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one of the best posts iv seen about new publ
Sempayw
Member Posts: 83
ChuTneYuk wrote:
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Well, here we ago. Another thread about combat.
Ive just been poking around in NK, Avatar, Geo Caves. Here are my thoughts on this latest incarnation of combat!
Bear with me. (yes I know we will never get a rollback, or classic servers etc. this is a look at what made combat good in the other versions in an attempt to bring back the best elements)
PreCU (the original version):
Ok, noone can argue that it didnt have its faults and balance issues. A large part of that was the 'non-reactive' combat. In the original version, there existed a Combat Queue, where you could queue up your special abbilities. SOE said that this wasnt fast, engaging, or reactive. instead you spammed a series of specials. well, yes and no. The fact that there Was a combat queue suggests they were right, the tactics were all about how you stacked Your specials, not how you reacted to your enemies. But, they got it right with such abilities as dizzy (and the other states) and knockdown, along with Kip-up shots (not the ones you did, but the ones that made your enemys stance go up or down depending on the situation) and poison DoTs.
But a large part of the fun was seeing what you could produce with your character, using the 'sandbox' idea where by you could mix and match skill trees from entirely different professions, with the limitation being the number of Skill Points you had (250). This brought about fantastic variety between players. There was no Combat Level either, so you had less idea about the fights you were getting into! You did have a /consider option and other mechanisms, but you couldnt tell on first look, what you were going up against! Which was great fun!
XP Gains! Xp was slow! but it resulted in a much more cohesive game. All professions grew from just 4 starting professions, Entertainer, Medic, Scout, marksmand and Brawler. This meant that whilst you were gaining Xp, experience and skill boxes, you were also learning the ins and outs of each. Eventually, you were ready to enter an elite profession! It took a Long time.. but you got there. By such time, you had a fair idea how the game worked, and were ready to choose where to go. usually, after dabbling in a bit of each, you chose your final path and progressed towards it! but you went balls out for it, because it took a lot of investment due to the Xp gain rate. This was a good thing!! it meant you didnt take things so lightly, you studied the professions and what they gave you. What SOE did right here, was make it so that each skill box you gained gave you something of a reward, so you werent just looking towards mastering, but you made a decision as to which box you got next. It wasnt about 'Master or Nothing'. The progress was slow, but the rewards along the way were enough to keep your interest. Also, because you had a choice.. it wasnt just a waiting game like the current profession wheel!
Item Decay! Item decay had its pros and cons. A big con, was they way you went through suits of armour like there was no tommorw.. a simple fix however, would have been to dramatically increase the condition value of armour, not get rid of the whole thing entirely. The major bonus of item decay, whilst not realising this at the time, was that it meant you had to replace your Speeder bike, your favourite weapon, your suit of armour etc etc.. this added Content! In the NGE, all you need are 3 guns, one suit of armour and a speederbike. your money just builds and builds, and you have no reason to go out hunting for Creature resources to sell, or rebel/imp faction missions or go voritor hunting etc., because you have all the money and items you'll ever need!
Jump To Lightspeed!
Just a quick note on this! JTL was an Excellent expansion, bringing the much anticipated space combat to the Star Wars Galaxies! SOO much fun to be had in space, and a lot of money to be earned too! Incredibly, you didnt need to surrender any skills to be an ace pilot either!! fantastic stuff! What it did do also however, was kill off the Galactic Central Hub that was Coronet City. This City used to be So alive with players. It sits slap bang in the middle of all galactic shuttle routes and so it quickly became the player commerce centre also! with the advent of JTL and instant travel however, this beautiful hub became an overnight ghost town 
The CU! (preNGE)
Again, not such a perfect version. A large portion of the community left. a large portion of them eventually came back. I cant tell you the figures because SOE dont release them. What this version did very well however, was bring back groups and group hunting! probably the single most important aspect of a Massively Multiplayer Game! it also brought with it some incredible specials, such as Pistoleers Root ability, Smugglers Mezz skills, and that amazing version of the Oh So Loved Creature Handler!!! What they translated as, was a great variety between professions. you really did need a group with different professions all supporting each other. Close combat fighters such as TKM and Jedi, supported by pistoleers and smugglers to root and mez, rifleman and their huge damage output, medics to heal, rangers to apply traps and states.. it worked so well! What killed the CU however, was the insane amounts of XP. It was a bug. But it was left there for many many months, until we all thought this was how it was intended. I am no innocent, I mastered about 20 combat professions in such a shot space of time.. I could master an elite profession within a week or two. not hard at all. Then when SOE belatedly tried to fix this blunder that was killing the CU, we screamed out at them for doing so. In this instance, they knew best, and we boycotted them. dam.
