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Proposed letter to NCSoft concerns farmer/botting/ebaying problem
To: NCSoft NA
A forward to the Lineage players:
Whether or not you feel you are affected by bots, you are. Botting and
third party programs are detrimental to the Lineage community. Raid
boss farmers and botters affect hunting locations, the in-game economy,
and overall game content. The problem is so bad that on a daily basis
honest people are leaving the game because they have had enough and do
not know what to do about it.
What is there to do about this major problem though? NCSoft wants us to
deal with this issue in game; they picture a virtual world where the
inhabitants are able to solve in-game problems on their own. This is
all good on paper but utterly falls apart when looked at realistically.
The fact of the matter is these bots are able to go about their farming
24 hours a day with the aid of either autonomous software or simply a
few people that plays the toon in shifts. Killing these botters and
farmers does nothing, as the experience grind and time loss from not
hunting tends to not impact their ability to continue farming for
profit. Report these farmers/botters? Everyone knows at this point this
accomplishes nothing. When a farmer/botter is reported consistently for
a month, and 6 months down the road that same farmer group is in the
same spot farming it shows that NCSoft obviously does not care about
their legitimate customers nor have the ability to enforce their own
rules. If NCSoft can not maintain control of their own game environment
which they have ultimate power over, how do they expect their customers
to do so and have fun playing the game they love in the process?
The raid boss farmers especially kill the enjoyment of this game and
ruin one of the major selling points the game has to offer. Raid bosses
give clans and alliances an opportunity to get together and defeat
something as a collective while having fun. It also enables these same
clans and alliances to outfit their loyal and hardworking members in
effective gear to handle the other challenges this game has to offer
such as the XP grind, PVP, and castle sieges. This aspect of the game
is all but gone now, especially on the Bartz server, where the
opportunities to raid are now few and far apart. These opportunities
are non-existent because raid boss farmers have the schedule down to
the letter of when each raid boss spawns. Even the most organized clans
on the server have a hard time competing because we are not able to
stay up 24hrs a day 7 days a week to camp raid boss spawns. The game
for these raid boss farmers is their job! They can work on 8 hour shift
rotations and only do raid bosses because they profit from it through
real life currency, which as its written all over your companies EULA,
is against the rules.
All these issues are well known though so there is almost no point in
continuing. This letter is just to inform the people at NCSoft that
there are people who care enough about this issue to take things a bit
further. We have tried to PK the bots off to no avail, we have tried to
report them repeatedly to no avail, we have tried to outrun them to
raid bosses to no avail. It is time for you NCSoft to step up and do
the professional thing and deal with this situation. Do what everyone
knows you are capable of doing. Yes, I might be difficult to catch
every farmer/bot group running around but when know groups are
continually farming raid bosses and are around 6 months later after
being continually petitioned, it shows a serious lack of dedication to
solving the problem on your part.
As
a player base we have done a lot to solve the problem but most have us
have now come to the realization that this is out of our hands. Some
people are going so far as to try and organize a full month’s worth
boycott of L2 to show just how drastic this issue is. Its time NCSoft
as a company, begins following time tested best business practices and
look out for their true and loyal customers.
Mgz
Lineage II player
Bartz server
Comments
Nice,
It would be cool if there where no "Bots".
What does ALWAYS surprise me is the amount of players who don't like it / boo hoo the fact BUT do not report the bots!!!!!
IF you think you see a bot, REPORT IT. (then train it or thatever you plan on doing to it) NCSoft can't do anything if no one reports them. It doesn't matter what happens from there, the actual ticket is in and can be statisically counted.
Sometimes you report a farmer(same group) for a whole week.
But after that i think most start loosing motivation because obiously nc doesn't care.
I just train them and pick up the loot. But more and more start to log out lately also...
Right on, I just came back to L2 last week, finally made it from Talking head to Gludio and I saw a number of bots attacking the city guards. Here's the kicker, they all had the same name with a different number on the end.
and god bless em too, one spot I was hunting there were 2 bots, doing their thing, guess they f-ed up their macro and didn't loot anything, so on my lunch break I made an easy 20k, not including item drops.
