Actually, Anchorman DID suck. (But I suppose I should take that to the Anchorman forum.)
If there is any correlation to be drawn from the QRs and the game experience I had pre and post nerfage, I'd say this: when the biggest rounds of nerfs started coming out, a lot of people who didn't like seeing their toons neutered left. To draw people back in, NCSoft started giving away free trials to the game which - while padding the population stats - didn't really improve the bottom line.
So yes, nerfs did hurt subscriptions, IMHO in a big way, because NCSoft is having to offer freebies/promos and lay people off because CoH/V and Auto Assault have become money pits.
Would I like to return to CoH? Yep. For the time I was on January through May of 05, I had a blast. Then travel suppression hit and my superhero felt a lot less super.
The point I'm trying to make is that I was a loyal customer. Even had 2 accounts. But when you piss off your current customers in anticipation and hope of getting more, you end up with neither. That's where Cryptic is right now: losing long-time customers and not getting new ones due to bad PR and word-of-mouth.
Would I like to see the devs learn their lesson from this? Yes, again. Unfortunately, I don't think they can. They're too beholden to their "vision" to consider what people like me want in a game. And I had that which I considered fun in Issue 3 pre-suppression.
Now here's a question: if the devs were faced with a choice between rolling back the most heinous nerfs and letting the game fold, which would they do?
Frankly, I think Emmert's ego is too big to allow him to admit he was wrong on so many levels with that game. He'd probably close-up shop on it rather than admit he screwed up so badly.
if the financial reports were so bad, someone over at NCSoft would have to consult with Cryptic about it to get some changes in and get subs back up, right?
How do we know that hasn't happened?
Know why GW has sold over 2 million licenses?
1. I think it's simply a better game. 2. No subscription fee. 3. Factions was a brilliant marketing move because it catered specifically to Asian markets, where most MMOs far outsell the American market (see any Asian-looking toons in CoX?) 4. It's a fantasy MMO. And the superhero genre is a distinctly American product. 5. A distinct lack of character-breaking nerfs.
The ranger I'm playing today is the same ranger I was playing on July 5, 2005, when I created him. How many toons can you say that about in CoH? Moral of the story? People don't like change. And they feel especially cheated when the toon they spent hundreds of dollars and hours designing and playing gets the rug pulled out from under him every time the devs get a bug up their collective ass.
The folks at Cryptic should take notes. Or at least pick up the phone and call someone at ArenaNet.
Lack of nerfs takes a far backseat to the fact that GW has no subscription fee, when referring to its success. Do you hear this conversation often? :
"Why do you like GW so much?"
"They don't nerf us!"
You're just putting the same thing into an annoying rhetoric. Nerfs are the downfall of the game. Nerfs caused massive subscription losses, so you should be ashamed of liking this game, you twit! Frankly, if they nerf me, I won't care unless it breaks my fun so much that I can't justify paying money for it. Pre-I5 and I6, everything was a farking walk in the park, and PLing was unstoppably rampant. If you were an ice tanker, you had no hope. If you were a non-healer, people couldn't justify inviting you to a team. SR scrappers just plain sucked compared to everyone else, and regen was a god, even after all the nerfs. Fire tankers were gods, and illusion controllers were profoundly favored to any other controller.
I'd say that things are definitely different than they were before, and no powerset is *truly*, *undeniably* better than another, sans Fire/Kin controllers which are said to be near-unstoppable, but you don't see much else like these statements. On top of that, PLing is cut down a ton in-game, though you see the random request occasionally, and tanks aren't the most revered players in the game compared to other AT's.
Is the game more fun? That's for you to decide. I personally think it's fun, but I don't much enjoy the grind at the higher levels. Whether or not the nerfs have made a big impact, we just can't tell because CoV came out directly when ED did, therefore they're still getting a big boost, even if they do lose some numbers. Apparently if this were the case, it worked out for them seeing as the subscriptions went up (as far as *I* know). Any statements that nerfs caused a massive dropoff, we just can't tell because we don't have data on specifically CoH or specifically CoV.
