could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Originally posted by baff Originally posted by Minsc Originally posted by baff
Double the current sub numbers for WoW and that will probably get you pretty close to boxes sold for WoW. The majority of those would be in NA and UK with the balance being bought by cafe's in Asia.
I'm going to enage in some more spurious guesstimating for laugh.
Wow grossed $292 million in the U.S. in 2005.
1 million players at $15 for 12 months = 180 million 112 million /box price of 50 = roughly 2 million.
I concur with your estimation. I was expecting the retention rate to be lower than that. I have no idea what it is in other games.
Satistically, I expect Continental Europe to match U.K. sales. and U.S. sales to roughly equal either of those two. If WoW sells proprotionally like other PC games. I think I read somewhere that China has an effective market of 386 million. I'd like to see what kind of a proportion of sales they represent.
A couple things wrong with your numbers...
Vivendi did 600M Euros in 2005 that is roughly $768M, North America contributed 53% of this number which equals roughly $445M. 49% of that money came from online games which equals $218M. In July of 2005 with 4M subs 1M was from NA. In January they were over 5.5M subs so lets assume they added another .75M over the holidays for a total of 1.75M. 1.75M x 15 = $26.25M which leaves us with $191.75M in revenue to account for. Vivendi probably made $35 off each box on average (remember retailers buy it for 1 price and send it for a different price) so if we divide $191.75M/$35 we get 5.5M units. Not bad retention for an MMO, what is really interesting is the number is categorized as "Online games and other" which would indicate that there is more than just WOW sales/subs in this number which would make the retention rate for US even lower!
Originally posted by apertotes what wow fanboys have yet to explain is the line between "most popular", "most played" and "most sold" game and "highest quality game", which is what rankings are about.
So in your opinion proof is in reviews/ratings? Ok fair enough...
According to GameRankings.com in the category Massively Multiplayer Online PC Games the #1 title is <<< drum roll, please ... >>>
#1 World of Warcraft Average Vote = 8.5 Average Score = 91.5%
#1 in unit sales, #1 in subscriptions, and #1 in reviews - ooks like WOW is the Filet Mignon of MMOs!
I'm not surprised if WoW's rating is decreasing.. I mean the end game is really crap.
But you have to admit WoW is a great game regardless. Level 1-60 is simply the best experience I ever had in a MMORPG... no other games can keep me hooked up and think of it all the time for months.
WoW has a solid foundation.. I just hope they fix whatever it is on the top.
Originally posted by apertotes what wow fanboys have yet to explain is the line between "most popular", "most played" and "most sold" game and "highest quality game", which is what rankings are about. rankings do not take into consideration sales or popularity. so, can any wow fanboy explain why "most popular, played, and sold game"="highest quality game"? just for thought, what is most popular, and sold drink on earth? is it the best drink? what is the most popular restaurant? is the best food served there? what are the most viewed movie on theaters last year? are they the best? who is the singer/band with most copies sold on the last years? are they the best singers/bands you can find on a music store? what's the most popular book these days and the one that sold more? is it the best book that you can find on a library? is diablo 2 a better RPG than Planescape Torment just because it sold many more copies and is far more popular? i will copy here the 10 top rated movies on IMDb Rank Rating Title Votes 1. 9.1 The Godfather (1972) 166,573 2. 9.0 The Shawshank Redemption (1994) 200,515 3. 8.9 The Godfather: Part II (1974) 95,032 4. 8.8 The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King (2003) 150,713 5. 8.8 Casablanca (1942) 82,885 6. 8.8 Schindler's List (1993) 123,255 7. 8.7 Shichinin no samurai (1954) 44,045 8. 8.7 Star Wars: Episode V - The Empire Strikes Back (1980) 132,756 9. 8.7 Buono, il brutto, il cattivo, Il (1966) 44,698 10. 8.7 Pulp Fiction (1994) 174,144 now i will copy the 10 top sales (all time, worlwide) Rank Title Worldwide Box Office 1. Titanic (1997) $1,835,300,000 2. The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King (2003) $1,129,219,252 3. Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone (2001) $968,600,000 4. Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace (1999) $922,379,000 5. The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers (2002) $921,600,000 6. Jurassic Park (1993) $919,700,000 7. Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire (2005) $892,194,397 8. Shrek 2 (2004) $880,871,036 9. Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets (2002) $866,300,000 10. Finding Nemo (2003) $865,000,000 now, you can tell, hey, The Godfather is a 30 year movie, so it is not going to be on the list cause back then there were less theaters, and it was cheaper to buy a ticket. great, but at least people would still buy it now, or rent it from blockbuster. 28 May Top 50 United States Video Rentals for the week ending 4 June 2006 Rank Prev Rank Title Days This Week Rental Gross Buy from Amazon.com 1. New Date Movie (2006) 5 $9.58M $9.58M Buy 2. New Freedomland (2006) 5 $8.76M $8.76M Buy 3. 1 Cheaper by the Dozen 2 (2005) 12 $6.34M $13.6M Buy 4. 2 The Ringer (2005) 19 $5.44M $19.7M Buy 5. 3 When a Stranger Calls (2006) 19 $5.01M $18.3M Buy 6. 4 Munich (2005) 26 $4.11M $24.1M Buy 7. 10 Rumor Has It... (2005) 26 $3.92M $18.4M Buy 8. 6 The Family Stone (2005) 33 $3.88M $28.9M Buy 9. 7 Transamerica (2005) 12 $3.78M $8.13M Buy 10. 9 Last Holiday (2006) 33 $3.71M $25.1M Buy as you see, all of them are great movies so, please, someone explain me the line between 6'5 million suscribers and "quality game"
you cant be serious right? you just used current rentals to somehow disprove WoW being a good game? people dont go to blockbuster to rent old movies they go to get new releases they felt werent worth the money to go to a theater to see. congrats on wasting all that tme tho and wow'ing that one person with useless numbers.
the ratings here are meaningless. i'd bet the staff would admit to it. in 2 years or whatever of coming here i have never once bothered to look at them. its like any other online poll
thats not even to mention how worthless MMORPG reviews are in general. go look up some AC2 reviews. how many people still play it? oh right it was canned.