The NGE!
Well, they really screwed up this time! I can understand where they were trying to go. They wanted a StarWarsy Fast paced action packed adventure. Sounds GREAT on paper. But it worked out Very poorly indeed. 9 professions, whilst being easier for SOE to manage, made us feel confined and strangled. So much variety and possibility just thrown out the window! Even still I stuck with it. What I soon discovered however, was that every profession is the same, a clone, dressed in different clothes. Lets look at the make up of each combat profession. A Snare. A DoT. A Heal. A Damage dealer. The end. thats it! thats all the combat specials there are. yes they are all dressed differently, but essentially thats how each profession is. yes, some of them also have a Combat Exit Special. ie, mindtrick, smoke bomb, hide ally, force run, and thats about all the variety there is: half the profs get an exit strategy. /sigh. WIth the NGE came appauling game mechanic, graphical, animation, interaction, content and specials ability BUGS! benny hill combat, Ice skating Creature Mounts, impossible to complete quests. It left us all asking what on earth we are paying for. But its star wars, and it was once such a huge game with unlimited potential, that many of us stuck with it. But the jokes wearing thin.
The latest Combat Changes!
Well, the latest changes to the Combat Engine are a much needed breath of life into the NGE. They dont go all the way, but they do bring back a preCU Feel to combat. And Some form of a challenge in some areas! Benny Hill is slowly retiring from SWG. Much Better. /thumbsup. But its still not quite there is it? Combat is still, basically, boring.! I dont care what anyone says, the fact remains that without sufficient Risk vs. Reward.. a challenge.. there is no fun. If you can solo the DWB, whats the point? Why not just play KOTOR or other single player game! Soloing Dungeons should Not be possible!!
Combat Level Aggro Range Drastically needs to be looked at. Every player should once again (except traders) create aggro from any 'Red Con' mob that is within at least 20-40 CL's of the player. It made me wanna cry today as I just casually waltzed past huge numbers of CL 74 Spider things on the way to NK! They didnt batter an eyelid, it was like walking through a Wax Works Musem!! BORING. All those wonderful places like the Squill Caves, the pygmy TorTon caves etc etc etc etc. (the What Caves? I hear so many players ask). Theres a wealth of content on all the 'Old' planets just sitting there, unused, forgotten with Empty Lockboxes at the bottom of them.
The Future!
Whilst in the last 4 months, SOE have made some much needed progress toward a better business strategy, customer relations, and bug and content fixing, the fact remains that combat and the game itself is now, frankly, boring! Thats the best word I can use to sum up SWG in the NGE! Boring. Why oh why didnt they leave the CU and just make a complete, cohesive, New SWG called SWG 2! instead of the NGE. I could have lived with that. I could have Chosen the version I wanted to play, much like EQ and EQ2. And SOE could have made a fresh game that actually worked, and one that isnt filled with old code from 3 different versions causing bug after bug after bug. I look forward to Some of the publishes that are coming up, but I cant help thinking that its all still going to be boring.
What I miss from the previous versions!