Current Games:
More and more players are leaving the game every day. It is a shame, but the Lineage II game has become unbearable to play. NCSoft has repeatedly ignored the plea of its L2 players to do something about the bot infestation that has taken over the game. On the most popular and populated servers, bots and farmers have not only overtaken hunting grounds, but now have reached the point of camping raid bosses and main bosses.
NCSoft has ruined this aspect of the game for its players. Players needing to assist in killing a raid boss for a high level class change quest are now being prevented from doing so because of farmer groups up at a moments notice of the spawn to kill it.
Many of the players of Lineage II have now joined forces to contact various media venues in hopes to get the message out that the legit players and not happy and want something done. Contacting NCSoft has proven time and time again to be useless. We are now hoping that pressure from the gaming community will make NCSoft realize that they need to do something about this. Posting any sort of message such as this on their official Lineage II boards will only get you banned.
I suggest that no one start this game until its makers decide that its real players are more important than its farmers.
http://www.l2guru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33758
Ok look,
You want to start a moral crusade over something feed all the starving people in Africa or get our lovely Mr. Bush to bring our troops home or something. Getting a video game company to stop people from selling garbage in a video game is not that noble of a pursuit.
BeeBopp, what you are asking for needs to be done in all MMO's not just L2. It stems primarily from poor game design. MMO's are level/loot/grind based. That applies to almost all of them. I would love to see a real MMORPG release but its not going to happen for some time if ever. As long as any game can be "farmed" and knuckheads are willing to buy the currency so they can get better loot, you will always see farmers. Singling L2 out and telling people not to play it for a problem that exsist in all MMO's and some far worse then L2 doesn't address the issue.
There are people who run bots, they run them in every MMO that people are moronic enough to buy the currency in. I hate them to. Shut the game off if you don't like it and it bothers you that much. Lost money is the only thing that gets a corporations attention anyway.
I don't blame the farmers and game company as much as I blame the people who buy it. The people who purchase ingame currency and items are the primary driver of farmers. Its that simple. If no one bought the crap no one would farm it. Its the PLAYERS fault there are so many bots not NCSofts. The players are the ones buying it.
You should send a letter to all the players of L2, maybe if they stopped purchasing in game currency the farmers would stop farming.
In the meantime, keep reporting bots. Train the bots, give them hell. Most of all NEVER buy currency from them.
EDIT
Not to push the topic further but look at this link, the people who make these games don't even see or care about the problem. Here is what the esteamed Mr Garrott (just about the founder of MMO's and President of NCSoft NA) has to say...
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/42/8
nice post but u should put it in the general discussion section as many more people read that part
Torak, I agree 100% with you, but here is the difference between "farming bots" and the "Raid farmers" that we have on our Lineage server: "Farming bots" make it inconvienent for players because they take over hunting grounds, farm in-game currency, and sell to players. "Raid farmers" camp the major raid bosses of the game, and usually within 2 minutes of the boss spawning have amassed 3-4 groups to take out the boss and its drops. Hardly any clans or alliances on the server can take advantage of this huge piece of the game.
Not only that, but in order to become a hero class (lvl 75 on main class, 75 on subclass) you need to be in a party of players that does the most damage to a specific high level raid boss. Farmers have this boss camped and therefore make it almost impossible for players to complete their hero quest. Becoming a hero is not just a small part of the game-- its very monumental -- and players reaching this point are being prevented from following through because of the farmer raids that are always ready at a moments notice.
On top of that, people run bot trains hunting a spot for hours on end --and yet friends of mine that are 100% legit and have always been, got their accounts perma banned for using "suspected third party software" when they were 2-boxing a buffer.
NCSoft is awful.
Torak, I always reported bots. I think that NCSoft have some trigger whereby some reports are taken more seriously than others. Although in my case I saw most of the bots I reported disappear, I know that wasnt the case for members of my guild who werent as vocal on the official forums. Eventually I myself got sick of submitting numerous violation reports and gave up, leaving the game in the process.