In any case, we shouldn't even have to go into an argument about a stupid topic like this, because it's just one side bickering against the other, where one can never convince the other, about something that's completely subjective to a person and that both sides have insufficient information about.
Whether you feel betrayed is fine, regardless if you were a loyal customer or not. But they don't treat loyal customers with a promise that they're not going to change anything, as the needs of the many always outweigh the needs of the one. They take the game's direction whichever way they see fit to make a profit, and they have taken action to go into that direction. If they're not making a profit, they'd be making changes to do so. It's a business for a reason.
In the case of suppression, they went with the decision of listening to the playerbase on whether to keep that or the -acc. From what I saw, it was split pretty evenly (though I'm *sure* you feel differently), so they didn't have much of a choice. How does this fit in their "vision?" Perhaps this promotes a playstyle where exploits are deterred and you need to think out your plans more before you take them into action (hence a deterrence from running). I could be wrong, but that sounds feasible. I don't want to totally derail from the main topic, so if you want to discuss that, just PM me.
In the cases of I5 and I6, I think they were just trying to make one powerset *not* favorable over another, in any way they could. They also addressed the issue of the post-SO game being "too easy," though that's debatable.
Whether we can tell these caused massive dropoffs in subscriptions, we honestly can't know because, as said before, we don't have the sufficient data on each game specifically to make the difference. It should simply be put to rest and not worried about.
I'm sorry to ramble on like this, but this really has to be put to an end. The endless bickering, that I just *cannot fathom* for whatever reason why it comes from you, gets us all nowhere and just starts even *more* bickering. It doesn't solve any problems. "Statesman and his band of idiots should get a clue" doesn't solve any problems. If you're going to state or suggest something, at least have the class to do it without filthying the board with insults against other people. We're better than that middle-school habit and we don't need to make reading these boards a dreadful experience.
I'm sorry to ramble on like this, but this really has to be put to an end. The endless bickering, that I just *cannot fathom* for whatever reason why it comes from you, gets us all nowhere and just starts even *more* bickering. It doesn't solve any problems. "Statesman and his band of idiots should get a clue" doesn't solve any problems. If you're going to state or suggest something, at least have the class to do it without filthying the board with insults against other people.
Why? Why are YOU taking this all so personally??? This isn't about you. And yes, I felt cheated out of hundreds of dollars and hundreds of hours of my time. Since this is the ONLY place I can come to voice my frustration over this, then what right do you have to tell me to do otherwise?
No one is forcing you to read MMORPG.com. As a subscriber to CoH, you're entitled to post all you want to the CoH boards, where you and your cadre of "true believers" in Statesman's Gospel can interact without EVER seeing the way other people feel about Cryptic and the people that run it.
I suggest if you can't handle the truth about your beloved game, you go back there.
There's one other point to consider in all of this. Have you noticed how many MMOs are out or coming out soon?
Two years ago, CoH didn't have the competition it does now for entertainment dollars. Today it does, and people are leaving to go elsewhere. Instead of bringing back the things that made CoH unique, the devs insist on turning it into clones of every other MMO out there, and in doing that they will only lose in the long run when there are newer, better offerings coming down the pike.
Edit: I'm taking this personally because it's a game I enjoy and you make some false accusations (IMO) about it and vent about how much it sucks, even though nearly everyone else has gotten over the changes to it and moved on with their lives. It just gets on my nerves and grinds my gears. I'd be surprised if I'm the only one that feels this way.
Does that answer your question?
If you don't like the game, that's great, but you don't have to go about it so malevolently. I just don't see the point in sticking around (for example) an Xbox forum, when I sold mine a year ago, telling other people that it sucks and sales are going down so *they* should think it sucks, too. I just *don't* see the point, Serling. To vent? Sure, but why carry a grudge for so long? Carrying a grudge won't get your money back. Maybe it will warn others not to invest in it, but I doubt it. That's probably your end goal, is it not?
