woah big question

genesis885

You know maybe i am high or something, but didn't SOE say they didn't have the technology to do a rollback or Pre-NGE server?  i am pretty sure that they said "its not going to happen"
becaues if they did say this why is every post on the forum basically asking them for one of these servers?

Thank folks!

Athela

I always wonder too what they mean by "technically impossible" to rollback. 

 It makes you think overlaying the NGE on the old game system corrupted the original data somehow, or replaced large pieces of it. 

They never say classic servers (aka starting out with a clean but old copy of the game and everyone has to start from scratch) are technically impossible, just that rollbacks are not possible.  Isn't that what all of you database junkies recall from what they say?  I could always be wrong.   But my memory over time says they say rollback can't be done, but they just say they won't do classic servers. 

Then again, they say something new, different and exciting pretty much daily.

Torak

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Originally posted by Athela

I always wonder too what they mean by "technically impossible" to rollback. 

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Someone spilled coffee on the backups.

iskareot

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Originally posted by Torak

Originally posted by Athela

I always wonder too what they mean by "technically impossible" to rollback. 

Someone spilled coffee on the backups.

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Lol I would not be suprised in the least bit.

(Julios master plan) --- Spill coffee on ALL of the back-ups... with lotsa Java..lol

Rekrul

Rollback - to roll back - to revert changes.

To rollback at this point means the following:

You would log in at the same state as at the date to which they roll back. Anything done at any point later than that would be gone. This includes characters, loot, cities, deleted characters would be restored, CU and NGE characters wouldn't exist.

In addition every relation in game would be set to accounts that might have been cancelled in between, leaving cities with inactive mayors, auctions on cancelled accounts and players, who have cancelled at some later point, but prepared to for it by putting maintainance into buildings.

Rollback means loss of everything permanently, all quests, badges, items, money, achievements after the point of rollback. When one of galaxies crashed during CU conversion, people cried over a week of lost work. You're asking for 13-14 months of lost time.

That includes all the new players (yes, there's quite a few of them), who would have never existed at that time. Rollback also means no kashyyyk, no mustafar, no new items (banes, obi's buffs), it also means nothing at all that was added in any form after CU.

Rollback is technical impossibility (it can be done) since it would cause too many problems at gameplay level. Losing 13-14 months of gameplay is simply too much. That's double or triple average subscription lifetime.

And what about people who did achieve stuff after CU, but before NGE. How many players who grinded up Jedi after CU to finished template would put up with being put at 44xx FS. Screw them, you say? Screw you, they say. The number of vets who did everything and had everything before CU is small. Really small. Way too small to have entire system rolled back just for them.

And almost everyone who asks for clean start says the following: I don't care, just give me my Jedi and pearls and barc and money and I'll be happy. Guess what? Fresh start means just that. 2000cr, CDEF and a noob melon. No economy, nothing on bazaar, no vendors, no buffs, no cities, no resources, no resource deeds, no vet rewards, no nothing. A big honking empty galaxy. And 6+ months till you get Jedi to playable level. And 2+ months till first cities are built, markets settle, supply becomes sufficient.

Bissrok

Because they're liars.

Athela

Rekrul, that is an incredibly thorough analysis of why they can't and won't rollback.  If only the staff at SOE would lay things out so clearly for people, maybe another line of dialog between players and SOE would be possible.

Regarding classic servers, I think *most* people do understand it is working with the old system from the ground up.  An awful lot of people are craving those maroj melons. 

Since the Combine EQ has generated so much interest and enthusiasm there is plenty of PR precedent for doing an SWG Classic server.  Unless they are just biding their time with the game for whatever reason, there could hardly be a better time than now, at the 3rd anniversary, to give people the OGE (old game experience).

royalpenalty

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Originally posted by Rekrul
Rollback - to roll back - to revert changes.

To rollback at this point means the following:

You would log in at the same state as at the date to which they roll back. Anything done at any point later than that would be gone. This includes characters, loot, cities, deleted characters would be restored, CU and NGE characters wouldn't exist.

In addition every relation in game would be set to accounts that might have been cancelled in between, leaving cities with inactive mayors, auctions on cancelled accounts and players, who have cancelled at some later point, but prepared to for it by putting maintainance into buildings.

Rollback means loss of everything permanently, all quests, badges, items, money, achievements after the point of rollback. When one of galaxies crashed during CU conversion, people cried over a week of lost work. You're asking for 13-14 months of lost time.

