As someone who has played FFXI I have to say that I am in favor of having instanced areas. FF was 100% common areas when I played. I don't know if they've added instances or not but I know that I really dislike common areas. If it wasn't a bot camping stropher chyme and other NM's 24/7/365 it was noobs training stuff all the time in the dunes or Yhoator or Yuhtunga Jungle. Even with no instances, it was still hard to find exp parties once you got past Qufim(which is about level 24) and if you did get into a party it's not guaranteed to be a good one. I think instances are great because that means that you'll be doing most, if not all of your exp gain and raids with your guild. In my experiences that's not a bad thing. I had a much better time, not to mention a lot more success, with my guildmates than with a bunch of people I didn't know.
That said, I think that a game with a good mix of common areas as well as instanced areas is the best way to go. It would make both sides happy. Have some quests that are instanced, have some that aren't, have some raids that are instanced, have some that aren't and everyone will be happy. You can party with nonguildmates in the common areas and if they're any good then you can invite them into your guild/clan/whatever and then go do the instanced stuff with them and forget about the noobs.
Personally I hate Instancing for anything other than raiding. Raid mobs in Instances are nice, due to you wont have the top 3 or 4 guild in the game controling the game and bloking others from gettting to where they are.
But then again the whole raid thing is getting worn out imo. every game is starting to feel exactly the same, grind to max lvl, then sit around waiting for raids. After so many raids normal groups just don't interest you due to everything you have is better than anything the group people will ever see.
They really need to make more non fighting material out there or more involed events to do more than go kill a monster for a few drops for the few uber players on that game.
As for normal zones being instanced it really kills the feeling of Mass Multiplayer, and feels more like playing diablo with 5 friends. Even in the eq 1 of killing in to a "Camp" and trying to hold that "camp" was not such a bad thing. For 1 it really helped control the economy some. Just think if all you need to do to get item x is get a group and run Random instance zone to get that item which even if it is the rare drop from that mission its not as rare as if there is only ever one version of the zone with one shot at getting that said item. which make that item hold value.
I also agree with what is stated earlier that there really needs to be a decent game to come out with skill needed, and mass customization to the characters. I hate games where you look around and all the players have the same armor and weapons and such. everyone looks basically the same. Everyone has the same spells and abilities and plays basically the same. Their are some very basic ways to do this but then again they would not be WOW copies.
That and instancing does hurt social dynamics of a game but not as much as poor game design. If you want a strong community make it so people will need to rely on many other people to reach thier goals and get rid of Loot= success genre of game.
Was just going over a searched topic of Raids when I came upon this thread..
Why did developers create the raid concept?
1. To challange players who maxed the level cap something to do and work for
2. To give content to a guild and thereby reinforce community
Whether it is instanced or not, can we say that the major games succeeded in doing these things?
Now another question - Did they do it "right"?
1. Judging from what i read, especially from the Spokesperson of Anti-Raiding, Anofalye, the raid concept was a disaster. Why?
IHO, it is the loot Stupid!
Raid gear created by developers was designed to the be the best because it was supposed to be the ultimate challange. No 6 man team could dare enter the heart of the enemies lair and wipe out all adversaries including the Boss of the whole area, so ergo, whomever does it, gets the best gear.
This is where developers have stung the non raiding community. Up until this point of a players gaming life, they were completing missions, beating back serious threats, and earning a good living doing so. However, the game "ended" and you had two choices, challange your character in PvP or raid.
to me, these are different games than what I have been playing for the past 49 (or 59) levels. Lets face it, there are sincere differences in gameplay when raiding or doing PvP. My problem is that the rewards are geared the same as when I was lvl 1 - 59. Rare drops off of real tough enemies. If I was playing in non instances, i had to deal with guild politics and other raiding groups to "compete" for the boss. Role playing is a joke. What Boss would stand there while 40 people whittle its hit points away while another group of 40 are standing in the doorway to take their turn? In instances, the raid party would incessantly repeat the same mission until the rare drop happened. Again, not a shred of RPG in the MMORPG.
So what is the answer? Content is always king. Keep a steady stream of areas, places to visit, challenges to overcome. If people truly want to gather as many as possible to do something together, then make the rewards appropriate for such adventures. Not the best gear of all time, but the gear is designed to increase effectiveness for raid content. Raid buffs, specific mob boss immunities, items that become more powerful in certain raid areas, etc. This way raiders can work for the best guild/raid gear and not alienate casual gamers.
