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Logical argument thread - a mock rendition
Kriminal99
Member Posts: 377
Kriminal99: 1 + 1 = 2
ianubisi: I don't like it, therefore it must be wrong.
hercules: 1 tastes bad to me, therefore it must be wrong. OMG its like BUTTER, how can u not see?!?!
grubar: dude hercules no its not its like a pickle
omol: for you 1+1=2, for some other guy 1+1=3.. It's a matter of opinion, and opinions can't be wrong. OMG Dont you know what an opinion is?!?!
UOandrommie: Some people don't like pinco commie tree hugging hippie 1's therefore it must be wrong.
ramonski: 1 is not 1 its one, therefore it must be wrong. Same goes for 1) blah blah blah blah...
heartless: this argument is bugged
koltrain: You stopped in the middle of this argument to go to the bathroom, therefore I will not dignify it with a response.
zauvvir: there is no 1 in quantum physics
horrid: its not that simple
mr vice: yeah I had a 1 and another 1 of something once and then I had 2. But what if you had 2 and a 1 of something?
papasody: I play everquest too much, therefore it must be wrong.
Kriminal99: oO uh guys none of this makes any sense...
heartless: omg what r u a math expert all of the sudden?!?!
ianubisi: There are more of us than you, therefore it must be wrong.
Kriminal99: but..
mr vice: POLL : IS KRIM TEH WRONG?
Kriminal99: 
ianubisi: self-important egoist!!!!
TmCc: Kriminal what do you say we just pk these fools
Kriminal99: Hmm an interesting prospect
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Comments
lol. Let it go...
I don't really agree with your summary, (just slightly biased) but it is a very well written chuckle.
Kriminal99: x + y + z = 3. And I say that x, y and z all equal 1. I can't prove it, but because I worded it in a way that is crazy and vague you can't prove x, y and z are not equal to one. And everytime you have a logical argument for x I will say that it equals 1, even if it doesn't.
But, whatever you do, do not let it go. You are doing a good job of getting nothing accomplished. I like that we can post one paragraph retorts and you respond with multiple pages of craziness. It has been very fun to read your wit (or lack there of).
LOL it's funny man... not at all acurate, but it's funny.
It's like watching a flagellant preaching salvation while whipping himself.
You, sir, are an extremely amusing fellow.
Kriminal99: 1 + 1 = 2
A known, proven, fact.
To be continually fun for me, Kriminal99, a MORPG must be PVP based.
A true statement of a known opinion.
To be continually fun a MORPG must be PVP based.
A false statement that can not be proven or substatiated. For that matter, it really can't be disproven, but it is still a false statement since I know of at least 1 person that this statement does not hold true for...me.
Have you spoken with every player of every MMORPG? Can you define what is fun for the rest of the world? Is it possible for other people to have an opinion that differs from yours?
Kriminal99: Everyone should eat hostess fruit pies.
ianubisi: I don't like pie, therefor you must be wrong.
hercules: pie tastes bad to me, therefore it must be wrong. OMG its like all gooey, how can u not see?!?!
grubar: dude hercules no its not its like a pastry
omol: for you pies are tastey, for some other guy they aren't... It's a matter of opinion, and opinions can't be wrong. OMG Dont you know what an opinion is?!?!
UOandrommie: Some people don't like pinco commie tree hugging hippie pie's therefore it must be wrong.
ramonski: pi is not pie, its 3.1416..., therefore it must be wrong. Same goes for p. pi r squared. No, wait, cake are square, pie are ROUND...
heartless: this argument is bugged
koltrain: You stopped in the middle of this argument to go to the bathroom, therefore I will not dignify it with a response.
zauvvir: there is no pie in the Matrix
horrid: its not that simple
mr vice: yeah I had a pie and another pie of something once and then I had 2 pies. But what if you had 2 pies and a cake or something?
papasody: I eat cake too much to like pie, therefore it must be wrong.
Kriminal99: oO uh guys none of this makes any sense...
heartless: omg what r u a baking expert all of the sudden?!?!
ianubisi: There are more of us than you, therefore it must be wrong.