That includes all the new players (yes, there's quite a few of them), who would have never existed at that time. Rollback also means no kashyyyk, no mustafar, no new items (banes, obi's buffs), it also means nothing at all that was added in any form after CU.

Rollback is technical impossibility (it can be done) since it would cause too many problems at gameplay level. Losing 13-14 months of gameplay is simply too much. That's double or triple average subscription lifetime.

And what about people who did achieve stuff after CU, but before NGE. How many players who grinded up Jedi after CU to finished template would put up with being put at 44xx FS. Screw them, you say? Screw you, they say. The number of vets who did everything and had everything before CU is small. Really small. Way too small to have entire system rolled back just for them.

And almost everyone who asks for clean start says the following: I don't care, just give me my Jedi and pearls and barc and money and I'll be happy. Guess what? Fresh start means just that. 2000cr, CDEF and a noob melon. No economy, nothing on bazaar, no vendors, no buffs, no cities, no resources, no resource deeds, no vet rewards, no nothing. A big honking empty galaxy. And 6+ months till you get Jedi to playable level. And 2+ months till first cities are built, markets settle, supply becomes sufficient.

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i'll take it!!!

Wildcat84

They never have said they CANT do classic servers, Smed said that they won't because they'd have to have a staff to maintain them and fix bugs, etc, that they wouldn't do that and maintain the live game.

But, back when he said that the game had about 30K more subs than it has now.

MrArchy

Rekrul made some terrific points, I would add the following (and I think this is what $OE means when they say "technically impossible")

SWG:NGE and SWG:preCU are two different games - for example, one has 32 profession and the other has 9.  To effect a rollback would require several developers working on many aspects of the game.  In essence, doing this would require a second support staff.  Basically, I think $OE doesn't believe it is financially viable to have two versions of SWG.  Even if they did not create new content for a pre-CU version, it would necessitate an expanded support staff, whcih means an expanded investment.  A great many refugees have said they'll never go back while $OE runs the game, hence they must be seriously questioning just how substantial a sub increase they would really get if they did invoke a rollback. Yes, most of us think they'd increase their subs, but I don't know that $OE believes this ATM (they are stupid, after all).

There are also rumors that LEC won't permit licensing of another version of SWG.  I have absolutely no proof of this, just heard the rumor.

Wakizashi

Originally posted by Rekrul 


2000cr, CDEF and a noob melon. 

Back in my day, it was 250 credits, and I didn't hear anyone complainin'

Scaris

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Originally posted by Athela
I always wonder too what they mean by "technically impossible" to rollback. 
 It makes you think overlaying the NGE on the old game system corrupted the original data somehow, or replaced large pieces of it. 
They never say classic servers (aka starting out with a clean but old copy of the game and everyone has to start from scratch) are technically impossible, just that rollbacks are not possible.  Isn't that what all of you database junkies recall from what they say?  I could always be wrong.   But my memory over time says they say rollback can't be done, but they just say they won't do classic servers. 
Then again, they say something new, different and exciting pretty much daily.

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When programmers tell non-programmers or general public that "it's not technically possible" it translates to "we don't want to, we like our idea better".

Scaris

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Originally posted by Rekrul
Rollback - to roll back - to revert changes.To rollback at this point means the following:You would log in at the same state as at the date to which they roll back. Anything done at any point later than that would be gone. This includes characters, loot, cities, deleted characters would be restored, CU and NGE characters wouldn't exist.In addition every relation in game would be set to accounts that might have been cancelled in between, leaving cities with inactive mayors, auctions on cancelled accounts and players, who have cancelled at some later point, but prepared to for it by putting maintainance into buildings.Rollback means loss of everything permanently, all quests, badges, items, money, achievements after the point of rollback. When one of galaxies crashed during CU conversion, people cried over a week of lost work. You're asking for 13-14 months of lost time.That includes all the new players (yes, there's quite a few of them), who would have never existed at that time. Rollback also means no kashyyyk, no mustafar, no new items (banes, obi's buffs), it also means nothing at all that was added in any form after CU.Rollback is technical impossibility (it can be done) since it would cause too many problems at gameplay level. Losing 13-14 months of gameplay is simply too much. That's double or triple average subscription lifetime.And what about people who did achieve stuff after CU, but before NGE. How many players who grinded up Jedi after CU to finished template would put up with being put at 44xx FS. Screw them, you say? Screw you, they say. The number of vets who did everything and had everything before CU is small. Really small. Way too small to have entire system rolled back just for them.And almost everyone who asks for clean start says the following: I don't care, just give me my Jedi and pearls and barc and money and I'll be happy. Guess what? Fresh start means just that. 2000cr, CDEF and a noob melon. No economy, nothing on bazaar, no vendors, no buffs, no cities, no resources, no resource deeds, no vet rewards, no nothing. A big honking empty galaxy. And 6+ months till you get Jedi to playable level. And 2+ months till first cities are built, markets settle, supply becomes sufficient.

