Originally posted by Emoian_07 I agree. Having played EVE, it is a constant grind for more money to buy ships wich you have to train skills for ungodly amounts of time for. If you want anything worth a damn you have to spend years training the skills. Which in most cases means buying a superoverpriced skill to train it. To buy the skill to get the ship you have to have more skillz. So you have to have a really big skill in one thing and a boatload of money to buy the skill you need to get a good ship. then you gotta constantly train the skill 2+ times to get the ship. Overall you're just making money to buy skills to watch them train for months just so you can get a ship. That equals no fun.
oh sh*t. i didnt know i wasnt allowed to have fun while playing EVE!!!!! so, what is it that i am doing wrong? cause i am having fun.
You said it in an earlier post in this very thread. To directly quote your post from
7/06/06
12:05:21 PM:
"but can someone give you xp on any other game? cause on EVE veteran players can give all the isk they want, so if you think you have to grind, you can join a corp and get that grind to a incredible low level. can you do that in EQ2? can you join a guild and instantly raise from level 1 to level 35?"
Could you really not remember something you said earlier in this thread?
EVE is an interesting game, with some fairly groundbreaking things in it, as far as MMOs go. Replacing "grinding" (actually playing the game) with "staring at the screen waiting for skills to advance" is NOT one of those groundbreaking ideas. It's just a time sink.
Originally posted by apertotes
Originally posted by vendris I'm going to ignore your attempt to change the subject, and take this as an admission that you were completely wrong in your statement that people can give you "experience" in EVE.
when did i say that? i am really sorry for you. if all you see is a grind, then it is your fault. i am playing EVE and not grinding, and so far i have been very succesful. i know many people ingame that feel the same way i do.
if you are not able to play without grinding, then i feel pity for you
ah, so it is not true that veteran players can give money to new players? that is what i said. i said that the OP stated that on EVE you had to grind for isk, not xp. great, even if we accept that it is needed to grind for isk (which it isnt), but even then, you can get your grinding done by a veteran that can give you 100 million so that you have enough money for your first 6 months of game.
i never claimed that veteran players could give skill points to new players, as you can read on the lines you perfectly quoted.
You directly implied that EVE was the only game where veteran players could give advancement to new players. Now, you claim you only meant money without any implication of advancement? Which point are you actually arguing?
If you are arguing that isk = character advancement (you *directly* compared giving isk to a new player, to instantly raising a new player to 35th level in other MMOs) then you are wrong. *Skills* are character advancement in EVE. ISK does not make your skills train faster. Buying a fancy ship with tech 2 gear does nothing for a new player, because they don't have the skills to use them.
Now, you are claiming you didn't mean to imply this, and that you just meant isk. Well, your *point* was that EVE was the only game that let you do this. *Every* MMO on the market that I can think of will let you give money to anyone that you want. So, if this new position you are claiming you were arguing all along (which you weren't) is the position you choose to argue, then you're still wrong.
Originally posted by apertotes ah, so it is not true that veteran players can give money to new players? that is what i said. i said that the OP stated that on EVE you had to grind for isk, not xp. great, even if we accept that it is needed to grind for isk (which it isnt), but even then, you can get your grinding done by a veteran that can give you 100 million so that you have enough money for your first 6 months of game. i never claimed that veteran players could give skill points to new players, as you can read on the lines you perfectly quoted.
The freedom and open endedness of an MMO should not be defined by what you don't have to do, as many in this thread are arguing. Arguing that there is more content in EVE that you can choose not to do than in WoW is a ridiculous argument, because in the end, that reduces to "you don't have to play the game at all", which is true of any game.
The freedom and open endedness of an MMO is defined by all of the things you *can* do, that are within the realm of the games mechanics itself. We should assume for this argument that players *do* want to advance their characters, otherwise they are not actually playing the game. We should also ignore the things you can do in the games that are not strictly governed by game mechanics. For instance, in WoW and in EVE both, I could if I wanted use the chat functionality of the game to play "20 questions" with people instead of actually playing the game. This has nothing to do with the open endedness of the games themselves.
EVE *is* more open than WoW... but it is because of everything you can do to make progress with your character, not because of everything you can ignore and not do. In EVE, you can advance a character along more paths than WoW, and you can choose non combat paths for advancement. You can be a trader, playing the economic markets, or you can do research and development work, or specialize in corporate management skills, or you can be a combat pilot, etc. That's why EVE is more open than WoW.
Sorry, just felt like this argument was going in the wrong direction and wanted to try to steer it back on course
I hear what you are saying, but consider for a moment the proportion of what we can control, over the proportion that is ultimately outside of our control.
There is one thing that I know, with absolute certainty, is wholly within the player's control in EVE. That is the decision to keep paying the subscription fee. One can also say the same thing about playing roulette.
After that point, factors wholly outside the control of the player start to influence the player's game. That is not to say the player cannot control anything at all, but there comes a point where factors wholly unrelated to a player's actions start to play a role in the player's game.
Take for example skills. Yes, you can pay for the client an a month subscription fee to train all the learning skills, on the premise that a compromised game for a few months will lead to a better game down the road. The problem though is, what if the player who trains all the learning skills, after getting seriously involved in corporations and PvP, discovers that they don't like the game? In a sense, this player paid and played for two months that they did not need to pay and play, in preparation for a future that they did not find very appealing when they got there.
