Originally posted by Rekrul Originally posted by Vastar
If they want to increase profits, create and maintian a decent game. I'd *easily* payout more than $15 per month for a seriously enjoyable game. I'm not saying alternative payment models could never work *and* be as enjoyable, I just haven't been shown any examples yet nor can I come up with one.
Subscription games are history. Service access is the future.
You pay a monthly fee (like internet access fee) to get access to online gaming community.
Then you get into any game for free. You get access to basic gameplay, can interact, explore, do basic dungeons, do basic pvp. You get the taste of the game. All this, 10 - 100 games total, for $15 a month. You'll hop between 10-20 games regularly.
In the games you like, you'll want to do more. If you like crafting, you simply purchase the crafting content, and get access to everything. If you're into pvp, you buy the pvp content. Each of this is a one-time payment of $5.
Content is no longer released as bulky, 50+ quests, 25+ bosses $50 box. You're in a game, want to try something new, you have various storylines available, $5 each. These are added within world monthly, as episodic content across all spectra.
Why is loot problem? SWG for example uses a highly archaic model of elite mobs spawning ultimate must-have weapons. This is due to lack of any forsight in combat design. Take GW for a better example. Lots of weapons, different skins, different mods, but all balanced. While some are more useful to your build, no weapon is unbalancing.
All players start with one character slot. That's enough to play the game. While trying, you can reroll, as long as you can't respec. Along every step of progression you can change your template as you will without regrinding. But once you settle with you character, you'll want to try something more, or have more options. Once again, just buy another slot, $5.
This way, you slowly build your game up as you progress. Rather than being thrown into a bunch of content you'll take weeks to reach (when you start SWG, it'll take weeks before you can even get close to HK), so why pay upfront. What if you get bored of the game halfway through.
Micropayments allow you to purchase the content as needed, and it allows service operator to provide it in small, controllable and frequent updates. In the end, you'll spend just as much money as you do now, but you will do so over a longer period of time.
Take SWG starter kit. People bought it just for ITV. It cost $15. This alone was reason for many not to buy it. But if ITV alone were offered at $5, more people would buy it. If these addons are useful, and in the case of ITV 3x more people buy it because of micropayments, then the operator is making profit.
Why should WoW people pay for pvp, when they are playing on role-playing servers?
Game design will change, as well as the whole service offering. If you claim that WoW is doing just fine with classic subscription model, then keep in mind that when you start developing a game of such scale, it'll be 3 years before it launches. 3 years ago SWG was about to be launched, UO was in NGE and EQ was the king. How has the world changed since then? How will it change in next 3 years? Asian markets, which are lightyears ahead in MMO offerings are already going through huge crisis, since existing models aren't adequate anymore.
I'm not interested in playing several games or even two for that matter. I want one good one that I can really sink my teeth into. In my opinion, if I require more than one none must be good enough.
I have my opinions on how and what loot should be but I brought it up only to emphasize the fact that the "pay for perk" areas mentioned would almost certainly mess with the competition I was talking about. If you want to survive a particular dungeon for example don't go reaching for the old CC, train up your fighting skill on one of the X number of characters everyone is allowed through normal gameplay.
I've also got no problem with weeks of content being made available to me... I would consider that far below the minimum to even get my attention in the first place. I've got the feeling our idea of content differs a bit though. I would view content as my activities. I view it as the things I do with the tools I'm given, not the latest shiney rail they'd like me to follow.
As for WoW and the asian MMORPGs, I'm totally uninterested in either. From what I've heard, they're not what I'm looking for in a game. They can do whatever they like. I want a connection with my character. I want a deep world to live in. I'm not interested in levels, instant gratification and most of all I'm not interested in this world being tied into real life any more than is absolutly needed. If you're right about this "pay for perk" stuff I've seen described being the future and that's where the sheep flock to, I'll be with the wolves in whatever holdout niche company is still doing a decent game.
Really of all the things game makers could be innovative with, the payment method would probably be the last thing I'd like them to spend time on. Look at the top complaints of most players. Is frequency / size / setup of payment even on the map? (Maybe it is but I've not seen it.)
Really of all the things game makers could be innovative with, the payment method would probably be the last thing I'd like them to spend time on. Look at the top complaints of most players. Is frequency / size / setup of payment even on the map? (Maybe it is but I've not seen it.)
Thing is, developing something new and apealing is not easy, it's risky, and competitive. Getting ROI for a completely new game concept is difficult to impossible.
So the industry adjusts where it can, and that's with different payment methods. With games becoming less and less apealing, players jumping between them on monthly basis, the only predictable way to insure the income is to change the revenue model.
Micropayments is one solution to the population migration. But what it comes down to in the end, is whether someone will be able to inherit the WoW's population, or will it simply dissipate and dillute the MMORPG market, once the WoW fad is over. Afterall, it's a know fact, that first MMO is always the best, and the others just fail to bring the same feeling, so playtime dedicated to upcoming titles will be increasingly shorter.
Originally posted by Rekrul Originally posted by Vastar
Really of all the things game makers could be innovative with, the payment method would probably be the last thing I'd like them to spend time on. Look at the top complaints of most players. Is frequency / size / setup of payment even on the map? (Maybe it is but I've not seen it.)