Kriminal99: but..
mr vice: POLL : IS KRIMINAL99 WRONG?
Kriminal99:
ianubisi: self-important egoist!!!!
TmCc: Kriminal what do you say we just shove some pies down these fools throats
Kriminal99: Hmm an interesting prospect
Task like I already said if you don't like premise 1 then the argument didn't hold true for you. You really would be one of few to make that claim. Anyways premise 1 wasn't really even nessecary to the argument, I realized and removed it. There still might be one premise, ie the one on setbacks or when gambling is fun that you might not agree with.
The truth is I know some about psychology, and have checked the ideas behind these premises among many people that either understand psychology or have played video games alot and I know are thoughtful people. I'm really not interested in some guy jumping up and down because he doesn't like the way basic psychological principles sounds and wants to argue by saying that for him its cause "so and so" which is the exact same thing as the premise in different words. What I would be interested in is a thoughtful person or someone more experienced in psychology than me to point out an error or assumption in my argument. A good sign that someone is that person is that they wouldn't be resorting to immaturity and anger out fear that they didn't know what they were talking about....
The statement that the conclusion of my argument is false ITSELF is false. You say it doesn't hold true for you. Why? Because you don't like any pvp you have experienced. That is the basis behind your statement. You are generalizing to pvp that you haven't experienced. That makes the statement false. That simple.
As omol so clearly pointed (hopefully to himself as well) out opinions can not be made about things there are a definite answer to. What is fun and not fun is not dictated by the experiencing person. I can't tell myself its fun to shoot myself in the foot and having sex is not, and then that becomes truth. What is fun to any person is a definite fact that cannot be changed, and can be explained by psychology. Even if the person explained doesn't know the explanation himself.
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Did you take classes to be this dumb or does it come naturally to you?
What is fun to any person is a definite fact that cannot be changed
That's what we have been saying. HOWEVER, you take it a step further and say that was is fun FOR YOU is a definite fact to be fun for EVERYONE ELSE. You don't know me, you don't know everyone, and you can't make any generalized statement that ANY game MUST have ANY aspect in order to be "fun".
You say it doesn't hold true for you. Why? Because you don't like any pvp you have experienced. That is the basis behind your statement. You are generalizing to pvp that you haven't experienced. That makes the statement false. That simple.
No, I say that your statement doesn't hold true for me because I can find fun and enjoyment in other aspects of a game and I could not care less if there is PvP or not. I have been involved in some PvP, and I enjoyed it. I have been involved in some PvP that I did not enjoy. But PvP is not the end-all, be-all in a game, for me. I, unlike yourself, do not base my fun in any game on PvP, or lack thereof. Your statement, to be continually fun a MORPG must be PVP based, does not hold true for everyone, therefor, it is a false statement. Once again, if you were to say to be continually fun for me, Kriminal99, a MORPG must be PVP based, then it becomes a true statement, since we all know how you feel about it. At least, how you feel about it today. 5 years from now, you may find PvP to be boring, in which case, the statement becomes false. People change. Who knows?
What is fun and not fun is not dictated by the experiencing person.
And how is it not? If you say something is fun, and I say I do not find that to be fun, how is my opinion wrong? As the experiencing person, how can I not say what is fun and what is not? You , sir, are in essence talling me that if you wanted my opinion, you would give it to me. I am telling you my opinion is my opinion whether you like it or not.
I can't tell myself its fun to shoot myself in the foot and having sex is not, and then that becomes truth.
Actually, yes, you can, if you wanted to.
What is fun to any person is a definite fact that cannot be changed, and can be explained by psychology.
It may be explainable with psychology but that does not make it unchangable. People can change how they feel, how they percieve things, what they like and dislike, at any time. This makes them feelings and opinions, not facts. You are trying to say that how I grew up has total bearing on how Ipercieve fun, and how I percieve fun can not be changed and is an undisputable fact. I say you are wrong, what I percieve to be fun today is NOT what I percieved fun to be last year, or 10 years ago, or 20 years ago, or 30 years ago. Therefor how I percieve fun can NOT be defined as a fact, since a FACT is undisputable and unchangable. If it in NOT unchangable, then it no longer is defined as a fact, it is defined as a theory or an opinion.
