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Koster's Commandments

xxthecorexxxxthecorexx Member Posts: 1,078
in Star Wars Galaxies
http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/07/03/the-commandments-of-online-worlds/
Gaming)

The Commandments of Online Worlds


  1. Thou
    shalt not mistake online worlds for games, for they encompass far more;
    nor shalt thou forget that play is noble, and game is no epithet.
  2. Thou shalt not disrespect thy players, nor treat them as mere
    database entries or subscriptions, but rather as people, for thy power
    is granted you by them.
  3. Thou shalt not remove fun or
    implement unfun for the sake of longer subscriber longevity, nor shalt
    thou consider thy sort of fun to be the only sort of fun to be had, for
    many and mysterious are the ways of enjoyment.
  4. Thou shalt not blindly do what has been done before, but rather shalt know why all is as it is, and how it could be different.
  5. Thou shalt create and follow rules that bind thyself as well as the players, for thou art of the community, not above it.
  6. Thou shalt not make thy world a place for players to do real harm unto one another, or for thee to do harm unto players.
  7. Thou
    shalt not covet thy neighbor’s userbase, but instead be true to thine
    own userbase, for thou hast made them a garden, and thy job is
    cultivation.
  8. Thou shalt make every activity within thy world
    one that stands alone enjoyably; if it be a game, then thou shouldst
    make it a fun game on its own merits; if it be other, then thou
    shouldst make it true to itself. Thy world doth not make boring things
    into enjoyable things merely because it is thy world.
  9. There shalt be no number nine.
  10. Honor thy ancestors, for they solved most of thy design problems.
i remember a game built by these rules, it was brilliant.


____________________________
TheCore

«1

Comments

  • ElnatorElnator Member Posts: 6,077

    Originally posted by xxthecorexx
    http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/07/03/the-commandments-of-online-worlds/





    Gaming)




    The Commandments of Online Worlds











    Thou
    shalt not mistake online worlds for games, for they encompass far more;
    nor shalt thou forget that play is noble, and game is no epithet.

    Thou shalt not disrespect thy players, nor treat them as mere
    database entries or subscriptions, but rather as people, for thy power
    is granted you by them.
    Thou shalt not remove fun or
    implement unfun for the sake of longer subscriber longevity, nor shalt
    thou consider thy sort of fun to be the only sort of fun to be had, for
    many and mysterious are the ways of enjoyment.
    Thou shalt not blindly do what has been done before, but rather shalt know why all is as it is, and how it could be different.
    Thou shalt create and follow rules that bind thyself as well as the players, for thou art of the community, not above it.
    Thou shalt not make thy world a place for players to do real harm unto one another, or for thee to do harm unto players.
    Thou
    shalt not covet thy neighbor’s userbase, but instead be true to thine
    own userbase, for thou hast made them a garden, and thy job is
    cultivation.
    Thou shalt make every activity within thy world
    one that stands alone enjoyably; if it be a game, then thou shouldst
    make it a fun game on its own merits; if it be other, then thou
    shouldst make it true to itself. Thy world doth not make boring things
    into enjoyable things merely because it is thy world.
    There shalt be no number nine.
    Honor thy ancestors, for they solved most of thy design problems.

    i remember a game built by these rules, it was brilliant.



    Yes it was :)  Thank god we can still play it on UO Classic Shards :)  *snickers*

    Oh wait... you meant SWG pre-NGE :)

    Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
    Sig image Pending
    Still in: A couple Betas

  • milton1970milton1970 Member Posts: 347

    Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s userbase, but instead be true to thine own userbase, for thou hast made them a garden, and thy job is cultivation.

    I love this one

  • ElnatorElnator Member Posts: 6,077

    As a side note:
    I have always liked and respected Raph.  I loved UO and I loved old SWG.  I'm a sandbox gamer.  I do enjoy having content handed to me within the sandbox but I want a sandbox to play in.  EQ2, WoW, etc... are not Sandboxes... though EQ2 is at least a LITTLE bit open and sort of feels like a sandbox in some areas.  But the only real sandbox left in the commercial scene right now is EVE... and that's a sandbox that's just boring to visit, unfortunately.

    I miss Pre-NGE SWG... and I miss pre-EA UO (yes I know they owned origin when UO was developed but they didn't start meddling till 2001).   I am hoping for a GOOD sandbox to come out but unfortunately, imo, one has not yet.  Ryzom isn't bad but it's not worth it's fee.  Come to think of it I need to see if Irth is still doing a free trial ;)  It's been about 8 months... wonder if they've finished their paid beta phase yet ;)

    IMO:  UO meets DDO would make a phenomenal game.  UO's sandbox style (or even pre-CU SWG's sandbox) with DDO's attention to quest detail and complexity.  THAT would be the game to end all games.



    Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
    Sig image Pending
    Still in: A couple Betas

  • ShaydeShayde Member Posts: 4,529
    Too bad he never had thought to tell anyone at $OE this.

    Shayde - SWG (dead)
    Proud member of the Cabal.
    image

    imageimage
    It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled :( - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me.
    I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
    09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0

  • RekrulRekrul Member Posts: 2,961

    Originally posted by Shayde
    Too bad he never had thought to tell anyone at $OE this.


    He did. They had different opinion. They split.
  • milton1970milton1970 Member Posts: 347

    Originally posted by Elnator
    As a side note:
    I have always liked and respected Raph.  I loved UO and I loved old SWG.  I'm a sandbox gamer.  I do enjoy having content handed to me within the sandbox but I want a sandbox to play in.  EQ2, WoW, etc... are not Sandboxes... though EQ2 is at least a LITTLE bit open and sort of feels like a sandbox in some areas.  But the only real sandbox left in the commercial scene right now is EVE... and that's a sandbox that's just boring to visit, unfortunately.

    I miss Pre-NGE SWG... and I miss pre-EA UO (yes I know they owned origin when UO was developed but they didn't start meddling till 2001).   I am hoping for a GOOD sandbox to come out but unfortunately, imo, one has not yet.  Ryzom isn't bad but it's not worth it's fee.  Come to think of it I need to see if Irth is still doing a free trial ;)  It's been about 8 months... wonder if they've finished their paid beta phase yet ;)

    IMO:  UO meets DDO would make a phenomenal game.  UO's sandbox style (or even pre-CU SWG's sandbox) with DDO's attention to quest detail and complexity.  THAT would be the game to end all games.

    I hate the idea that some games are based on content that must be done.

    Even back in pre-cu on some days I'd be a little bit bored, but devs would assume that admissions like that meant that it ought to be more quest/content based since there was apparently something missing

    -WRONG-

    watching tv/dvd's while drunk/shitfaced/off work/eating buckets of fried chicken for three weeks will bore you eventually trust me, the freedom of pre-cu meant that I was never bored for long but under the confines of NGE I was bored shitless.

  • ElnatorElnator Member Posts: 6,077

    Originally posted by milton1970

    Originally posted by Elnator
    As a side note:
    I have always liked and respected Raph.  I loved UO and I loved old SWG.  I'm a sandbox gamer.  I do enjoy having content handed to me within the sandbox but I want a sandbox to play in.  EQ2, WoW, etc... are not Sandboxes... though EQ2 is at least a LITTLE bit open and sort of feels like a sandbox in some areas.  But the only real sandbox left in the commercial scene right now is EVE... and that's a sandbox that's just boring to visit, unfortunately.

    I miss Pre-NGE SWG... and I miss pre-EA UO (yes I know they owned origin when UO was developed but they didn't start meddling till 2001).   I am hoping for a GOOD sandbox to come out but unfortunately, imo, one has not yet.  Ryzom isn't bad but it's not worth it's fee.  Come to think of it I need to see if Irth is still doing a free trial ;)  It's been about 8 months... wonder if they've finished their paid beta phase yet ;)

    IMO:  UO meets DDO would make a phenomenal game.  UO's sandbox style (or even pre-CU SWG's sandbox) with DDO's attention to quest detail and complexity.  THAT would be the game to end all games.

    I hate the idea that some games are based on content that must be done.

    Even back in pre-cu on some days I'd be a little bit bored, but devs would assume that admissions like that meant that it ought to be more quest/content based since there was apparently something missing

    -WRONG-

    watching tv/dvd's while drunk/shitfaced/off work/eating buckets of fried chicken for three weeks will bore you eventually trust me, the freedom of pre-cu meant that I was never bored for long but under the confines of NGE I was bored shitless.


    LOL I wouldn't have put it QUITE that way   But yes, very true

    Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
    Sig image Pending
    Still in: A couple Betas

  • ElnatorElnator Member Posts: 6,077

    Originally posted by Shayde
    Too bad he never had thought to tell anyone at $OE this.


    He did.  You might want to read his blog ;)  He doesn't come right out and say it but he did admit that the NGE was part of the reason he left SOE.

    I keep hoping Koster and Garriott wind up hooking up to do another title.  It'd be interesting to see what they would come up with.

    Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
    Sig image Pending
    Still in: A couple Betas

  • xxthecorexxxxthecorexx Member Posts: 1,078

    Originally posted by Shayde
    Too bad he never had thought to tell anyone at $OE this.


    they're clearly written outta hindsight, but learning from their mistakes is something that SOE is just not capable of.

    ____________________________
    TheCore

  • RekrulRekrul Member Posts: 2,961

    Originally posted by Elnator

    Originally posted by Shayde
    Too bad he never had thought to tell anyone at $OE this.


    He did.  You might want to read his blog ;)  He doesn't come right out and say it but he did admit that the NGE was part of the reason he left SOE.

    I keep hoping Koster and Garriott wind up hooking up to do another title.  It'd be interesting to see what they would come up with.

    He's making an indie startup right now.

    But back to the SOE and NGE. With NGE, and events around it, many things changed in SOE. This doesn't mean it's unrelated, but SOE is moving towards publishing business, or at least changing their business model to adapt. This means that the ammount of development related personel has little future there.

    As a designer, especially at his level, Raph had little place there. Say what you want, but before WoW, SOE's products were making nice profit (they almost certainly still are), and SWG, while not the most popular MMO, was doing "well", as far as such a radical design can. So this doesn't look like cutting dead weight, despite everything (bugs, issues, unfulfilled promises), SWG drew appropriate crowd for a sandbox MMO. Whether the game under "SWG" name could have done better with different design is a pointless question. They made money off it, and it survived quite well. Simply assuming that a different design would have been a million user hit is rather naive. When SWG started it's development, world was a much different place. There was no WoW, EQ2, PlayNC (in today's market influence), and the strongest affectors were EQ and UO.
  • SagoSago Member Posts: 516

    Looks like these 10 commandments is everything $OE has done to screw up the SWG.

    I appreciate (but I always knew) Raph stating the do's and don'ts.

    Sago Mactow
    Former SWG 2yr 7 month Vet
    6/26/03 - 1/26/06
    Jedi, Master Shipwright, Master Architect
    DFR Councilman
    Tarq Server

  • UbermanUberman Member Posts: 340

    Originally posted by xxthecorexx
    http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/07/03/the-commandments-of-online-worlds/





    Gaming)




    The Commandments of Online Worlds











    Thou
    shalt not mistake online worlds for games, for they encompass far more;
    nor shalt thou forget that play is noble, and game is no epithet.

    Thou shalt not disrespect thy players, nor treat them as mere
    database entries or subscriptions, but rather as people, for thy power
    is granted you by them.
    Thou shalt not remove fun or
    implement unfun for the sake of longer subscriber longevity, nor shalt
    thou consider thy sort of fun to be the only sort of fun to be had, for
    many and mysterious are the ways of enjoyment.
    Thou shalt not blindly do what has been done before, but rather shalt know why all is as it is, and how it could be different.
    Thou shalt create and follow rules that bind thyself as well as the players, for thou art of the community, not above it.
    Thou shalt not make thy world a place for players to do real harm unto one another, or for thee to do harm unto players.
    Thou
    shalt not covet thy neighbor’s userbase, but instead be true to thine
    own userbase, for thou hast made them a garden, and thy job is
    cultivation.
    Thou shalt make every activity within thy world
    one that stands alone enjoyably; if it be a game, then thou shouldst
    make it a fun game on its own merits; if it be other, then thou
    shouldst make it true to itself. Thy world doth not make boring things
    into enjoyable things merely because it is thy world.
    There shalt be no number nine.
    Honor thy ancestors, for they solved most of thy design problems.

    i remember a game built by these rules, it was brilliant.



    Thanks for posting that.  Brightened my day a bit. 

  • ebenholtebenholt Member Posts: 312
    You all this is a hit at SoE, right? Not just the IN YOUR FACE type of slugger punch...

    "There are two kinds of spurs, my friend. Those that come in by the door; those that come in by the window"

  • ShaydeShayde Member Posts: 4,529

    Originally posted by ebenholt
    You all this is a hit at SoE, right? Not just the IN YOUR FACE type of slugger punch...
    Too bad $OE doesn't even understand they got hit.

    Shayde - SWG (dead)
    Proud member of the Cabal.
    image

    imageimage
    It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled :( - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me.
    I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
    09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0

  • jrscottjrscott Member Posts: 1,252

    Originally posted by ebenholt
    You all this is a hit at SoE, right? Not just the IN YOUR FACE type of slugger punch...

    Considering SOE is guilty of breaking all of but #9 , the answer to your question is YES.  Interesting that this was put out as his employement contract at SOE ended and no sooner.