Apart from just saying "I miss the original version" let me point out some things. I miss camping. I miss traps. i miss melee combat. I miss Traders and Entertainers and Doctors. Ultimately, what Im saying is that I miss all those amazing world simulation elements of the game that every player engaged in when they needed a break from combat. Sometimes, most players didnt even notice they were taking a break, but they would go get a mind buff, or sit in a camp and heal wounds (whilst talking about the hunt and what they plan to do etc etc. like a real campfire) or they would Craft spices, or Med stims etc etc etc.. Of course, I also miss an engaging, tactical, personalised and Fun combat engine too! but combat isnt the be all and end all of the starwars experience.
The best fun I ever had in SWG, was when I became a hybrid profession. "whats on earth is that?" i hear the new players splutter.. well you see, remeber that sand box profession system I mentioned? well, it enabled me to become a Master Smuggler and a Master Droid Engineer. Because of the makeup of the trees, this meant I had great melee combat, fantastic (pistol) ranged combat and some med skills too. But I also had my trusty droid, JonnyFive with me. I could stop combat and craft spices, or more often, I could put together a customer Droid for my friends. A droid that could fight, side by side with its master, then it could turn round and launch a stimpack at its master when the need arose, or go and skin a fallen beast to collect hide for its master to sell or use to make camps and such. Being a smuggler, I had the only profession in the game that had Feign Death. FD was an exit strategy special like Spies Smoke grenade or Jedi's mindtrick. But it was only available to smuggler, another example of how much the professions varied. Often, I was the only one left standing in the Droid Facility even though I was Combat Level 54! because I had root abilities and Feign Death and my trusty droid. Then I would make all my friends their own trusty companion. Great Times. then the NGE came and this wasnt at all possible anymore.
It makes me scream when I hear Helios ask "So, what exactly did you like about camping?" It makes me very sad, it shows that SOE and the Devs have no idea what made this game great. Which means they have no idea how to make it great again.
What Can SOE do to bring back the Fun?
You all know most of it, but to summarise;
- Look at preNGE profession specials and bring back the best and most varied.
- Stop making every profession a clone of the next.
- Bring back the Challenge
- Bring back variety, personality and sandbox skill sets
- Bring back Creature Handler
- Bring back non-combat elements such as Camping (and the Ranger profession)
- Let Smugglers finally smuggle
- What was wrong with all those Lock Boxes in the POIs?? why are they empty now?
- Increase CL aggro range so that all 'Red Con' mobs within 20-40 levels of the player, will aggro that player!
It doesnt have to be a rollback. just look at what made the other versions great, and bring that into the NGE. Please.
Well, thank you so very much for reading this (if anyone can be bothered). I know it wont make the slightest difference, but its made me feel better, even if my fingers ache. See you folks, not for the last time I hope!
Message Edited by ChuTneYuk on 06-09-2006 08:24 PM
Comments
Nice post. Our game is gone there is NOTHING that will bring it back. This POS game needs to be sunseted. There is nothing in game left. Both the game and the playerbase has been gutted.
The above statement is SO SO true. I also was appalled when I read this statement from Helios on the Official SWG Forums.
What Smedley and company FAIL to understand is that people wanted to live their own saga of SW, NOT one dictated or restricted by Smedley or the Developers. The NGE totally destroyed (amoung MANY MANY other things) any sense of uniqueness an individual player could have.
Sago Mactow
Former SWG 2yr 7 month Vet
6/26/03 - 1/26/06
Jedi, Master Shipwright, Master Architect
DFR Councilman
Tarq Server
Nice find and good clarification as well ; was thumbing through the main fourm found a post from a player post nge and it went on for pages, in the midst found this little gem
LadySydney wrote; main fourms thread about New Post NGE players treated like second class citizens
All this bickering further illustrates the fact that the NGE should have been a new game, and should not have come at the expense of eliminating the game that many of us bought and enjoyed for 2.5 yearys.
It doesn't make it right for the individuals who do so, but all the same, this atmosphere of anger and conflict between Pre NGE and Post NGE was created by SOE's poor ethics in eliminating a game in order to replace it with a new one, which is marketed completely differently from the one that many of us bought.
I agree with above post that it was the company that brought about the current anger and there will be in any game have/ have nots , but with the changes swg brought forth the pitting player against player end result is what is this many many page thread
Was mostly true for Chilastra.
