PvR (Not a Typo)

spudvol

When DAOC began there was no tracking of individual toon information, such as realm points, kills, IRS scores, etc. For a short time it truly was a RvR game. The only in-game distinction was thru your realm's accomplishments...'we have this many relics', 'we hold this many keeps'... All that changed over time with the ability to track how your toon did as an individual. Now people say 'I have this many RP', I have this many Solo Kills'.

So, my question is, how do you de-emphasize the player as an individual and emphasize the realm as a whole?

RJCox

Personally I don't feel you need to de-emphasize one to emphasize the other. People are always going to want/need personal goals and accomplishments to strive for, and to brag about to others. If there wasn't the Camelot Herald tracking it all automatically you can bet there would be some website out there where people posted and compared their accomplishments against everyone else's. So it doesn't make a lot of sense to de-emphasize what people so obviously want/need, the key is to make sure the "realm as a whole" is as important/satisfying/etc as the individual. I think the Zone Control and Capital City seiging aspects of WAR will go a long way towards that goal...

Shayde

Yep.. there'll always be a ruler somewhere for people to measure their e-peen. If the game mechanics don't provide one, they'll all get together and estimate their size compared to others.

spudvol

Richard

Thanks for your response.

We have a form of Zone Control in DAOC presently, and while we don't have Capitol City seige, we have Keep and Relic Keep seige, and these aspects of RvR are largely ignored because that isn't the most effective way to get Realm Points. The Type-A personalities who at one time led Relic Raids now play 8-man because that is the most efficient way to increase their 'personal score' or epeen as Shayde calls it. The players have been given a choice to RvR or PvP and have overwhelmingly chosen to PvP or Group PvP. If you wanted to be overly dramatic you could say that RvR ended when the first toon got their first Realm Point.

I understand that WAR is a long way off, and balancing PvP and RvR are way down the to-do list, but is Mythic even aware that RvR in DAOC wasn't killed by bugs or game imbalances or whatever, but it was killed when the emphasis shifted from the 'big scoreboard' of the number of Relics and Keeps held by a Realm, to the Personal Scorekeeping (I'm reluctant to call it Player Individual Scoring System for some reason) made available later in the game.

I don't doubt that when WAR is released that Zone Control and Capitol City seige will be a large part of the early game, but what incentive will there be to keep the playerbase from picking a flat spot on the map (Emain) and simply playing to increase their Personal Score?

Second question- Mythic closed some of the Gear- and Abitlity-Gap with the release of the Classic server, has Mythic ever considered creating a No-Stat server to test whether players would RvR more in that environment?

Thanks for your time.

EDIT- By No-Stat server I mean a server where personal scores aren't logged, not a server where the players have 'no stats'.

n2sooners

I don't think RPs are the problem. I think the fact that you make more RPs doing pure PvP than you do by doing anything directly for the realm was the big failure of DAoC. They should have either had actual RvRing be the best way to get RPs, or had two different point systems. RPs for helping the realm and buying realm abilities, and some type of PvP point system for special titles and bragging rights. Also, they should have had a better sharing method so that people would be more interested in doing what is best for the realm at large battles instead of doing what is best for them (get RPs).

rungard

the real key is to provide different reward systems for different activities.

daoc only rewarded realm points so players do activities that net most realm points. Simple path of least resistance.

However if you consider that pvp can build strength to 80, and operating a battering ram can increase it another 80, then both those activities are viable because you cant get to 160 by either activity alone.

extrapolate this solution to the general gameplay and strength gain becomes more than a function, its an additive effect of many activities.

you can get strength from swing an axe but there is also strength to be learned from lugging a log. You cant expect to be as stong as someone who has done it all by performing one activity only.

spudvol

I think we need to make a distinction between PvP and RvR.

In (DAOC)PvP you kill your enemy for Realm Points. More Realm Points means more abilities, better titles, more personal glory. It pretty much comes down to 'I killed for your Points'.

People think that RvR is just large scale PvP, but it isn't. While PvP is a battle for a better score, RvR is a battle for territory. Think of it as 'I killed you to occupy the space(territory) where your corpse now lies'.

In WAR this would become- 'I killed this Dwarf to occupy the space where his corpse now lies', 'to WE kill all of these Dwarves to occupy the space they controlled and if we kill even more dwarves we can control this Zone, and killing even more Dwarves allows us to control the Dwarven Capitol City for the sole purpose of annoying these Dwarves until their beards turn gray and we'll do the Happy Orc Dance for all of eternity'.

PvP is about your personal scorecard, RvR is about controlling territory. You can't emphasize both (DAOC tried and failed). Check the VN message board and count the number of 'Grats Player x for getting Realm Rank Y threads' then compare it to the number 'Grats Realm X for taking Keep Y threads'. Tons of the former, none of the latter.

Hydraman

What if RVR affected individual PVP preformance?  If holding relics provided a worthwhile bonus to realm point gain, then it becomes worth the effort for people that care about individual accomplishment to participate in RVR.

If my enemy is gaining RP's 20% faster than I am because he has all of my relics, I will feel motivated to attack him to restore my relics and perhaps steal his.

flea1

honestly i think they need to adress both if they want this to become a block buster. Rvr is fine but most people loathe 50 rvr. Its mainly a perfect 8 man running against another perfect 8 man. I despise standing for hours saying lfg and because i enjoy a class that doesnt fit perfect group i never get one. Thats why bgs are popular small map and zergs generally no 8 man crap.

To get others involved that hate rvr elite garbage. Inplementing an option that allows guilds to war each other. Now you got pvp and rvr. Happy of both worlds and its both optional. You dont want to go open pvp guild then you decline from war. But those that like pvp will love it and want to play.

Cypryss

I don't know about you guys but, i thought it was all about being the dude in the best looking gear carrying the mean looking weapon. Titles are all fine and to a degree i enjoy showing them but, for me is all about standing there in my cool looking gear making newbies drool.

I AM TEH PWNZOR ! 

That's what it's all about right ?  As long as that flipping gear looks cool and has the best stats is there a need to say "HEY LOOK AT ME !" ?