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Progressive Servers.. .Why?
Deva-state
Member Posts: 64
in Everquest
I don't understand the concept. Yeah it will give a taste of what the game was like years ago, but after 6 months or a year it will be just like any other server, if you want to group or raid you'll need to unlock the expansions just to remain active. What a lot of people want is a pure classic server, with RoK and SoV possibly, and that's it. We don't want a server that will be classic just for a little while.. This is clearly a way of SoE throwing it's customer's a bone and hoping they shut up.
I love EQ1 and I hope one day I'll get to play on a truely classic server =(
I love EQ1 and I hope one day I'll get to play on a truely classic server =(
Comments
The problem with a classic server is twofold.
1) From the players point of view, try and find 3+ players even on this forum that can agree with what to cut out and what to include! Add to that the problem that SoE admitted to, they never backed up the original servers in such a way that they could reload the game "as it was". Worse, the majority of the player base is at the high end of the game...
Which brings us to;
2) SoE (and Verant before SoE) is a company. They are out to make money off this, not pander to our drug addiction. If the game doesn't generate reaccuring revenew, they have no motivation to sponser it. And as you pointed out, 6 months to a year done the road, you've once again got a majority your players at max level and willing to pay for another expansion so that they can continue to play their high end toons.
So, based on the fact that SoE has to make a profit out of this AND that the player base can't/won't agree on what the daffynition of "classic" is (plus the fact that they forgot to keep a copy) you end up with a "progressive" server instead of a "classic" server.
Be honest! If thats all you wanted, join a regular server, form a "classic" guild and stay out of the new features... course human nature being what it is, that doesn't work, does it... which brings us back to 1)
----------------------------------------
My dog barks some. Mentally you picture my dog, but I have not told you the type of dog which I have. Perhaps you even picture Toto, from "The Wizard of Oz." But I warn you, my dog is always with me.
This is about as close to truly "classic" as you're going to get. The response to this concept has been enormous - far beyond SOE's expectations, and it is clear that SOE is trying to do as much as *reasonably* possible to provide the original experience. Take a peek at the thousands of posts about this server in the SOE forum.
http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board?board.id=Progression
Click on the Dev Tracker if you want to see the most responsive devs you've ever seen or are likely to see in your life.
Darn it! I made a long post TWICE and lost it both times. That hasn't happened to me in a long time! (OF course, I don't post nearly as much as I used to, either...) I will try to condense my thoughts down, I guess.
There are a lot of people who are interested in this server who are not in the "Classic" crowd. There are a lot of different reasons that people want to play on this new server, for better or for worse. It isn't just drawing old players back who want to experience the good old days again. It's going to draw very heavily from current players on other servers as well-- people who want to be "first and fastest" (to borrow a phrase I saw on the official forums), people who want to see what they missed, people who just want a fresh start on a server where noone has an advantage at the beginning, people who want to make new friends the old fashioned way (grouping and leveling up) and can't find many people in lowbie zones on their home server, people who are intrigued with the whole "progression" idea, etc.
I am looking forward to being a newbie again in the way I remember (or as close to that as they've been able to recreate... and this line is what took me so long last time I was typing this post, since there's things I want to say and an NDA that says NO to that...), but I am also looking forward to seeing the server progress, change, and even catch up.
FWIW, I hated PoP, and I thought GoD was a disaster of monumental proportions, but I think there have been a lot of positive, fun changes over the years too, particularly from OoW on. *shrug*
[EDIT: I just thought I'd add that I think it will be interesting to see who is left playing 6 weeks in on the new server.]
...
This is where I draw the line: __________________.
Must .. not .. give .. in .. to .. progressive .. server .. will .. only .. lead .. to .. SoL & PoP tears ..
Goddamn! Whilst I STILL wait for my Pc components to arrive, my will-power is starting to ebb and fade as EQ nostalgia washes over me.
Do you know why I really will HATE playing on the Progressive server? The fore-knowledge of SoL? PoP? Nope. The fact that I've just shelled out on a Athalon 64 +3200, 2 Gig of Crucial DDR3200 RAM, and a Nvidia 7600GT 256MB graphics card - not to mention a new MB [mother-board], PSU, cooler, case, etc.
And I'm thinking of playing 'classic' EQ!
"It's like rain on your wedding day
It's a free ride when you've already paid
It's the good advice that you just didn't take
Who would've thought... it figures"
Take it away, Alanis!
