I agree with putting an end to the male vs female viewpoint and/or assigning game play to which gender likes what best. I know both male and female players who were great at crafting and loved it just as I know both male and females who hated it and the same thing goes for the combat.
What about the freedom within a game for a player to make their own content? Isn't that what the crafters are really doing?
I like crafting - sure, it's click and "poof" there's your item. Heaven forbid I get my hands dirty playing with pixels! In EnB my self made content was to collect every single shield in the game. I enjoyed making stuff for other players but I didn't (and don't) necessarily enjoy socializing with said other players. I'm a loner but I enjoy having people around and hearing the buzz of them going on about their business. Heh - some people talk of being androgynous - I'm egarious/gregarious. LOL
Currently I'm suffering through WoW - waiting for friends to come to their senses and move on. I don't know how to describe how much I HATE dungeons without using swear words. So I make my own content through crafting for my guild and everybody's alts.
I used to play Ryzom - lots of self made content there but - and this is a huge BUT - they introduced politics into the game play and I hate that with almost the same level of cussing as I hate dungeons in WoW.
1. Let's be careful with that word "stereotyping."
To say that women in the aggregate tend to behave differently from men is not stereotyping. Groups tend to have characteristics in common; that's how we're able to identify them as groups. Similarly, that's how we're able to distinguish one group from another... and men and women, through some of their preferred behaviors, are identifiable as distinct groups of people. So to point out such differences where objective testing shows they really exist is not stereotyping, and it's not appropriate to use that word to argue that such differences don't exist.
The problem comes when we look at an individual person, assign that individual to a group, and conclude that the individual must have some or all of the attributes of the group. That's stereotyping, and anyone who's treated that way is right to be offended.
What this means with respect to MMORPG design is that there's not a problem with trying to identify gameplay features that women (or men, or teenagers, etc.) as a group tend to enjoy -- that's just good marketing. The problem would be if a game treated an individual gamer as merely the average example of some group. Imagine signing up for a game and, as part of that process, indicating that you're female... and the game automatically gives you the Cooking and Cleaning skills, while any man who signs up is automatically given the Hunting and Fighting skills. Assuming this game wasn't intended to be satirical, we'd all be irritated at being stereotyped, and rightly so.
The fact is that the variation among individuals of a group almost always swamps the variation between the average members of those groups. The average man and the average woman may vary in some specific amount on some specific behavioral index, but any two individual women may vary by considerably more. Which means that you can't assume that any individual woman is probably going to be just like the (notional) average woman. A lot of women in the aggregate will tend toward the average, but you can't assume that an individual will. The only decent way to treat an individual person is just that -- as an individual, with unique abilities, hopes, fears, desires, and plans.
For MMORPGs, that means it's OK to create content based on what the average member of some desirable group might want... but when individual people sign up to play your game, you need to let them choose the content they like, and not try to choose it for them based on what groups you think they belong to.
2. The set of women who currently play MMORPGs is a very, very, very restricted subset of all the women in the world, or even of the women with computers and modems.
In other words, it's probably not a good idea to look at the women who currently play MMORPGs and conclude that they're representative of all women, or of all women who might be willing to play online games if they heard of one that sounded worth trying. Suppose that many of the women who play today's MMORPGs say they enjoy the combat and other hypercompetitive gameplay -- how do we know that they represent the "typical" woman when that kind of gameplay is pretty much the only kind of game that's currently available? Should "games for women" all have features just like WoW because six million people happen to be playing it?
As I said in my first point above, I'm not opposed to trying to figure out "what women want." I simply don't think we'll get a good answer to that question just by looking at the women who currently play MMORPGs, because that's a group that's self-selecting based on the painfully limited gameplay in nearly all of today's online games.
Ultimately I suspect designers would do better to just consider personality types, which apply to everyone, when considering gameplay features.
Of course, then we have to have the debate over which personality models to use....
I'm a gurl gamer and I like to craft.... tailoring yes happens to usually be my favorite crafting profession...
I also play games where there is no crafting and enjoy FPS's also with the guys... and have a good male friend who will ALWAYS outlevel me in crafting no matter what game we're playing...