The best gear should always come from the high risk situations, but that always doesn't have to mean raids.
The whole concept of a static design to achieve the best items is stupid and antiquated first generation MMOG thinking. The best items should be derived from multiple sources and possibilities including crafting, boss type mobs, quests, large group encounters, small group encounters, soloing, PvP, roleplaying, etc.
Static mobs with predictable drops is a lazy design and reinforces raiding which is the extension of that. Random outdoor spawns with a great variation of location and timing should be the norm for better items. That kind of realism would reinforce realistic travel and exploration and a continued connection with the environment. Linear design games reduce too much geographic material to be relegated as unimportant and inconvenient.
Instancing is inconsistent with a persistent MMOG world. Contested spawns would be unlikely in a world which accurately applied random encounters over static ones, but having finite resources that are contested is not always a bad thing. MMOGs are about playing alongside other human players and dealing with the good and bad of that relationship.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
Originally posted by Jorev The whole concept of a static design to achieve the best items is stupid and antiquated first generation MMOG thinking. The best items should be derived from multiple sources and possibilities including crafting, boss type mobs, quests, large group encounters, small group encounters, soloing, PvP, roleplaying, etc. Static mobs with predictable drops is a lazy design and reinforces raiding which is the extension of that. Random outdoor spawns with a great variation of location and timing should be the norm for better items. That kind of realism would reinforce realistic travel and exploration and a continued connection with the environment. Linear design games reduce too much geographic material to be relegated as unimportant and inconvenient. Instancing is inconsistent with a persistent MMOG world. Contested spawns would be unlikely in a world which accurately applied random encounters over static ones, but having finite resources that are contested is not always a bad thing. MMOGs are about playing alongside other human players and dealing with the good and bad of that relationship.
I agree to most of what you said except the idea of random outdoor spawns. That reminds me of ffxi and although the spawns werent random in the sense of they spawned all over the world they still spawned on a semi random timer (i.e. leaping lizzard, emporer's hairpin guy ect) and i personaly hated that.
I like the idea of crafting items as well as getting them from bosses, but i cannot lie and say i was not a fan of the eq loot system. Although i wish crafting played a larger roll i enjoyed how armor dropped off trash mobs while the main bosses would drop more special armor/misc pieces. It made it so the focus of raiding wasnt kill a boss get 2 armor pieces like WoW but instead kill a boss for rare pieces while the entire raid gets armor throughout it by killing the trash mobs ( like how the armor was done in velious with Temple of veeshan trash dropping quest pieces).
The system where trash mobs that respawn somewhat frequently allowed smaller groups to camp the armor and progress on their own. I personaly had experience with a group of friends getting together and camping .. i think tov west.. i cant remember the spawns anymore. With 2 groups we were able to kill armor drops and actualy get people full sets of armor.
oh and i hate 40 man raid instances. Instances should be left at 1 group maybe 2.
Comments
That said, I think that a game with a good mix of common areas as well as instanced areas is the best way to go. It would make both sides happy. Have some quests that are instanced, have some that aren't, have some raids that are instanced, have some that aren't and everyone will be happy. You can party with nonguildmates in the common areas and if they're any good then you can invite them into your guild/clan/whatever and then go do the instanced stuff with them and forget about the noobs.
Personally I hate Instancing for anything other than raiding. Raid mobs in Instances are nice, due to you wont have the top 3 or 4 guild in the game controling the game and bloking others from gettting to where they are.
But then again the whole raid thing is getting worn out imo. every game is starting to feel exactly the same, grind to max lvl, then sit around waiting for raids. After so many raids normal groups just don't interest you due to everything you have is better than anything the group people will ever see.
They really need to make more non fighting material out there or more involed events to do more than go kill a monster for a few drops for the few uber players on that game.
As for normal zones being instanced it really kills the feeling of Mass Multiplayer, and feels more like playing diablo with 5 friends. Even in the eq 1 of killing in to a "Camp" and trying to hold that "camp" was not such a bad thing. For 1 it really helped control the economy some. Just think if all you need to do to get item x is get a group and run Random instance zone to get that item which even if it is the rare drop from that mission its not as rare as if there is only ever one version of the zone with one shot at getting that said item. which make that item hold value.
I also agree with what is stated earlier that there really needs to be a decent game to come out with skill needed, and mass customization to the characters. I hate games where you look around and all the players have the same armor and weapons and such. everyone looks basically the same. Everyone has the same spells and abilities and plays basically the same. Their are some very basic ways to do this but then again they would not be WOW copies.