Regards,
Riotgirl
"If you think I'm plucky and scrappy and all I need is love, you're in way over your head. I don't have a heart of gold or get nice. There are a lot nicer people coming up. We call them losers."
06.06.06
At the time of the Combine 'progressive' server concept $oE was all but collapsed, from +600k to < 200k (april '06) subscribers, most of the swg people had left in revolt, and while a few EQ2 people were coming back, the mainstay EQ subscribers was sinking below 90k from a +400k high a few years ago (2002- 2003.) So, since they were bleeding tremendously (from $9M to < $3M monthly) there were jobs on the line, even the future existance of $oE in the US... Sony certainly sees it's future in PS3 consouls worldwide, NOT the nich PC US market.
So diging deep into long requested player request/expectations is the "classic" server people have been posting about for over FOUR years in the EQ forums with lame reasons why it would never ever happen from the rare dev that would bother to respond. Quite a few EQ people complain about the never ending (about twelve over seven years) expansions (another $50, thankyou, make sure the CC charge clears...) and with so many generations of new players wondering what orrig EQ was like and the vast majority of past subscribers having quit long ago, going back to the source, the orig EQ concept was a last ditch effort to bring people back into $oE's subscription clutches. They fully intended to draw it out to TWO flipin years by imposing timer 'stopgaps' so the fanatical and knowledgable EQ players would not open each of the expansions in a week ot two and quickly have opened ALL expansions (in a few months;) thereby killing this last golden goose subscription model.
This was before $oE scored rights to host MMO Vanguard:Saga of Heroes servers by the end of this year, so now Combine is less important, but by no means unimportant since it is about the only thing to bring old and new people back to $oE... untill V:SoH servers open. V:SoH can/will triple the number of subscribers now at $oE.
bhug, I'd like to see some of your sources. Are you stating these numbers from personal opinions or do you actually have some source with subscriber numbers?
From my personal experience and lack of professional input, I'm not seeing SoE disappear from any markets, with or without Vanguard.
SWG was a major mistake from the beginning, but even at it's worse (which we may still see worsen) there is constant new blood moving in, it's not going away.
EQ is old school. But the server populations are high enough that SoE isn't looking at cutting back any more servers, not yet - whether they add "The Combine" server or not.
EQII is new and despite my personal opinion of it's Suckage level, it's pulling in new an old players alike.
Planetside was never a high end game but it to has it's dedicated following and I don't see it melting into history...
So, you see, opinions about the life of SoE in the US market, are diverse. Can you quote me a source of their finicial ruin?
Thanks
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My dog barks some. Mentally you picture my dog, but I have not told you the type of dog which I have. Perhaps you even picture Toto, from "The Wizard of Oz." But I warn you, my dog is always with me.
What I find most amusing is they removed access questing from EQ II because everyone didn't like it. And now when they purpose to add it into EQ 1 it's a good idea.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
I just felt they went off the deep end with access quests in EQ2. It felt like you had to do an access quest to take a leak. Every little pissant zone seemed to have an access quest. In EQ it wasn't as pervasive, and when you got access to something like Sleepers or VT it usually felt like it was worth it, unlike EQ2. Also, EQ was a very open game (well, until PoP, anyway, heh). You could go almost anywhere you wanted to. Sure, you might die in 3 seconds (and spend hours trying to figure out how to recover your corpse, lol), but it was your choice. EQ2 felt like a board game where you just went from one square to the next in the order they planned and you needed permisson to even go to the next square.
We gonna see you on the server bro? I sense not
Me? No, I haven't played EQ 1 in over a year.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Oh, I probably will. It's just ironic that nearly 4 years after I quit, I'm finally upgrading my Pc and am going to play EQ again :P
I had an epiphany today: when SoL was released, I gritted my teeth and played for 9 months until I reached a wall with EQ and my enjoyment had dissipiated. Hence, I quit. No drama, no fuss - just a simple, short farewell on my server board (AyRo) and /quit. I never actually purchased SoL and have no intention of purchasing SoL (or any subsequent expansion) because I have all the expanisons that I am ever likely to play (Kunark and Velious).
We were spoilt for choice for content with EQ. I felt - as others did - that SoL and other expansions did not justify the price tag and made prior content redundant (especially PoP). This time round however, I play the game how I want to play the game and providing I can meet some like minded people, there is a wealth of content within the game to enjoy without ever having to shell out a single penny for SoL.
Once my support network leave the game, then that will be my que to leave as well. I figure there is at least a year's enjoyment on the Combine server. I will have no qualms about paying a subscription fee because for me, it will be worth every penny - expansions after Velious, are a different story.