But the main reason I posted here was to say HI to OSILOA who I haven't seen since SWG... so
Originally posted by Rinna I'm a gurl gamer and I like to craft.... tailoring yes happens to usually be my favorite crafting profession... I also play games where there is no crafting and enjoy FPS's also with the guys... and have a good male friend who will ALWAYS outlevel me in crafting no matter what game we're playing... But the main reason I posted here was to say HI to OSILOA who I haven't seen since SWG... so HI OSI!!!! ***waves*** /hug
OMG! HI Rinna! How the heck are you? /hug Gawd it has been awhile since I have seen you! I am currently waiting to see how Dark and light turns out, I would like to be a tailor in that game. If not that game I am hoping they impliment tailoring into Aion or Heroes Journey HEHE!
I don't think this has anything to do with gender. Sure, there are girls who like crafting, but there are also girls who do not. And the same goes for boys. Do a survey, I'd be surprised if the ratio of girls who like crafting was much higher than guys.
Personally, I'm a girl gamer and I HATE crafting with a passion. I absolutely refuse to do it. My GUY friends do it for me, if I absolutely cannot afford to buy the finished product. I don't have anywhere near the patience or desire to waste my time in town collecting materials and making sure I have all the necessary items for a recipe.
Originally posted by osiloa Originally posted by Rinna I'm a gurl gamer and I like to craft.... tailoring yes happens to usually be my favorite crafting profession... I also play games where there is no crafting and enjoy FPS's also with the guys... and have a good male friend who will ALWAYS outlevel me in crafting no matter what game we're playing... But the main reason I posted here was to say HI to OSILOA who I haven't seen since SWG... so HI OSI!!!! ***waves*** /hug
OMG! HI Rinna! How the heck are you? /hug Gawd it has been awhile since I have seen you! I am currently waiting to see how Dark and light turns out, I would like to be a tailor in that game. If not that game I am hoping they impliment tailoring into Aion or Heroes Journey HEHE!
I've got my fingers crossed that Lord of the Rings Online or Vanguard with satisfy my crafting DT's... after SWG, nothing seems to scratch the itch... Currently I'm crafting in EQ2 but... /sigh I'll check out Hero's Journey also. I've been good good... same ole same ole
Dark and Light has not been getting Kudos, may want to read the boards before spending your money... check out the crafting highlights on the Vanguard board and LOTRO - links are in the forums here... worth a good read if you're looking for a comparable crafting game, unfortunately I think the awesome crafting system SWG gave us has gone the way of the dinosaurs
Originally posted by Rinna Originally posted by osiloa Originally posted by Rinna I'm a gurl gamer and I like to craft.... tailoring yes happens to usually be my favorite crafting profession... I also play games where there is no crafting and enjoy FPS's also with the guys... and have a good male friend who will ALWAYS out level me in crafting no matter what game we're playing... But the main reason I posted here was to say HI to OSILOA who I haven't seen since SWG... so HI OSI!!!! ***waves*** /hug
OMG! HI Rinna! How the heck are you? /hug Gawd it has been awhile since I have seen you! I am currently waiting to see how Dark and light turns out, I would like to be a tailor in that game. If not that game I am hoping they implement tailoring into Aion or Heroes Journey HEHE!
I've got my fingers crossed that Lord of the Rings Online or Vanguard with satisfy my crafting DT's... after SWG, nothing seems to scratch the itch... Currently I'm crafting in EQ2 but... /sigh I'll check out Hero's Journey also. I've been good good... same ole same ole
Dark and Light has not been getting Kudos, may want to read the boards before spending your money... check out the crafting highlights on the Vanguard board and LOTRO - links are in the forums here... worth a good read if you're looking for a comparable crafting game, unfortunately I think the awesome crafting system SWG gave us has gone the way of the dinosaurs
Let's keep in touch girl!!