Kai
The part that says: Bring back non-combat elements such as Camping (and the Ranger profession)
We fought one helluva fight during the CU to get Ranger recognized as a combat profession so as to get the health bonus you get from the skill boxes. To be considered non combat aggravates me.
Kai
- Pre-pub 9 Jedi looking down on everyone
- Pre-cu jedi looking down on everyone
- Pre-NGE "elder titled" people looking down on everyone
During the CU, the separation between former FRS and non FRS Jedi was harsh. It became considerably more apparent than previous similar incidents because of the availability of titles and the alpha status of converted LS.
But such vet discrimination has always been present in SWG.
It most likely comes from a distinct belief among players, that because they did something in game it's theirs to keep.
- Other games don't render past achievements worthless, or if they do, they never remove them and properly compensate them
- When games shut down, each and every single achievement is gone and lost forever
It's the SOE's practices that have brought these feelings forward ahead of their time, and into the game. There is nothing that can be done at this point, so it's really deal with it or get out.
It will be interesting (from psychological POV) to watch how the MMOs die. This hasn't really happened as of yet, but slowly the big actors will start shuting down. Those that do, will mean permanent, irreversible and complete loss of everything that any and all players have achieved in that game. Even those that have quit will have something to think about.
This doesn't affect every player, but it does many. Right now, games are being prolonged indefinately, since their upkeep can be sustained. But market is getting saturated, and new, faster product turnarounds are becoming possible. The instant action MMOs evolving in Asia can be set up and shut down much quicker (1-4 years turnaround), while maximizing the profits. This is especially true for no subscription models.
We'll see.
Always intresting to see the different reasons that someone liked the same game as you. Three things I disagree with though.
I never liked Coronet as the central hub it was pre JTLS. It was a lag nightmare that had to be endured while going shoping. All the times I went through there it never added anything social to my game. Not one of the people on my friends list was met in Coronet.
Pre CU I could master a elite combat profession in alot less time then during the CU. I was never much for long periods of grinding but 3 nights of hunting were enough to master and I know there are people who played that did it alot faster then me. That grinding of xp pre CU and during the CU wasn't what I'd call fun either, get a team, get a mission, massacer the missions, get the same mission again, repeat, eck. The fun I had with combat was after I mastered the skills I wanted.
I loved some of the breaks in SWG away from combat but mind and doctor buffs weren't amoung them pre CU. They had become too powerfull and too important to being able to do anything in combat. The doctor buffs had become something you had to have to hunt and while mind buffs were never that important, unless you were going for PvP, the afk player bots giving them out were hardly intresting. The amount of prep time pre CU involved in even going on a little mess hunt was one of the reasons I jumped into space combat so much when JTLS came out, there you could just pop out to have a quick bit of fighting.
You beat me to it... Coronet slowed down after JTL, but it was really CU that killed it.
If it was up to me, I'd have done a few things different with JTL. First was, if you just wanted to travel like the shuttle, then take a shuttle. In a ship, you should launch, fly to the destination and land (it's more StarWarzy!
Fly an X-Wing into the Imperial base on Talus (or a TIE at the Rebel base on Rori), and it should be damaged on landing and you should go overt. Leave your factioned ship there when you leave (or clone!), and it should be reduced to zero condition on all parts and chassis. You can fight your way back in with a bunch of ship repair kits to salvage it, or pay your faction to recover it for you - paying money, faction pts, faction missions, or some combination. The higher the ship level, the more the recovery costs.
Not like it was before JTL. Coronet was always full of people buffing, trading, selling, gathering peeps for groups or just hanging out waiting for the shuttle. The shuttle was a great way to keep people socializing in the game. JTL nerfed that. There was no need for the shuttle anymore except for new players.
Any given time, at least 100 people in Correllia. JTL dwindled those numbers. NGE totally elimnated those numbers altogether.
"I'm not a racist...I only hate stupid people..."-SinisterCB