Thing is, developing something new and apealing is not easy, it's risky, and competitive. Getting ROI for a completely new game concept is difficult to impossible.
So the industry adjusts where it can, and that's with different payment methods. With games becoming less and less apealing, players jumping between them on monthly basis, the only predictable way to insure the income is to change the revenue model.
Micropayments is one solution to the population migration. But what it comes down to in the end, is whether someone will be able to inherit the WoW's population, or will it simply dissipate and dillute the MMORPG market, once the WoW fad is over. Afterall, it's a know fact, that first MMO is always the best, and the others just fail to bring the same feeling, so playtime dedicated to upcoming titles will be increasingly shorter.
Payment will essentially be a secondary factor as far as gamers are concerned. The main factors to consider are game-quality and service, if that's good then people will put up with any payment method. I don't want to float between games, I want to play one immersive game that works which will have a long term future without some corporate idiot who wants spangly new features with flashing lights a'glowing.
I'm not too sure about the term "micro-payments" especially since its the term being used by game developers, it's a bit condescending to the consumer. It's going to cost a hardcore gamer or a parent holding their kids accounts, a bloody fortune no matter how many times you break up the payment.
If I can pay a small fixed fee for xboxlive which uses properly tested games that work, or play a sony game that's shockingly bugged and incomplete and for which I have to keep handing my cc details over to each time I want to go somewhere new with guildmates, then for the moment I'll stick to xbox. I wouldn't give the bastards the satisfaction of taking my money any more for what is now a heavily polished turd called the NGE.
Its not fun running 12000 on foot - there and back. Been there, done that. That is why e.g. Diablo and WoW are offering portals and hearthstones. In SWG the natural solution is a pick-up shuttle.
As a player you want to be where the action is ... quickly. That does NOT stop you from exploring and randomly running or driving around. As a 3 year veteran I am now doing the newbie Legacy quest series ... which is VEEEERY long and has dozens of missions. Not because I need the XP but because I want to know how the game is for a newbie (and I am helping quite a few newbies with their missions for a few hours). If that is content ... people can debate that for months. But certainly there is MUCH MUCH more to do than in 2003. And quite a few missions you get from random quest givers dotting the countryside ... and I do NOT mean the old "Bring this ledger to my aunt" NPCs with crappy rewards like broken radios, but side quests linking into the Legacy series.
There are still a lot of bugs, lag is terrible no matter what machine you have, animations are crude (bleeding = fountain of blood .. WTF ?)... but its getting a bit better compared to the NGE debacle of 2005.
Originally posted by milton1970 I'm surprised sony haven't announced a new patch where you log in and you're level 90, pvp ready with a full stomach full of the right foods and equipped with the right gear with your opponents already KD'd and awaiting DB.
Thats Guild Wars, instant max level equipped PvP character ... not SWG.
Originally posted by BadBoyOnFire Shows the progression of the playerbase.
3 years ago = 15 minute shuttletimes (i think it was), 10 minute starship times, no JTL, no speeders... took hours to get anywhere. Players were happy.
2 years ago = 5 minute shuttle times, 5 minute starship times, JTL, speeders. Players were moderately hapy.
1 year ago = 1 minute suttle times and starship times, JTL, speeders. Players were pissed off at how all of the main congratation areas were deserted...
Today = Instant travel everywhere. Everyone hates SoE and the game. End of story.
Its not the shuttle wait time that pissed off people. I like instant travel time now more than 10 min wait times in 2003. Its a chain of bad management decisions that pissed off people, NOT that they make the game more accessible to new players with instant travel devices in every new box.
And not everyone hates SOE or SWG because I see quite a few people online on Naritus server. But the "glory days are gone", thats true. At least they are now correcting the NGE nonsense one patch at a time.
Originally posted by Erillion The point ? The point is having fun, not burning time. Its not fun running 12000 on foot - there and back. Been there, done that. That is why e.g. Diablo and WoW are offering portals and hearthstones. In SWG the natural solution is a pick-up shuttle. As a player you want to be where the action is ... quickly. That does NOT stop you from exploring and randomly running or driving around. As a 3 year veteran I am now doing the newbie Legacy quest series ... which is VEEEERY long and has dozens of missions. Not because I need the XP but because I want to know how the game is for a newbie (and I am helping quite a few newbies with their missions for a few hours). If that is content ... people can debate that for months. But certainly there is MUCH MUCH more to do than in 2003. And quite a few missions you get from random quest givers dotting the countryside ... and I do NOT mean the old "Bring this ledger to my aunt" NPCs with crappy rewards like broken radios, but side quests linking into the Legacy series. There are still a lot of bugs, lag is terrible no matter what machine you have, animations are crude (bleeding = fountain of blood .. WTF ?)... but its getting a bit better compared to the NGE debacle of 2005. Have fun Erillion
And as such, ITV fails miserably by design.
Doesn't work on kash or mustafar (the only planets where people still do some exploration. It only brings you back. You still need to drive for 11k to get to the dungeon. In addition, you cannot use it in cities, so you can walk for 500m-1.5k to the buildable zone where you can call a shuttle.
Considering the "travel anywhere in the galaxy instantly" advertising, this reward has just about the lamest realization possible.