Well Vanguard has teamed up with SOE so I don't want to even touch that game. Yes Dark and light is having major problems, but then what MMO does not have problems upon first release. I am hoping they fix it. The lord of the rings online, while the graphics look nice I just don't see that game being much fun. Now Aion and Heroes Journey , both of those look awesome! Pirates of the burning sea looks pretty good to. Yes We have to stay in touch! *waves*
Originally posted by osiloa Originally posted by Rinna Originally posted by osiloa Originally posted by Rinna I'm a gurl gamer and I like to craft.... tailoring yes happens to usually be my favorite crafting profession... I also play games where there is no crafting and enjoy FPS's also with the guys... and have a good male friend who will ALWAYS out level me in crafting no matter what game we're playing... But the main reason I posted here was to say HI to OSILOA who I haven't seen since SWG... so HI OSI!!!! ***waves*** /hug OMG! HI Rinna! How the heck are you? /hugGawd it has been awhile since I have seen you! I am currently waiting to see how Dark and light turns out, I would like to be a tailor in that game.If not that game I am hoping they implement tailoring into Aion or Heroes Journey HEHE!I've got my fingers crossed that Lord of the Rings Online or Vanguard with satisfy my crafting DT's... after SWG, nothing seems to scratch the itch... Currently I'm crafting in EQ2 but... /sigh I'll check out Hero's Journey also. I've been good good... same ole same ole Dark and Light has not been getting Kudos, may want to read the boards before spending your money... check out the crafting highlights on the Vanguard board and LOTRO - links are in the forums here... worth a good read if you're looking for a comparable crafting game, unfortunately I think the awesome crafting system SWG gave us has gone the way of the dinosaurs Let's keep in touch girl!! Well Vanguard has teamed up with SOE so I don't want to even touch that game. Yes Dark and light is having major problems, but then what MMO does not have problems upon first release. I am hoping they fix it. The lord of the rings online, while the graphics look nice I just don't see that game being much fun. Now Aion and Heroes Journey , both of those look awesome! Pirates of the burning sea looks pretty good to. Yes We have to stay in touch! *waves*
Wouldn't private messages be better? Since all that is completely off topic?
Comments
I agree with putting an end to the male vs female viewpoint and/or assigning game play to which gender likes what best. I know both male and female players who were great at crafting and loved it just as I know both male and females who hated it and the same thing goes for the combat.
What about the freedom within a game for a player to make their own content? Isn't that what the crafters are really doing?
I like crafting - sure, it's click and "poof" there's your item. Heaven forbid I get my hands dirty playing with pixels! In EnB my self made content was to collect every single shield in the game. I enjoyed making stuff for other players but I didn't (and don't) necessarily enjoy socializing with said other players. I'm a loner but I enjoy having people around and hearing the buzz of them going on about their business. Heh - some people talk of being androgynous - I'm egarious/gregarious. LOL
Currently I'm suffering through WoW - waiting for friends to come to their senses and move on. I don't know how to describe how much I HATE dungeons without using swear words. So I make my own content through crafting for my guild and everybody's alts.
I used to play Ryzom - lots of self made content there but - and this is a huge BUT - they introduced politics into the game play and I hate that with almost the same level of cussing as I hate dungeons in WoW.
I have hopes for LOTRO ... *sigh*
A couple of additional points:
1. Let's be careful with that word "stereotyping."
To say that women in the aggregate tend to behave differently from men is not stereotyping. Groups tend to have characteristics in common; that's how we're able to identify them as groups. Similarly, that's how we're able to distinguish one group from another... and men and women, through some of their preferred behaviors, are identifiable as distinct groups of people. So to point out such differences where objective testing shows they really exist is not stereotyping, and it's not appropriate to use that word to argue that such differences don't exist.
The problem comes when we look at an individual person, assign that individual to a group, and conclude that the individual must have some or all of the attributes of the group. That's stereotyping, and anyone who's treated that way is right to be offended.
What this means with respect to MMORPG design is that there's not a problem with trying to identify gameplay features that women (or men, or teenagers, etc.) as a group tend to enjoy -- that's just good marketing. The problem would be if a game treated an individual gamer as merely the average example of some group. Imagine signing up for a game and, as part of that process, indicating that you're female... and the game automatically gives you the Cooking and Cleaning skills, while any man who signs up is automatically given the Hunting and Fighting skills. Assuming this game wasn't intended to be satirical, we'd all be irritated at being stereotyped, and rightly so.
The fact is that the variation among individuals of a group almost always swamps the variation between the average members of those groups. The average man and the average woman may vary in some specific amount on some specific behavioral index, but any two individual women may vary by considerably more. Which means that you can't assume that any individual woman is probably going to be just like the (notional) average woman. A lot of women in the aggregate will tend toward the average, but you can't assume that an individual will. The only decent way to treat an individual person is just that -- as an individual, with unique abilities, hopes, fears, desires, and plans.
For MMORPGs, that means it's OK to create content based on what the average member of some desirable group might want... but when individual people sign up to play your game, you need to let them choose the content they like, and not try to choose it for them based on what groups you think they belong to.
