played it for almost 2 years now ( just reactivated my account last month again)
they cool thing about L2 is that they are adding massive new content every 6 months or so, which they call "chronicles" and at the moment they are at Chronicle 4 ( already some info on C5 on www.l2blah.com)
but the bad things on this game is that every new chronicle its more and more based on the higher lvls with new raid content and armors/weaponry.
why is this bad u think? cuz it took me nearly 2 years now to get to lvl 58 ( lvl 75 is max) as a non-hardcore gamer.
this asian based mmorpg is fun for when u play like 9 hours a nite and really like long grinds
I recently re-subbed to L2 just to see what had changed. I cancelled very soon afterwards.
To this day there really isn't anything to do but grind. The quests are still lacking (Very very sub-par). When I compare the quests and missions in L2 to the quests and missions in Guild Wars (another NCSOFT title) I am stunned by the lack of depth or effort that goes into 'quests' in L2. Guild Wars is free to play (no monthly fee) and L2 charges nearly $15 a month but Guild Wars' quest/mission system is far far superior to L2's.
Lineage 2 gives a free expansion (Chronicles) to the game every 6-9 months (it's been out for 3 years and has had 4 chronicles, #5 is in the works). The expansions are pretty good and pretty big but not really all that much bigger than other title's expansions. Their big bonus is they ARE free... But they're typically, as another player pointed out, geared towards the 'end game'. The lower levels of the game really haven't changed much over time.
The only really 'great' thing about L2 is the PvP warfare, which is quite good actually. The problem is that it is NOT at ALL friendly to casual players. People talk about grinds in games like EQ2, WoW, DAOC... I just laugh because anyone who complains about the grinds in those games has NEVER played Lineage 2. The upper level grind in Lineage 2 is WORSE than the worst of the hell levels in EQ1. Far Far Far worse.
I really liked the graphics in Lineage 2. They were very well done when the game came out. Even today they're still very good. (Elven animations kind of turned me off though... running around bent in half just looks silly). The gameplay killed it.
And, for a new player, pray you can find a low level killing zone that isn't being auto-farmed by 2 or 3 bots. Not too big a problem till you hit your 30's or so... then it's a HUGE problem... by the time you reach 30 the grind is really starting to kick in and with bots/autofarmers killing off half or more of the areas you want to hunt in your grind just got longer, harder and less rewarding.
L2 is a beautiful world.... has pretty good lore and a decent combat system as well as a very solid PVP system (reminds me alot of old UO actually). Problem is the entire game is tied to your level and, with such a pronounced grind, you will LONG be at the mercy of any higher level characters you run across.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Elnator describes L2 better than I could have. I have had the same opinions of it since I played. I would like to re-subscribe, but I don't have the time for that grind.
Also, I am not going to play a game that is known for player use of bots and cheaters. You'll find then in any competitive mmo, so I tend to stay away from these. I really enjoyed Guild Wars, though.
Originally posted by ladylore Because if you love the game lore, community, world, your friends, your character, your class, your skills, but ONLY hate just the harder grind that you have to do for 10 levels or so in L2, your one little nit-pick feels moot next to all of the other things you may enjoy in the game, and you consider it a worthy sacrifice to participate in the virtual world that you enjoy.
What you posted all boils down to that you enjoy the game IN SPITE OF the grinding. that's what I don't get; why not just do something else that is just fun instead of doing something that's fun despite the crap the developers threw in? Why reward them for putting something antifun into the middle of the game and trying to force you to do it? I don't regard several thousand dollars worth of my time as 'one little nitpick'; that's a rather big deal to me.
Again - because there isn't a single MMO out there that is perfect. I had Everquest in mind when I wrote what I wrote. To me, all the fun I had in EQ, all the roleplaying I did with other players while "grinding" is what made it fun. For me, and I am sure for others, it was worth it.
I hate the grind of real life (working 8-5, 5 days a week, doing the same crap over and over) but I do it because the rewards far outweight the pain of the grind. And real life has the biggest grind ever - you may have to grind for 55+ years - and yet life is still the most enjoyable massively multiplayer game of all.
The fact that you compare the gameplay of Lineage 2 directly to working a boring 8-5 job really says it all for me. I'd rather just work an 8-5 job, get paid in real money, and spend that money on a fun game, than work the equivalent of a job to be rewarded only by being 'allowed' by the developers to participate in whatever good parts of the game there are.
I agree, which is why I stopped playing Lineage 2. It felt more like a tedious job than fun. But that was only true for L2 for me, not for every game that has a big grind. Everquest had a big grind, and though the grinding was still work in a way, it was FUN work.
