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Player "skill" does not equal "hand-eye coordination"
Knightblast
Member UncommonPosts: 1,787
To be honest, I am growing tired of numerous posts which refer, glibly, to "player skill", when in reality what they mean to refer to is "hand eye coordination".
There are many more ways that a a player can be skilled other than hand eye coordination. Hand eye coordination is but one skill, and not necessarily a more valued one than any other. Now I'm not knocking people who prefer games that emphasise hand eye coordination, but it would help if the advocates of these games here would not refer to this as "player skill", but rather more simply and directly as "games that emphasise hand eye coordination".
There are many more ways that a a player can be skilled other than hand eye coordination. Hand eye coordination is but one skill, and not necessarily a more valued one than any other. Now I'm not knocking people who prefer games that emphasise hand eye coordination, but it would help if the advocates of these games here would not refer to this as "player skill", but rather more simply and directly as "games that emphasise hand eye coordination".
Comments
I wish the forum had a user moderation system, because I want to mod that post up.
Chris Mattern
i agree
in tons of mmos and mmorpgs, the so-called 'skill' is no more than the length of time u have been paying the game.
for example, on runescape, a really hi level player has no 'skill' but has only spent tons of time levelling up
i wish i had a rabbit
Most of the so-called skills in MMORPG's are little more than familiarity with the game mechanics (i.e pathing peculiarities in EQ 1) or plain old common sense.
Being ruthless may add to it too, but that's probably not a "skill".
No MMORPG to date has the complexity or difficulty of a game like Patrician 3 or Caesar or some such. Not to date anyhow.
You say that so dismissively, but if you've played any MMORPG for any length of time, you've found out by now just how uncommon "common sense" is...
Chris Mattern
That's a given.
Go to any MMO and give two people the same equipment and they will perform differently, sometimes by a large amount. The only explanation for this is that there is indeed a significant skill factor involved.
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly.
It should be thrown with great force"
Your attempt at sarcasm fails due to the fact you are absolutely right. Knowing which skill (button) to use, using it at the right time, using them against the correct target, not wasting it pointlessly at inopportune times are all very important and very valid skills.
In comparison twitch type skills are not skills at all. The goal with this type of skill is to completely remove conscious though from the process because it slows things down. It isn’t skill at all, rather pre established muscle memory, you fingers are trained to react without input from your conscious mind due to hours of repeating the same activity.
Once mastered through endless repetition this muscle memory does free up your conscious mind to consider the larger tactical picture, but that puts you in exactly the same position of using the right ability at the correct time against the correct target. All these twitch skills do is take you full circle. They insert a boring repetitive process of training muscle memory before you get to the true meat of tactical and strategic combat.
sure
ok then, will u plz back up all points made or it s not a valuid argument. the so-called 'skill' is no more than obsessive playing in some cases, but in others i agree that it is in fact actual skill cos of reaction times etc. it all depends on the mmo/mmorpg that u personally r playing 2 determine how much or how little skill is involved in playing the game. does everyone agree or do sun still think that all mmo's/mmorpg's require lots of skill or absolutely none whatsoever cos i think that this post settles the dispute
i wish i had a rabbit
"Pre established muscle memory, you fingers are trained to react without input from your conscious mind due to hours of repeating the same activity."
Did you just describe training / practice?
Not to advocate one side over another or say that there are sides or such... But I'd call that a skill, acquired through practice.
Maybe another word though... Player stats, player attributes - want to use that instead?
And what's with the bashing anyway? Somebody posts the notion that hand eye coordination isn't the only relevant player skill, and suddenly we've got "That's no skill," "This is the only real skill," "Yeah, get them hand-eyers outta here," feel all over it.
By the way, I lack some hand-eye coordination, and have not chosen to practice it very much. Language and maths would be my strongest skills - and these could well be tried in games. Communication, economical planning and (gawd) HP : damage ratio, for example...
Some games (maybe many) have an ultimate build, or allow everybody to learn and acquire everything, so that tactical choice of equipment and teaming with complimentary skills isn't meaningful. Games with classes usually do a bit better in this department, challenging your organizational skills by having you compose an efficient group. (Tank, mage, healer...) That's not enough to me.
And we've already opened for bucketloads of strategy. Special training might enable you to fire a bow from horseback, even while riding. Inaccurate, yes, but mobile like nobody. You're a lighter load than that knight too.
Skill, luck, information available prior to combat, it all figures in. If you know what you're facing you can prepare accordingly. If not, you'll need to prepare with versatility in mind, without losing your edge completely. A crossbow might help you, as it requires little training and fires a powerful shot. You won't get many shots off before the enemy is upon you, because it is slow, but before he reaches you, you will have drawn your sword. Your a swordsman with the perfect sidearm.
The future: Adellion
Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually
Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants)
Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens)
Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
well....
u certainly took onboard my point, only rs players will understand that, good job i am one
u no that u can over explain a point?
i wish i had a rabbit
However, althoughskill isn't required for many MMO's, it often helps by offering faster and more enjoyable progress. In addition to hand-eye co-oridnation the following skills will help:
Leadership - for being able to make progress with clueless groups
Teamworking - knowing that sacrificing your own interests for your groups can help you in the long term
Diplomacy - for handling the inevitable group/guild squabbles
Strategy - e.g. we are outnumbered 10-8 in pvp - should we sit back and defend hoping for reinforcements, or attack now despite the odds?
Tactics - hamstring the druid at the first opportunity to stop him taking advantage of his superior speed
Patience - enduring the grind
Economics - which items should I craft to earn the maximum amount of money per hour?