Originally posted by baff 6.5 million people find the quality of this game so high that they are preapred to vote with their wallets. And each month they cast the same vote again. At anytime they believe the game to be not so high quality, they will stop subscribing. The number of products sold is a good indication that it is deemed to be of quality or value. If the same product is resold to the same people each month, you can bet they are not dissatisfied with it. None of these things make one game better than another or objectively prove WoW's worth. It does however provide some pretty solid evidence to support that thesis. It is clear that 6.5 million people believe WoW to be a quality game. At £10 a vote, their opinions have a gravitas not found on any free forum poll.
can you say that anybody that regularly stops at McDonald's and grabs a BigMac and a Coca Cola thinks that they are quality food&drink? i bet most people spend more money every month on MCDonald's/Burguer King/Pizza Hut/Insert your favorite fast food restaurant here than on MMORPGs, yet nobody would claim that they are quality food.
you know how many people keep drinking Coca Cola time after time? do you think every time they buy a can they think "yeah, this is a really quality drink!!"
you can say that it is what they want, what they like, or what they prefer, but not that they believe that mcdonalds is the best place to eat.
so, 6'5 million people want to play and pay for WoW. that only tell me that a big majority of MMORPG players, prefer to play WoW than any other game, but that doesnt mean it is better than other games, or even that they think it is better. it is just what they want to play, and i dare to say, it is what they want to play for a short time (2 months average). hell, 2 months, i play more to my single player games than that.
anybody saying that 6'5 million players is an indication of quality is making a huge leap.
some of you people have serious issues. only have to click 1 thread to remember why these forums are so worthless. anyone comparing mcdonalds to a hobby is making a serious leap.
so because you only played wow for 2 months everyone plays wow for 2 months? or is that a number you pull out your ass? how can people seriously type this junk out and feel good about themselves? your opinion is yours alone.
simple fact is more people enjoy WoW then any other MMORPG on the market. whether or not you enjoy it is irrelevant. accept it and grow up. WoW didnt kill your dog.
can you say that anybody that regularly stops at McDonald's and grabs a BigMac and a Coca Cola thinks that they are quality food&drink? i bet most people spend more money every month on MCDonald's/Burguer King/Pizza Hut/Insert your favorite fast food restaurant here than on MMORPGs, yet nobody would claim that they are quality food.
you know how many people keep drinking Coca Cola time after time? do you think every time they buy a can they think "yeah, this is a really quality drink!!"
you can say that it is what they want, what they like, or what they prefer, but not that they believe that mcdonalds is the best place to eat.
so, 6'5 million people want to play and pay for WoW. that only tell me that a big majority of MMORPG players, prefer to play WoW than any other game, but that doesnt mean it is better than other games, or even that they think it is better. it is just what they want to play, and i dare to say, it is what they want to play for a short time (2 months average). hell, 2 months, i play more to my single player games than that.
anybody saying that 6'5 million players is an indication of quality is making a huge leap.
I think Coca Cola is a quality drink. Coca Cola was the very name I had in mind to use an example.
It tastes the same every time, and I don't just drink it because it is advertised on T.V. It has high a very production value. Coca Cola is a premium priced soft drink. People buy it because they like it, and they pay extra for the quality, instead of buying unbranded supermarket cola.
Macdonalds is a value buy. It's cheap and very good for the money. it has a certain amount of quality, but does not compare so readily to Coke and WoW because it is not aimed at the premium market, in my opinion
Where do you get your retention figures of 2 months? My best guess to date has been 6. But I was just guessing based on sloppy maths.
Vivendi did 600M Euros in 2005 that is roughly $768M, North America contributed 53% of this number which equals roughly $445M. 49% of that money came from online games which equals $218M. In July of 2005 with 4M subs 1M was from NA. In January they were over 5.5M subs so lets assume they added another .75M over the holidays for a total of 1.75M. 1.75M x 15 = $26.25M which leaves us with $191.75M in revenue to account for. Vivendi probably made $35 off each box on average (remember retailers buy it for 1 price and send it for a different price) so if we divide $191.75M/$35 we get 5.5M units. Not bad retention for an MMO, what is really interesting is the number is categorized as "Online games and other" which would indicate that there is more than just WOW sales/subs in this number which would make the retention rate for US even lower!
Thanks for the correction. My 292 figure turns out to be total spam as I completely mis-read the article. Vivendi also sell Half life 2.
Originally posted by Fenrir767 Well just because a lot of people bought the game and play the game doesn't mean its great. WoW is a reallly well thought out and put together game but it has its problems and after being out for awhile now with the expansion still not in sight and problems that were plaguing the game a year ago still there such as raiders vs non raiders the insane pvp grind. People have just had enough so of course people are leaving reevaluating what they thought of the game. Vivendi has actually told Kaplan to fix this raid or die mentality with Burning Crusade because they are losing more people than are coming in lately.
The expansion is due out this Christmas.
I see no sign that they are losing people whatsoever. Every quarter since launch the subscribership has continued to rise.
