FPS players and RPG players could join for SWG?

Glemoran

Imagine you want to buy a brand new car, and you go directly to the local Ford representative. There, you explain to the salesman you need a family car, big enough for you to feel free. He agrees and shows you the last Ford SWG 2006, a 2 seats car. You look at the car, you look at the vendor, then tell him: "But this is a 2 seats car, a sport car". "No, he answers, that's just an illusion. Please take a tour in our station's courtyard station, you'll see it's a family car".

But after the tour your opinions are even worse. You notice the breakes are not functioning well, the direction is not reliable, and, anyway, the car moves like a sport car. So you'll go back to the car salesman and tell him: "I'm sorry. This IS a sport car". The vendor answers: "Well you definitely should try it OUTSIDE our courtyard, but there is a small problem: you should buy it first". You tell him: "I don't think so: the car has also some technical issues". The vendor looks at you offended: "Of course we are aware of these issues, mister. That's why we have the best service on the market. We are upgrading our car on monthly basis. For instance, next month we we'll launch Pub 29, which will change it's appearance completely: instead of this long, sharp and low profile, you'll have a car looking like a Jeep Cherokee, perfectly suited for your entire family. The month after that we'll come with Pub 30, that will make it look like a Hammer. And AFTER that...sssshhh....we'll make it look like a Volkswagen Beatle. But nobody is allowed to know that yet".

You look at the vendor trying to establish which one of you is out of his mind. Then carefully, keeping a big smile on your face, you slowly moves towards the exit and close the door carefully behind you.

Now my question is: why should I allow SOE something I would never accept from a car producer: messing with my mind and with my money? Is there ANYONE who thinks SOE will be able to combine the Role Playing rules with the FPS simplicity? Do you think there is ANY chance to make a game able to attract ALL types of players?

War_Dancer

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Originally posted by Glemoran

 Is there ANYONE who thinks SOE will be able to combine the Role Playing rules with the FPS simplicity? Do you think there is ANY chance to make a game able to attract ALL types of players?

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FPS and RPGs can be combined nicely. I've played some that were alot of fun but they both still felt and played like good FPS while being effected by RPG skills and special abilities ..... that is something the game engine for the NGE won't ever be able to do and slowing combat down is only going to make the FPS side of it worse.

Glemoran

Actually Deus EX used to have some RPG elements and so did Ghost Recon indeed. I loved both of them. And Morrowind and Oblivion are 2 RPG with strong FPS mechanics. So I know you're right. I just want to know what other people think about that, and even more, I would like to know how a big company like SOE failed where smaller companies succeeded.

Obraik

Pub 29 will do alot to add more of the RPG stuff back into the game. 

• It introduces critical hits, glancing blows and, trivial hits.  Your chances for these happening is determined by your stats (Precision, strength, etc).  If you have a certain stat higher then your oponent then they're more likely to do a glancing or trivial hit while you'll be more likely to do critical hits on them.  Of course, this happens both ways
• Different postures are returning which also affect the above.  The closer to the ground you are, the more likely you are to do a critical hit.  However, the closer to the ground you are, the more you are at risk of taking critical hits from those attacking you with Melee weapons.
• Elemential damage on weapons will apply states on opponents.  If you have a weapon that does cold damage for instance, you have a chance to snare them.  If your weapon has a heat damage then they have a chance of catching on fire and suffering a DoT.
• Damage will be based on weapons, not your level.  So, it pays to take the time to find the best weapon you can get.
• There is now more of a focus on using specials.  Currently in many cases, using a special isn't really needed when taking on an NPC enemy unless they're an elite.  With pub 29 and the reduced combat speed, using specials can make a big difference in your battle.

Wildcat84

And you also have to somehow do all that with only two hands while:

1. Moving to keep the target in range (especially bad in melee).
2. Keeping your crosshair on the target, which has a hitbox smaller than your cursor.

Horrible, bad UI.  This is why no other MMO uses this sort of combat system.  Bring back a real target lock now that the hits and misses are going to be determined largely by stats again, there is no more need for this mouse aiming BS.

Obraik

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Originally posted by Wildcat84
And you also have to somehow do all that with only two hands while:

1. Moving to keep the target in range (especially bad in melee)

Was posted by a Dev today that the movement rates are being adjusted.

2. Keeping your crosshair on the target, which has a hitbox smaller than your cursor.

The targets hitbox is as big as the target is, you don't have to aim in one spot.

Horrible, bad UI.  This is why no other MMO uses this sort of combat system.  Bring back a real target lock now that the hits and misses are going to be determined largely by stats again, there is no more need for this mouse aiming BS.

A dev also posted today that they're looking into making the target safety thingo a toggle rather then having to hold down CTRL whenever you want to only damage the target.

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Wildcat84

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Originally posted by Obraik




Originally posted by Wildcat84
And you also have to somehow do all that with only two hands while:

1. Moving to keep the target in range (especially bad in melee)
Was posted by a Dev today that the movement rates are being adjusted.
2. Keeping your crosshair on the target, which has a hitbox smaller than your cursor.
The targets hitbox is as big as the target is, you don't have to aim in one spot.

Horrible, bad UI.  This is why no other MMO uses this sort of combat system.  Bring back a real target lock now that the hits and misses are going to be determined largely by stats again, there is no more need for this mouse aiming BS.
A dev also posted today that they're looking into making the target safety thingo a toggle rather then having to hold down CTRL whenever you want to only damage the target.

