"Rant: I wonder when it ever will be time for France and Germany to have mandatory english lessons from an early age? France needs to let go of the remnant of French being the world language and Germany needs to stop thinking theirs is. Like stubborn kids refusing to see how things really are ;T."
That is stereotyping and to a certain degree even racist and I wasn't trolling, I was just correcting you.
"Everything I've said can be summed up to: "dubbing and translating everything for its people prevents people from learning another language easier and faster" which is a fact and "the translation of WAR based on the experience from DAoC will delay and affect the english players in a negative way" which also most likely is a fact. Why these specific countries have FORCED dubbing and massive translation I don't know, all I was doing was discussing the issue. People should ALWAYS have the OPTION to have a translation, but forcing it constantly is the wrong approach."
I agree, reading/watching english media does help a lot (I've never said that it doesn't)! I also agree that waiting for patches just because of the translation is bad, I don't want that either. But I'm pretty sure that mythic and goa are aware of that. The easist thing would be to translate and then release, if they do the translation simultaneous to the development I don't see a problem and there wouldn't be any delay at all. Blizzard did a good job in that department.
I for one watch only us/uk movies and tv shows, cause synchronisations are just bad and can ruin the movie/show. Every gamer that i know are playing online games only in english, mostly because it's easier to communicate with others. But people should be able to play a mmorpg in their native language if they want to.
"That is stereotyping and to a certain degree even racist and I wasn't trolling, I was just correcting you."
Calling someone who actually tries to discuss something in a civil tone a rasist isn't trolling? If you were serious with that rasist remark I know alot of french and german citizens with whom I've discussed this before that are rasists according to YOU. I've spoken to french people that think there's no reason to learn english since french used to be the world language and I've spoken to germans who think there's no reason to learn english since german is good enough. Naturally, to no extent whatsoever is this the majority so I probably should've added "some people in.." so touchy people like you - who can't read between the lines and discuss something without picking on one word/line - don't feel too bad. If you had read everything I typed you would've seen quite easily that I didn't believe everyone in france and germany were like that by a longshot. I was trying to get a discussion going on why it's like this, what role the government has in it and also if it ever were going to change.
Anyway it's nice that you agree that forced dubbing/translating is a bad thing and I also think people of major countries and those with high illiteracy should have the option to use their language. I don't however have much faith in the department of translation in MMO's since things can't in any way be released at the normal pace unless they do have a translator sitting beside the coders and translating on a 1:1 ratio. Translation is a delay, no matter how you put it. I just hope they can keep it to an extreme minimum.
Edit: off for some beer, take care now, my english speaking german friend!
thats how i understood the situation, and why people are pissed because some people need a version of their own country..
Didn't piss me off in the slightest, nor anyone in my Guild as I recall. The people who got worked up about being a couple of months behind the US servers tended to buy a US version of the game and went off to be super competetive. The rest of us just stayed where we were - let the US servers iron out the bad bugs - and enjoyed our game
God damnit man, I am NOT calling you a racist (why the hell would i do that?).
All i did was calling this statement racist:
"Rant: I wonder when it ever will be time for France and Germany to have mandatory english lessons from an early age? France needs to let go of the remnant of French being the world language and Germany needs to stop thinking theirs is. Like stubborn kids refusing to see how things really are ;T."
Which has nothing to do with the language issue nor with our goverment. I think a lot of people would agree with me that it was pure stereotyping, maybe you didn't mean it that way. Anyhow I'm always interested in a good conversation, but it has to be made on a certain level.
I respect your view and I agree with most of it.
The problem with the german school system (the way i see it):
Vocabularies are totally useless if you do not know how to use them. All we did in school was learning vocabularies, grammar and how to read books (pronunciation). But that wont help if you actually have to deal with other people.
-make them write reports (what did you do last weekend etc.) and discuss it later with the whole class -talking in mixed groups about politics, weather, school etc. -make it interesting and fun, pressure from teachers or students wont help -let them watch classics like: 12 angry men, blood in blood out
The entire system in its present form is way to stiff. A language often represents lifestyle, culture etc. you have to develope a feeling for it.
Back to topic:
There is not much translation to do in a normal patch anyway, I'm 100% sure that mythic and goa can manage it.
Let's not make this into a political thread. We got the off-topic forum for that
The local versions shouldn't be a problem at all. Blizzard manages it very litte delay with their European version of World of Warcraft. If GOA got their stuff right they should be able to manage the same.
The problem as I see it (Based on my experience), is that GOA didn't have their stuff together in DaoC. Mainly in the other support aspects beside translation of patches. GM's and technical/other support.
First off, I'm too drunk now to make any proper arguement. Hating stereotypes myself I reacted accordingly but I understand how they're formed and why. I still think the government has a big responsibility in this issue by forming a different kind of acceptance and tolerance. I respect your views as well and hope we came to a good conclusion nonetheless .