Expect the return of millions of players this December. I fully expect WoW subs to increase by at least 50%.
Originally posted by baff Originally posted by Fenrir767 Well just because a lot of people bought the game and play the game doesn't mean its great. WoW is a reallly well thought out and put together game but it has its problems and after being out for awhile now with the expansion still not in sight and problems that were plaguing the game a year ago still there such as raiders vs non raiders the insane pvp grind. People have just had enough so of course people are leaving reevaluating what they thought of the game. Vivendi has actually told Kaplan to fix this raid or die mentality with Burning Crusade because they are losing more people than are coming in lately.
The expansion is due out this Christmas.
I see no sign that they are losing people whatsoever. Every quarter since launch the subscribership has continued to rise.
Expect the return of millions of players this December. I fully expect WoW subs to increase by at least 50%.
Eventually (3-4 years from now) it's going to start losing subscribers, then Blizzard is going to actually focus on the market they originally owned, real time strategy games. Meh.
so because you only played wow for 2 months everyone plays wow for 2 months? or is that a number you pull out your ass? how can people seriously type this junk out and feel good about themselves? your opinion is yours alone.
simple fact is more people enjoy WoW then any other MMORPG on the market. whether or not you enjoy it is irrelevant. accept it and grow up. WoW didnt kill your dog.
Actually, the 2 month retention is a figure determined by market analysts based on comparing the box sales of WoW to the Number of Concurrent subscribers it has. It's pretty easily documented since both their box sales and their subscriber numbers are released as part of their annual reports. The average retention rate for WoW players (not EVERYONE, the AVERAGE) is 2 months. That includes people who buy it and never subscribe and people who buy it and play for 2 months and people who buy it and play longer. It's the *average*.
I agree with you that more people play and enjoy WoW than any other MMORPG on the market. That doesn't make it the "Best" MMORPG on the market, however. That is entirely subjective. It does, however, make it the most popular MMORPG on the market.
I wouldn't get too tied up into the 'rating' of the games here (or anywhere else). At this point in it's life more people have quit playing WoW than are currently playing WoW. It's just a fact that eventually the people who have STOPPED playing outnumber the people currently playing. I mean, if you think about it... with an *average* of 2 months retention and the fact that the game is 1.5 years old that's 10 cycles of players (average). Only 2 cycles would currently be playing the game (on average) so that's a heck of a lot of FORMER WoW players that have moved on to some other game. Typically when someone "moves on" they rate whatever they've moved to higher and lower their ratings of their previous game.
So WoW's ratings are starting to slide. It's not a big deal, really. I wouldn't sweat it. It's a good game. It continues to be the most popular MMO on the market and it's market share isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
You know you think all the people who were like OMGWTFBBQ YOU CAN'T PROVEZ IT. Are too lazy to search for any information themselves... sigh public schools i tell ya.
I quit wow because it was boring and frankly not that interesting once i got my shaman to 60. I still feel like playing it occassionally. But it is a good game. And i love how people say "better games on the market" Ha don't make me laugh. Whats a better game? SWG? FFXI? L2? DDO!?! i'm really not seeing many better....
Guild wars to some, but thats a corpg(could be labeled a mmorpg, and noone should argue its not. but even their website says its a corpg.)
And Eve to some.
Heres what i don't understand. If you can't judge a game based on numbers, and you can't judge a game based on opinions? What are you supposed to judge a game on? It's system? But isn't comparing systems just comparing opinions, because to you a system may be awesome, and to others it may be very poor.
Numbers are the saftest way to judge a game. If theres were only 2 million active accounts on wow from the entire world. It's still WAY more then eve.
Why is it that blizzard has to keep opening more and more servers? Why do they have to open servers and have multiple servers migrate to it to make the others life more bearable. Why are there still queues on some servers?
Honestly people stop looking through jaded glasses. Numbers don't lie. A bad game doesn't sell that much. Period. End of story. A good game does not necessarily sell. Thats why you can judge massive sells as it being a popular/good game. And you can't judge a low selling game as being bad. The worlds not black and white like that.
WoW and all the other top sellers are GREAT, AWESOME games.
But does it being good, or it being awesome have anything to do with you liking it? Everything is just personal opinion.
You can HATE a good game. You can LOVE a bad game.
Well said Bladin But I would rank EQ2 as equally as good, if not slightly better than WoW from an objective standpoint. From a personal standpoint I like EQ2 worlds better than WoW (Though I currently play neither). I think DAOC is more fun than both of them. EVE is better than both of them as well... and I have more fun in Guild Wars than them as well (though that's partly because I don't pay a monthly fee for it. If I did my feelings would be very different about Guild Wars ) Price has a great deal to do with why I like that game so much
Bottom line:
"Best" is subjective. 1 person's "best game" is another person's "garbage".
Otherwise there would only ever be like 1 or 2 MMO's on the market that anyone played
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Originally posted by baff 6.5 million people find the quality of this game so high that they are preapred to vote with their wallets. And each month they cast the same vote again. At anytime they believe the game to be not so high quality, they will stop subscribing. The number of products sold is a good indication that it is deemed to be of quality or value. If the same product is resold to the same people each month, you can bet they are not dissatisfied with it. None of these things make one game better than another or objectively prove WoW's worth. It does however provide some pretty solid evidence to support that thesis. It is clear that 6.5 million people believe WoW to be a quality game. At £10 a vote, their opinions have a gravitas not found on any free forum poll.