No offense to you, just trying to reason. I suppose we could just drop the argument and just leave each other be, if you prefer? I don't find this back-and-forth to be getting anywhere, so let's agree to disagree, hm?
Just a minor caveat to Aaron's previous comment on all MMOs take a drop after launch. I think we all know there is one exception but I don't want to say much more since it appears Aaron has taken a full tray of Rages and his Fury bar is at full.
Thank god I have a 50 FF defender. /em Personal Force Field activated, Maneuvers on, and Dispersion Field on. Wow, I really wish ED wasn't in effect. Aaron is so mad, I may need that extra defense.
If nothing else, forums are sometimes more entertaining than the game.
Anyways, my point was from reading your comment about 'every' MMO going down after launch, usually within a few months from how I read it.
"As far as I see it, the largest dip was after CoH released, and I can understand that--the "newness" wears off and people leave. Happens in every MMO."
Not to mention my experience of the numbers on games such as CoH, EQ and EQII says basically the same thing. I was not aware your timeframe was continous, anywhere from 3+ months to over 3 years, which surely ANY game will evenutally fall. Nice strawman if that is how you are presenting it. You presented CoH's 'typical' fall in subscription as the norm for all MMOs and it fell within the first quarter, yet now you are saying WoW isn't any different when it kept climbing well AFTER launch???
I had thought you were reasonable and would see the humor in a CoH reference. I chose to inject CoH references for humor as I could have said the same thing without it for a truly insulting effect. I had thought after all your posts, you were the type of person to see things differently and would appreciate the humor since you are always telling others not to take things so seriously. Sorry if you took it as an insult but it is an image you have propagated in my eyes. I guess I was wrong.
Sorry tute, the back-and-forth of all this made me snap. No biggie.
I don't see it as a strawman, the point I was trying to make is that in most MMO's (as far as I know) have their largest dip when the newness wears off. Quite ostensibly that hasn't happened with WoW yet. It's won many awards and people are still buzzing good word-of-mouth around about it. EVE Online is a similar situation.
With CoX, it's a bit of a mixed bag, yknow? You've got the first-ever superhero MMO, with a completely new storyline (non-DC/Marvel), with a completely new development team, whereas with WoW, you've got a well-praised franchise and development company backing it up.
If you're to look at mmogchart.com, most games have their dip, and tend to fluctuate up and down. I was referring to that initial dip.
I'm taking this personally because it's a game I enjoy and you make some false accusations (IMO) about it and vent about how much it sucks, even though nearly everyone else has gotten over the changes to it and moved on with their lives. It just gets on my nerves and grinds my gears. I'd be surprised if I'm the only one that feels this way.
Re: your feelings. I can't be responsible for the way you feel. Again, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
Re: false accusations. I'm citing stats from NCSoft's own investor reports in a thread asking if this game "not getting all the attention it needs?" There are two ways to look at the question in light of the 1Q-06 IR, either it is getting all the attention it needs, and people are still leaving in droves, or it is not getting all the attention it needs and people are still leaving in droves.
If it's getting attention from the devs, is it getting the wrong kind of attention? I'd offer an emphatic "yes."
The devs have spent more time on balance than on content with a game more than two years out of release! And even you admit the high-end content is severly lacking. So the game is getting attention but clearly not the kind it needs to hold subscribers. If anything, the devs should've learned by now that no one plays a game for balance. They play it for fun. Their obsession with balance has taken a great deal of fun out of the game for a great number of people. You simply have to look at the earnings statement to see that this is indisputable.
Again, you may not want to read this because you still find the game fun, but you're in an ever-shrinking group of people that do.
Re: moving on. I have. I bring this up because I'd like to see nerfs rolled back and the game succeed. I'd even like to come back to CoH some day. But since that won't happen, having been a subscriber there myself, I'm simply here on MMORPG.com (not the CoH website) alerting others to the fact that the game isn't what it's cracked up to be. If someone thinks it's worth $15 a month to play, more power to them. However I don't and will continue to voice my reasons why I think it's not.