Now a vehicle that brings you to coordinates and can be launched anywhere, including in cities, now that would be an ITV. What's in game now is a cheap gimmick.
>>>You still need to drive for 11k to get to the dungeon.>>>>
Which dungeon requires you to travel 11 k on ANY planet you can use the pickup shuttle ? Even on the adventure planets you will be hard pressed to drive more than 6k.
Originally posted by Erillion >>>You still need to drive for 11k to get to the dungeon.>>>> Which dungeon requires you to travel 11 k on ANY planet you can use the pickup shuttle ? Even on the adventure planets you will be hard pressed to drive more than 6k. Have fun Erillion
The only time I drive that far is by choice just because I want to drive it and see the surface or I am having fun just riding my bantha across Lok or Tatooine.
Rekrul you used to have some good posts I enjoyed reading but honestly all they seem like anymore is any and every chance to find fault.
I agree the Instant Travel shouldn't be in game because many players won't use it in perspective however every player does have the choice to use it or not use it in accordance with good roleplay. I find myself not using mine hardly at all simply because I WANT to still do it the old way.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Rekrul you used to have some good posts I enjoyed reading but honestly all they seem like anymore is any and every chance to find fault.
Allow me to explain. For this, you need to step out of SWG hate mode for a second, forget about instant gratification prejudice, and hopefully get my point.
SOE has a problem. Players are quitting, exit polls are showing game is boring. Among other points: - Too much traveling - Shuttle waits are too long - I cannot use my ship to fly to shuttleports - I cannot put space ports in cities
The issues are known, so several solutions to improve these problems apear. Between adding starports to cities, reducing shuttle wait times, the distances between POIs (not the badge ones) still remain. One proposed solution is ITV.
ITV design: - Remove travel times - Allow convenient, on demand travel to where the player wants to go - Remove dependancy on other players, in case shuttleports aren't available
Proper ITV implementation - Player activates the ITV mode - They select the destination - They apear at destination
Use cases: - Player wants to go to geo-caves, they bring up the ITV interface, select geo-caves, and are transported there - Player wants to quickly go from geo-caves, to join guildies who want to do "Droid Factory Part I" - Player wants to quickly join pvp, using the ITV, they are transported in the vicinity of the engagement - Player needs to sell loot, they use ITV to travel to nearest junk dealer
And this is where the disconnect between player feedback and implementation occurs. As soon as these ideas are finalized (I do hope they at least get this far), they are given to the development team. Response they get is something like that: - We can't spawn player objects in no-build zones - We changed terrain and spawn implementation for mustafar and kashyyyk, and instances are a dirty hack - We can't change the travel interface to select random coordinates - We can't add POIs to travel interface, since they are in two different server processes - We can't allow player to travel from anywhere, since some places are hacked to be indoor, and we can't spawn there - The guy who managed the travel code quit two years ago and it's undocumented so we don't want to change it - We no longer have a user interface designer to change the UI panels - ...
but they propose the following: - We already have a /purchase_ticket command, that was disabled after people exploited it - We already have travel map which we can show on client by copy-pasting the travel code - We'll disable this code for entire kashyyyk and mustafar - All this can be implemented in about 4 hours, by hacking the shuttle terminal messages - We'll re-use the shuttle graphics
And suddenly, the original concept of how a truly useful solution that would add a lot to gameplay is watered down to a quick hack.
Original user requirements are no longer fulfilled: - When player needs to go somewhere, they cannot. Primary motivation for such a vehicle is to quickly get to the desired destination, nobody really cares about getting back - The vehicle as such offers minimal benefits during, for example, Legacy quest, where you need to do Jabba's themepark. You can only use Wayfair as your destination and other shuttles. You still need to drive over 1k each time when going to destination - You cannot quickly jump to your fellow players, since you're still limited with port destinations - Most of PvE activity happens on mustafar and kashyyyk (kash zones are no vehicle even, incredibly boring and horrible time-sink for 10-20k missions) - Other planets are densely populated with shuttles, so the benefit of ITV is once again diminished - Since in pvp getting back to combat is vital, action will gravitate towards easy-to-travel-to locations.
-------------------------
Players ask for faster transportation. They get ITV.
While no real feedback, it's not quite what they had in mind. It leads to personal feelings coming up. If ITV were truly useful, nobody would mind because everyone hates traveling. Experiencing the environment and adding the athmospehere of immersion by artificially limiting traveling options made lots of sense in old game. That game is dead. Might as well make the best steaks you can from its corpse.
But that game is dead. And a large part of discontent comes from such hacks, which attempt to solve true problems, but they always kinda fail. It's just not what players would truly want.
I can guarantee, that adding a true travel system would add a lot. It would help move population around, PvP would become viable in more scenic locations. It would be very starwarsy, especially if they used graphics of your actual ship.
Players rarely bother about various cosmetic details, if an item is useful. But if you go through the history of updates, everything is done only half-way, and while players claim SOE isn't listening, SOE's managers are showing a checklist that says: - Fixed travel problems by introducing ITV.
Managers can honestly show, that they listen to players. But it takes more to make an apealing product than just going through checklists. And this is why SWG is perceived as poor game. Despite adding everything people want, it's always one step short of success.