Prove that it is 6.5 million , i havn't seen Blizzard release any figures in several months. Numbers sold in blizzards case is probably due more to the following they had from Diablo/Warcraft/Starcraft. Yes I agree WoW is a fun game 1 - 60 but it quckly becomes too much of more of the same. Numbers are not an indication of greatness the top selling cars for example are not great not many people dream of owning a camry or an accord most people would prefer something more exotic if given the means. Wow (completly) fills a niche market.
Its a good game for newcomers to get used to MMORPGs but it is not great, to be great Blizzard would have had to followed up on their Beta promises , Housing/Heroes meaningful PvP (including DK&HK allocation as per their own game guide) and many other amended or broken functions.
At launch had potential now its just a product of a cynical corporation determined to get the biggest return for the smallest outlay Vivendi meet SoE, SoE meet Vivendi.
Yes I am a little bitter, at launch it was the first game in a while to give me the same feeling as Daoc ,of wanting to be part of the world. But the poor balance, lack of depth in crafting, PvP , adventuring and the developers seeming instance that they are the only ones who know what to do finally cured me of my addicition with the game after 18 months and 5 lvl 60 alts holding on in the hope that they would put depth in to the same, which never appeared. Plus their unwillingness to put out fires (Is outland mandatory PvP or Not being one) or even share much in the way of information with itss subscribers have stopped me believing that Blizzard are going to change in anyway.
I'd say i'd never buy another Blizzard product but since they only product they have active (Nothing on the In development site since Ghost was canned), its an empty statement.
Currently i'm looking for a new home , there are several up and coming priojects in the next 6 months, they wont be as big as Blizzard, and I'm thankful of that If I had regrets at leaving Wow (Which I Did), I do not miss one Iota they community in game or on the boards which is childish and xenophobic to the extreme.
Strangely enough apart from Daoc the one other game that had an excellent community that i've played is Horizons, sure its dated and had problems from the start but I played i for just short of a year from launch and had a good time there.
You know you think all the people who were like OMGWTFBBQ YOU CAN'T PROVEZ IT. Are too lazy to search for any information themselves... sigh public schools i tell ya.
I quit wow because it was boring and frankly not that interesting once i got my shaman to 60. I still feel like playing it occassionally. But it is a good game. And i love how people say "better games on the market" Ha don't make me laugh. Whats a better game? SWG? FFXI? L2? DDO!?! i'm really not seeing many better....
Guild wars to some, but thats a corpg(could be labeled a mmorpg, and noone should argue its not. but even their website says its a corpg.)
And Eve to some.
Heres what i don't understand. If you can't judge a game based on numbers, and you can't judge a game based on opinions? What are you supposed to judge a game on? It's system? But isn't comparing systems just comparing opinions, because to you a system may be awesome, and to others it may be very poor.
Numbers are the saftest way to judge a game. If theres were only 2 million active accounts on wow from the entire world. It's still WAY more then eve.
Why is it that blizzard has to keep opening more and more servers? Why do they have to open servers and have multiple servers migrate to it to make the others life more bearable. Why are there still queues on some servers?
Honestly people stop looking through jaded glasses. Numbers don't lie. A bad game doesn't sell that much. Period. End of story. A good game does not necessarily sell. Thats why you can judge massive sells as it being a popular/good game. And you can't judge a low selling game as being bad. The worlds not black and white like that.
WoW and all the other top sellers are GREAT, AWESOME games.
But does it being good, or it being awesome have anything to do with you liking it? Everything is just personal opinion.
You can HATE a good game. You can LOVE a bad game.
Prove that it is 6.5 million , i havn't seen Blizzard release any figures in several months.
F.F.S.
Launched in November 2004, World of Warcraft has quickly become the world's most popular MMORPG, with a worldwide customer base of more than 6.5 million players. For more information on World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade, visit the official website at www.worldofwarcraft.com. Additional news, including details on the highly anticipated beta-test and expected release dates for each region, will be announced there in the coming months.
World of Warcraft's Customer Definition World of Warcraft customers include individuals who have paid a subscription fee or purchased a prepaid card to play World of Warcraft, as well as those who have purchased the installation box bundled with one free month access. Internet Game Room players that have accessed the game over the last thirty days are also counted as customers. The above definition excludes all players under free promotional subscriptions, expired or cancelled subscriptions, and expired pre-paid cards. Customers in licensees' territories are defined along the same rules.
Originally posted by Parsifal57 Originally posted by baff 6.5 million people find the quality of this game so high that they are preapred to vote with their wallets. And each month they cast the same vote again. At anytime they believe the game to be not so high quality, they will stop subscribing. The number of products sold is a good indication that it is deemed to be of quality or value. If the same product is resold to the same people each month, you can bet they are not dissatisfied with it. None of these things make one game better than another or objectively prove WoW's worth. It does however provide some pretty solid evidence to support that thesis. It is clear that 6.5 million people believe WoW to be a quality game. At £10 a vote, their opinions have a gravitas not found on any free forum poll.
Prove that it is 6.5 million , i havn't seen Blizzard release any figures in several months. Numbers sold in blizzards case is probably due more to the following they had from Diablo/Warcraft/Starcraft. Yes I agree WoW is a fun game 1 - 60 but it quckly becomes too much of more of the same. Numbers are not an indication of greatness the top selling cars for example are not great not many people dream of owning a camry or an accord most people would prefer something more exotic if given the means. Wow (completly) fills a niche market.