Well, I finally see where you're coming from, Serling, and I'm glad we could find some common ground. I understand what you're saying, but I'll have to disagree on some of your points, though. Let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that, hm?
One's word against another's doesn't make for a very friendly argument.
Comments
Actually, Anchorman DID suck. (But I suppose I should take that to the Anchorman forum.)
If there is any correlation to be drawn from the QRs and the game experience I had pre and post nerfage, I'd say this: when the biggest rounds of nerfs started coming out, a lot of people who didn't like seeing their toons neutered left. To draw people back in, NCSoft started giving away free trials to the game which - while padding the population stats - didn't really improve the bottom line.
So yes, nerfs did hurt subscriptions, IMHO in a big way, because NCSoft is having to offer freebies/promos and lay people off because CoH/V and Auto Assault have become money pits.
Would I like to return to CoH? Yep. For the time I was on January through May of 05, I had a blast. Then travel suppression hit and my superhero felt a lot less super.
The point I'm trying to make is that I was a loyal customer. Even had 2 accounts. But when you piss off your current customers in anticipation and hope of getting more, you end up with neither. That's where Cryptic is right now: losing long-time customers and not getting new ones due to bad PR and word-of-mouth.
Would I like to see the devs learn their lesson from this? Yes, again. Unfortunately, I don't think they can. They're too beholden to their "vision" to consider what people like me want in a game. And I had that which I considered fun in Issue 3 pre-suppression.
Now here's a question: if the devs were faced with a choice between rolling back the most heinous nerfs and letting the game fold, which would they do?
Frankly, I think Emmert's ego is too big to allow him to admit he was wrong on so many levels with that game. He'd probably close-up shop on it rather than admit he screwed up so badly.
How do we know that hasn't happened?
Know why GW has sold over 2 million licenses?
1. I think it's simply a better game.
2. No subscription fee.
3. Factions was a brilliant marketing move because it catered specifically to Asian markets, where most MMOs far outsell the American market (see any Asian-looking toons in CoX?)
4. It's a fantasy MMO. And the superhero genre is a distinctly American product.
5. A distinct lack of character-breaking nerfs.
The ranger I'm playing today is the same ranger I was playing on July 5, 2005, when I created him. How many toons can you say that about in CoH? Moral of the story? People don't like change. And they feel especially cheated when the toon they spent hundreds of dollars and hours designing and playing gets the rug pulled out from under him every time the devs get a bug up their collective ass.
The folks at Cryptic should take notes. Or at least pick up the phone and call someone at ArenaNet.
Lack of nerfs takes a far backseat to the fact that GW has no subscription fee, when referring to its success. Do you hear this conversation often? :
"Why do you like GW so much?"
"They don't nerf us!"
You're just putting the same thing into an annoying rhetoric. Nerfs are the downfall of the game. Nerfs caused massive subscription losses, so you should be ashamed of liking this game, you twit! Frankly, if they nerf me, I won't care unless it breaks my fun so much that I can't justify paying money for it. Pre-I5 and I6, everything was a farking walk in the park, and PLing was unstoppably rampant. If you were an ice tanker, you had no hope. If you were a non-healer, people couldn't justify inviting you to a team. SR scrappers just plain sucked compared to everyone else, and regen was a god, even after all the nerfs. Fire tankers were gods, and illusion controllers were profoundly favored to any other controller.
I'd say that things are definitely different than they were before, and no powerset is *truly*, *undeniably* better than another, sans Fire/Kin controllers which are said to be near-unstoppable, but you don't see much else like these statements. On top of that, PLing is cut down a ton in-game, though you see the random request occasionally, and tanks aren't the most revered players in the game compared to other AT's.