I would guess that, based on what you say the solution is, NOBODY should play ANY MMORPG that forces them to pay to do things in a game they don't like just so that they can get to do the things they think are fun, because I haven't heard about a single MMO on the market yet that is absolutely perfect for any one person. And if none of us were giving these devs any of our money, then none of these devs would have the funding (or motivation) they need to create a really game either.
But anyway, that is just my opinion. Too bad that you missed on the wonderful qualities of Everquest. You will never have a real clue as to what made that game popular in its time, only why you *think* you wouldn't have liked it.
Originally posted by ladylore Again - because there isn't a single MMO out there that is perfect. I had Everquest in mind when I wrote what I wrote. To me, all the fun I had in EQ, all the roleplaying I did with other players while "grinding" is what made it fun. For me, and I am sure for others, it was worth it...
I would guess that, based on what you say the solution is, NOBODY should play ANY MMORPG that forces them to pay to do things in a game they don't like just so that they can get to do the things they think are fun, because I haven't heard about a single MMO on the market yet that is absolutely perfect for any one person.
Believe it or not, there's actually some space in between a game that's "absolutely perfect" for someone and a game that requires spending thousands of dollars worth of time doing work-like stuff in order to get to the actual game part. What is it with MMOs and people losing the ability to distinguish a middle ground? No one who criticizes grinding is asking for a perfect game, just a game where you don't have to ignore the gameplay to have fun.
My standard is that no one ought to pay money for any game, MMORPG or not, that by design* requires them to as much or more time on boring/unfun/uninteresting stuff than on what they find enjoyable, that doesn't maintain that ratio in each evening-sized block of time (say 4-6 hours) including the first, that is so poor at maintaining interest that you need a second game to enjoy your time, or that actively discourages fun/interesting activity. Note that the second condition rules out any game where there is a good play at 'endgame' but you have to spend weeks or months of /played to get there if that time is not enjoyable itself.
The vast majority of non-MMO gamers would laugh at these standards as being pathetically weak, while I'm sure the crowd here thinks they're absurdly unrealistically high.
* ("By design" means that it's something the developer choses to put into the game, like grinding. It excludes things that happen naturally, like paperwork and setting up maps/miniatures in a P&P game, setting up and putting away counters in a board game, or waiting on other players in a turn-based game) **(Here I'm thinking of things like WOW's honor system for PVP, where spending even a single night just messing around with world PVP instead of grinding battlegrounds can seriously hurt your progress)
And if none of us were giving these devs any of our money, then none of these devs would have the funding (or motivation) they need to create a really game either.
As long as developers are rewarded for making games with 'content' that consists of repetitive, challengeless killing of the same mobs, they have no financial motivation to create good games, and as long as companies see that they can make money without making real content they won't fund it.
But anyway, that is just my opinion. Too bad that you missed on the wonderful qualities of Everquest. You will never have a real clue as to what made that game popular in its time, only why you *think* you wouldn't have liked it.
Well, that's completely out of the blue; we were talking about lineage2, this post has the first mention of EQ in this exchange. I *know* I wouldn't like EQ; the biggest reason is that it's the king of raid games and I despise raiding. Just like with L2, I've listened to what people who enjoy the game say about their playing experience, and I want no part of it.
Originally posted by Pantastic Originally posted by ladylore Again - because there isn't a single MMO out there that is perfect. I had Everquest in mind when I wrote what I wrote. To me, all the fun I had in EQ, all the roleplaying I did with other players while "grinding" is what made it fun. For me, and I am sure for others, it was worth it...
I would guess that, based on what you say the solution is, NOBODY should play ANY MMORPG that forces them to pay to do things in a game they don't like just so that they can get to do the things they think are fun, because I haven't heard about a single MMO on the market yet that is absolutely perfect for any one person.
Believe it or not, there's actually some space in between a game that's "absolutely perfect" for someone and a game that requires spending thousands of dollars worth of time doing work-like stuff in order to get to the actual game part. What is it with MMOs and people losing the ability to distinguish a middle ground? No one who criticizes grinding is asking for a perfect game, just a game where you don't have to ignore the gameplay to have fun.
My point exactly. You ask why people who don't like to grind play grinding games. Yet you turn around and ask the very question I'm asking of you - why can't you distinguish a middle ground? "I don't like grinding, but I like everything else, so the game is still fun for me." I don't get why that type of sentiment baffles you. And based upon your follow-up arguments, I suspect that I never will.