Players aren't picky or nostalgic. They'll use what's useful and move on, and quickly forget about annoyances. A true instant travel would be an incredibly welcome addition to the game, and completely in line with new faster and more convenient gameplay, as well as changed population dynamics. In addition it would help players spread across the planets, since traveling would no longer be inconvenience, and it would allow fast access to interesting locations (player cities are no longer interesting, and they serve no purpose), it would improve grouping, since more random people would go to POIs, and it would benefit the PvP.
Excellent analysis and a good view from the programmers perspective. Yes, things could be MUCH better. However I find the ITV useful --- ESPECIALLY for returning from the countryside. I usually enjoy driving out to a place where a quest or POI is. I usually DONT like to drive back all the way on essentially the same route - thats where the ITV really shines. And having to step out of the no build zone is not really hard - takes all of (at max) 2 min from the center of the city with the most complex building layout. But of course you are correct in saying that the ITV could be much more, like most things in SWG.
But hey, in one publish errr Chapter I will be able to smuggle for the first time after 3 years as a master smuggler .... OR NOT. *** twichy eye starts blinking madly *** MUHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ** cry ** *** giggle hysterically ***
So I can sit my old green ass down in the old wife beater tee shirt they nerfed with my old grey frills in the middle of Mos-Eisley playing dominos seeing these punk Jedi, and saying,
"Yeah you go on with your bad self. When I was your age, we had to walk down to the Imperial Outpost on Lok from Nym's Stronghold both ways, and we liked it!"
The funny thing was though, we did.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
So there I was, Master Swordsman/Master Rifleman, doc buffed, mind buffed, tummy full of brandy, my best suit of PvE composite armor on, proudly Imperial and TEFed in Mos Eisley, waiting for the damned shuttle omw to grind some NPC rebs for faction.
Next to me a traveller spawned from another starport - Wookie TKA (not quite master, but he had a tier 4 title). Non-hostile.
All of the sudden, he was hostile - turns out he was TEFed Rebel scum, and once he had logged into Eisley his TEF showed.
What ensued was my first PvP fight. I was hardcore PvE and didn't think I'd enjoy PvP. Couldn't avoid it this fight though (at first I thought I might have gotten jumped somehow, like his pals told him I was waiting TEFed at shuttleport or something) - turns out it was just bad luck for him. His buffs had run out, wookies didn't have armor yet, he hadn't mastered any advanced profs yet, and he had no idea I was there. Fought like a lion though though, never gave in and he earned my respect that day.
I learned a few things - one, I enjoyed PvP, the adrenaline rush was unbelieveable. Two, waiting for shuttle wasn't that bad. Got into other PvP fights waiting for shuttles/starships before JTL, even started looking forward to PvP at the 'ports. If I'd had ITV or the quick turn-around shuttles in game now, I might not have had this experience. Good things can come to those who wait.
HIs name was something like Rohrishar.
/saluteRohrishar
SWG Veteran and Refugee, Intrepid server NGE free as of Nov. 22, 2005 Now Playing: World of Warcrack Forum Terrorist
Originally posted by Rekrul Originally posted by Vastar
Really of all the things game makers could be innovative with, the payment method would probably be the last thing I'd like them to spend time on. Look at the top complaints of most players. Is frequency / size / setup of payment even on the map? (Maybe it is but I've not seen it.)
Thing is, developing something new and apealing is not easy, it's risky, and competitive. Getting ROI for a completely new game concept is difficult to impossible.
So the industry adjusts where it can, and that's with different payment methods. With games becoming less and less apealing, players jumping between them on monthly basis, the only predictable way to insure the income is to change the revenue model.
Micropayments is one solution to the population migration. But what it comes down to in the end, is whether someone will be able to inherit the WoW's population, or will it simply dissipate and dillute the MMORPG market, once the WoW fad is over. Afterall, it's a know fact, that first MMO is always the best, and the others just fail to bring the same feeling, so playtime dedicated to upcoming titles will be increasingly shorter.
Alright, so the industry needs to find a way to ensure profits. I don't see where fun is factored in there or why I should be interested in going along with it. Fair enough though, if a new payment method is figured out that doesn't ruin a game I'm really not going to care too much but *again* I just can't picture it happening.
I think what you said about earlier MMORPGs being the best is important. I think about older games I was a part of and I can see that trend but I can also tell you *exactly* why and it's not due to the order in which I played them. If there's more to it than I'm seeing or others are having differet experiences (probably the case), is the only solution to deal with people's reactions to less appealing games found within the billing department? Isn't there any way to simply get players to enjoy themselves enough to stick around?
(On a side note about that ITV, I absolutly hate travel. Waiting, sometimes AFK, to reach my destination... what a nightmare. What I do like however, is meaningful distance. For that I'll be more than happy to put up with travel. Make travel more enjoyable if you like but removing it removes far too much from other things... although in the new SWG in particular I guess it doesn't really matter.)
I think what you said about earlier MMORPGs being the best is important. I think about older games I was a part of and I can see that trend but I can also tell you *exactly* why and it's not due to the order in which I played them. If there's more to it than I'm seeing or others are having differet experiences (probably the case), is the only solution to deal with people's reactions to less appealing games found within the billing department? Isn't there any way to simply get players to enjoy themselves enough to stick around?