That and instancing does hurt social dynamics of a game but not as much as poor game design. If you want a strong community make it so people will need to rely on many other people to reach thier goals and get rid of Loot= success genre of game.
Was just going over a searched topic of Raids when I came upon this thread..
Why did developers create the raid concept?
1. To challange players who maxed the level cap something to do and work for
2. To give content to a guild and thereby reinforce community
Whether it is instanced or not, can we say that the major games succeeded in doing these things?
Now another question - Did they do it "right"?
1. Judging from what i read, especially from the Spokesperson of Anti-Raiding, Anofalye
, the raid concept was a disaster. Why?
IHO, it is the loot Stupid!
Raid gear created by developers was designed to the be the best because it was supposed to be the ultimate challange. No 6 man team could dare enter the heart of the enemies lair and wipe out all adversaries including the Boss of the whole area, so ergo, whomever does it, gets the best gear.
This is where developers have stung the non raiding community. Up until this point of a players gaming life, they were completing missions, beating back serious threats, and earning a good living doing so. However, the game "ended" and you had two choices, challange your character in PvP or raid.
to me, these are different games than what I have been playing for the past 49 (or 59) levels. Lets face it, there are sincere differences in gameplay when raiding or doing PvP. My problem is that the rewards are geared the same as when I was lvl 1 - 59. Rare drops off of real tough enemies. If I was playing in non instances, i had to deal with guild politics and other raiding groups to "compete" for the boss. Role playing is a joke. What Boss would stand there while 40 people whittle its hit points away while another group of 40 are standing in the doorway to take their turn? In instances, the raid party would incessantly repeat the same mission until the rare drop happened. Again, not a shred of RPG in the MMORPG.
So what is the answer? Content is always king. Keep a steady stream of areas, places to visit, challenges to overcome. If people truly want to gather as many as possible to do something together, then make the rewards appropriate for such adventures. Not the best gear of all time, but the gear is designed to increase effectiveness for raid content. Raid buffs, specific mob boss immunities, items that become more powerful in certain raid areas, etc. This way raiders can work for the best guild/raid gear and not alienate casual gamers.
The best gear should always come from the high risk situations, but that always doesn't have to mean raids.
The bosses that drop the best items should always be contested, everything else can be instanced.
In wow for example.. Molten core would be contested untill BWL comes out.. then BWL is contested while MC is an instance.
SOmething along those lines keep the best guilds fighting to be the best while others can catch up by farming the easier things.
The whole concept of a static design to achieve the best items is stupid and antiquated first generation MMOG thinking. The best items should be derived from multiple sources and possibilities including crafting, boss type mobs, quests, large group encounters, small group encounters, soloing, PvP, roleplaying, etc.
Static mobs with predictable drops is a lazy design and reinforces raiding which is the extension of that. Random outdoor spawns with a great variation of location and timing should be the norm for better items. That kind of realism would reinforce realistic travel and exploration and a continued connection with the environment. Linear design games reduce too much geographic material to be relegated as unimportant and inconvenient.
Instancing is inconsistent with a persistent MMOG world. Contested spawns would be unlikely in a world which accurately applied random encounters over static ones, but having finite resources that are contested is not always a bad thing. MMOGs are about playing alongside other human players and dealing with the good and bad of that relationship.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
I agree to most of what you said except the idea of random outdoor spawns. That reminds me of ffxi and although the spawns werent random in the sense of they spawned all over the world they still spawned on a semi random timer (i.e. leaping lizzard, emporer's hairpin guy ect) and i personaly hated that.
I like the idea of crafting items as well as getting them from bosses, but i cannot lie and say i was not a fan of the eq loot system. Although i wish crafting played a larger roll i enjoyed how armor dropped off trash mobs while the main bosses would drop more special armor/misc pieces. It made it so the focus of raiding wasnt kill a boss get 2 armor pieces like WoW but instead kill a boss for rare pieces while the entire raid gets armor throughout it by killing the trash mobs ( like how the armor was done in velious with Temple of veeshan trash dropping quest pieces).
The system where trash mobs that respawn somewhat frequently allowed smaller groups to camp the armor and progress on their own. I personaly had experience with a group of friends getting together and camping .. i think tov west.. i cant remember the spawns anymore. With 2 groups we were able to kill armor drops and actualy get people full sets of armor.
oh and i hate 40 man raid instances. Instances should be left at 1 group maybe 2.