Is the game more fun? That's for you to decide. I personally think it's fun, but I don't much enjoy the grind at the higher levels. Whether or not the nerfs have made a big impact, we just can't tell because CoV came out directly when ED did, therefore they're still getting a big boost, even if they do lose some numbers. Apparently if this were the case, it worked out for them seeing as the subscriptions went up (as far as *I* know). Any statements that nerfs caused a massive dropoff, we just can't tell because we don't have data on specifically CoH or specifically CoV.
In any case, we shouldn't even have to go into an argument about a stupid topic like this, because it's just one side bickering against the other, where one can never convince the other, about something that's completely subjective to a person and that both sides have insufficient information about.
Whether you feel betrayed is fine, regardless if you were a loyal customer or not. But they don't treat loyal customers with a promise that they're not going to change anything, as the needs of the many always outweigh the needs of the one. They take the game's direction whichever way they see fit to make a profit, and they have taken action to go into that direction. If they're not making a profit, they'd be making changes to do so. It's a business for a reason.
In the case of suppression, they went with the decision of listening to the playerbase on whether to keep that or the -acc. From what I saw, it was split pretty evenly (though I'm *sure* you feel differently), so they didn't have much of a choice. How does this fit in their "vision?" Perhaps this promotes a playstyle where exploits are deterred and you need to think out your plans more before you take them into action (hence a deterrence from running). I could be wrong, but that sounds feasible. I don't want to totally derail from the main topic, so if you want to discuss that, just PM me.
In the cases of I5 and I6, I think they were just trying to make one powerset *not* favorable over another, in any way they could. They also addressed the issue of the post-SO game being "too easy," though that's debatable.
Whether we can tell these caused massive dropoffs in subscriptions, we honestly can't know because, as said before, we don't have the sufficient data on each game specifically to make the difference. It should simply be put to rest and not worried about.
I'm sorry to ramble on like this, but this really has to be put to an end. The endless bickering, that I just *cannot fathom* for whatever reason why it comes from you, gets us all nowhere and just starts even *more* bickering. It doesn't solve any problems. "Statesman and his band of idiots should get a clue" doesn't solve any problems. If you're going to state or suggest something, at least have the class to do it without filthying the board with insults against other people. We're better than that middle-school habit and we don't need to make reading these boards a dreadful experience.
Let's compromise,
Aaron
Why? Why are YOU taking this all so personally??? This isn't about you. And yes, I felt cheated out of hundreds of dollars and hundreds of hours of my time. Since this is the ONLY place I can come to voice my frustration over this, then what right do you have to tell me to do otherwise?
No one is forcing you to read MMORPG.com. As a subscriber to CoH, you're entitled to post all you want to the CoH boards, where you and your cadre of "true believers" in Statesman's Gospel can interact without EVER seeing the way other people feel about Cryptic and the people that run it.
I suggest if you can't handle the truth about your beloved game, you go back there.
There's one other point to consider in all of this. Have you noticed how many MMOs are out or coming out soon?
Two years ago, CoH didn't have the competition it does now for entertainment dollars. Today it does, and people are leaving to go elsewhere. Instead of bringing back the things that made CoH unique, the devs insist on turning it into clones of every other MMO out there, and in doing that they will only lose in the long run when there are newer, better offerings coming down the pike.
Edit: I'm taking this personally because it's a game I enjoy and you make some false accusations (IMO) about it and vent about how much it sucks, even though nearly everyone else has gotten over the changes to it and moved on with their lives. It just gets on my nerves and grinds my gears. I'd be surprised if I'm the only one that feels this way.
Does that answer your question?
If you don't like the game, that's great, but you don't have to go about it so malevolently. I just don't see the point in sticking around (for example) an Xbox forum, when I sold mine a year ago, telling other people that it sucks and sales are going down so *they* should think it sucks, too. I just *don't* see the point, Serling. To vent? Sure, but why carry a grudge for so long? Carrying a grudge won't get your money back. Maybe it will warn others not to invest in it, but I doubt it. That's probably your end goal, is it not?
No offense to you, just trying to reason. I suppose we could just drop the argument and just leave each other be, if you prefer? I don't find this back-and-forth to be getting anywhere, so let's agree to disagree, hm?