No.
You can no longer sell civilization 1, Dune 2 or Monkey Island as new game for $49.99.
Well, you can if you have killer marketing and sales people, but not to mass market. It's not only because of technical aspects, but also because those games, as gameplay oriented as they were, lack in overall perceived content.
This has little to do with actual quality, but more with the changing world. Today, cellphones are omni-present. And yet only several years ago, carrying a brick with 15 minute battery lifetime was a clear sign of luxury people would spend thousands of dollars on.
MMOs are just a small fluke. They need to evolve and adapt. If EQ was a hit long ago, just about everyone today would dismiss it as having crappy graphics, boring world and being a boring grindfest. Generations have changed, not exclusively due to WoW.
Generations in gaming industry are short (they change every few years), partly due to rapid advance of technology. Sometimes having a cool picture in game was considered key selling point. But as technical barriers disapear (Unreal or Half Life engines are pushing photorealism on today's hardware) the true content absense is starting to show.
Some companies have found ways to deal with it. EA is selling sports games. Every year they update the roster and patch the graphics a bit. And their target market loves it, as long as they provide it in due time for superbowl.
The big unknown right now is how the content gap will be filled, or if it needs to be filled at all. There weren't many new game concepts in a while now. There are many interesting experiments in console departments, mostly due to custom controllers. But what are considered computer games today is a rather worn out genre, with same basic gameplay concepts as always. But maybe pushing these old genres in new disguises is really just a matter of marketing, and eventually a good thing.
But whatever changes, historically customers are always getting more bang for their buck. Unlike some would believe, your average customer is not retarded, and can very well manage either $10 or $3241523. Still, some believe that is not iconic, and needs to be simplified, but almost everyone recognizes a bad deal when they see it.
Comments
You pay a monthly fee (like internet access fee) to get access to online gaming community.
Then you get into any game for free. You get access to basic gameplay, can interact, explore, do basic dungeons, do basic pvp. You get the taste of the game. All this, 10 - 100 games total, for $15 a month. You'll hop between 10-20 games regularly.
In the games you like, you'll want to do more. If you like crafting, you simply purchase the crafting content, and get access to everything. If you're into pvp, you buy the pvp content. Each of this is a one-time payment of $5.
Content is no longer released as bulky, 50+ quests, 25+ bosses $50 box. You're in a game, want to try something new, you have various storylines available, $5 each. These are added within world monthly, as episodic content across all spectra.
Why is loot problem? SWG for example uses a highly archaic model of elite mobs spawning ultimate must-have weapons. This is due to lack of any forsight in combat design. Take GW for a better example. Lots of weapons, different skins, different mods, but all balanced. While some are more useful to your build, no weapon is unbalancing.
All players start with one character slot. That's enough to play the game. While trying, you can reroll, as long as you can't respec. Along every step of progression you can change your template as you will without regrinding. But once you settle with you character, you'll want to try something more, or have more options. Once again, just buy another slot, $5.
This way, you slowly build your game up as you progress. Rather than being thrown into a bunch of content you'll take weeks to reach (when you start SWG, it'll take weeks before you can even get close to HK), so why pay upfront. What if you get bored of the game halfway through.
Micropayments allow you to purchase the content as needed, and it allows service operator to provide it in small, controllable and frequent updates. In the end, you'll spend just as much money as you do now, but you will do so over a longer period of time.
Take SWG starter kit. People bought it just for ITV. It cost $15. This alone was reason for many not to buy it. But if ITV alone were offered at $5, more people would buy it. If these addons are useful, and in the case of ITV 3x more people buy it because of micropayments, then the operator is making profit.
Why should WoW people pay for pvp, when they are playing on role-playing servers?
Game design will change, as well as the whole service offering. If you claim that WoW is doing just fine with classic subscription model, then keep in mind that when you start developing a game of such scale, it'll be 3 years before it launches. 3 years ago SWG was about to be launched, UO was in NGE and EQ was the king. How has the world changed since then? How will it change in next 3 years? Asian markets, which are lightyears ahead in MMO offerings are already going through huge crisis, since existing models aren't adequate anymore.
I'm not interested in playing several games or even two for that matter. I want one good one that I can really sink my teeth into. In my opinion, if I require more than one none must be good enough.
I have my opinions on how and what loot should be but I brought it up only to emphasize the fact that the "pay for perk" areas mentioned would almost certainly mess with the competition I was talking about. If you want to survive a particular dungeon for example don't go reaching for the old CC, train up your fighting skill on one of the X number of characters everyone is allowed through normal gameplay.
I've also got no problem with weeks of content being made available to me... I would consider that far below the minimum to even get my attention in the first place. I've got the feeling our idea of content differs a bit though. I would view content as my activities. I view it as the things I do with the tools I'm given, not the latest shiney rail they'd like me to follow.
As for WoW and the asian MMORPGs, I'm totally uninterested in either. From what I've heard, they're not what I'm looking for in a game. They can do whatever they like. I want a connection with my character. I want a deep world to live in. I'm not interested in levels, instant gratification and most of all I'm not interested in this world being tied into real life any more than is absolutly needed. If you're right about this "pay for perk" stuff I've seen described being the future and that's where the sheep flock to, I'll be with the wolves in whatever holdout niche company is still doing a decent game.