Now, are you willing to admit that you need to revise your statement or are you going to continue to dig yourself a deeper hole?
What, exactly, is the point?
Kriminal99, your main problem here is that you are basing this whole thing on Psychology. Psychology is not some end all be all proven thing that can explain every event in the world.
Just because your Psychology book says something does not make it fact. If I wrote a book and called it a Psychology book, that does not make everything in it fact.
You must be in college and studying to be a Psychologist or something, am I right? You have a lot more studying to do. You cannot just come up with a concept and decide it is right and then try to push it down people's throats. If experienced Psychologists had all the answers, then all the crazy people in the world would be healed.
But the biggest flaw in your logic is that you are mixing facts with feelings and emotions. You can't do that. One person's fun is not the same as another person's fun. One of your text books might say so, but it is wrong.
Lets try this angle, give me your thoughts.
I love video games and think they are fun. My wife won't even hold an XBox controller, she hates it. Now, lets say you and a bunch of the best programmers in the world come up with the PERFECT PvP system for a game. Are you saying my wife is guaranteed to find the game fun? Of course not.
Now, you can't warp your original thought and say that it would be guaranteed fun for people who play video games. Any video game. That wouldn't be true either. You are going to find people that enjoy playing Solitaire on their computer, that is a game. But many of those people are not going to like playing your perfect PvP game either. There is this old guy here at the office who has played thousands and thousands of games of FreeCell. He finds it CONTINUALLY fun, and there is absolutely no PvP in it. (And I do mean thousands, he started at game #1 and is now on around 17,000).
There is no way in hell you can say what is going to be fun for somebody. All a company that makes a game can do is hope they come up with a system that is fun for enough people that they turn a profit. And with some luck, turn a large profit.
I was going to comment earlier when i read this but i wanted to see some reactions first.
I must say this is one of the most amusing threads I have read yet. Your approach was well rendered. However, physcology isnt something that can be defined in any manner. Like an opinion, its unique and cannot be proven.
I did wonder why i wasn't included, but then maybe it was a good thing
Keep the laughter alive....
- Malkavian
"When you find yourself falling into madness... Dive." - Malkavian Proverb
"When you find yourself sinking into Madness, dive"
Heh I glad we can all keep a sense of humor in all of this.
Anyway 2 + 0 = 2 also..
And pi cannot be rounded...er ummm..hmmm..let me dwell on this......
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
/chuckle
Actually, there is nothing round about a hostess fruit pie. They are sorta rectangular shaped, are they not? But it's kind of awkward to say pie are rectangular
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Omol da'Ox
The Blooded
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Omol da'Ox
Task Im not trying to cram premise 1 down your throat, if you don't agree you don't agree. Noone took premise 1 in the old argument and said "I don't agree with this" except for you, and ramonski didn't like the way it was worded but said pretty much the same thing. The idea was if you didn't see this you just ignore the argument. The fact you didn't agree certainly does not nullify the argument however, because you may not have any clue what makes the game fun for you or you may be lying. I didn't get that just from psychology, I study psychology alot but I actually got it more from playing video games since I was a kid and talking to other people who play video games. Then what I learned in psychology just went along with it. But anyways premise 1 I realized (with ramonksis help) wasn't even nessecary to the argument, I had only introduced it to try and give an explanation for why people get bored of stretched MMO content or extreme time gaps between levels. But since more people probably know that to be true by itself without a psychological reasoning (even though many people do believe in that psychological reasoning) I just left that part out.
But still psychology still comes into play, or at least a knowledge of gambling for other premises in the thread (which I changed upon realizing I had assumed people would always consiously consider gambles) and some understanding of anger/ random punishment. It would be rediculous to come into a thread which deals with a game being fun or not and A) expect it not to deal with psychology and
expect to be able to comment meaningfully on it without either careful thought of feelings or a knowledge of pscyhology.