My standard is that no one ought to pay money for any game, MMORPG or not, that by design* requires them to as much or more time on boring/unfun/uninteresting stuff than on what they find enjoyable, that doesn't maintain that ratio in each evening-sized block of time (say 4-6 hours) including the first, that is so poor at maintaining interest that you need a second game to enjoy your time, or that actively discourages fun/interesting activity. Note that the second condition rules out any game where there is a good play at 'endgame' but you have to spend weeks or months of /played to get there if that time is not enjoyable itself. The vast majority of non-MMO gamers would laugh at these standards as being pathetically weak, while I'm sure the crowd here thinks they're absurdly unrealistically high. * ("By design" means that it's something the developer choses to put into the game, like grinding. It excludes things that happen naturally, like paperwork and setting up maps/miniatures in a P&P game, setting up and putting away counters in a board game, or waiting on other players in a turn-based game) **(Here I'm thinking of things like WOW's honor system for PVP, where spending even a single night just messing around with world PVP instead of grinding battlegrounds can seriously hurt your progress) And if none of us were giving these devs any of our money, then none of these devs would have the funding (or motivation) they need to create a really game either.
As long as developers are rewarded for making games with 'content' that consists of repetitive, challengeless killing of the same mobs, they have no financial motivation to create good games, and as long as companies see that they can make money without making real content they won't fund it. I disagree. If they have the money, and they have a community bitching and whining about what they don't like in the game (which us MMO players love to do), they have something called "customer feedback" that a good gaming company would actually take into consideration. A developer with no money, on the other hand, can't ever make anything worth playing. But anyway, that is just my opinion. Too bad that you missed on the wonderful qualities of Everquest. You will never have a real clue as to what made that game popular in its time, only why you *think* you wouldn't have liked it.
Well, that's completely out of the blue; we were talking about lineage2, this post has the first mention of EQ in this exchange. I *know* I wouldn't like EQ; the biggest reason is that it's the king of raid games and I despise raiding. Just like with L2, I've listened to what people who enjoy the game say about their playing experience, and I want no part of it.Not sure how you consider this completely out of the blue, when YOU were the one who brought up EQ in your very first post on this thread on page 1. But anyways - your argument doesn't change my thoughts on this at all - I still feel that it is too bad that you missed out on one the leading games in this genre, that second only to UO started this whole thing. You wanted no part in a pioneer game "just because" you've listened to people. Again, that is cool - I'm not saying that you are wrong, just that it is too bad. But anyways. We can agree to disagree and move on now.
Originally posted by ladylore My point exactly. You ask why people who don't like to grind play grinding games. Yet you turn around and ask the very question I'm asking of you - why can't you distinguish a middle ground? "I don't like grinding, but I like everything else, so the game is still fun for me." I don't get why that type of sentiment baffles you. And based upon your follow-up arguments, I suspect that I never will.
The trick is that in a game with a serious grind, you spend WAY more time on grinding than on the other stuff. There are whole play sessions of just grinding (or worse, half LFG half grinding). After you've played for a while, there are weeks or months of /played just for grinding. If it was something that you had to spend an hour on once every few weeks that would be one thing, but that's not the case.
But anyways - your argument doesn't change my thoughts on this at all - I still feel that it is too bad that you missed out on one the leading games in this genre, that second only to UO started this whole thing. You wanted no part in a pioneer game "just because" you've listened to people.
I have no desire to spend my time staring at the screen waiting for mana to regen, camping spawns, grinding, LFGing for grinding, raiding, and dealing with raid guild politics, and that's what EQ is all about. I looked into a bit after it came out, and was amazed that people even bothered playing the game, much less paid money for it. I don't care if it's a pioneer game or not (especially since it pioneered raiding), it's very clearly something that would not be enjoyable for me. You may as well lament that it is too bad I missed out on slamming one of the leading bricks of the brick-slamming genre into my head; at least slamming a brick into my head would only be painful for a couple of days, EQ would be painful for weeks or months until I finally stopped playing it.
Ok, after reading the entire thread I feel like responding. While I have never played Lineage 2 as soon as I get back home from vacation I am going to give it a try. I am a long time player of Final Fantasy XI and have 4 Lv75's so to say grinding is a problem for me its not.
However americans are LAZY. They want everything here and now. They don't want to invest to much time into something because in 6 months most of them are bored of even the best MMORPG's and on to something else. As a country our attention span doesn't exist. This is the reason that games like WoW are so widley popular. Within 2 weeks you can be capped and OMGUBERLEET! That is all people care about anymore, no one wants to work for anything, hence why FFXI was never widley popular with american players.
I live in Japan currently and the ONLY game that gets played at LAN Centers in Japan in Lineage II. Nothing else even comes close. A few people play RF Online or FFXI, but 95% of the people play L2.