Going off on a tangent, does anyone else suspect that the demand for 'classic/progressive' servers originate purely from vets who have quit? There seems to be a groundswell of opinion that WoW players (and other game players) are hungry for a new, possibly old-skool challenge and will play EQ in droves. I am not so sure.
The major turn-off for players brought up on EQ2, SWG, GW, WoW, etc will be that EQ will have 1st generation graphics. As much as gameplay counts, EQ cannot compete with the titles on the market in terms of graphics whorage. Throw in rudimentary combat, crafting that is often a chore (complete grind), and lacking the spit and polish of the contemporary titles, and I think that a lot of newcomers to EQ will be completely turned-off to actually discover the rock solid gameplay beneath.
I believe that the audience are those who are already EQ converts. I think it's too long in the tooth to convert newcomers. I hope I'm wrong in my belief, but I gauge a lot of demand from old EQ vets rather than WoW (or any other contemporary title) players.
Yeah, count me in. I'm looking forward to playing my chanter again, and this time, exclusively playing one character with NO alts to distract me. I find the idea of playing a DE chanter - as opposed a HE chanter - and experience my newbie years in a completely different zone (probably head to Blackburrow) to Crushbone, something to salivate over.
As much as nostalgia plays a factor, I can completely say - hand on heart - that I absolutely LOVED the time that I did spend in Norrath. And hopefully will do again. When it becomes time to /quit, I plan to do so exactly the first time round: no drama, no fuss, and with a load of good memories.
Regards,
Riotgirl
"If you think I'm plucky and scrappy and all I need is love, you're in way over your head. I don't have a heart of gold or get nice. There are a lot nicer people coming up. We call them losers."
06.06.07
Conceptual understanding...
say EQ has about 400k subscribers a few years ago when it had about 43 servers. Now it has about 23 servers, about half. If that same +400k population was distributed across the now less servers those servers would be quite full. Instead with now half the servers and there is even smaller populations on those fewer servers, not only is more than half the population gone, much more than half is gone.
Then with most of the $oE player population subscriptions from EQ1, and the EQ2, swg populations (even there those populations have reduced , not increased,) in sum, $oE populations have declined.
Therefore with $oE's top three $ making subscription products in serious population decline, $oE's bottom line is hurting, hence the subscription rate increase, more firings of GMs (less servers therefore no need for excess GMs) and pharming out to cheaper foreign CS.
That brings us to the golden goose The Combine 'progressive' server where the devs fully intended by set time dates "stopgaps" to prolong the opening of ALL the expansions, they fully intended to milk this last attempt to secure some viable long term subscription model over the next TWO years. (limiting the time to open each expansion AND limiting the number of people allowed on the SINGLE/ few servers [not like they got an extra 30 servers not in use at the moment.])
But Vanguard:Saga of Heroes, changed all that... no longer is Combine the twilight of $oE, since V:SoH will easily bring in 300 to 800k more subscribers when it retails end of 2006 using SoE servers AND $oE gets to handle the $ "billing."
Oh, I probably will. It's just ironic that nearly 4 years after I quit, I'm finally upgrading my Pc and am going to play EQ again :P
I had an epiphany today: when SoL was released, I gritted my teeth and played for 9 months until I reached a wall with EQ and my enjoyment had dissipiated. Hence, I quit. No drama, no fuss - just a simple, short farewell on my server board (AyRo) and /quit. I never actually purchased SoL and have no intention of purchasing SoL (or any subsequent expansion) because I have all the expanisons that I am ever likely to play (Kunark and Velious).
We were spoilt for choice for content with EQ. I felt - as others did - that SoL and other expansions did not justify the price tag and made prior content redundant (especially PoP). This time round however, I play the game how I want to play the game and providing I can meet some like minded people, there is a wealth of content within the game to enjoy without ever having to shell out a single penny for SoL.
Once my support network leave the game, then that will be my que to leave as well. I figure there is at least a year's enjoyment on the Combine server. I will have no qualms about paying a subscription fee because for me, it will be worth every penny - expansions after Velious, are a different story.
Going off on a tangent, does anyone else suspect that the demand for 'classic/progressive' servers originate purely from vets who have quit? There seems to be a groundswell of opinion that WoW players (and other game players) are hungry for a new, possibly old-skool challenge and will play EQ in droves. I am not so sure.