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I am very fond of my noob melon...

Obraik

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Originally posted by Athela


Since the Combine EQ has generated so much interest and enthusiasm there is plenty of PR precedent for doing an SWG Classic server.  Unless they are just biding their time with the game for whatever reason, there could hardly be a better time than now, at the 3rd anniversary, to give people the OGE (old game experience).

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From what I understand, the EQ progression servers aren't exactly a classic version of the game.  It still uses the current games mechanics, skills, etc but you work as a server to unlock the different expansion areas (Restuss on a much bigger scale).  I could be wrong though, I don't really follow EQ/EQ2 stuff.

ebenholt

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Originally posted by royalpenalty

Originally posted by Rekrul
Rollback - to roll back - to revert changes.

To rollback at this point means the following:

You would log in at the same state as at the date to which they roll back. Anything done at any point later than that would be gone. This includes characters, loot, cities, deleted characters would be restored, CU and NGE characters wouldn't exist.

In addition every relation in game would be set to accounts that might have been cancelled in between, leaving cities with inactive mayors, auctions on cancelled accounts and players, who have cancelled at some later point, but prepared to for it by putting maintainance into buildings.

Rollback means loss of everything permanently, all quests, badges, items, money, achievements after the point of rollback. When one of galaxies crashed during CU conversion, people cried over a week of lost work. You're asking for 13-14 months of lost time.

That includes all the new players (yes, there's quite a few of them), who would have never existed at that time. Rollback also means no kashyyyk, no mustafar, no new items (banes, obi's buffs), it also means nothing at all that was added in any form after CU.

Rollback is technical impossibility (it can be done) since it would cause too many problems at gameplay level. Losing 13-14 months of gameplay is simply too much. That's double or triple average subscription lifetime.

And what about people who did achieve stuff after CU, but before NGE. How many players who grinded up Jedi after CU to finished template would put up with being put at 44xx FS. Screw them, you say? Screw you, they say. The number of vets who did everything and had everything before CU is small. Really small. Way too small to have entire system rolled back just for them.

And almost everyone who asks for clean start says the following: I don't care, just give me my Jedi and pearls and barc and money and I'll be happy. Guess what? Fresh start means just that. 2000cr, CDEF and a noob melon. No economy, nothing on bazaar, no vendors, no buffs, no cities, no resources, no resource deeds, no vet rewards, no nothing. A big honking empty galaxy. And 6+ months till you get Jedi to playable level. And 2+ months till first cities are built, markets settle, supply becomes sufficient.

i'll take it!!!

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And I bet a shitload of other players that canceled due to CUNGE, including me, would be overly exited to join royalplenty starting from scratch

Rekrul your pointers are good as always and I agree on what you say but if empty classic servers were to open they would be flooded...

Shayde

The issue is the terminology.

Rollback means restoring current characters and servers to pre-CU code. Quite frankly I don't think those 10000 monkeys writing their code could ever handle that. EVER. Sure, they could restore previous backups (if they exist) but that would require them to duplicate all the servers, which they won't do.

Now giving us classic servers that we all start over fresh in could be done in an afternoon. But they WON'T be because it would require them to check their egos at the door before it happens. They WON'T admit the nge was a mistake.

So again, stupidity wins the day.

LilT

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Originally posted by Rekrul


And almost everyone who asks for clean start says the following: I don't care, just give me my Jedi and pearls and barc and money and I'll be happy. Guess what? Fresh start means just that. 2000cr, CDEF and a noob melon. No economy, nothing on bazaar, no vendors, no buffs, no cities, no resources, no resource deeds, no vet rewards, no nothing. A big honking empty galaxy. And 6+ months till you get Jedi to playable level. And 2+ months till first cities are built, markets settle, supply becomes sufficient.