Now if the only REAL complaint I see here from people who won't play L2 is, "The grind is to long." Just sounds a lot to me like, "I don't want to work to get to level cap." After over a year of hardcore playing of FFXI I finally reached Lv75. Of course the next three only took me roughly 2-3 months of playing to reach 75 each, but that was after i had all missions, quests, etc completed.
With the release of Treasures of Aht Urgan I contemplated going back to FFXI, but I think I'm going to give one last MMORPG a shot since everything else has failed miserably. I tried WoW(Garbage), I tried EVE(joke click button mine rocks, click button auto fire at a dot in the sky WOO!), I treid EQ2, I tried Guild Wars, but they all lack in depth and end game that FFXI could give me so much excitement(Claim Nidhogg for the first time anyone?). So before I go back to FFXI for good, Expect to see me running around Lineage 2 for the next few months giving it an honest effort. If I enjoy it(And not to say I just live to grind away for hours on end, but I play to reach end game in games not the level up. I use that time to make friends) expect to see me there indefinatley until something better comes out(And by the looks of it its going to be years!).
Ohh, us lazy Americans, wanting to have fun when we play video games instead of treating them like a job! How slothful we've become, when we expect leisure activities like video games to be enjoyable.
Yes the grinding part is stupid, but then again WOW is the same. EQ2 too. Don't tell me their quests aren't go kill 10 this, go kill 20 that. Same old boring stuff.
BUT, L2 is a PvP game. Yes I agree the game design makes new ppl hard to see the endgame part. All the fun parts are in the endgame, not someone who played 2 days or 2 weeks can see.
L2 is a love it ot hate game as you can tell from these post. It also draws alot of agro from people who really don't know anything about it fro some reason.
It has a tough grind, tough economy and the game doesn't flesh out for quite some time. It doesn't have hand holding spoon fed content and it has a healthy death penalty.
It more or less is the exact opposite of the WoW design principal.
The rewards are great though but you can't / won't find that out early on........unfortunately you need to stick to it for a bit before you "bloom" so to speak. The people who think its about "ganking" or "grinding" or don't even know that there are more then 2 classes just need to stop. Its one thing to have an opinion but its another to just not know what the heck you are talking about.
Bleh. Read half way through the thread and I think people missed a point. It's not the grind that makes the game boring. It's what's in between. I enjoyed my time in WoW, but then I realized I'm just grinding equipment to myself so I can grind for better ones. Yeah, bullshit, no doubt, but It was fun getting to the end game. I might do a few quests, go gather some material so I can craft something nice, go test that nice gun I just made on a poor soul, group up for some dungeon, have some pvp action in the battlegrounds. Anyway, the point here is that it had something else than just grinding to do... midgame that is. I wouldn't know how L2 does this, but do enlighten me, I'm interested in trying the game out if it's more than just grinding in the beginning, in the middle and especially in the end and can I have a good time doing it?
And that comes past 20-30? So is the game any fun before that or do I have to live through the crap to get into the good stuff? Then how easy would it to be find groups? I recall someone mentioning that the areas are quite deserted and I'd imagine most of the people being in the high levels since it's a pretty old release.
I was a very hardcore lineage 2 fan. I played the Kor open beta, the NA closed beta, prelude and for about a year after it was released. The grind "Back Then" was awefu and I still loved it
I resubscribed 2 weeks ago. I parked my lvl 45 BD and re-rolled. Man, did they tweak the xp and adena grind or what? getting to level 20 is a breeze.. getting to 30 is also very quick. Theyve added a crap load of content to the game, the world is HUGE!
let me just say that I am a fan of games that have a high risk vs. reward. My favorite game is Eve, and after trying both WoW and EQ2 for equal lengths of time I can honestly say my second favorite is Lineage 2.
the game is severely under rated. its extremely competitive and very interesting. Whoever said the gear in L2 was boring, I find that very VERY misinterpreted after seeing the redundant looks in WoW and the lack of artistry in EQ2.
the biggest thing I like about L2 (much like Eve) is there is no instant gratification. You will achieve more and be much more successful in a clan. You will not be able to hit max level within months and if you stick with the game you will earn respect for being a vet. To me, this is a huge plus.
another contrast is that this game is about PvP, castle seiges etc. Its not about questing and grinding mobs to try and quickly out level everyone on the server (impossible actually). In fact, there are times and strategies that require you to de-level in order to optimize your characters skill points and adena earnings.
theyve added new crafting shops for dwarves so you can go to a shop with the proper materials and adena and create goods without even having to spam channels or search crafters. just go to giran and you'll find numerous crafting shops. theyve also added fishing wich is a nice break from PvP and questing.
in a nutshell, if you like a competitive game but enjoy a very rewarding and long path to higher levels.. you'll enjoy L2. If you're a fan of CRPG artwork, animations, music and sound you will get drawn in by what L2 has to offer. If you think being competitive is jumping into a game and maxing out in 3 months for high end content.. you need to play something else. High level players in L2 have earned respect (much like vets in Eve).
cheers!