Movies, music, games, these are the best tools to teach people a new language, subtitle away but dubbing prevents people from learning.
I hope you're right here and we can see a good cooperation between GOA and Mythic in WAR which clearly was not the case in DAoC.
Originally posted by Phoenixs Let's not make this into a political thread. We got the off-topic forum for that
The local versions shouldn't be a problem at all. Blizzard manages it very litte delay with their European version of World of Warcraft. If GOA got their stuff right they should be able to manage the same.
The problem as I see it (Based on my experience), is that GOA didn't have their stuff together in DaoC. Mainly in the other support aspects beside translation of patches. GM's and technical/other support.
Yes, back to topic.
However on saying what you have said you have as many people do, compaired the game directly to WoW.
Sadly though I feel in this respect this time you have too, Now Blizzard relaise there patch is the US, on there maintanance day, the following week on the EU servers the patch is then realised, the EU team blizzard have work very hard to get what they need out of it, and get the job done, even looking back a year ago there tech support in game was a shambles, and a pittful excuse for a GM team, they have advertised hard, and pulled in the staff needed, now from waiting 2 days for a GM responce I'll usualy get one with in 1-2 hours day or night (Hell I even spoke to a GM a few weeks ago at 3:45 am) so in this case they have improved and got probably were they need to get too.
Now we go on to GOA, they have already shown us what they can do with DAoC, and for a hell of a lot of us, it was sub standard, not quite as bad as WoW 1 year ago, BUT things for me never got any better, and by the time it came for me to move on I'd given up trying to solve anything through a GM and usualy had forums I could go to to see if there was a problem there I could relate to and adjust to help me.
Now, for GOA to support WAR the way they failed to support DAoC, there going to have to pull there thumbs out of there arse's, there patching and conversion must be perfect and seemless on doing so this game will probably gain the same mood of the crowd that play it as DAoC and WoW have, things may get better but once your imadge is tarnished its so hard to get it back up to scratch, and people WILL compare GOA service here to Mythic service in teh US, and if its not good enough it could even hamper this game in Europe or even make it crash.
I suppose Mythic are putting a lot of trust in GOA to deliver what they failed to with DAoC, lets hope GOA learn from there mistakes as Mythic say they have (Contrast, if GOA dont then Mythic has made a mistake again by giving the rights to the same group, thus not learning anything from there mistakes).
I tend to agree with Sauna. For some reason the French and the Germans often opt to speak their native tongue... and often refuse to speak anything else even if they can. I don't know why, but you can clearly see how even people in the tourist/service industry dislike speaking anything other than their native tongue. This is vastly different compared to, say, the Italians. I’m not sure it has anything to do with their knowledge of the English langue. You don’t really need to know a lot about grammar to convey what you mean.
They don't refuse to speak english, they just can't do it. If you never use a language after school you gonna forget some of it (how much depends on the person). And people tend to get insecure because of that, and then they try to avoid conversations. It's exactly the same in the states, I do know some people that have learned german but after many years they can hardly speak anything except guten tag . But even if they don't forget much, the system is still to stiff and you don't really learn how to talk.
And don't kid yourself, the standards to get a job here are pretty high especially when you have to deal with foreigners/tourists. Just because you've met some that couldn't speak proper english doesn't mean that everyone in that branch is like that.
PS: Don't get me wrong, there are definitely some germans that hate english. But every country has its share of idiots
Flavior/Sjona: I don't know where you got your "2 weeks" from. From my experience translation of DAoC caused the patches to NEVER catch up in the ~3 years I played it. It's fine if they want to translate, but why don't release the english version as soon as it's done and up on the US? The reason was probably to not piss off the german and french players of course - and might be understandable - but I still don't agree with it, ok? .
"Arguing on the internet..." etc. .
Perhaps you should have stopped to catch up with the state of DAoC in Europe first then before making your statements.
The patches have been getting faster and faster and we are currently on the same patch as the US and it was implemented within a month of it going live on the US (if I remember correctly, might even have been around two weeks).
As for the historical nature of DAoC in Europe. Until GoA stepped in and said they wished to operate a European version of the game, localised to Germany and France, there weren't going to be any EU servers and, at that time, it wasn't even sure whether people would be able to buy the game outside of the US.
GoA's record for server uptime is second to none, their GMs are dedicated and helpful and, if used correctly, the RightNow webtool works within 24 hours. Problems with server side lag are usually the result of a failure on the Open Transit network and are outside of GoA control, the same thing happens with Telia and World of Warcraft by the way, no network is perfect.
The people moaning about GoA on Freddyshouse and other forums are a very small vocal minority. Lets face it, if the majority of people playing DAoC really thought GoA were crap, well, there wouldn't be anyone playing would there?