Ermm.... Why should he have to prove it? It's in their Annual friggen report. Go look it up. However, 6.5 million people aren't "voting" "over and over again". The game has an average retention of about 2 months (industry analysts determined this by analyzing box sales verses subscriber numbers. Again... go look it up) So a LOT of people have bought and played WoW. Some stayed... Some left... but LOTS of people (a hell of a lot more than 6.5 million) have bought the game and played for at least 2 months. That doesn't mean it's the 'best' game, however, it just means it's the most popular.
Its a good game for newcomers to get used to MMORPGs but it is not great, to be great Blizzard would have had to followed up on their Beta promises , Housing/Heroes meaningful PvP (including DK&HK allocation as per their own game guide) and many other amended or broken functions.
Agree with this statement. But I don't think it's got all that many "broken" functions. Just lots of things they should have implemented but haven't. It's still got potential... but that's all it is. And the fact that it took them 2 bloody years to come out with an expansion is just apalling. And, no, the PVP changes early last year don't count. THOSE were supposed to be in at release.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Originally posted by Bladin sNumbers are the saftest way to judge a game. If theres were only 2 million active accounts on wow from the entire world. Numbers don't lie. A bad game doesn't sell that much. Period. End of story. A good game does not necessarily sell. Thats why you can judge massive sells as it being a popular/good game. And you can't judge a low selling game as being bad. The worlds not black and white like that.WoW and all the other top sellers are GREAT, AWESOME games.But does it being good, or it being awesome have anything to do with you liking it? Everything is just personal opinion.You can HATE a good game.You can LOVE a bad game.HATE=/=badLOVE=/=good.
i just dont agree. i dont agree that 3 Harry Potter movies are on the 10 best movies of the last 15 years. and also the Phantom Menace. i mean, the sold way way way more than Pulp Fiction, Memento, Forrest Gump, Braveheart, Life is beautiful, Fight Club, 12 Monkeys... so, they must be better movies. that is your reasoning to say WoW is the best game.
i think Phantom Menace was the worst movie i've seen on many years, but is the 4th most sold.
i think that wow is not one of the best 10 MMORPGs, and sales proof it
pd: now, if you want to convince me that you liked Phantom Menace, and you think Harry Potter movies and Shrek 2 are some of the best movies of the last 15 years, give up, you wont.
pd2: oh yeah, and Da Vinci Code must be a great book, right?
And, no, the PVP changes early last year don't count. THOSE were supposed to be in at release.
that is actually the main selling reason that my friends and i pre-ordered the game -- for the pvp. yeah, that was a letdown to see it wasn't in the game for a looooooooong time to come.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Originally posted by Elnator Ermm.... Why should he have to prove it? It's in their Annual friggen report. Go look it up.
Can't find any annual reports at either Blizzard or Vivendi's website, do you have them sent to you direct, or are they posted somewhere anyone can see?.
Originally posted by Pride7 Originally posted by apertotes what wow fanboys have yet to explain is the line between "most popular", "most played" and "most sold" game and "highest quality game", which is what rankings are about.
So in your opinion proof is in reviews/ratings? Ok fair enough...
According to GameRankings.com in the category Massively Multiplayer Online PC Games the #1 title is <<< drum roll, please ... >>>
#1 World of Warcraft Average Vote = 8.5 Average Score = 91.5%
#1 in unit sales, #1 in subscriptions, and #1 in reviews - ooks like WOW is the Filet Mignon of MMOs!
Originally posted by baff Originally posted by Elnator Ermm.... Why should he have to prove it? It's in their Annual friggen report. Go look it up.
Can't find any annual reports at either Blizzard or Vivendi's website, do you have them sent to you direct, or are they posted somewhere anyone can see?.
Google is your friend. I can't remember the website I found them on anymore... I got curious once... it's amazing what they report. NCSOFT does the same thing, by the way. It wasn't on either of their websites. It was on a stock reports website... can't remember which one now.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
ummm... when did i ever say a high selling game is better then ones that don't sell high. I never implied that. I feel its entirely possible for a high selling game to have lower selling games which are better.
What i was saying was that the ones that sell massively are great games.
And ones that don't sell massively CAN still be great.
Originally posted by Gameloading Originally posted by Pride7 Originally posted by apertotes what wow fanboys have yet to explain is the line between "most popular", "most played" and "most sold" game and "highest quality game", which is what rankings are about.
So in your opinion proof is in reviews/ratings? Ok fair enough...
According to GameRankings.com in the category Massively Multiplayer Online PC Games the #1 title is <<< drum roll, please ... >>>
#1 World of Warcraft Average Vote = 8.5 Average Score = 91.5%
#1 in unit sales, #1 in subscriptions, and #1 in reviews - ooks like WOW is the Filet Mignon of MMOs!
Quoted for the damn truth!
If it's fillet Mignon of MMO's I'm becoming a vegetarian. Seriously.... Being the most popular doesn't make it the "best". Blech.... Fillet Mignon my arse.
As stated many many many many times. "BEST" is subjective. All 'ratings' are is a popularity contest. It has very little to do with actual 'quality'. Other than as an anecdotal indicator. The fact that WoW is so popular indicates that it's a good MMO (and it is). But it's not the "BEST" MMO... not in my opinion anyway. I think EQ2, EVE and DAOC are all "Better" MMORPG's though not as popular.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Comments
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
I'm going to enage in some more spurious guesstimating for laugh.
Wow grossed $292 million in the U.S. in 2005.
1 million players at $15 for 12 months = 180 million 112 million /box price of 50 = roughly 2 million.
I concur with your estimation. I was expecting the retention rate to be lower than that. I have no idea what it is in other games.
Satistically, I expect Continental Europe to match U.K. sales. and U.S. sales to roughly equal either of those two. If WoW sells proprotionally like other PC games. I think I read somewhere that China has an effective market of 386 million. I'd like to see what kind of a proportion of sales they represent.