The major turn-off for players brought up on EQ2, SWG, GW, WoW, etc will be that EQ will have 1st generation graphics. As much as gameplay counts, EQ cannot compete with the titles on the market in terms of graphics whorage. Throw in rudimentary combat, crafting that is often a chore (complete grind), and lacking the spit and polish of the contemporary titles, and I think that a lot of newcomers to EQ will be completely turned-off to actually discover the rock solid gameplay beneath.
I believe that the audience are those who are already EQ converts. I think it's too long in the tooth to convert newcomers. I hope I'm wrong in my belief, but I gauge a lot of demand from old EQ vets rather than WoW (or any other contemporary title) players.
Yeah, count me in. I'm looking forward to playing my chanter again, and this time, exclusively playing one character with NO alts to distract me. I find the idea of playing a DE chanter - as opposed a HE chanter - and experience my newbie years in a completely different zone (probably head to Blackburrow) to Crushbone, something to salivate over.
As much as nostalgia plays a factor, I can completely say - hand on heart - that I absolutely LOVED the time that I did spend in Norrath. And hopefully will do again. When it becomes time to /quit, I plan to do so exactly the first time round: no drama, no fuss, and with a load of good memories.
Regards,
Riotgirl
I don't know about new people playing in "droves", but I am seeing quite a few complete newbs on the beta server.
Incidentally, SoL was before PoP. I never understood why so many people disliked about SoL. I loved it. It had some great zones. It actually enticed me back to the game after a break.
A pure classic server would have a huges weakness and the devs are wary about it...what to keep the players after a few months? The pure classic server offer no acceptable answer to SoE, this is why they bring the progressive, so folks who want the classic can enjoy it until they maxed and get bored and quit, while others will be able to experience the expansions coming back in, so they will remain as subscribers.
SoE always make decisions by thinking it got the majority of players happy, even if they are often quite mistaken, especially concerning raiding, but that is another story.
I am interested enough to read, but I am not interested enough to play, a raid enforcing game, never again.
Such servers are taxing on the team, as every human want to innovate and discover something new and awesome...this task is hard and not innovating. They all rather work on the new expansion than on those servers...yet specific servers with weird rules is something with quite some potential, you might be surprised at the amount of players that would play on a non-raiding server.
PS: And since it seem to be a thread, the last time I played EQ date way before my membership on this server...it is sometimes now...still have more than 1 of my year spended in the game, mostly with good memories, just a poor ending, and this is soooo un-American to have a poor ending that I am still pissed over it.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
The zones never appealed to me. More zones (plus the obligatory high-end content for those uber guilds who had finished with ToV) in a game that really didn't need more content in the forms of zones - but needed alternative, open gameplay. SoE played it safe and sensible by releasing SoL (and I cannot fault them from a commercial perspective) by focusing on improved travel (spires) and the bazaar. Even though I felt these elements detracted from the community, the majority of the players were still engaged in mid level, Planer content. Thus, it did not make commercial sense to release PoP before SoL (as much as I hate to admit it).
As well as the points I disliked about SoL above (not to mention I felt it seemed bland), the signs were there that previous content in the form of itemization were to be trivialized. As stated, I /quit before PoP, and from the reports of some players who stuck around, PoP accelerated the 'trivilization' aspect. Whilst this process will always occur in one form or another, it was the balance - the seismic shift - factor that PoP screwed up. Not to mention, enforcing raiding as the sole end-game content. No thanks.
That's just my opinion, and I respect the fact that others have a different opinon and still enjoy the game. When all is said and done, during the 18 months I played, I have never regretted either spending my time or subscription fee on EQ.
Look forward to seeing you all in game
Regards,
Riotgirl
"If you think I'm plucky and scrappy and all I need is love, you're in way over your head. I don't have a heart of gold or get nice. There are a lot nicer people coming up. We call them losers."
I just don't really have any interest in returning too it.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
That makes this just your opinion. I'm okay with that.
Thanks
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My dog barks some. Mentally you picture my dog, but I have not told you the type of dog which I have. Perhaps you even picture Toto, from "The Wizard of Oz." But I warn you, my dog is always with me.
At this point, you almost have to ask, "which end game?". There is just so much to do, and much of the newer high end content doesn't require raids, or requires smaller raids, or some combination of group and raid tasks. I am sure that the very highest end guilds are just plowing through the new content in order, but for many players, we can't even keep up because the expansions are coming so fast these days. IMO. I really don't care what the bleeding edge guilds are doing. I just know that I am overwhelmed with options to do things to advance my characters. And, I have to say, that makes starting over in Original Recipe EQ really attractive to me, personally.