"2) All US/European servers will be run by Mythic. We announced the opening of a European office for Mythic a couple of weeks ago and we have every intention of hosting/running those servers."
Is it just me, or doesn't that mean that there won't be any GoA? anyone got any confirmed sources where they said that GoA actually WILL do the europe version ?
EDIT: I take that back, just found an article saying that GoA will do it DAMN! got my hopes up for nothing, sigh..
Comments
"Rant: I wonder when it ever will be time for France and Germany to have mandatory english lessons from an early age? France needs to let go of the remnant of French being the world language and Germany needs to stop thinking theirs is. Like stubborn kids refusing to see how things really are ;T."
That is stereotyping and to a certain degree even racist and I wasn't trolling, I was just correcting you.
"Everything I've said can be summed up to: "dubbing and translating everything for its people prevents people from learning another language easier and faster" which is a fact and "the translation of WAR based on the experience from DAoC will delay and affect the english players in a negative way" which also most likely is a fact. Why these specific countries have FORCED dubbing and massive translation I don't know, all I was doing was discussing the issue.
People should ALWAYS have the OPTION to have a translation, but forcing it constantly is the wrong approach."
I agree, reading/watching english media does help a lot (I've never said that it doesn't)! I also agree that waiting for patches just because of the translation is bad, I don't want that either. But I'm pretty sure that mythic and goa are aware of that. The easist thing would be to translate and then release, if they do the translation simultaneous to the development I don't see a problem and there wouldn't be any delay at all.
Blizzard did a good job in that department.
I for one watch only us/uk movies and tv shows, cause synchronisations are just bad and can ruin the movie/show. Every gamer that i know are playing online games only in english, mostly because it's easier to communicate with others. But people should be able to play a mmorpg in their native language if they want to.
"That is stereotyping and to a certain degree even racist and I wasn't trolling, I was just correcting you."
Calling someone who actually tries to discuss something in a civil tone a rasist isn't trolling?
If you were serious with that rasist remark I know alot of french and german citizens with whom I've discussed this before that are rasists according to YOU.
I've spoken to french people that think there's no reason to learn english since french used to be the world language and I've spoken to germans who think there's no reason to learn english since german is good enough.
Naturally, to no extent whatsoever is this the majority so I probably should've added "some people in.." so touchy people like you - who can't read between the lines and discuss something without picking on one word/line - don't feel too bad. If you had read everything I typed you would've seen quite easily that I didn't believe everyone in france and germany were like that by a longshot. I was trying to get a discussion going on why it's like this, what role the government has in it and also if it ever were going to change.
Anyway it's nice that you agree that forced dubbing/translating is a bad thing and I also think people of major countries and those with high illiteracy should have the option to use their language. I don't however have much faith in the department of translation in MMO's since things can't in any way be released at the normal pace unless they do have a translator sitting beside the coders and translating on a 1:1 ratio. Translation is a delay, no matter how you put it. I just hope they can keep it to an extreme minimum.
Edit: off for some beer, take care now, my english speaking german friend!
http://kompaniet.mine.nu :+: #kompaniet @ QuakeNet
The people who got worked up about being a couple of months behind the US servers tended to buy a US version of the game and went off to be super competetive.
The rest of us just stayed where we were - let the US servers iron out the bad bugs - and enjoyed our game
God damnit man, I am NOT calling you a racist (why the hell would i do that?).
All i did was calling this statement racist:
"Rant: I wonder when it ever will be time for France and Germany to have mandatory english lessons from an early age? France needs to let go of the remnant of French being the world language and Germany needs to stop thinking theirs is. Like stubborn kids refusing to see how things really are ;T."
Which has nothing to do with the language issue nor with our goverment. I think a lot of people would agree with me that it was pure stereotyping, maybe you didn't mean it that way. Anyhow I'm always interested in a good conversation, but it has to be made on a certain level.
I respect your view and I agree with most of it.
The problem with the german school system (the way i see it):
Vocabularies are totally useless if you do not know how to use them. All we did in school was learning vocabularies, grammar and how to read books (pronunciation). But that wont help if you actually have to deal with other people.
-make them write reports (what did you do last weekend etc.) and discuss it later with the whole class
-talking in mixed groups about politics, weather, school etc.
-make it interesting and fun, pressure from teachers or students wont help
-let them watch classics like: 12 angry men, blood in blood out
The entire system in its present form is way to stiff. A language often represents lifestyle, culture etc. you have to develope a feeling for it.
Back to topic:
There is not much translation to do in a normal patch anyway, I'm 100% sure that mythic and goa can manage it.
The local versions shouldn't be a problem at all. Blizzard manages it very litte delay with their European version of World of Warcraft. If GOA got their stuff right they should be able to manage the same.
The problem as I see it (Based on my experience), is that GOA didn't have their stuff together in DaoC. Mainly in the other support aspects beside translation of patches. GM's and technical/other support.