A couple things wrong with your numbers...
Vivendi did 600M Euros in 2005 that is roughly $768M, North America contributed 53% of this number which equals roughly $445M. 49% of that money came from online games which equals $218M. In July of 2005 with 4M subs 1M was from NA. In January they were over 5.5M subs so lets assume they added another .75M over the holidays for a total of 1.75M. 1.75M x 15 = $26.25M which leaves us with $191.75M in revenue to account for. Vivendi probably made $35 off each box on average (remember retailers buy it for 1 price and send it for a different price) so if we divide $191.75M/$35 we get 5.5M units. Not bad retention for an MMO, what is really interesting is the number is categorized as "Online games and other" which would indicate that there is more than just WOW sales/subs in this number which would make the retention rate for US even lower!
So in your opinion proof is in reviews/ratings? Ok fair enough...
According to GameRankings.com in the category Massively Multiplayer Online PC Games the #1 title is <<< drum roll, please ... >>>
#1 World of Warcraft Average Vote = 8.5 Average Score = 91.5%
#1 in unit sales, #1 in subscriptions, and #1 in reviews - ooks like WOW is the Filet Mignon of MMOs!
What a long thread!
I'm not surprised if WoW's rating is decreasing.. I mean the end game is really crap.
But you have to admit WoW is a great game regardless. Level 1-60 is simply the best experience I ever had in a MMORPG... no other games can keep me hooked up and think of it all the time for months.
WoW has a solid foundation.. I just hope they fix whatever it is on the top.
the ratings here are meaningless. i'd bet the staff would admit to it. in 2 years or whatever of coming here i have never once bothered to look at them. its like any other online poll
thats not even to mention how worthless MMORPG reviews are in general. go look up some AC2 reviews. how many people still play it? oh right it was canned.
can you say that anybody that regularly stops at McDonald's and grabs a BigMac and a Coca Cola thinks that they are quality food&drink? i bet most people spend more money every month on MCDonald's/Burguer King/Pizza Hut/Insert your favorite fast food restaurant here than on MMORPGs, yet nobody would claim that they are quality food.
you know how many people keep drinking Coca Cola time after time? do you think every time they buy a can they think "yeah, this is a really quality drink!!"
you can say that it is what they want, what they like, or what they prefer, but not that they believe that mcdonalds is the best place to eat.
so, 6'5 million people want to play and pay for WoW. that only tell me that a big majority of MMORPG players, prefer to play WoW than any other game, but that doesnt mean it is better than other games, or even that they think it is better. it is just what they want to play, and i dare to say, it is what they want to play for a short time (2 months average). hell, 2 months, i play more to my single player games than that.
anybody saying that 6'5 million players is an indication of quality is making a huge leap.
some of you people have serious issues. only have to click 1 thread to remember why these forums are so worthless. anyone comparing mcdonalds to a hobby is making a serious leap.
so because you only played wow for 2 months everyone plays wow for 2 months? or is that a number you pull out your ass? how can people seriously type this junk out and feel good about themselves? your opinion is yours alone.
simple fact is more people enjoy WoW then any other MMORPG on the market. whether or not you enjoy it is irrelevant. accept it and grow up. WoW didnt kill your dog.
can you say that anybody that regularly stops at McDonald's and grabs a BigMac and a Coca Cola thinks that they are quality food&drink? i bet most people spend more money every month on MCDonald's/Burguer King/Pizza Hut/Insert your favorite fast food restaurant here than on MMORPGs, yet nobody would claim that they are quality food.
you know how many people keep drinking Coca Cola time after time? do you think every time they buy a can they think "yeah, this is a really quality drink!!"
you can say that it is what they want, what they like, or what they prefer, but not that they believe that mcdonalds is the best place to eat.
so, 6'5 million people want to play and pay for WoW. that only tell me that a big majority of MMORPG players, prefer to play WoW than any other game, but that doesnt mean it is better than other games, or even that they think it is better. it is just what they want to play, and i dare to say, it is what they want to play for a short time (2 months average). hell, 2 months, i play more to my single player games than that.
anybody saying that 6'5 million players is an indication of quality is making a huge leap.
I think Coca Cola is a quality drink. Coca Cola was the very name I had in mind to use an example.
It tastes the same every time, and I don't just drink it because it is advertised on T.V. It has high a very production value. Coca Cola is a premium priced soft drink. People buy it because they like it, and they pay extra for the quality, instead of buying unbranded supermarket cola.
Macdonalds is a value buy. It's cheap and very good for the money. it has a certain amount of quality, but does not compare so readily to Coke and WoW because it is not aimed at the premium market, in my opinion
Where do you get your retention figures of 2 months? My best guess to date has been 6. But I was just guessing based on sloppy maths.
A couple things wrong with your numbers...
Vivendi did 600M Euros in 2005 that is roughly $768M, North America contributed 53% of this number which equals roughly $445M. 49% of that money came from online games which equals $218M. In July of 2005 with 4M subs 1M was from NA. In January they were over 5.5M subs so lets assume they added another .75M over the holidays for a total of 1.75M. 1.75M x 15 = $26.25M which leaves us with $191.75M in revenue to account for. Vivendi probably made $35 off each box on average (remember retailers buy it for 1 price and send it for a different price) so if we divide $191.75M/$35 we get 5.5M units. Not bad retention for an MMO, what is really interesting is the number is categorized as "Online games and other" which would indicate that there is more than just WOW sales/subs in this number which would make the retention rate for US even lower!