Really of all the things game makers could be innovative with, the payment method would probably be the last thing I'd like them to spend time on. Look at the top complaints of most players. Is frequency / size / setup of payment even on the map? (Maybe it is but I've not seen it.)
So the industry adjusts where it can, and that's with different payment methods. With games becoming less and less apealing, players jumping between them on monthly basis, the only predictable way to insure the income is to change the revenue model.
Micropayments is one solution to the population migration. But what it comes down to in the end, is whether someone will be able to inherit the WoW's population, or will it simply dissipate and dillute the MMORPG market, once the WoW fad is over. Afterall, it's a know fact, that first MMO is always the best, and the others just fail to bring the same feeling, so playtime dedicated to upcoming titles will be increasingly shorter.
So the industry adjusts where it can, and that's with different payment methods. With games becoming less and less apealing, players jumping between them on monthly basis, the only predictable way to insure the income is to change the revenue model.
Micropayments is one solution to the population migration. But what it comes down to in the end, is whether someone will be able to inherit the WoW's population, or will it simply dissipate and dillute the MMORPG market, once the WoW fad is over. Afterall, it's a know fact, that first MMO is always the best, and the others just fail to bring the same feeling, so playtime dedicated to upcoming titles will be increasingly shorter.
Payment will essentially be a secondary factor as far as gamers are concerned. The main factors to consider are game-quality and service, if that's good then people will put up with any payment method. I don't want to float between games, I want to play one immersive game that works which will have a long term future without some corporate idiot who wants spangly new features with flashing lights a'glowing.
I'm not too sure about the term "micro-payments" especially since its the term being used by game developers, it's a bit condescending to the consumer. It's going to cost a hardcore gamer or a parent holding their kids accounts, a bloody fortune no matter how many times you break up the payment.
If I can pay a small fixed fee for xboxlive which uses properly tested games that work, or play a sony game that's shockingly bugged and incomplete and for which I have to keep handing my cc details over to each time I want to go somewhere new with guildmates, then for the moment I'll stick to xbox. I wouldn't give the bastards the satisfaction of taking my money any more for what is now a heavily polished turd called the NGE.
The point ?
The point is having fun, not burning time.
Its not fun running 12000 on foot - there and back. Been there, done that. That is why e.g. Diablo and WoW are offering portals and hearthstones. In SWG the natural solution is a pick-up shuttle.
As a player you want to be where the action is ... quickly. That does NOT stop you from exploring and randomly running or driving around. As a 3 year veteran I am now doing the newbie Legacy quest series ... which is VEEEERY long and has dozens of missions. Not because I need the XP but because I want to know how the game is for a newbie (and I am helping quite a few newbies with their missions for a few hours). If that is content ... people can debate that for months. But certainly there is MUCH MUCH more to do than in 2003. And quite a few missions you get from random quest givers dotting the countryside ... and I do NOT mean the old "Bring this ledger to my aunt" NPCs with crappy rewards like broken radios, but side quests linking into the Legacy series.
There are still a lot of bugs, lag is terrible no matter what machine you have, animations are crude (bleeding = fountain of blood .. WTF ?)... but its getting a bit better compared to the NGE debacle of 2005.
Have fun
Erillion
Thats Guild Wars, instant max level equipped PvP character ... not SWG.
Have fun
Erillion
Its not the shuttle wait time that pissed off people. I like instant travel time now more than 10 min wait times in 2003. Its a chain of bad management decisions that pissed off people, NOT that they make the game more accessible to new players with instant travel devices in every new box.
And not everyone hates SOE or SWG because I see quite a few people online on Naritus server. But the "glory days are gone", thats true. At least they are now correcting the NGE nonsense one patch at a time.
Have fun
Erillion
Doesn't work on kash or mustafar (the only planets where people still do some exploration.
It only brings you back. You still need to drive for 11k to get to the dungeon. In addition, you cannot use it in cities, so you can walk for 500m-1.5k to the buildable zone where you can call a shuttle.
Considering the "travel anywhere in the galaxy instantly" advertising, this reward has just about the lamest realization possible.
Now a vehicle that brings you to coordinates and can be launched anywhere, including in cities, now that would be an ITV. What's in game now is a cheap gimmick.
>>>You still need to drive for 11k to get to the dungeon.>>>>
Which dungeon requires you to travel 11 k on ANY planet you can use the pickup shuttle ? Even on the adventure planets you will be hard pressed to drive more than 6k.
Have fun
Erillion
The only time I drive that far is by choice just because I want to drive it and see the surface or I am having fun just riding my bantha across Lok or Tatooine.
Rekrul you used to have some good posts I enjoyed reading but honestly all they seem like anymore is any and every chance to find fault.
I agree the Instant Travel shouldn't be in game because many players won't use it in perspective however every player does have the choice to use it or not use it in accordance with good roleplay. I find myself not using mine hardly at all simply because I WANT to still do it the old way.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Rekrul you used to have some good posts I enjoyed reading but honestly all they seem like anymore is any and every chance to find fault.