2. The set of women who currently play MMORPGs is a very, very, very restricted subset of all the women in the world, or even of the women with computers and modems.
In other words, it's probably not a good idea to look at the women who currently play MMORPGs and conclude that they're representative of all women, or of all women who might be willing to play online games if they heard of one that sounded worth trying. Suppose that many of the women who play today's MMORPGs say they enjoy the combat and other hypercompetitive gameplay -- how do we know that they represent the "typical" woman when that kind of gameplay is pretty much the only kind of game that's currently available? Should "games for women" all have features just like WoW because six million people happen to be playing it?
As I said in my first point above, I'm not opposed to trying to figure out "what women want." I simply don't think we'll get a good answer to that question just by looking at the women who currently play MMORPGs, because that's a group that's self-selecting based on the painfully limited gameplay in nearly all of today's online games.
Ultimately I suspect designers would do better to just consider personality types, which apply to everyone, when considering gameplay features.
Of course, then we have to have the debate over which personality models to use....
--Flatfingers
I'm a gurl gamer and I like to craft.... tailoring yes happens to usually be my favorite crafting profession...
I also play games where there is no crafting and enjoy FPS's also with the guys... and have a good male friend who will ALWAYS outlevel me in crafting no matter what game we're playing...
But the main reason I posted here was to say HI to OSILOA who I haven't seen since SWG... so
HI OSI!!!! ***waves*** /hug
No bitchers.
Gawd it has been awhile since I have seen you!
I am currently waiting to see how Dark and light turns out, I would like to be a tailor in that game.
If not that game I am hoping they impliment tailoring into Aion or Heroes Journey HEHE!
I don't think this has anything to do with gender. Sure, there are girls who like crafting, but there are also girls who do not. And the same goes for boys. Do a survey, I'd be surprised if the ratio of girls who like crafting was much higher than guys.
Personally, I'm a girl gamer and I HATE crafting with a passion. I absolutely refuse to do it. My GUY friends do it for me, if I absolutely cannot afford to buy the finished product. I don't have anywhere near the patience or desire to waste my time in town collecting materials and making sure I have all the necessary items for a recipe.
Gawd it has been awhile since I have seen you!
I am currently waiting to see how Dark and light turns out, I would like to be a tailor in that game.
If not that game I am hoping they impliment tailoring into Aion or Heroes Journey HEHE!
I've got my fingers crossed that Lord of the Rings Online or Vanguard with satisfy my crafting DT's... after SWG, nothing seems to scratch the itch...
Currently I'm crafting in EQ2 but... /sigh 
I'll check out Hero's Journey also. I've been good good... same ole same ole
Dark and Light has not been getting Kudos, may want to read the boards before spending your money... check out the crafting highlights on the Vanguard board and LOTRO - links are in the forums here... worth a good read if you're looking for a comparable crafting game, unfortunately I think the awesome crafting system SWG gave us has gone the way of the dinosaurs
Let's keep in touch girl!!
No bitchers.
Gawd it has been awhile since I have seen you!
I am currently waiting to see how Dark and light turns out, I would like to be a tailor in that game.
If not that game I am hoping they implement tailoring into Aion or Heroes Journey HEHE!
I've got my fingers crossed that Lord of the Rings Online or Vanguard with satisfy my crafting DT's... after SWG, nothing seems to scratch the itch...
Currently I'm crafting in EQ2 but... /sigh 
I'll check out Hero's Journey also. I've been good good... same ole same ole
Dark and Light has not been getting Kudos, may want to read the boards before spending your money... check out the crafting highlights on the Vanguard board and LOTRO - links are in the forums here... worth a good read if you're looking for a comparable crafting game, unfortunately I think the awesome crafting system SWG gave us has gone the way of the dinosaurs
Let's keep in touch girl!!
Well Vanguard has teamed up with SOE so I don't want to even touch that game. Yes Dark and light is having major problems, but then what MMO does not have problems upon first release. I am hoping they fix it. The lord of the rings online, while the graphics look nice I just don't see that game being much fun. Now Aion and Heroes Journey , both of those look awesome! Pirates of the burning sea looks pretty good to. Yes We have to stay in touch! *waves*
Wouldn't private messages be better? Since all that is completely off topic?