The game is great which is why I allow you to get away with your "every MMO has bots" comments. I dont play other MMOs, so frankly I dont immediately care what is happening in WoW except how it effects MMO's as a whole. L2 is the only MMO I have played - and incomparable to WoW which I believe has instanced dungeons to a degree - and the only barometer I have of what is good and bad when it comes to 3rd party program violations. And boy is it bad.
There is hope though. See Enzymes Post
Hehehe, I couldn't resist...........you allow me
Bots and farmers are in all games, they have been in all games since the lazy players demanded their services. They are not exclusive to L2. There have been gold farmers in games like EQ and AC since before L2 was even a sparkle in a Devs eye.
What irritates me and what I dont like to "allow" (hehehe) is outsiders bashing L2 for having bots/farmers when they damn well know whatever game they are playing has them to. You notice when I say that "all" MMOs have them or point out a specific example (because I have played most MMO's) I get very little if any resistance because everyone knows its true. I can tour you through the "hot spots" in alot games. WoWs farmers are NOT only in the instances, they infest common areas just like L2.
What stinks in L2's case is the boldness of the bot owners and NC's sluggish responce to reports. It gives the appearance that bots/farmers are tolerated. Blizzard is no better nor is SOE.
I understand you don't care about other games aside from L2 but as long as people can exploit ANY game they will always be around. It is an industry problem not an L2 problem. If you played another game you would know that and you would not "allow" outsiders to make ignorant comments and troll attacks on our game.
What can you do? Keep up the fight, and report them is all you really can do. Farm them if you get the chance. never ever buy gold.
That one is the key. Nothing will hurt farmers / botters more then not buying their gold. They don't care about petitions and protest, they have no stake in the administration of the game all they care about is the players buying their gold. It is totally in the communities hands. Stop buying the gold and the farmers will go away. Buy the gold and they will come. (sorta like 1+1=2)
NC could try assorted methods to stop them sure, but if the idiots keep demanding and buying gold what good is their effort? Farmers WILL find a way if there is a demand no matter what a company does.
EDIT
Reporting in from SOE...EQII quite possibly the blandest MMO on the market and guess what? SWG is the most confused. They just did ANOTHER combat revamp yesterday. Thats 4 versions of the game in 3 years. I quit..........I totally give up on SOE. Back to L2 I go. I abandon my RL friends and my wife to the bland uninspired / confused hell of SOE.
I guess it depends what you mean by "more prominent". While its true that proportionatly speaking, L2 may have a higher player to farmer ratio in NA then some other games, it takes many many more farmers to fuel the WoW machine. Unlike what some other guy said that there are more farmers in L2 then players. (hehehe, if that was the case, who would buy all the gold? all the other farmers? Please, anyone that has even attended a basic economics class could see that.)
Have you ever played WoW and seen them in action? Its amazing. There are literally dozens of them working together at any one time in some of the more popular spots. L2 has nothing on them.
I guess my point is this. I don't like to hear the non-players of L2 critize the game for something all of them have. its something that is somewhat out of the hands of the game company. it is something that the community brings and promotes. The farmers just fuel the demand. Hell, you can even still buy credits for that p.o.s. SWG on I*E.
EDIT (man, I just can't leave the dead horse alone)
I have been watching some gold prices on I*E for a few different games. it actually looks like they have a complexe system going on. Its not just a "cut the farmers loose and sell as much as possible" operation. The prices do fluctuate. At different times gold rises and lowers on different servers for different games. It would be just as bad for the farmers if the market was flooded with currency. It would cause run away inflation and the price of the farmed gold would drop causing them to have to farm more and longer for a deminishing return. No, this is a very controlled business and these guys are as sharp as investors.
L2 is the only mmo you have played yet you talk like you know something about them. I smell fan boi.
Most games have bots. Most companies either do something about it or try. NcSoft tells you they do their best yet nothing is ever seen except the 15$ you pay every month. Go back to the offical board Kari your trolls are more needed there.