Allow me to explain. For this, you need to step out of SWG hate mode for a second, forget about instant gratification prejudice, and hopefully get my point.
SOE has a problem. Players are quitting, exit polls are showing game is boring. Among other points:
- Too much traveling
- Shuttle waits are too long
- I cannot use my ship to fly to shuttleports
- I cannot put space ports in cities
The issues are known, so several solutions to improve these problems apear. Between adding starports to cities, reducing shuttle wait times, the distances between POIs (not the badge ones) still remain. One proposed solution is ITV.
ITV design:
- Remove travel times
- Allow convenient, on demand travel to where the player wants to go
- Remove dependancy on other players, in case shuttleports aren't available
Proper ITV implementation
- Player activates the ITV mode
- They select the destination
- They apear at destination
Use cases:
- Player wants to go to geo-caves, they bring up the ITV interface, select geo-caves, and are transported there
- Player wants to quickly go from geo-caves, to join guildies who want to do "Droid Factory Part I"
- Player wants to quickly join pvp, using the ITV, they are transported in the vicinity of the engagement
- Player needs to sell loot, they use ITV to travel to nearest junk dealer
And this is where the disconnect between player feedback and implementation occurs. As soon as these ideas are finalized (I do hope they at least get this far), they are given to the development team. Response they get is something like that:
- We can't spawn player objects in no-build zones
- We changed terrain and spawn implementation for mustafar and kashyyyk, and instances are a dirty hack
- We can't change the travel interface to select random coordinates
- We can't add POIs to travel interface, since they are in two different server processes
- We can't allow player to travel from anywhere, since some places are hacked to be indoor, and we can't spawn there
- The guy who managed the travel code quit two years ago and it's undocumented so we don't want to change it
- We no longer have a user interface designer to change the UI panels
- ...
but they propose the following:
- We already have a /purchase_ticket command, that was disabled after people exploited it
- We already have travel map which we can show on client by copy-pasting the travel code
- We'll disable this code for entire kashyyyk and mustafar
- All this can be implemented in about 4 hours, by hacking the shuttle terminal messages
- We'll re-use the shuttle graphics
And suddenly, the original concept of how a truly useful solution that would add a lot to gameplay is watered down to a quick hack.
Original user requirements are no longer fulfilled:
- When player needs to go somewhere, they cannot. Primary motivation for such a vehicle is to quickly get to the desired destination, nobody really cares about getting back
- The vehicle as such offers minimal benefits during, for example, Legacy quest, where you need to do Jabba's themepark. You can only use Wayfair as your destination and other shuttles. You still need to drive over 1k each time when going to destination
- You cannot quickly jump to your fellow players, since you're still limited with port destinations
- Most of PvE activity happens on mustafar and kashyyyk (kash zones are no vehicle even, incredibly boring and horrible time-sink for 10-20k missions)
- Other planets are densely populated with shuttles, so the benefit of ITV is once again diminished
- Since in pvp getting back to combat is vital, action will gravitate towards easy-to-travel-to locations.
-------------------------
Players ask for faster transportation.
They get ITV.
While no real feedback, it's not quite what they had in mind. It leads to personal feelings coming up. If ITV were truly useful, nobody would mind because everyone hates traveling. Experiencing the environment and adding the athmospehere of immersion by artificially limiting traveling options made lots of sense in old game.
That game is dead. Might as well make the best steaks you can from its corpse.
But that game is dead. And a large part of discontent comes from such hacks, which attempt to solve true problems, but they always kinda fail. It's just not what players would truly want.
I can guarantee, that adding a true travel system would add a lot. It would help move population around, PvP would become viable in more scenic locations. It would be very starwarsy, especially if they used graphics of your actual ship.
Players rarely bother about various cosmetic details, if an item is useful. But if you go through the history of updates, everything is done only half-way, and while players claim SOE isn't listening, SOE's managers are showing a checklist that says: - Fixed travel problems by introducing ITV.
Managers can honestly show, that they listen to players. But it takes more to make an apealing product than just going through checklists. And this is why SWG is perceived as poor game. Despite adding everything people want, it's always one step short of success.
Players aren't picky or nostalgic. They'll use what's useful and move on, and quickly forget about annoyances. A true instant travel would be an incredibly welcome addition to the game, and completely in line with new faster and more convenient gameplay, as well as changed population dynamics. In addition it would help players spread across the planets, since traveling would no longer be inconvenience, and it would allow fast access to interesting locations (player cities are no longer interesting, and they serve no purpose), it would improve grouping, since more random people would go to POIs, and it would benefit the PvP.
Excellent analysis and a good view from the programmers perspective. Yes, things could be MUCH better. However I find the ITV useful --- ESPECIALLY for returning from the countryside. I usually enjoy driving out to a place where a quest or POI is. I usually DONT like to drive back all the way on essentially the same route - thats where the ITV really shines. And having to step out of the no build zone is not really hard - takes all of (at max) 2 min from the center of the city with the most complex building layout. But of course you are correct in saying that the ITV could be much more, like most things in SWG.
But hey, in one publish errr Chapter I will be able to smuggle for the first time after 3 years as a master smuggler .... OR NOT. *** twichy eye starts blinking madly *** MUHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ** cry ** *** giggle hysterically ***
Have fun
Erillion
Why the ITV?