With that said, if the trivialization of previous content is your objection to SoL, PoP and later... well, you left at a good time. I never thought I would see the day that 100+ HP/MANA items are common as dirt and easy to get, even for a complete slacker like me. For instance, I picked up this shield in a quick group one night. And I was able to get this necklace by doing a simple quest and joining another guild for the raid mob at the end-- they wanted to trigger him as much as possible to get his other loot, which is decent.
And, beyond the itemization, most expansions have added tons of additional AA abilities, which are easy to collect if you simply play a lot... but not so easy for people who don't play much (like myself). And since I have been in and out of the game since SoL, I haven't kept up, and I feel permanently behind, even with the items I have picked up. So, again, starting over at the beginning, in a version of EQ that I am familiar with and understand, is really attractive to me. I keep telling myself that if I just get on this new server and play a bit more and try to keep up with the middle of the pack (not the high-end, but not the utter slackers either), then I will figure out all this new content from recent expansions when I get to see it for what will be MY first time.
...
This is where I draw the line: __________________.
The good old days of rubicite waits and just flat out groups ready to KS eachother for a shot at a piece of rubicite. I still remember the first raid on Fear. 2 weeks later ebay had a rash of naked level 50 characters who had all their gear rot in Fear.
Odom,
I don't wish to burst your bubble, as one of my first thoughts was, "Rubicite", but the Combine server is not a 'roll-back' - all changes made to the game that are non-expansion related i.e. unlocking content, will be present on the Progressive server. This means that rubicite is "highly unlikely". Read the FAQ for the skinny.
To summarize (from my understanding): content associated with expansions will only be available once the expansion becomes 'unlocked' (a trigger within the game i.e. killing Nagafen & Vox, for example). Any changes made to the game code that is not related to an expansion will stay. This means (probably): no boats, no rubicite, and some other bits and pieces. In other words, it's not a 100% 'classic' server.
I don't fully understand why some aspects can be rolled-back (certain zones), but other aspects (equipment, boats) cannot. As hinted within the FAQ, the code has changed so much that it would be a near technical impossibility. All suggests that no-one ever expected to roll-back any of the changes made. I'm prepared to cut SoE some slack here because after 7 years of continued updates, expansions, etc, EQ is a completely different beast than when first released, let alone when I first started playing in April 2001.
I'm disappointed about the lack of boats, because although they were annoying - the 30 minute trip (if you just missed the boat to Freeport) - they did allow one to chat with fellow players, indulge in a bit of RP and nip off the toilet, fix some food, grab a drink and do some exercise (sit-ups). Nothing funnier than getting off earlier and realising that you were on Brother or Sister Island, and by the time you had realised your mistake the boat has receded into the distance.
Regards,
Riotgirl
"If you think I'm plucky and scrappy and all I need is love, you're in way over your head. I don't have a heart of gold or get nice. There are a lot nicer people coming up. We call them losers."
The reason boats were taken out is that they were broken and they couldn't seem to get them fixed. They were in and out for a while before they decided to just stick with the gnomes, and that was that for boats.
I recall thinking I would take the boat from Erudin to Qeynos during one of the times boats were back in, only to find that the boat and the skiff weren't in synch. The boat would come, leave, and THEN the skiff would go out. So.... I went back out to Toxx and clicked the book. I rather miss some of the boats, but broken boats would have people screaming too.
...
This is where I draw the line: __________________.
I haven't played in years, but I have very fond memories, esp. of starting in Neriak/Nektulos as a DE Necro. Being chased around the forest the first time you stumbled into the skellie altar. Or someone stirring up some zombies or the occassional mummy. The first time you where fighting, intent on your target and a young kodiak put the whack on you. Medding (this during the days when you had to stare at your spellbook when medding) on the newb log, hoping people would give warning if anything nasty came by. The first time I talked to Innkeep Harold in EC and got the bejeezus smacked out of me. The first trips into Befallen and the trains people would pull from the bottom.
Almost, I am tempted to return but then I start thinking about the things I didn't like.
The inability of any class besides the Druid or Necro to solo beyond level 20. The absolutely hideious downtime between fights, esp. solo. Having to constantly fight at the zone walls (or some obstruction) so you dont get ambushed by wanderers. The absolute poverty until later levels and needing money to buy crafted gear, good drops and spells. The lousy crafting interface and expensive grind to get it to a useful point. Very limited carrying capacity.
My largest reservation of all being that I don't like giving money to SOE, esp. after what they did to SWG.
I dunno, going to have to think about it.