Something you will never see on the Lineage2 forums
World of Warcraft Accounts Closed - 6/9/06
We will continue to aggressively monitor all World of Warcraft realms in order to protect the service and its players from the harmful effects of cheating. Please note that selling World of Warcraft content, such as gold, items, and characters, can result in a permanent ban of the involved accounts from World of Warcraft.
Many account closures come as the direct result of tips reported to our GMs in game or emailed to our Hacks Team by legitimate World of Warcraft players. If you suspect that a World of Warcraft player is using an illegal third-party program to farm gold or items, or is otherwise violating our Terms of Use, please report the suspected infraction via one of the means listed above. All reports will be investigated, and those that prove false will not result in corrective action.
Thank you for your continued support, and good luck with your adventures in Azeroth!
Waiting on Guild Wars 2
Something you will never see on the Lineage2 forums
World of Warcraft Accounts Closed - 6/9/06
I thought L2 had a mass banning not to long ago? (within the past 6 months if I remember correctly)
LoL 30,000 banning in WoW is a drop in the bucket. They will be back within about 15 minutes of the account being closed. They are making to much money off of that game not to.
That may be the case for the game company but its the players who are buying therefore creating the demand. If the devs do put something in place how long do you honestly think it will keep the farmers at bay? A few days maybe a week or two?
Nope, as long as the players demand the gold, the farmers will find a way. A technical block, at best, would maybe drive the prices up. As long as a someone who wants to farm can log into the game and there is a player willing to give him money for game cash, there is a way to do it.
Look at games like WoW. Easiest economy on the market. You have to be about braindead not to make money. The game has the largest gold market of all the MMO's. Don't take my word, go check it out yourself.
1.) L2 isn't the only MMO with bots and farmers, any large MMO has them.
2.) It is partially the players problem that farmers and bots exist due to buying currency, but it is also NCsofts problem for designing a game that take COUNTLESS hours of grind to reach high level. 100+ hours to make lvl 75-74, that is just rediculas. To make drop rates so rare and material to craft so mountainous, spawn farmers. Even if they weren't selling in game currency normal players would use bots to level and farm there own mats. It goes as far as saying that a player can't even reach a higher mid grade weapon in this game without grinding, over and over, and making the grind even longer by not using shots, potions, ect., with a substandard weapon. With bots gone well...then I guess it would even the playing field of players because no one could use the advantages of the 3rd party.
3.) It is practically too late to try to fix the game. Many people won't play this game if they have to grind out one level after another wasting hours and hours of time. If they took out the bots one year ago, well then it may have been so.
4.) Farmers and bots pulled out now would create more than half the current player populations to quit, and only a very few would even think about comming back. Unless NCsoft decides to push a huge markeeting campaign stating to have a bot free MMO!
5.) My suggestion if you want a Lineage game without bots...wait for Lineage III and hope that they learn from this horrid mistake of L2.
I have been playing L2 since October of 2004 - present. I have loved it! I have wasted countless hours of my life pouring it into this game's grind, drama, forums, research, ect. ect. Now I look back and consider it a waste! All that time that I could have done something meaningful was now thrown out because of a game... and the overall nature of all MMOs to try to make you play hours and hours upon end while feeding them more and more money.
The game had great graphics, and nice music. The lore was great but never really implemented into the game itself. The insane amounts of time that a player has to dedicate to the game in order to be powerful and reach end game, along with the poor design of the economy were the first downfalls of the game...the rest just fed off of these poor implementations. The reason for Ebay was unhappy players that couldn't afford gear...and hunting equipment.
BTW, I am against all 3rd party usage in MMOs...but L2 just needs to become less of a 'job' for legit players.
I read it Jukan,
I logged into L2 for the first time yesterday in over a month. I made this awsome Orc but when I got to my starter town there where about 10 bots deleveling. Call me naive but is there that much currency trading going on? (I also don't understand the point of deleveling although its been explained to me, my brain just cant rap itself around the idea of loosing levels on purpose
)
All I could think was "what a g*d damn shame" There was a new guy there and he asked me what they where doing, I just told him they where bots, they suck and try not to let them ruin his expereince. You know what he said at the end of our conversation? he like this game best of the ones he tried and he was off to kill mobs.