"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a robot foot stomping on a human face -- forever."
It does sound pretty damn interesting to say the least. Good that there's some work to be done to get somewhere in the game. The only thing WoW requires is the ability be able to breathe and the the open PvP sounds pretty nice... can't count the times I wanted to smack someone in an MMO, but couldn't.
I dont like L2 because Im FORCED to PVP I am at the whim of every punk kid who feels like they have something prove . No thanks. Ive tried L2 serveral times. Now if NA got the CO-OP server then Id likely play
Originally posted by Shadrak I dont like L2 because Im FORCED to PVP I am at the whim of every punk kid who feels like they have something prove . No thanks. Ive tried L2 serveral times. Now if NA got the CO-OP server then Id likely play
Weird I was never forced... There are many neutral clans you can join and people do not mess with you unless you do something to them.
If anyone has a free 14 days trial code and you are not planning on using it, i'd gladly take it because i want to try out the game first and see if i like it before subscribing. thanks send it to: thekobe8@libero.it
Comments
played it for almost 2 years now ( just reactivated my account last month again)
they cool thing about L2 is that they are adding massive new content every 6 months or so, which they call "chronicles" and at the moment they are at Chronicle 4 ( already some info on C5 on www.l2blah.com)
but the bad things on this game is that every new chronicle its more and more based on the higher lvls with new raid content and armors/weaponry.
why is this bad u think? cuz it took me nearly 2 years now to get to lvl 58 ( lvl 75 is max) as a non-hardcore gamer.
this asian based mmorpg is fun for when u play like 9 hours a nite and really like long grinds
I recently re-subbed to L2 just to see what had changed. I cancelled very soon afterwards.
To this day there really isn't anything to do but grind. The quests are still lacking (Very very sub-par). When I compare the quests and missions in L2 to the quests and missions in Guild Wars (another NCSOFT title) I am stunned by the lack of depth or effort that goes into 'quests' in L2. Guild Wars is free to play (no monthly fee) and L2 charges nearly $15 a month but Guild Wars' quest/mission system is far far superior to L2's.
Lineage 2 gives a free expansion (Chronicles) to the game every 6-9 months (it's been out for 3 years and has had 4 chronicles, #5 is in the works). The expansions are pretty good and pretty big but not really all that much bigger than other title's expansions. Their big bonus is they ARE free... But they're typically, as another player pointed out, geared towards the 'end game'. The lower levels of the game really haven't changed much over time.
The only really 'great' thing about L2 is the PvP warfare, which is quite good actually. The problem is that it is NOT at ALL friendly to casual players. People talk about grinds in games like EQ2, WoW, DAOC... I just laugh because anyone who complains about the grinds in those games has NEVER played Lineage 2. The upper level grind in Lineage 2 is WORSE than the worst of the hell levels in EQ1. Far Far Far worse.
I really liked the graphics in Lineage 2. They were very well done when the game came out. Even today they're still very good. (Elven animations kind of turned me off though... running around bent in half just looks silly). The gameplay killed it.
And, for a new player, pray you can find a low level killing zone that isn't being auto-farmed by 2 or 3 bots. Not too big a problem till you hit your 30's or so... then it's a HUGE problem... by the time you reach 30 the grind is really starting to kick in and with bots/autofarmers killing off half or more of the areas you want to hunt in your grind just got longer, harder and less rewarding.
L2 is a beautiful world.... has pretty good lore and a decent combat system as well as a very solid PVP system (reminds me alot of old UO actually). Problem is the entire game is tied to your level and, with such a pronounced grind, you will LONG be at the mercy of any higher level characters you run across.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Elnator describes L2 better than I could have. I have had the same opinions of it since I played. I would like to re-subscribe, but I don't have the time for that grind.
Also, I am not going to play a game that is known for player use of bots and cheaters. You'll find then in any competitive mmo, so I tend to stay away from these. I really enjoyed Guild Wars, though.
http://www.e-serveurs.com/l2/Valakas_Finale.avi
I dare anyone to find something like that.
What you posted all boils down to that you enjoy the game IN SPITE OF the grinding. that's what I don't get; why not just do something else that is just fun instead of doing something that's fun despite the crap the developers threw in? Why reward them for putting something antifun into the middle of the game and trying to force you to do it? I don't regard several thousand dollars worth of my time as 'one little nitpick'; that's a rather big deal to me.