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The target safety thing has nothing to do with the idiocy of not having true target lock.  They are basically going back to turn based with this change, they should go all the way rather than half ass it.

bugzonlsd

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Originally posted by Glemoran

Imagine you want to buy a brand new car, and you go directly to the local Ford representative. There, you explain to the salesman you need a family car, big enough for you to feel free. He agrees and shows you the last Ford SWG 2006, a 2 seats car. You look at the car, you look at the vendor, then tell him: "But this is a 2 seats car, a sport car". "No, he answers, that's just an illusion. Please take a tour in our station's courtyard station, you'll see it's a family car".
But after the tour your opinions are even worse. You notice the breakes are not functioning well, the direction is not reliable, and, anyway, the car moves like a sport car. So you'll go back to the car salesman and tell him: "I'm sorry. This IS a sport car". The vendor answers: "Well you definitely should try it OUTSIDE our courtyard, but there is a small problem: you should buy it first". You tell him: "I don't think so: the car has also some technical issues". The vendor looks at you offended: "Of course we are aware of these issues, mister. That's why we have the best service on the market. We are upgrading our car on monthly basis. For instance, next month we we'll launch Pub 29, which will change it's appearance completely: instead of this long, sharp and low profile, you'll have a car looking like a Jeep Cherokee, perfectly suited for your entire family. The month after that we'll come with Pub 30, that will make it look like a Hammer. And AFTER that...sssshhh....we'll make it look like a Volkswagen Beatle. But nobody is allowed to know that yet".
You look at the vendor trying to establish which one of you is out of his mind. Then carefully, keeping a big smile on your face, you slowly moves towards the exit and close the door carefully behind you.
Now my question is: why should I allow SOE something I would never accept from a car producer: messing with my mind and with my money? Is there ANYONE who thinks SOE will be able to combine the Role Playing rules with the FPS simplicity? Do you think there is ANY chance to make a game able to attract ALL types of players?

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Id doubt it, thats one of the things that bothers me about the NGE, we had the choice to switch from fpv to 3pv, and still do it seems yet...they screwed that up somehow, its not the same, and that stupid little targeting reticle that  seems to lead your character sucks. I much preferred the targetlock thing and the ability to maneuver your character in different and even circular directions as a pose to running strait back while shooting.

 I dont see how that aspect of it would attract anyone, hell its one of the things that ran me off.

Chessack

I think the problem is that, because they keep trying to do something to get their subscription numbers up, they keep trying to make the game appeal to all gamers.

The problem is, that means it's a hybrid of a bunch of different gaming styles all rolled into one -- it does everything a little bit, but none of it really well. And that mostly means that instead of appealing to everyone, it appeals to almost no one.

C

Glemoran

You're right...but the strangest thing is: other companies did it. Maybe they just don't have a good team?

xPaladin

Hard to say. I tend to think it's problems with long term vision mixed with various passions for the game. I say this based on the happenings at SOE over the past year -- it seems to me like the people doing the grunt work get their ideas largely ignored by whomever is in charge of design decisions and that can be fustrating as all hell.

Also, all SOE games have the unilateral content dearth that makes the games feel the same. For example, in EQ2, MxO, and even SWG, you're dropped off without so much as a clue as what to do. There's no ideal path(s) in mind other than "here you are, do your own thing, and have fun." Not that such a stance is bad, but if the player is limited in ability to do whatever, it's going to have a seriously negative impact on the user experience.

From my own experience, one of the stumbling blocks I ran into with MxO is that once I got the hang of cell phone based missions, the game got boring really fast. I couldn't envision myself doing that same thing over and over every day for a month. Yet, players on the forums are more than happy to inform you of other types of missions out there. For the Joe Blow searching on his own, they're not at all obvious. Searching for them wouldn't be a daunting prospect either (it could in fact be really fun) but for the repetition in the combat system and

The point there is that the small subtle stuff adds to the loss of immersive quality. SOE hasn't quite figured out how to make immersion work, although, ironically, they about hit the nail on the head with the original design of SWG, with the possible exception of combat (which, IMO, makes the whole CU/NGE stuff all the more hilarious as they undo social immersion in favor of better combat).

Glemoran

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Originally posted by xPaladin
Hard to say. I tend to think it's problems with long term vision mixed with various passions for the game. I say this based on the happenings at SOE over the past year -- it seems to me like the people doing the grunt work get their ideas largely ignored by whomever is in charge of design decisions and that can be fustrating as all hell.

Also, all SOE games have the unilateral content dearth that makes the games feel the same. For example, in EQ2, MxO, and even SWG, you're dropped off without so much as a clue as what to do. There's no ideal path(s) in mind other than "here you are, do your own thing, and have fun." Not that such a stance is bad, but if the player is limited in ability to do whatever, it's going to have a seriously negative impact on the user experience.

From my own experience, one of the stumbling blocks I ran into with MxO is that once I got the hang of cell phone based missions, the game got boring really fast. I couldn't envision myself doing that same thing over and over every day for a month. Yet, players on the forums are more than happy to inform you of other types of missions out there. For the Joe Blow searching on his own, they're not at all obvious. Searching for them wouldn't be a daunting prospect either (it could in fact be really fun) but for the repetition in the combat system and

The point there is that the small subtle stuff adds to the loss of immersive quality. SOE hasn't quite figured out how to make immersion work, although, ironically, they about hit the nail on the head with the original design of SWG, with the possible exception of combat (which, IMO, makes the whole CU/NGE stuff all the more hilarious as they undo social immersion in favor of better combat).

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Now this is one of the best SOE analysis I've read...SOE should pay you for that ...and yes, maybe is their own corporative tradition that stops them to build immersive worlds...maybe they just don't have that type of thinking, and they will never hire somebody with a different opinion...and of course since they had some succes with EQ2 and Matrix they will never change their thinking for SWG...