It is to bad, it does suck but like you said, it is to late to fix it. Any corrections would have had to be made closer to release otherwise you would end up like those idiots at SWG. A broken, revamped mess 3 years into the games life. I guess we live with them until something better comes along. I've played every major game out there and L2 truely does have something most of the other ones don't. Style, thrill, challenge. (maybe a bit to much "challenge")
Now I look back and consider it a waste! All that time that I could have done something meaningful was now thrown out because of a game... and the overall nature of all MMOs to try to make you play hours and hours upon end while feeding them more and more money.
You should maybe try to keep other things on a higher priority. I accespted a long time ago (like when I started L2) that I would never make level cap. It doesn't matter anyway. Its a fun, awsome game at amy level. I have 3 kids and a career. I level at a snails pace. I only play late in the evening. This is the nature of not just MMO's but any media. Watching TV or movies can eat up just as much time. Level cap doesn't mean anything anyway. I level capped in DAoC (back in the old days when DAoC was a grinding hell), WoW x3, GW, the old SWG, yay, all it means is you finish the mathmatic grind nothing about your play changes. In fact, generally speaking most people lose interest once they hit cap because they have met the goal they set. Go out and have a BBQ if you feel like you are doing to much time lol. (invite a few friends over, drink some beer, shoot the poop, cook some brats, life is good) Like anything in life, balance in key. When all is said and done, its only a game and doesn't matter.
(I've gotten my butt chewed for saying "its only a game". People from the old SWG went ballistic one day while we where playing. I got the "its more then a game lecture". Then Sony changed their "game". All that dedication and commitment to a game wasted by people. They could have been doing more productive things then "living" in their pretend SWG world. Now in an off hand uncaring move the parent company took it away from them. SWG should serve as a constant reminder that these are JUST GAMES, play them, have fun, keep it in perspective)
So enjoy L2 while you can, one thing is for sure, things will cahnge, better games will come along....they always do. I remember playing Asheron's Call and thinking "this is great" and it was the best thing ever. Then DAoC released.....then _____ game released then _____game released and on and on.
I don't consider my time a waste. I've had great moments in L2 that were just a blast and I've met incredible people. A few of them I've had beers with. I don't think any game can really bond you with people like how L2 does because of the way it's setup.
For me, the only game that is "more than a game" is EVE, because I have so many good friends I've met there, and the relationships have continued outside the "game", so it's not just all about the game, and it hasn't been for some time. But when the servers close or I decide to leave, whichever comes first, I will look back on my time there fondly as I have for every other game ... if it was fun, if it was entertaining, and if I was engaged with fun people, it wasn't a waste of time at all.
Grats on 75.
The point about resources though is a flawed one, and Bighands explains it much better than I but bear with me. If the pro-farmers were removed from the game thus taking out 90% of the current farmed resources then the drop tables would be adjusted accordingly to bring that 90% back. That would mean that instead of 90% of the resources being farmed by 20% of the population (the pro's) you would now have the same amount of resources farmed by 100% of the population (the players). Make sense?
I do agree with you, Torak and others. If youre having fun in a game it isnt a waste, thats damn good value for money. Its partly due to the time=money mentality that we have such problems in our current games. But unlike (aargh, forgot the name. will edit) I dont agree the long grind is at the root of the RMT epidemic in L2, I believe it is the high risk and competitive nature that is the cause.
Meh, I hit 75 a while ago. I'm working on 78 now. Anyways, the grind isn't horrible. I did it at my own pace and I eventually got to the end game b/c I played long enough. T be honest, I didn't ned to be 75 to be competitive in pvp either.