Sales - how much can you persuade someone to give you for that nice drop
Imagination - more useful on an RP server
Socialising - making friends and keeping them
Self-awareness - being able to predict which things you will find fun, and knowing how your individual skills best contribute to a group.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
the most skillfull online game out there for pvp is UO (not current UO mind, i'm talking about old skool UO), and that requires very little hand-eye coordination (if any). it makes me laugh when people say FPS's take skill to be good at... they don't even come close to being GOOD at pvp with a mage in ultima online.
A kid who boasts of uber-skillz and walks around with his two handed sword challenging all and sundry to duels and overcoming them with his superior reflexes, jumping around like crazy as he lands blow after blow.
or
A mature adult who may be a little slower, but uses a sword and shield and has a good understanding of which moves generate the most aggro, and an awareness of his role in the party and the need to protect the healers and damage dealers within the party.
Which player has the most skillz?
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
http://www.TheGamersAssociation.com
- reasonable twitch, but not at the level of FPSes like Quake or UT.
- understanding of mechanics and character 'role'
- situational awareness
usually all three can be 'trained' by simply investing time.
however a game can stretch a player by offering more variables to consider, more decisions to make and more dimensions for customizing your toon in the context of the game.
instead of: if situation A, do B
a skill-based game would be: if situation A, you can do B or C and D or E.
that's like saying:
"I laugh when people say it takes skill to play hockey, but they don't even come close to being good at basketball"
you're compairing 2 different games with 2 different play styles.
i'm not saying that FPSers kick everyones asses or anything, but it takes skill for every kind of game, just different skills. but the hand/eye 'twitch' does help for everything, knowing what to do is one thing, actually doing it is another.
Hmm good analysis of the skills though possibly overanalysis with the skills of diplomacy, socializing, self-awareness and Economics mentioned.
Leadership i definitely noted was one of prime importance in raids and groups. Teamworking, I'm not sure this is tested much in something like WoW, in EQ and raid encounters it was a little bit more tested. But I think the highest amount of so-called teamwork would be found in pvp team vs pvp team. Strategy, I do recall some aspects of strategy in WoW's BGs. And certainly would be prominent in a game like DAoC. Tactics, falls under strategy really. Sales- in a game like EQ with the EC tunnel not with auction houses. Imagination, a skill I forgot about and something very prominant on RP servers.
Go to any MMO and give two people the same equipment and they will perform differently, sometimes by a large amount. The only explanation for this is that there is indeed a significant skill factor involved.
This is the opinion that closest mirrors my own.
Reflexs and hand eye, while only being part of the equation, are still a big factor. But this is a natural aptitude, a talent, not a skill. A skill is something learnt. A talent s something you are born with.
There are skills too, knowledge of the game, and also tactical awareness. The ability to communicate well is a great team skill, short direct communication using uncomplicated and unconfused diction for example. Choosing the right team, being socially adapt enough to stay in your guild etc etc
There are more.
Essentially once you have played games like Counterstrike or America's Army you get to see how completey different two peoples abilities can be with the exact same tools. Reflexes help, but there is more to those games than simple "twitch".
Absolutely, and practice is fundamentally boring. Sure a good instructor can make it less so, but the basics of practice is that you do a very specific activity, you do it perfectly every time, and repeat it many thousands of times until it becomes so engrained that you can do it without thinking about it. The problem with this in a game is that fun is directly related to mental stimulation, the very thing you are trying to train out of yourself to develop reflexes and hand to eye coordination.
The reason why any game remains fun after you have reached this mind numbed state is that you are free to look at the larger tactical picture. It isn’t reflexes or hand to eye coordination that separates a great player in a FPS from an average player it’s their tactical ability, the reflexes and hand to eye coordination just set a minimum standard you have to meet before you can begin the real game.
This is why the real skills behind any game have nothing to do with, reflexes or hand to eye coordination. What makes the game fun or not is tactical and strategic thought process you can engage in after you have reached a competent level in these areas. This does exist, it’s why some MMO players are better then others and it’s independent of your twitch ability.
I had an interesting experience there. The first time you posted, I didn't understand what you meant at all. Now I did. This rarely happens. Usually, when people make little sense to me I can point at something and say "that was wrong".
Your logic makes sense.
But what is your definition of a skill? I would say that the bare minimum of training is also a skill. A fundamental one at that. It doesn't cease to be a skill if you're useless without it.
And I guess, by my own logic, I'll have to define walking as a skill. This could sound a little far fetched? Sure... But on the other hand, some people drag their feet lazily along, some trip, some expend less energy to walk a mile... Not only does it provide you with a good basis for running, but it can actually be perfected beyond the bare minimum.
Still, calling walking a skill feels very strange, because everybody has it and uses it without greater concern. Much like hand-eye coordination. In the end, I can only conclude that I have a very fuzzy definition of skill.
The future: Adellion
Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually
Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants)
Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens)
Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
That seems incomplete to me. The essence of tactics is choosing the right one for the situation. I.E.:
Hamstring the druid at the first opportunity to stop him taking advantage of his superior speed
OR
Silence the mage to prevent him from using his firepower.
Both are desirable goals but you need to pick which one is best for the situation at hand and make it your top priority. Making this decision correctly is the key to success in any game, be it FPS, MMO, or turn based.
Even in game formats like FPS know for “twitch” hand to eye coordination and reflexes only separate the noobs from the mediocre players. There is a whole layer beneath these that separates the truly good players. This is why I think twitch is an impediment to an MMO, it’s boring to develop and doesn’t play a role in the truly interesting parts of the game. Sure, for some game formats it will always be a requirement but why would you ever want to add it to a game format that doesn’t require it?
Go to any MMO and give two people the same equipment and they will perform differently, sometimes by a large amount. The only explanation for this is that there is indeed a significant skill factor involved.
End of Thread
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