So I can sit my old green ass down in the old wife beater tee shirt they nerfed with my old grey frills in the middle of Mos-Eisley playing dominos seeing these punk Jedi, and saying,
"Yeah you go on with your bad self. When I was your age, we had to walk down to the Imperial Outpost on Lok from Nym's Stronghold both ways, and we liked it!"
The funny thing was though, we did.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Just a memory in regards to the ITV........
So there I was, Master Swordsman/Master Rifleman, doc buffed, mind buffed, tummy full of brandy, my best suit of PvE composite armor on, proudly Imperial and TEFed in Mos Eisley, waiting for the damned shuttle omw to grind some NPC rebs for faction.
Next to me a traveller spawned from another starport - Wookie TKA (not quite master, but he had a tier 4 title). Non-hostile.
All of the sudden, he was hostile - turns out he was TEFed Rebel scum, and once he had logged into Eisley his TEF showed.
What ensued was my first PvP fight. I was hardcore PvE and didn't think I'd enjoy PvP. Couldn't avoid it this fight though (at first I thought I might have gotten jumped somehow, like his pals told him I was waiting TEFed at shuttleport or something) - turns out it was just bad luck for him. His buffs had run out, wookies didn't have armor yet, he hadn't mastered any advanced profs yet, and he had no idea I was there. Fought like a lion though though, never gave in and he earned my respect that day.
I learned a few things - one, I enjoyed PvP, the adrenaline rush was unbelieveable. Two, waiting for shuttle wasn't that bad. Got into other PvP fights waiting for shuttles/starships before JTL, even started looking forward to PvP at the 'ports. If I'd had ITV or the quick turn-around shuttles in game now, I might not have had this experience. Good things can come to those who wait.
HIs name was something like Rohrishar.
/saluteRohrishar
SWG Veteran and Refugee, Intrepid server
NGE free as of Nov. 22, 2005
Now Playing: World of Warcrack
Forum Terrorist
So the industry adjusts where it can, and that's with different payment methods. With games becoming less and less apealing, players jumping between them on monthly basis, the only predictable way to insure the income is to change the revenue model.
Micropayments is one solution to the population migration. But what it comes down to in the end, is whether someone will be able to inherit the WoW's population, or will it simply dissipate and dillute the MMORPG market, once the WoW fad is over. Afterall, it's a know fact, that first MMO is always the best, and the others just fail to bring the same feeling, so playtime dedicated to upcoming titles will be increasingly shorter.
Alright, so the industry needs to find a way to ensure profits. I don't see where fun is factored in there or why I should be interested in going along with it. Fair enough though, if a new payment method is figured out that doesn't ruin a game I'm really not going to care too much but *again* I just can't picture it happening.
I think what you said about earlier MMORPGs being the best is important. I think about older games I was a part of and I can see that trend but I can also tell you *exactly* why and it's not due to the order in which I played them. If there's more to it than I'm seeing or others are having differet experiences (probably the case), is the only solution to deal with people's reactions to less appealing games found within the billing department? Isn't there any way to simply get players to enjoy themselves enough to stick around?
(On a side note about that ITV, I absolutly hate travel. Waiting, sometimes AFK, to reach my destination... what a nightmare. What I do like however, is meaningful distance. For that I'll be more than happy to put up with travel. Make travel more enjoyable if you like but removing it removes far too much from other things... although in the new SWG in particular I guess it doesn't really matter.)
No.
You can no longer sell civilization 1, Dune 2 or Monkey Island as new game for $49.99.
Well, you can if you have killer marketing and sales people, but not to mass market. It's not only because of technical aspects, but also because those games, as gameplay oriented as they were, lack in overall perceived content.
This has little to do with actual quality, but more with the changing world. Today, cellphones are omni-present. And yet only several years ago, carrying a brick with 15 minute battery lifetime was a clear sign of luxury people would spend thousands of dollars on.
MMOs are just a small fluke. They need to evolve and adapt. If EQ was a hit long ago, just about everyone today would dismiss it as having crappy graphics, boring world and being a boring grindfest. Generations have changed, not exclusively due to WoW.
Generations in gaming industry are short (they change every few years), partly due to rapid advance of technology. Sometimes having a cool picture in game was considered key selling point. But as technical barriers disapear (Unreal or Half Life engines are pushing photorealism on today's hardware) the true content absense is starting to show.
Some companies have found ways to deal with it. EA is selling sports games. Every year they update the roster and patch the graphics a bit. And their target market loves it, as long as they provide it in due time for superbowl.
The big unknown right now is how the content gap will be filled, or if it needs to be filled at all. There weren't many new game concepts in a while now. There are many interesting experiments in console departments, mostly due to custom controllers. But what are considered computer games today is a rather worn out genre, with same basic gameplay concepts as always. But maybe pushing these old genres in new disguises is really just a matter of marketing, and eventually a good thing.
But whatever changes, historically customers are always getting more bang for their buck. Unlike some would believe, your average customer is not retarded, and can very well manage either $10 or $3241523. Still, some believe that is not iconic, and needs to be simplified, but almost everyone recognizes a bad deal when they see it.