Again - because there isn't a single MMO out there that is perfect. I had Everquest in mind when I wrote what I wrote. To me, all the fun I had in EQ, all the roleplaying I did with other players while "grinding" is what made it fun. For me, and I am sure for others, it was worth it.
The fact that you compare the gameplay of Lineage 2 directly to working a boring 8-5 job really says it all for me. I'd rather just work an 8-5 job, get paid in real money, and spend that money on a fun game, than work the equivalent of a job to be rewarded only by being 'allowed' by the developers to participate in whatever good parts of the game there are.
I agree, which is why I stopped playing Lineage 2. It felt more like a tedious job than fun. But that was only true for L2 for me, not for every game that has a big grind. Everquest had a big grind, and though the grinding was still work in a way, it was FUN work.
I would guess that, based on what you say the solution is, NOBODY should play ANY MMORPG that forces them to pay to do things in a game they don't like just so that they can get to do the things they think are fun, because I haven't heard about a single MMO on the market yet that is absolutely perfect for any one person. And if none of us were giving these devs any of our money, then none of these devs would have the funding (or motivation) they need to create a really game either.
But anyway, that is just my opinion. Too bad that you missed on the wonderful qualities of Everquest. You will never have a real clue as to what made that game popular in its time, only why you *think* you wouldn't have liked it.
Believe it or not, there's actually some space in between a game that's "absolutely perfect" for someone and a game that requires spending thousands of dollars worth of time doing work-like stuff in order to get to the actual game part. What is it with MMOs and people losing the ability to distinguish a middle ground? No one who criticizes grinding is asking for a perfect game, just a game where you don't have to ignore the gameplay to have fun.
My standard is that no one ought to pay money for any game, MMORPG or not, that by design* requires them to as much or more time on boring/unfun/uninteresting stuff than on what they find enjoyable, that doesn't maintain that ratio in each evening-sized block of time (say 4-6 hours) including the first, that is so poor at maintaining interest that you need a second game to enjoy your time, or that actively discourages fun/interesting activity. Note that the second condition rules out any game where there is a good play at 'endgame' but you have to spend weeks or months of /played to get there if that time is not enjoyable itself.
The vast majority of non-MMO gamers would laugh at these standards as being pathetically weak, while I'm sure the crowd here thinks they're absurdly unrealistically high.
* ("By design" means that it's something the developer choses to put into the game, like grinding. It excludes things that happen naturally, like paperwork and setting up maps/miniatures in a P&P game, setting up and putting away counters in a board game, or waiting on other players in a turn-based game)
**(Here I'm thinking of things like WOW's honor system for PVP, where spending even a single night just messing around with world PVP instead of grinding battlegrounds can seriously hurt your progress)
As long as developers are rewarded for making games with 'content' that consists of repetitive, challengeless killing of the same mobs, they have no financial motivation to create good games, and as long as companies see that they can make money without making real content they won't fund it.
Well, that's completely out of the blue; we were talking about lineage2, this post has the first mention of EQ in this exchange. I *know* I wouldn't like EQ; the biggest reason is that it's the king of raid games and I despise raiding. Just like with L2, I've listened to what people who enjoy the game say about their playing experience, and I want no part of it.
Believe it or not, there's actually some space in between a game that's "absolutely perfect" for someone and a game that requires spending thousands of dollars worth of time doing work-like stuff in order to get to the actual game part. What is it with MMOs and people losing the ability to distinguish a middle ground? No one who criticizes grinding is asking for a perfect game, just a game where you don't have to ignore the gameplay to have fun.
My point exactly. You ask why people who don't like to grind play grinding games. Yet you turn around and ask the very question I'm asking of you - why can't you distinguish a middle ground? "I don't like grinding, but I like everything else, so the game is still fun for me." I don't get why that type of sentiment baffles you. And based upon your follow-up arguments, I suspect that I never will.
My standard is that no one ought to pay money for any game, MMORPG or not, that by design* requires them to as much or more time on boring/unfun/uninteresting stuff than on what they find enjoyable, that doesn't maintain that ratio in each evening-sized block of time (say 4-6 hours) including the first, that is so poor at maintaining interest that you need a second game to enjoy your time, or that actively discourages fun/interesting activity. Note that the second condition rules out any game where there is a good play at 'endgame' but you have to spend weeks or months of /played to get there if that time is not enjoyable itself.
The vast majority of non-MMO gamers would laugh at these standards as being pathetically weak, while I'm sure the crowd here thinks they're absurdly unrealistically high.