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That would be a dream come true. How awesome would it be to log into Bestine and watch the tat sunset in your newb clothes for the first time.... again.

JediGeek

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Originally posted by Shayde
The issue is the terminology.

Rollback means restoring current characters and servers to pre-CU code. Quite frankly I don't think those 10000 monkeys writing their code could ever handle that. EVER. Sure, they could restore previous backups (if they exist) but that would require them to duplicate all the servers, which they won't do.

Now giving us classic servers that we all start over fresh in could be done in an afternoon. But they WON'T be because it would require them to check their egos at the door before it happens. They WON'T admit the nge was a mistake.

So again, stupidity wins the day.

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This is exactly what I think the problem is.  Whenever the brain dead mods at SOE see the word "rollback" they just lock the thread and post the same "There will be no rollback" BS.  I wouldn't think that rolling back existing servers would be very feasable for the incompetent code monkeys they have now.  Opening classic servers would be the best solution.  I'd be happy to start out with 250 credits, a noob melon and a CDEF pistol as long as I had 250 skill points and 32 professions to make my own character.
The excuse about needing more devs is lame.  There's an addage in business, you have to spend money to make money.  It's pretty obvious that opening classic servers would start bringing in tons of money.  They could easily double their subs.  If they start fixing bugs and adding content, then that number would only keep increasing.

Also, it was one of the mods that said it's technically impossible to rollback.  It's a semantics game.  I'm not surprised that rolling existing servers back wouldn't work.  They've piled 3 different systems on top of each other and NGE is so broken that it makes sense that it wouldn't work.  Classic servers are the way to go.

bugzonlsd

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Originally posted by Rekrul
Rollback - to roll back - to revert changes.

To rollback at this point means the following:

You would log in at the same state as at the date to which they roll back. Anything done at any point later than that would be gone. This includes characters, loot, cities, deleted characters would be restored, CU and NGE characters wouldn't exist.

In addition every relation in game would be set to accounts that might have been cancelled in between, leaving cities with inactive mayors, auctions on cancelled accounts and players, who have cancelled at some later point, but prepared to for it by putting maintainance into buildings.

Rollback means loss of everything permanently, all quests, badges, items, money, achievements after the point of rollback. When one of galaxies crashed during CU conversion, people cried over a week of lost work. You're asking for 13-14 months of lost time.

That includes all the new players (yes, there's quite a few of them), who would have never existed at that time. Rollback also means no kashyyyk, no mustafar, no new items (banes, obi's buffs), it also means nothing at all that was added in any form after CU.

Rollback is technical impossibility (it can be done) since it would cause too many problems at gameplay level. Losing 13-14 months of gameplay is simply too much. That's double or triple average subscription lifetime.

And what about people who did achieve stuff after CU, but before NGE. How many players who grinded up Jedi after CU to finished template would put up with being put at 44xx FS. Screw them, you say? Screw you, they say. The number of vets who did everything and had everything before CU is small. Really small. Way too small to have entire system rolled back just for them.

And almost everyone who asks for clean start says the following: I don't care, just give me my Jedi and pearls and barc and money and I'll be happy. Guess what? Fresh start means just that. 2000cr, CDEF and a noob melon. No economy, nothing on bazaar, no vendors, no buffs, no cities, no resources, no resource deeds, no vet rewards, no nothing. A big honking empty galaxy. And 6+ months till you get Jedi to playable level. And 2+ months till first cities are built, markets settle, supply becomes sufficient.

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Well howbout a rollback to the day right before they put in the NGE? That eliminates half the problem right there no? The economy is there, people actually played and the game didnt suck.

bugzonlsd

Double post

duncan_922

TECHNICAL INSTRUCTIONS FOR A SUCESSFUL ROLLBACK:

1)  Format the server.

2)  Restore previous backup. 

I think it's pretty safe to say that it's quite technically possible.  Even someone with an A+ Certification could do it. 

Bob_Blawblaw

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Originally posted by MrArchy

 There are also rumors that LEC won't permit licensing of another version of SWG.  I have absolutely no proof of this, just heard the rumor.

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I'm very inclined to believe this. If I was a betting man, I gander that the devs wish they could revert the hell out of this thing so they could just get on with their lives. But, if it was true they are contractually bound to the NGE, all they can do is slip 'new' features in over time and pray we recognise them for what they are. I would also take a gander that this war is already over, and that SOE has given up. This whole Restuss garbage is proof enough of that.