Thanks for the correction. My 292 figure turns out to be total spam as I completely mis-read the article. Vivendi also sell Half life 2.
The expansion is due out this Christmas.
I see no sign that they are losing people whatsoever. Every quarter since launch the subscribership has continued to rise.
Expect the return of millions of players this December. I fully expect WoW subs to increase by at least 50%.
The expansion is due out this Christmas.
I see no sign that they are losing people whatsoever. Every quarter since launch the subscribership has continued to rise.
Expect the return of millions of players this December. I fully expect WoW subs to increase by at least 50%.
Eventually (3-4 years from now) it's going to start losing subscribers, then Blizzard is going to actually focus on the market they originally owned, real time strategy games. Meh.
Actually, the 2 month retention is a figure determined by market analysts based on comparing the box sales of WoW to the Number of Concurrent subscribers it has. It's pretty easily documented since both their box sales and their subscriber numbers are released as part of their annual reports. The average retention rate for WoW players (not EVERYONE, the AVERAGE) is 2 months. That includes people who buy it and never subscribe and people who buy it and play for 2 months and people who buy it and play longer. It's the *average*.
I agree with you that more people play and enjoy WoW than any other MMORPG on the market. That doesn't make it the "Best" MMORPG on the market, however. That is entirely subjective. It does, however, make it the most popular MMORPG on the market.
I wouldn't get too tied up into the 'rating' of the games here (or anywhere else). At this point in it's life more people have quit playing WoW than are currently playing WoW. It's just a fact that eventually the people who have STOPPED playing outnumber the people currently playing. I mean, if you think about it... with an *average* of 2 months retention and the fact that the game is 1.5 years old that's 10 cycles of players (average). Only 2 cycles would currently be playing the game (on average) so that's a heck of a lot of FORMER WoW players that have moved on to some other game. Typically when someone "moves on" they rate whatever they've moved to higher and lower their ratings of their previous game.
So WoW's ratings are starting to slide. It's not a big deal, really. I wouldn't sweat it. It's a good game. It continues to be the most popular MMO on the market and it's market share isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/711/711547p1.html
You know you think all the people who were like OMGWTFBBQ YOU CAN'T PROVEZ IT. Are too lazy to search for any information themselves... sigh public schools i tell ya.
I quit wow because it was boring and frankly not that interesting once i got my shaman to 60. I still feel like playing it occassionally. But it is a good game. And i love how people say "better games on the market" Ha don't make me laugh. Whats a better game? SWG? FFXI? L2? DDO!?! i'm really not seeing many better....
Guild wars to some, but thats a corpg(could be labeled a mmorpg, and noone should argue its not. but even their website says its a corpg.)
And Eve to some.
Heres what i don't understand. If you can't judge a game based on numbers, and you can't judge a game based on opinions? What are you supposed to judge a game on? It's system? But isn't comparing systems just comparing opinions, because to you a system may be awesome, and to others it may be very poor.
Numbers are the saftest way to judge a game. If theres were only 2 million active accounts on wow from the entire world. It's still WAY more then eve.
Why is it that blizzard has to keep opening more and more servers? Why do they have to open servers and have multiple servers migrate to it to make the others life more bearable. Why are there still queues on some servers?
Honestly people stop looking through jaded glasses. Numbers don't lie. A bad game doesn't sell that much. Period. End of story. A good game does not necessarily sell. Thats why you can judge massive sells as it being a popular/good game. And you can't judge a low selling game as being bad. The worlds not black and white like that.
WoW and all the other top sellers are GREAT, AWESOME games.
But does it being good, or it being awesome have anything to do with you liking it? Everything is just personal opinion.
You can HATE a good game.
You can LOVE a bad game.
HATE=/=bad
LOVE=/=good.
Well said Bladin
But I would rank EQ2 as equally as good, if not slightly better than WoW from an objective standpoint. From a personal standpoint I like EQ2 worlds better than WoW (Though I currently play neither). I think DAOC is more fun than both of them. EVE is better than both of them as well... and I have more fun in Guild Wars than them as well (though that's partly because I don't pay a monthly fee for it. If I did my feelings would be very different about Guild Wars 
) Price has a great deal to do with why I like that game so much 
Bottom line:
"Best" is subjective. 1 person's "best game" is another person's "garbage".
Otherwise there would only ever be like 1 or 2 MMO's on the market that anyone played
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Its a good game for newcomers to get used to MMORPGs but it is not great, to be great Blizzard would have had to followed up on their Beta promises , Housing/Heroes meaningful PvP (including DK&HK allocation as per their own game guide) and many other amended or broken functions.
At launch had potential now its just a product of a cynical corporation determined to get the biggest return for the smallest outlay Vivendi meet SoE, SoE meet Vivendi.
Yes I am a little bitter, at launch it was the first game in a while to give me the same feeling as Daoc ,of wanting to be part of the world. But the poor balance, lack of depth in crafting, PvP , adventuring and the developers seeming instance that they are the only ones who know what to do finally cured me of my addicition with the game after 18 months and 5 lvl 60 alts holding on in the hope that they would put depth in to the same, which never appeared. Plus their unwillingness to put out fires (Is outland mandatory PvP or Not being one) or even share much in the way of information with itss subscribers have stopped me believing that Blizzard are going to change in anyway.
I'd say i'd never buy another Blizzard product but since they only product they have active (Nothing on the In development site since Ghost was canned), its an empty statement.