* ("By design" means that it's something the developer choses to put into the game, like grinding. It excludes things that happen naturally, like paperwork and setting up maps/miniatures in a P&P game, setting up and putting away counters in a board game, or waiting on other players in a turn-based game)
**(Here I'm thinking of things like WOW's honor system for PVP, where spending even a single night just messing around with world PVP instead of grinding battlegrounds can seriously hurt your progress)
And if none of us were giving these devs any of our money, then none of these devs would have the funding (or motivation) they need to create a really game either.
As long as developers are rewarded for making games with 'content' that consists of repetitive, challengeless killing of the same mobs, they have no financial motivation to create good games, and as long as companies see that they can make money without making real content they won't fund it.
I disagree. If they have the money, and they have a community bitching and whining about what they don't like in the game (which us MMO players love to do), they have something called "customer feedback" that a good gaming company would actually take into consideration. A developer with no money, on the other hand, can't ever make anything worth playing.
But anyway, that is just my opinion. Too bad that you missed on the wonderful qualities of Everquest. You will never have a real clue as to what made that game popular in its time, only why you *think* you wouldn't have liked it.
Well, that's completely out of the blue; we were talking about lineage2, this post has the first mention of EQ in this exchange. I *know* I wouldn't like EQ; the biggest reason is that it's the king of raid games and I despise raiding. Just like with L2, I've listened to what people who enjoy the game say about their playing experience, and I want no part of it.Not sure how you consider this completely out of the blue, when YOU were the one who brought up EQ in your very first post on this thread on page 1. But anyways - your argument doesn't change my thoughts on this at all - I still feel that it is too bad that you missed out on one the leading games in this genre, that second only to UO started this whole thing. You wanted no part in a pioneer game "just because" you've listened to people. Again, that is cool - I'm not saying that you are wrong, just that it is too bad. But anyways. We can agree to disagree and move on now.
The trick is that in a game with a serious grind, you spend WAY more time on grinding than on the other stuff. There are whole play sessions of just grinding (or worse, half LFG half grinding). After you've played for a while, there are weeks or months of /played just for grinding. If it was something that you had to spend an hour on once every few weeks that would be one thing, but that's not the case.
I have no desire to spend my time staring at the screen waiting for mana to regen, camping spawns, grinding, LFGing for grinding, raiding, and dealing with raid guild politics, and that's what EQ is all about. I looked into a bit after it came out, and was amazed that people even bothered playing the game, much less paid money for it. I don't care if it's a pioneer game or not (especially since it pioneered raiding), it's very clearly something that would not be enjoyable for me. You may as well lament that it is too bad I missed out on slamming one of the leading bricks of the brick-slamming genre into my head; at least slamming a brick into my head would only be painful for a couple of days, EQ would be painful for weeks or months until I finally stopped playing it.
Ok, after reading the entire thread I feel like responding. While I have never played Lineage 2 as soon as I get back home from vacation I am going to give it a try. I am a long time player of Final Fantasy XI and have 4 Lv75's so to say grinding is a problem for me its not.
However americans are LAZY. They want everything here and now. They don't want to invest to much time into something because in 6 months most of them are bored of even the best MMORPG's and on to something else. As a country our attention span doesn't exist. This is the reason that games like WoW are so widley popular. Within 2 weeks you can be capped and OMGUBERLEET! That is all people care about anymore, no one wants to work for anything, hence why FFXI was never widley popular with american players.
I live in Japan currently and the ONLY game that gets played at LAN Centers in Japan in Lineage II. Nothing else even comes close. A few people play RF Online or FFXI, but 95% of the people play L2.
Now if the only REAL complaint I see here from people who won't play L2 is, "The grind is to long." Just sounds a lot to me like, "I don't want to work to get to level cap." After over a year of hardcore playing of FFXI I finally reached Lv75. Of course the next three only took me roughly 2-3 months of playing to reach 75 each, but that was after i had all missions, quests, etc completed.
With the release of Treasures of Aht Urgan I contemplated going back to FFXI, but I think I'm going to give one last MMORPG a shot since everything else has failed miserably. I tried WoW(Garbage), I tried EVE(joke click button mine rocks, click button auto fire at a dot in the sky WOO!), I treid EQ2, I tried Guild Wars, but they all lack in depth and end game that FFXI could give me so much excitement(Claim Nidhogg for the first time anyone?). So before I go back to FFXI for good, Expect to see me running around Lineage 2 for the next few months giving it an honest effort. If I enjoy it(And not to say I just live to grind away for hours on end, but I play to reach end game in games not the level up. I use that time to make friends) expect to see me there indefinatley until something better comes out(And by the looks of it its going to be years!).