InspGadgt

Yet another example of SOE saying something then changing their story later...don't know how many of you remember but in his G5 interview Julio did say that a rollback/classic servers was possible...but SOE wouldn't do it.

shermi

I would be happy with a complete wipe and start over if it means getting the old game back.

FORMAT C:   (Y)   (N)

Clackamas

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Originally posted by Rekrul
Rollback - to roll back - to revert changes.

To rollback at this point means the following:

You would log in at the same state as at the date to which they roll back. Anything done at any point later than that would be gone. This includes characters, loot, cities, deleted characters would be restored, CU and NGE characters wouldn't exist.

The above is not an Engineering problem -- so therefore, it isn't a "technical problem".  It is a business/customer service problem.

In addition every relation in game would be set to accounts that might have been cancelled in between, leaving cities with inactive mayors, auctions on cancelled accounts and players, who have cancelled at some later point, but prepared to for it by putting maintainance into buildings.

The only really game design problem I see here, is the Mayor issue.  Certainly that can be addressed.  SOE is good a nerfing things.

Rollback means loss of everything permanently, all quests, badges, items, money, achievements after the point of rollback. When one of galaxies crashed during CU conversion, people cried over a week of lost work. You're asking for 13-14 months of lost time.

So, again, the above losses not an Engineering problem.  A rollback means reverting to a state that removes all of the NGE.  The above issues are, again, a business/customer service issue.  They have nothing to do with the a "rollback" being technically impossible.

That includes all the new players (yes, there's quite a few of them), who would have never existed at that time. Rollback also means no kashyyyk, no mustafar, no new items (banes, obi's buffs), it also means nothing at all that was added in any form after CU.

New Players are fewer than Old Players who cancelled.  That is a virtual fact based on several sources.  So again, I don't see the engineering problem,
only a business one.  SOE/LEC messed up in the NGE.  They have a business problem with the NGE or preNGE/preCU.  However, I suspect the preNGE/preCU is the better long term business solution.

Rollback is technical impossibility (it can be done) since it would cause too many problems at gameplay level. Losing 13-14 months of gameplay is simply too much. That's double or triple average subscription lifetime.

What game problems would restoring the game to November 14th, 2005?  Other than the Mayors not being around (which is solved by voting system for mayors), I don't see the technical impossibility you are talking about.  A rollback means removing all that is NGE --- what is impossible, at an Engineeering level, with that?

And what about people who did achieve stuff after CU, but before NGE. How many players who grinded up Jedi after CU to finished template would put up with being put at 44xx FS. Screw them, you say? Screw you, they say. The number of vets who did everything and had everything before CU is small. Really small. Way too small to have entire system rolled back just for them.

Again, your not talking Engineering problems here.  You are talking about customer service / business issues.  I know the two can be easily confused, but from an Engineering standpoint, rolling back is easy.

And almost everyone who asks for clean start says the following: I don't care, just give me my Jedi and pearls and barc and money and I'll be happy. Guess what? Fresh start means just that. 2000cr, CDEF and a noob melon. No economy, nothing on bazaar, no vendors, no buffs, no cities, no resources, no resource deeds, no vet rewards, no nothing. A big honking empty galaxy. And 6+ months till you get Jedi to playable level. And 2+ months till first cities are built, markets settle, supply becomes sufficient.

I haven't seen anyone asking for a rollback that is under any illusion that a rollback to date X means everything after date X is lost.  

A clean start, on the other hand, also gives SOE the opprotunity to work on the things they should have under the old system.  I don't think anyone is
under any illusion that "classic servers" would likely be a fresh start.

The bottom line is, the Customer is right.  And the customer, in the case of SOE/LEC and SWG have voted with the wallet: Cancelation.  I see nothing compelling in your argument to say SOE cannot provide preNGE servers.

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Apache_

I still think when they say that 'Technically' they cant, it means that they are not allowed.

Im my own personal conspiracy theory (wich I thought up all on my own), I think the game design was owned by someone else. LEC maybe.  And they took it back.  Wich means that SOE had to develop thier own.  Wich to me is why the NGE was so very basic, incomplete, and incompatable when it first went live.

So 'Technologicly' they can.  But 'Technically' they cant.

I have absolutely no evidence to back up my personal conspiracy theory.  But its the only thing that makes sense to my little brain.