    I consider the document a veiled way of telling us what really goes through SOE's mind, without naming them specifically.  This gives me great hope that we will all be together again in a great new sandbox of his design.

    I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever :)

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Is Koster even working on anything now ? It is sad his recipe for MMO's has been over shadowed by wowabeees . 

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • SpathotanSpathotan Member Posts: 3,928

    Originally posted by Malickiebloo
    Is Koster even working on anything now ? It is sad his recipe for MMO's has been over shadowed by wowabeees . 


    Damnit..wth. Everybody stop attacking my game lol.

    "There's no star system Slave I can't reach, and there's no planet I can't find. There's nowhere in the Galaxy for you to run. Might as well give up now."
    — Boba Fett

  • jrscottjrscott Member Posts: 1,252

    Originally posted by Malickiebloo
    Is Koster even working on anything now ? It is sad his recipe for MMO's has been over shadowed by wowabeees . 
    He implies that he is happy his contract with SOE ended, but that he no longer receives a salary either.  I cannot see him remaining unemployed long.  I just hope he has the cahones to try and get funding to run his own show this time.

    I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever :)

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183

    Originally posted by Spathotan

    Originally posted by Malickiebloo
    Is Koster even working on anything now ? It is sad his recipe for MMO's has been over shadowed by wowabeees . 


    Damnit..wth. Everybody stop attacking my game lol.


    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • dolaniousdolanious Member Posts: 186
    Kosters "Commandments" come off as hypocritical, considering he was a
    top dog at SWG (even if he wasn't working directly on it, he had major
    influence over there) and allowed every one of his so-called
    commandments be broken.


    Hey Ralph, if you're reading this, screw you. I know what you're really
    are and you can't hide behind these commandments you apparently don't
    follow yourself.

  • RekrulRekrul Member Posts: 2,961

    Originally posted by dolanious
    Kosters "Commandments" come off as hypocritical, considering he was a
    top dog at SWG (even if he wasn't working directly on it, he had major
    influence over there) and allowed every one of his so-called
    commandments be broken.


    Hey Ralph, if you're reading this, screw you. I know what you're really
    are and you can't hide behind these commandments you apparently don't
    follow yourself.


    He left SWG before it launched, and only stayed on the team formally until vehicles were put in game. He was also a designer and researcher IIRC, so he had no influence whatsoever over business decisions made. Kinda pointless to blame someone who hasleft the project over 3 years ago, don't you think?.
  • jrscottjrscott Member Posts: 1,252

    Originally posted by dolanious
    Kosters "Commandments" come off as hypocritical, considering he was a top dog at SWG (even if he wasn't working directly on it, he had major influence over there) and allowed every one of his so-called commandments be broken.

    Hey Ralph, if you're reading this, screw you. I know what you're really are and you can't hide behind these commandments you apparently don't follow yourself.

    No, apparently he had NO influence over there as everything he built was slowly dismantled.  I have personally been in the same position as he was, lead creative designer of a software project with a "hands-on" executive staff.  I pity him even more because he had TWO of those...SOE and LEC.

    By and large, business executives have no patience to actually finish software, and they are usually the guilty parties in these situations, trying one knee-jerk solution after another, until they end up burying the project and blaming the initial designer despite the fact the initial design was never truly implemented to begin with.  After doing this, they again dupe more investors into giving them money to screw up all over again.

    Technical people are guilty of ignoring the business side of their craft, unable to make compelling arguments to management that they can actually understand to keep them from killing projects.  If Raph is guilty of anything, this is likely it.  He could not stop Smedley & Crew from destroying the project.

    We are unfortunately stuck with this situation as consumers, until our educational institutions actually start turning out business executives with true technical savvy, or technical executive with true business savvy.  Sadly, there is still a massive chasm between the two disciplines.

    I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever :)

  • KenshuAniKenshuAni Member CommonPosts: 851
    Did Raph have a forum name, and if so, does anyone remember what it was?  I never really paid attention to the RL names of the devs back in beta/early launch, so I am just a bit curious.
  • jrscottjrscott Member Posts: 1,252

    Originally posted by KenshuAni
    Did Raph have a forum name, and if so, does anyone remember what it was?  I never really paid attention to the RL names of the devs back in beta/early launch, so I am just a bit curious.

    Holocron.

    I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever :)

  • RekrulRekrul Member Posts: 2,961

    Originally posted by KenshuAni
    Did Raph have a forum name, and if so, does anyone remember what it was?  I never really paid attention to the RL names of the devs back in beta/early launch, so I am just a bit curious.

    Holocron.
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