Just a minor caveat to Aaron's previous comment on all MMOs take a drop after launch. I think we all know there is one exception but I don't want to say much more since it appears Aaron has taken a full tray of Rages and his Fury bar is at full.
Thank god I have a 50 FF defender. /em Personal Force Field activated, Maneuvers on, and Dispersion Field on. Wow, I really wish ED wasn't in effect. Aaron is so mad, I may need that extra defense.
If nothing else, forums are sometimes more entertaining than the game.
Excuse me? What's your problem? At least I'm trying to reason.
And no, WoW is *not* exempt from this. It's not going to go up and up forever. It might for awhile longer, but not forever.
Well, so much for levity.
Anyways, my point was from reading your comment about 'every' MMO going down after launch, usually within a few months from how I read it.
"As far as I see it, the largest dip was after CoH released, and I can
understand that--the "newness" wears off and people leave. Happens in
every MMO."
Not to mention my experience of the numbers on games such as CoH, EQ and EQII says basically the same thing. I was not aware your timeframe was continous, anywhere from 3+ months to over 3 years, which surely ANY game will evenutally fall. Nice strawman if that is how you are presenting it. You presented CoH's 'typical' fall in subscription as the norm for all MMOs and it fell within the first quarter, yet now you are saying WoW isn't any different when it kept climbing well AFTER launch???
I had thought you were reasonable and would see the humor in a CoH reference. I chose to inject CoH references for humor as I could have said the same thing without it for a truly insulting effect. I had thought after all your posts, you were the type of person to see things differently and would appreciate the humor since you are always telling others not to take things so seriously. Sorry if you took it as an insult but it is an image you have propagated in my eyes. I guess I was wrong.
I don't see it as a strawman, the point I was trying to make is that in most MMO's (as far as I know) have their largest dip when the newness wears off. Quite ostensibly that hasn't happened with WoW yet. It's won many awards and people are still buzzing good word-of-mouth around about it. EVE Online is a similar situation.
With CoX, it's a bit of a mixed bag, yknow? You've got the first-ever superhero MMO, with a completely new storyline (non-DC/Marvel), with a completely new development team, whereas with WoW, you've got a well-praised franchise and development company backing it up.
If you're to look at mmogchart.com, most games have their dip, and tend to fluctuate up and down. I was referring to that initial dip.
Re: your feelings. I can't be responsible for the way you feel. Again, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
Re: false accusations. I'm citing stats from NCSoft's own investor reports in a thread asking if this game "not getting all the attention it needs?" There are two ways to look at the question in light of the 1Q-06 IR, either it is getting all the attention it needs, and people are still leaving in droves, or it is not getting all the attention it needs and people are still leaving in droves.
If it's getting attention from the devs, is it getting the wrong kind of attention? I'd offer an emphatic "yes."
The devs have spent more time on balance than on content with a game more than two years out of release! And even you admit the high-end content is severly lacking. So the game is getting attention but clearly not the kind it needs to hold subscribers. If anything, the devs should've learned by now that no one plays a game for balance. They play it for fun. Their obsession with balance has taken a great deal of fun out of the game for a great number of people. You simply have to look at the earnings statement to see that this is indisputable.
Again, you may not want to read this because you still find the game fun, but you're in an ever-shrinking group of people that do.
Re: moving on. I have. I bring this up because I'd like to see nerfs rolled back and the game succeed. I'd even like to come back to CoH some day. But since that won't happen, having been a subscriber there myself, I'm simply here on MMORPG.com (not the CoH website) alerting others to the fact that the game isn't what it's cracked up to be. If someone thinks it's worth $15 a month to play, more power to them. However I don't and will continue to voice my reasons why I think it's not.
Well, I finally see where you're coming from, Serling, and I'm glad we could find some common ground. I understand what you're saying, but I'll have to disagree on some of your points, though. Let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that, hm?
One's word against another's doesn't make for a very friendly argument.