Ohh, us lazy Americans, wanting to have fun when we play video games instead of treating them like a job! How slothful we've become, when we expect leisure activities like video games to be enjoyable.
To the ppl such as zaxtor99,
You obiviously don't know what L2 is about.
Yes the grinding part is stupid, but then again WOW is the same. EQ2 too. Don't tell me their quests aren't go kill 10 this, go kill 20 that. Same old boring stuff.
BUT, L2 is a PvP game. Yes I agree the game design makes new ppl hard to see the endgame part. All the fun parts are in the endgame, not someone who played 2 days or 2 weeks can see.
I will save some words, let the video show you
here download this Castle Siege video
http://files.filefront.com/i_think_this_is_dion_lol_jkwmv/;5011071;;/fileinfo.html
and some screenshots include endgame raid
http://mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/75080
Tell me again, Mr. zaxtor99. Is L2 still what you think it is?
One thing is for sure
L2 is a love it ot hate game as you can tell from these post. It also draws alot of agro from people who really don't know anything about it fro some reason.
It has a tough grind, tough economy and the game doesn't flesh out for quite some time. It doesn't have hand holding spoon fed content and it has a healthy death penalty.
It more or less is the exact opposite of the WoW design principal.
The rewards are great though but you can't / won't find that out early on........unfortunately you need to stick to it for a bit before you "bloom" so to speak. The people who think its about "ganking" or "grinding" or don't even know that there are more then 2 classes just need to stop. Its one thing to have an opinion but its another to just not know what the heck you are talking about.
Bleh. Read half way through the thread and I think people missed a point. It's not the grind that makes the game boring. It's what's in between. I enjoyed my time in WoW, but then I realized I'm just grinding equipment to myself so I can grind for better ones. Yeah, bullshit, no doubt, but It was fun getting to the end game. I might do a few quests, go gather some material so I can craft something nice, go test that nice gun I just made on a poor soul, group up for some dungeon, have some pvp action in the battlegrounds. Anyway, the point here is that it had something else than just grinding to do... midgame that is. I wouldn't know how L2 does this, but do enlighten me, I'm interested in trying the game out if it's more than just grinding in the beginning, in the middle and especially in the end and can I have a good time doing it?
There is a lot in between grinding: PvP, Castle seiges, Seven Signs, events, pets, economy, fishing, crafting, etc.
Once you get to like 20, you will start seeing more people to group with.
The lowest level raid boss is 20 so you can start raiding at like 20.
The starter towns are deserted but once you get to like 15-20, come to Gludin and then there are some people there.
~Greatness~
Currently Playing:
Nothing
I was a very hardcore lineage 2 fan. I played the Kor open beta, the NA closed beta, prelude and for about a year after it was released. The grind "Back Then" was awefu and I still loved it
I resubscribed 2 weeks ago. I parked my lvl 45 BD and re-rolled. Man, did they tweak the xp and adena grind or what? getting to level 20 is a breeze.. getting to 30 is also very quick. Theyve added a crap load of content to the game, the world is HUGE!
let me just say that I am a fan of games that have a high risk vs. reward. My favorite game is Eve, and after trying both WoW and EQ2 for equal lengths of time I can honestly say my second favorite is Lineage 2.
the game is severely under rated. its extremely competitive and very interesting. Whoever said the gear in L2 was boring, I find that very VERY misinterpreted after seeing the redundant looks in WoW and the lack of artistry in EQ2.
the biggest thing I like about L2 (much like Eve) is there is no instant gratification. You will achieve more and be much more successful in a clan. You will not be able to hit max level within months and if you stick with the game you will earn respect for being a vet. To me, this is a huge plus.
another contrast is that this game is about PvP, castle seiges etc. Its not about questing and grinding mobs to try and quickly out level everyone on the server (impossible actually). In fact, there are times and strategies that require you to de-level in order to optimize your characters skill points and adena earnings.
theyve added new crafting shops for dwarves so you can go to a shop with the proper materials and adena and create goods without even having to spam channels or search crafters. just go to giran and you'll find numerous crafting shops. theyve also added fishing wich is a nice break from PvP and questing.
in a nutshell, if you like a competitive game but enjoy a very rewarding and long path to higher levels.. you'll enjoy L2. If you're a fan of CRPG artwork, animations, music and sound you will get drawn in by what L2 has to offer. If you think being competitive is jumping into a game and maxing out in 3 months for high end content.. you need to play something else. High level players in L2 have earned respect (much like vets in Eve).
cheers!
"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a robot foot stomping on a human face -- forever."
~Greatness~
Currently Playing:
Nothing