First off, I'm too drunk now to make any proper arguement. Hating stereotypes myself I reacted accordingly but I understand how they're formed and why. I still think the government has a big responsibility in this issue by forming a different kind of acceptance and tolerance.
I respect your views as well and hope we came to a good conclusion nonetheless
Movies, music, games, these are the best tools to teach people a new language, subtitle away but dubbing prevents people from learning.
I hope you're right here and we can see a good cooperation between GOA and Mythic in WAR which clearly was not the case in DAoC.
http://kompaniet.mine.nu :+: #kompaniet @ QuakeNet
However on saying what you have said you have as many people do, compaired the game directly to WoW.
Sadly though I feel in this respect this time you have too, Now Blizzard relaise there patch is the US, on there maintanance day, the following week on the EU servers the patch is then realised, the EU team blizzard have work very hard to get what they need out of it, and get the job done, even looking back a year ago there tech support in game was a shambles, and a pittful excuse for a GM team, they have advertised hard, and pulled in the staff needed, now from waiting 2 days for a GM responce I'll usualy get one with in 1-2 hours day or night (Hell I even spoke to a GM a few weeks ago at 3:45 am) so in this case they have improved and got probably were they need to get too.
Now we go on to GOA, they have already shown us what they can do with DAoC, and for a hell of a lot of us, it was sub standard, not quite as bad as WoW 1 year ago, BUT things for me never got any better, and by the time it came for me to move on I'd given up trying to solve anything through a GM and usualy had forums I could go to to see if there was a problem there I could relate to and adjust to help me.
Now, for GOA to support WAR the way they failed to support DAoC, there going to have to pull there thumbs out of there arse's, there patching and conversion must be perfect and seemless on doing so this game will probably gain the same mood of the crowd that play it as DAoC and WoW have, things may get better but once your imadge is tarnished its so hard to get it back up to scratch, and people WILL compare GOA service here to Mythic service in teh US, and if its not good enough it could even hamper this game in Europe or even make it crash.
I suppose Mythic are putting a lot of trust in GOA to deliver what they failed to with DAoC, lets hope GOA learn from there mistakes as Mythic say they have (Contrast, if GOA dont then Mythic has made a mistake again by giving the rights to the same group, thus not learning anything from there mistakes).
Just my 2 cent.
Die Noctique, By Day and Night
I tend to agree with Sauna. For some reason the French and the Germans often opt to speak their native tongue... and often refuse to speak anything else even if they can. I don't know why, but you can clearly see how even people in the tourist/service industry dislike speaking anything other than their native tongue. This is vastly different compared to, say, the Italians. I’m not sure it has anything to do with their knowledge of the English langue. You don’t really need to know a lot about grammar to convey what you mean.
They don't refuse to speak english, they just can't do it. If you never use a language after school you gonna forget some of it (how much depends on the person). And people tend to get insecure because of that, and then they try to avoid conversations.
.
It's exactly the same in the states, I do know some people that have learned german but after many years they can hardly speak anything except guten tag
But even if they don't forget much, the system is still to stiff and you don't really learn how to talk.
And don't kid yourself, the standards to get a job here are pretty high especially when you have to deal with foreigners/tourists. Just because you've met some that couldn't speak proper english doesn't mean that everyone in that branch is like that.
PS: Don't get me wrong, there are definitely some germans that hate english. But every country has its share of idiots
The patches have been getting faster and faster and we are currently on
the same patch as the US and it was implemented within a month of it
going live on the US (if I remember correctly, might even have been
around two weeks).
As for the historical nature of DAoC in Europe. Until GoA stepped in and said they wished to operate a European version of the game, localised to Germany and France, there weren't going to be any EU servers and, at that time, it wasn't even sure whether people would be able to buy the game outside of the US.
GoA's record for server uptime is second to none, their GMs are dedicated and helpful and, if used correctly, the RightNow webtool works within 24 hours.
Problems with server side lag are usually the result of a failure on the Open Transit network and are outside of GoA control, the same thing happens with Telia and World of Warcraft by the way, no network is perfect.
The people moaning about GoA on Freddyshouse and other forums are a very small vocal minority. Lets face it, if the majority of people playing DAoC really thought GoA were crap, well, there wouldn't be anyone playing would there?
*I am not a smurf*
opening of a European office for Mythic a couple of weeks ago and we
have every intention of hosting/running those servers."
-http://www.war-rvr.net/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=47&topic=51.0
Is it just me, or doesn't that mean that there won't be any GoA?
anyone got any confirmed sources where they said that GoA actually WILL
do the europe version ?
EDIT: I take that back, just found an article saying that GoA will do it
DAMN! got my hopes up for nothing, sigh..
~~ The one and only from the sundsvall elite ~~