You know I went back and forth with the "why's" of the L2 bot/farmer issue. I really gotta ask myself "why do I care?" I am able to make money. its tough and a pain in the arse. But its suppose to be. Its not designed to be easy. (nothing in this damn game is easy
you cant even fish without spending a small fortune
)
You can ignore bots in L2.
it was actually tougher to ignore them in World of Warcraft. The farmers are actually run by operators as there are no bots (or very very few). These guys are arseholes. They flood your chat with gibberish, ask for food/water, (if you have the create spell) run agro mobs though you while you are fighting hoping you might accidentally attack it...they worked in groups and just completely flooded your chat. On top of it, the ingame mail system was full "buy gold from...., spam. Its a farmer infested mess of a game.
At least in L2 they leave me the heck alone
Does that make it right? no, Im not supporting bots but really its our own fault. Even if NC could somehow get them out, you think that will keep them away for a minute? No, they will just run the toons live insted of automated. If the company is making money off of them they will come. its that simple. Its supply and demand.
Increasing drop rates will just mess up the economy even more because there is no guarentee you will root out the farmers.
The baseline of our economy (in L2) is the shop bought equipment. On our server we are not as far out of line then I would expect. I see at the B and A grades there is a serious jump in prices.....but thats the price you pay for advancing so far in this game. There are no hand outs in L2 and the B grade + tiers are totally in the hands of the player crafters. That sort of thing will happen in any player driven economy. Players are ruthless bastages lol.
L2 is designed to be highly social. At higher tiers you will need to pool resourse with your guild to get everyone up to speed. You know as well as I do that anti - social Lonewolves fail miserably at L2 and rarely make it to level 20 or 30 before leaving. that is the nature of our game world.
EQII just the other day (my wife is still playing) changed their entire crafting system (please for the love of god never, ever play any SOE game, they change everything every few months)
They changed the drop rates of resourse (upped it) and massively simplified crafting. Guess whats happening? The economy is crashing. Crafting is now to easy. (My wife did like 4 levels in a few hours) The auction house system is now flooded with items and crafting resourses. Everyone and their brother is now crafting because its so easy.
Economies (real or simulated) are very delicate. You cant just add and takeway without a very large impact.
"Increasing drop rates will just mess up the economy even more because there is no guarentee you will root out the farmers."
Just incase that was in direct reply to me (you did quote me after all) I wasnt suggesting an increase in the total amount of resources coming into the world. Let me try and simplify it using imaginary numbers....Im useless at this stuff.
Imagine we have 10,000 pieces of coal being farmed on a server with a pop. of 500. On paper that number has been proven to keep the supply vs demand just where the dev's want it for maximum stability. However 9000 pieces of this coal is farmed by only 100 pc's who dont use the resource themselves but because they farm in bulk can control the pricing. The other 1000 pieces goes directly into the inventory's of 400 player characters.
Now take out the pro's and suddenly only 1000 pieces per day are being farmed, yes the economy would collapse. But take out the pro's and add back the 9000 by way of increased drop table and you wont have a problem. You will still have your 10000 coal a day, you will still have the same amount of consumers ie 400 characters as the pro's dont use the resources personally, but you wont have the incredible fluctuations in the economy as we have today. The economy would be relatively stable.
But yes, I understand its a pipe dream.
*Raises an eyebrow* About the annoying "gibberish". Back before bots were sophisticated and pro-farmer characters were played by live players there were far fewer complaints as they made for some great PvP encounters. They were our competition, a common enemy. I also think the bot problem sometimes overrides the fact that gold selling companies have owned our castles in the past (probably still do, but Im not playing to be sure) with characters that are not botted (at least not overtly) and that gives them a huge pool of resellable gold not to mention control over pricing of SA crystals, Enchantment Scrolls, the Manor System etc.
The rife secondary market in L2 always bothered me, but like you I was able to ignore the bots for the most part. But what I couldnt/cant ignore is the impact on my gaming the buyers had. Who wants to attack an IGE owned castle just to have it defended by top level clans who are being paid in Adena/Raided A Grade items for their services?
Still I had a good 21 months gameplay with L2 and its an awesome game.