I can tell you that there are many many sciences which have accomplished many many things that deal with how people behave, and users of those sciences do not throw away everything they know because someone doesn't like the way its worded or how the scientist sounds and then say anything to discredit the science...
@malk
sorry I left you out, I must not have checked far enough in the thread to see a post from you.
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This whole argument is pointless.
Kriminal, assuming that your logic is correct, there is no way to prove so. As you've stated yourself: such PvP system does not yet exist. So all you have is a theory based on your own personal experience and taste.
It's like arguing whether or not extra terrestrial life exists. No one will know for sure until we see some valid proof.
I hope you know that every time you fling a childish insult and insert meaningless "dig a hole" propaganda you only make it more clear how deeply you know and fear your arguments make no sense and are hollow....
Anyways.. That is most definitely NOT what you have been trying to say. This entire time you have been going on as if you could just wave your hand and say I don't like this, and then you will not like it, thereby nullifying any knowledge I have about what makes things fun. Now you claim to agree that what you like and dislike cannot be changed. This is good.
Let me just take a different approach for a minute, and make the assumption that you are calm headed to know it wouldn't make sense to claim that fun is not fun. In this case what we are having is a lack of communication. I am saying that a specific thing is fun itself. Considering the way its worded, your argument therefore becomes fun itself is not fun, which obviously makes no sense.
If you are trying to claim that what I am talking about is NOT fun itself, (respect/admiration not nessecarily from a real person in respect to video games) then telling me that I can't tell people what is fun to them does not communicate this effectively.
Now obviously I know that there are several distinct feelings which one might call fun. Tasting something really good (10 distinct tastes, stuff tastes good when you need it). Realization, fight or flight, respect/admiration, stuff like recreational drugs or chems in chocolate or from sex and maybe others I forgot. Only 3 of these can be actually caused by a video game as we know it. 1 of them cannot be controlled perpetually by the game developer, and thats realization. The other 2 can be. And that is what I am trying to effectively do.
Now once again you are looking at my argument the wrong way. You are looking at the conclusion to my argument as if it was a premise. If you want to dispute my argument, argue with the premises. If you can't argue with the premises, and they nessecitate the conclusion logically, then you can't say anything about the argument like it or not.
Again you say a person can dictate to themselves what is fun. Let me try my new method of arguing with people of your type... Obviously you cannot REALLY believe that a person cannot tell themselves anger is fun and fun makes them angry. So let me try to translate your argument it to more meaningful terms. You are saying that a person might say... be irritated that their roomate is playing their music too loud when they are playing an mmorpg and then they wont have fun playing it. Obviously I am not going to worry about that. If this is close to what you are trying to say, I will let you come up with an exact example rather than make a million myself and explain why each doesn't contradict the argument...
However in general regarding pvp there is something else I would like to say since you still seem to have the idea stuck in your head that pvp is nessecarily bad to some people. What exactly do you think pvp is? When you talk about pve, in a sense you are STILL talking about pvp. A person designed the program code behind the mobs you fight.. What about tabletop rpgs? A person has to directly control the mobs here... In fact how do you KNOW for absolutely sure, that the mobs in those games are not, or sometimes are not controlled by people? You don't. The only real difference between PVE and PVP is that PVE is designed to let you win....
From this idea alone, it can be said that ANY game cannot exist without some form of either pvp or pure luck gambling (the only 2 things which can allow an uncertaine outcome, and the skill aspect of skill dependent gambling is pvp against the designer of the game)... and pure luck gambling is not fun unless you equate the thing you can get through it to love/respect
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LOL
Holy cow, what a load of crap. Man, you gotta quit.
You should change your nickname to Sigmund.
Now yo are trying to say that all parts of the game are PvP, even the PvE parts, so your argument must be right.
OK... I agree. Since PvE is PvP, then as long as they make a game that is only PvE (which you say is a form of PvP), then people can like it continually.
You are talking yourself into circles.
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