Currently i'm looking for a new home , there are several up and coming priojects in the next 6 months, they wont be as big as Blizzard, and I'm thankful of that If I had regrets at leaving Wow (Which I Did), I do not miss one Iota they community in game or on the boards which is childish and xenophobic to the extreme.
Strangely enough apart from Daoc the one other game that had an excellent community that i've played is Horizons, sure its dated and had problems from the start but I played i for just short of a year from launch and had a good time there.
I
F.F.S.
Launched in November 2004, World of Warcraft has quickly become the world's most popular MMORPG, with a worldwide customer base of more than 6.5 million players. For more information on World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade, visit the official website at www.worldofwarcraft.com. Additional news, including details on the highly anticipated beta-test and expected release dates for each region, will be announced there in the coming months.
World of Warcraft's Customer Definition
World of Warcraft customers include individuals who have paid a subscription fee or purchased a prepaid card to play World of Warcraft, as well as those who have purchased the installation box bundled with one free month access. Internet Game Room players that have accessed the game over the last thirty days are also counted as customers. The above definition excludes all players under free promotional subscriptions, expired or cancelled subscriptions, and expired pre-paid cards. Customers in licensees' territories are defined along the same rules.
http://www.blizzard.com/press/060510.shtml
Ermm.... Why should he have to prove it? It's in their Annual friggen report. Go look it up. However, 6.5 million people aren't "voting" "over and over again". The game has an average retention of about 2 months (industry analysts determined this by analyzing box sales verses subscriber numbers. Again... go look it up) So a LOT of people have bought and played WoW. Some stayed... Some left... but LOTS of people (a hell of a lot more than 6.5 million) have bought the game and played for at least 2 months. That doesn't mean it's the 'best' game, however, it just means it's the most popular. Agree with this statement. But I don't think it's got all that many "broken" functions. Just lots of things they should have implemented but haven't. It's still got potential... but that's all it is. And the fact that it took them 2 bloody years to come out with an expansion is just apalling. And, no, the PVP changes early last year don't count. THOSE were supposed to be in at release.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
i just dont agree. i dont agree that 3 Harry Potter movies are on the 10 best movies of the last 15 years. and also the Phantom Menace. i mean, the sold way way way more than Pulp Fiction, Memento, Forrest Gump, Braveheart, Life is beautiful, Fight Club, 12 Monkeys... so, they must be better movies. that is your reasoning to say WoW is the best game.
i think Phantom Menace was the worst movie i've seen on many years, but is the 4th most sold.
i think that wow is not one of the best 10 MMORPGs, and sales proof it
pd: now, if you want to convince me that you liked Phantom Menace, and you think Harry Potter movies and Shrek 2 are some of the best movies of the last 15 years, give up, you wont.
pd2: oh yeah, and Da Vinci Code must be a great book, right?
that is actually the main selling reason that my friends and i pre-ordered the game -- for the pvp. yeah, that was a letdown to see it wasn't in the game for a looooooooong time to come.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Can't find any annual reports at either Blizzard or Vivendi's website, do you have them sent to you direct, or are they posted somewhere anyone can see?.
So in your opinion proof is in reviews/ratings? Ok fair enough...
According to GameRankings.com in the category Massively Multiplayer Online PC Games the #1 title is <<< drum roll, please ... >>>
#1 World of Warcraft Average Vote = 8.5 Average Score = 91.5%
#1 in unit sales, #1 in subscriptions, and #1 in reviews - ooks like WOW is the Filet Mignon of MMOs!
Quoted for the damn truth!
Can't find any annual reports at either Blizzard or Vivendi's website, do you have them sent to you direct, or are they posted somewhere anyone can see?.
Google is your friend. I can't remember the website I found them on anymore... I got curious once... it's amazing what they report. NCSOFT does the same thing, by the way. It wasn't on either of their websites. It was on a stock reports website... can't remember which one now.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
I've seen NCsofts. They actaully post their subscribtions numbers which is pretty rare, if not unique.
ummm... when did i ever say a high selling game is better then ones that don't sell high. I never implied that. I feel its entirely possible for a high selling game to have lower selling games which are better.
What i was saying was that the ones that sell massively are great games.
And ones that don't sell massively CAN still be great.
and about your movies..
your forrest gump - http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hv&cf=info&id=1800217371
harry potters-
http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hv&cf=info&id=1808475610
http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hv&cf=info&id=1808404334
http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hv&cf=info&id=1807858489
http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hv&cf=info&id=1802813191
it has a higher box office revenue
And the harry potters are still reviewed as great movies. Again its all personal opinion. But as far as video games good
Massive sells on a monthly basis=great
High selling=good/bad
Normal selling=good/bad
bad selling=good/bad
horrible selling=good/bad
So in your opinion proof is in reviews/ratings? Ok fair enough...
According to GameRankings.com in the category Massively Multiplayer Online PC Games the #1 title is <<< drum roll, please ... >>>
#1 World of Warcraft Average Vote = 8.5 Average Score = 91.5%
#1 in unit sales, #1 in subscriptions, and #1 in reviews - ooks like WOW is the Filet Mignon of MMOs!
Quoted for the damn truth!
If it's fillet Mignon of MMO's I'm becoming a vegetarian. Seriously.... Being the most popular doesn't make it the "best". Blech.... Fillet Mignon my arse.
As stated many many many many times. "BEST" is subjective. All 'ratings' are is a popularity contest. It has very little to do with actual 'quality'. Other than as an anecdotal indicator. The fact that WoW is so popular indicates that it's a good MMO (and it is). But it's not the "BEST" MMO... not in my opinion anyway. I think EQ2, EVE and DAOC are all "Better" MMORPG's though not as popular.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas