels pretty much the same.  As mentioned before a BUNCH of people here are gamers (at work).... most of us have at least tried DDO and all that have tried it have said 'fun, but not worth a fee'.  I think all of us would pick it up if it weren't a fee based game.

Scaris

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Originally posted by Elnator

Originally posted by Fadeus Originally posted by tigris67If DDO was to run their Payment plan the same as Guildwars, as a one time fee, Would it churn out more numbers than Guildwars has? I mean they are both somewhat instanced type games from what I hear. If they were to both use the same plan, would one overpower the other?
It still wouldn't be as muh value for the dollar or as fun as Guild Wars is.
True but it's very different than Guild Wars... if it didn't have a fee attached I'd probably buy it.  But with a fee?  Not a chance.  But if it didn't have a fee I'd definitely pick it up.  It's a fun game.  Just not worth a fee.  And everyone I personally know and have talked to feels pretty much the same.  As mentioned before a BUNCH of people here are gamers (at work).... most of us have at least tried DDO and all that have tried it have said 'fun, but not worth a fee'.  I think all of us would pick it up if it weren't a fee based game.

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I really couldn't even get a sense of fun from it El. All I keept seeing was yet another basement that needed cleaning of mob [X]. And ontop of that it is carrying the D&D label which makes it even worse.

Elnator

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Originally posted by Fadeus


Originally posted by Elnator

Originally posted by Fadeus

Originally posted by tigris67If DDO was to run their Payment plan the same as Guildwars, as a one time fee, Would it churn out more numbers than Guildwars has? I mean they are both somewhat instanced type games from what I hear. If they were to both use the same plan, would one overpower the other?


It still wouldn't be as muh value for the dollar or as fun as Guild Wars is.
True but it's very different than Guild Wars... if it didn't have a fee attached I'd probably buy it.  But with a fee?  Not a chance.  But if it didn't have a fee I'd definitely pick it up.  It's a fun game.  Just not worth a fee.  And everyone I personally know and have talked to feels pretty much the same.  As mentioned before a BUNCH of people here are gamers (at work).... most of us have at least tried DDO and all that have tried it have said 'fun, but not worth a fee'.  I think all of us would pick it up if it weren't a fee based game.

I really couldn't even get a sense of fun from it El. All I keept seeing was yet another basement that needed cleaning of mob [X]. And ontop of that it is carrying the D&D label which makes it even worse.

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I kind of enjoy the combat system.  I don't like having to keep track of targets but I do like the way they implemented the actual ruleset of AD&D though I do wish they had target/lock and autostick type features.  Because the FPS mix is annoying.  I get around that by playing caster classes   TAB till you have approprite target then nuke the bejesus out of them.  No need to keep that pesky cursor on them.

But yeah it's not as good as it should be but it wouldn't be bad as a free to play game.  I don't think it'd do as well as Guild Wars but it would certainly net a ton more than 300k box sales.

seabass2003

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Originally posted by Fadeus


Originally posted by Elnator

Originally posted by Fadeus

Originally posted by tigris67If DDO was to run their Payment plan the same as Guildwars, as a one time fee, Would it churn out more numbers than Guildwars has? I mean they are both somewhat instanced type games from what I hear. If they were to both use the same plan, would one overpower the other?


It still wouldn't be as muh value for the dollar or as fun as Guild Wars is.
True but it's very different than Guild Wars... if it didn't have a fee attached I'd probably buy it.  But with a fee?  Not a chance.  But if it didn't have a fee I'd definitely pick it up.  It's a fun game.  Just not worth a fee.  And everyone I personally know and have talked to feels pretty much the same.  As mentioned before a BUNCH of people here are gamers (at work).... most of us have at least tried DDO and all that have tried it have said 'fun, but not worth a fee'.  I think all of us would pick it up if it weren't a fee based game.

I really couldn't even get a sense of fun from it El. All I keept seeing was yet another basement that needed cleaning of mob [X]. And ontop of that it is carrying the D&D label which makes it even worse.

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All I can say is EVERY mmo has the quest kill x mob. Not much else. Except some mmo offer craft x item. I actually like the fact that you have to do a complete quest in order to be rewarded xp. Too many times have I grouped in other mmo's that we stood in one spot killing the same mobs over and over and over to gain xp. Maybe thats my fault maybe not, who knows but finishing a complete quest feels more rewarding than killing over and over.

Elnator

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Originally posted by seabass2003
I actually like the fact that you have to do a complete quest in order to be rewarded xp. Too many times have I grouped in other mmo's that we stood in one spot killing the same mobs over and over and over to gain xp. Maybe thats my fault maybe not, who knows but finishing a complete quest feels more rewarding than killing over and over.

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Agree to a point.  There are lots of things I don't like about DDO, which is why I refuse to buy it.  But that 1 thing really is enjoyable.  I like getting into a quest and doing a dungeon CRAWL.  It's also why I liked the adventure wings and instanced dungeons in DAOC but they always left me feeling kind of empty.  DDO's adventures are quite fun.

• Yes I think it sucks that there's no world (it's one of the reasons I won't buy it).
• Yes I think it sucks that there's no crafting (another reason I won't buy it).
• Yes I think it sucks that there's no real roleplay encouragement and VERY few emotes to even help with it (yet another reason I won't buy it).
• Yes I think it's utterly INSANE that you can't be of evil alignment (what is UP with that)  <=== not a reason I won't buy it but it is odd.  I LOVE playing chaotic evil rogues and lawful evil shadowknights
• Yes I think the combat system is silly for an RPG... I really don't like the actuall combat system it's just too frantic feeling.  I don't like chasing a damn monster all over the damn dungeon while he runs around trying to avoid me.  Realistic? Yeah... Anoying??? Hell yes. 

But the adventures ARE fun... So I play the free trial   LOL
And with 14 email accounts maybe I'll have enough time playing free trials till they adress a few of those reasons I won't buy it so that I might buy it once I run out of email accounts   LOL

brostyn

There is one way DDO will get me to subscribe. Add a storyline, add a world to explore w/ xp giving mobs, add interaction from NPCs, and of course, soloing through all levels, and no raiding. I do not like to be constrained, because I can't find a group. There is EQ and DAoC RvR for that just to name a few.

wjrasmussen

My single biggest issue with the game is lack of content. That will not be fixed by free subscriptions.

Mikes123

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Originally posted by grimboj
Guild Wars only works because their developers allow farming. Farming items and doing the same things again and again is all you can do in games where the max level is less than a weeks work. I left DDO 10 days after I bought it, bored stiff with the nerdy 'i play 30 minutes a day, must leave party now' community and at level 9.5/10 and because all farming opportunities were being removed gradually.

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wich couldn t be further from the truth... might want to at least read up on a game before dissing it.

1st. The majority of Guildwars content storymissions/quests etc pretty much starts AFTER you hit lvl 20, leveling up is pretty much the "tutorial phase" of the game
2nd. lvl 20 and a cap on armor/weapon stats ensure an even playing field at lvl 20 for PvE and PvP as well. gear and lvl differences have pretty much no effect on gameplay, instead your skill, strategy and teamwork matters.
3rd. farming is possible but purely optional and does not offer any rewards at all except "cooler looks" in some cases (rare weapons have unique looks but still have the same stats as readily available "collector" weapons)
4th. Guildwars is the only MMOrpg on the market offering true competitive PvP gameplay. They even hold tournaments and World Championships with price money.

Guildwars is very appealing to a multitude of playstyles, casual, hardcore, PvP, PvE, without allowing one style to dominate the other like you see it in traditional raid centric MMOs.

DDO definitely caters to PvEers and claims to cater to casual gamers, but at the same time introduces things like the Dragon Vault questline that definitely caters to hardcore gamers, and also offers superior rewards wich has the casual crowd miffed to some extent. so i d think DDO first needs to decide whom it really wants to cater to Casual or Hardcore gamers or both, and if it wants to cater to both then it has to find a balance between the styles in similar fashian as Guildwars did, ..... and i can t really see how "Vault of the Night" fits in there at all, it pisses off casual gamers and at the same time hardcore gamers don t seem to like it much either lol.

That being said, DDO and Guildwars both use instances, other than that, they are as different as an Apple and an Orange. So comparing them is kinda silly, for starters DDO is a PvE/Quest centric game, while the whole idea of Guildwars is offering a balanced PvP experience + story driven PvE missions.

As for the Business model Guildwars works with no monthly fee but revoles around new Chapters every 6 month that are being sold.  i thought DDOs justification for the monthly fee were "regular content updates" and that sounded cool too, however imho they have to bring a whole more lot to the table than the stuff they showed in the "Dragon Vault update" if that is supposed to work in the longterm.

But point in case: DDO is very fun to play, incredibly fun when you play the dungeons the first time,... but it s  low on content and also low on replayability, the later touching on "no PvP at all" and "no farming either" both but especially on "no variety when repeating content". simply removing the monthly fee wouldn t lead to people to suddenly drop their things and play DDO for all time, it would still be low on content and low on replayability. However, i ll happily keep paying the monthly fee, IF, IF IF IF they finally get their stuff together produce future content updates that are worth the money.

P.S. i m still paying and hoping for DDO, however i m kinda sad to say that i didn t log in at all for the last 2 weeks. waiting to see what happens on the "content" front within the next 1-2 months before making a final decision.

Elnator

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Originally posted by Mikes123

However, i ll happily keep paying the monthly fee, IF, IF IF IF they finally get their stuff together produce future content updates that are worth the money.

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In my opinion you just hit the key, #1, issue with DDO:
It's charging $15 a month to play.  That equates to $180 annually.  In order to justify that kind of price they would need to come out with at least TWO major (and I mean 'whole new game sized') content updates a year.  And they just aren't doing that.  For $180 I could buy a whole new game every 3 months (new as in just off the presses new).  DDO needs to make sure that they're providing nearly that level of service.  I wouldn't mind the monthly fee so much if that were the case.

But as things stand right now the game is not worth a monthly fee.