Take for example corporations and friends. You can get in a corporation that from every indication is good and stable. You can be respectful. You can do what they tell you. You can look out for them. You can plug away for your director like a good soldier in exchange for some future reward. You may even get the reward just as predicted. It can just as easily be the case though that the director is getting rich of your hard work and sacrifice, and has no intention of ever giving you what was promised.
It can just as easily be the case that you don't do much work at all, and get rewarded far in excess of what you should. Or that you get stock and dividends and earn ISK just by existing, and not doing anything at all. In all these cases though, the results are very much determined by things that are outside the individual player's control to predict and influence fully, and I do emphasize fully. Yes there are things you can control. There are also things one cannot control. The difference between an idealized notion of what EVE is about as opposed to a realistic one is that the idealist interprets luck as skill, and bad luck as bad skill.
Ultimately, if someone doesn't like you or respect you, nothing you can say or do is going to force people to like you, respect you, help you, and protect you. Yes, there is freedom in EVE. Players are free to call a new player a scamming alt, and whether or not the new player is one in truth really doesn't matter. Because there is freedom in EVE, there is nothing that forces people to care, even when they should.
Many here have said that the EVE community is mature and helpful. I think it also has to be said that the EVE community is also very entrenched, very "hardcore," and doesn't really need to care about new players. They have the freedom to choose who they help and who they hurt. And for every player that is helped, there may be just as many that are hurt.
Who decides whether you are helped or hurt? At best, a player can only control half of the equasion. The other half is, again, a matter of the other's preference.
So what am I trying to say by all this? I guess I am trying to say that it is inevitable that EVE screws some players over, for no other reason than factors outside a player's control. Because much of what we gain and lose is dependent on things that do not afford us the opportunity to influence them, it means that for as much as players play EVE, EVE also plays them, and in some cases, plays them for fools.
I'd go so far as to say there are four types of EVE experience:
1) Those who are good players, and get a fulfilling experience due to their actions.
2) Those who are bad players, and still get a fulfilling experience due to factors unrealted to their actions.
3) Those who are good players, and get an unfulfilling experience due to factors unrelated to their actions.
4) Those who are careless, and get an unfulfilling experience due to their actions.
Category one and four are what the "vets" will say are the only two valid EVE experiences, but its far more complex than that. Two and three happen quite often as well, and it is inevitable that they do when half of what happens in EVE is due to things outside of a player's control.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
no, what i said is that isk is the only grind on EVE, acording to the OP, and this grind can be eliminated completely.
it is you that are messing everything on your mind. i said that EVE is the only game where the biggest grind (in fact, the only one according to the OP) can be completely eliminated with the help of some friends.
on any other game, even though your friends can give you all the money you need, you will still have to grind for xp. on EVE there is no grind whatsoever.
i invite you to re-read my previous posts and you will see i have always been talking about isks. why? because the OP seemed so f*ucked up by having to grind money, and he was comparing this grind to the grind on any other game. "yes, you dont have to grind for xp or items, but you have to grind for money, so in the end it is the same as any other game out there, EQ2, WoW..." well, that is were he (and you) is wrong, even though getting isk was accepted as a grind, it can be completely eliminated by friends and team play, and that is what differences EVE from any other game.
if you could be relieved from xp grinding on WoW or EQ2, then i would accept that EVE was as grindy as the rest.
Originally posted by apertotes i invite you to re-read my previous posts and you will see i have always been talking about isks. why? because the OP seemed so f*ucked up by having to grind money, and he was comparing this grind to the grind on any other game. "yes, you dont have to grind for xp or items, but you have to grind for money, so in the end it is the same as any other game out there, EQ2, WoW..." well, that is were he (and you) is wrong, even though getting isk was accepted as a grind, it can be completely eliminated by friends and team play, and that is what differences EVE from any other game.
If the point you are trying to make is that you don't have to play to gain skills in EVE (because it trains automatically), and you don't have to play to gain ISK (because people give you ISK for reasons wholly outside the ability to earn it), then pray tell, what does it mean to have either?
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Ok, I will accept this as your point, and admit I could have misunderstood what you were trying to express. No big deal.
In this case, I would say that EVE has replaced "grinding" with "waiting". Subscription MMOs need some sort of time sink, or else players will tear through all of the content faster than developers can create the content. In most MMOs, the time sink is "grinding"... repetitive killing of enemies in order to gain experience to unlock new content. Earn enough experience, and you become powerful enough to go to new areas of the MMO.
I would argue that EVE still has the grind... it's just, they've removed the requirement to actually play the grind. In other words, you grind time.
I can make some pretty solid arguments for and against this approach. I think EVE's approach has significant benefits and significant draw backs. For me, I suppose in the end the drawbacks outweighed the benefits, as I'm no longer playing EVE. I don't like the psychology of waiting to be able to do something in an MMO.. I'd rather be directly contributing to my character advancement through my actions. You, on the other hand, feel that EVE's approach frees you from -having- to advance, because you'll advance over time no matter what you do (so long as you have enough ISK to afford your skills).
In this case, I certainly can't say you're wrong and I'm right. I can say in the end, I didn't find EVE's approach fun for me personally, although plenty of people do seem to find it fun, and for those people (including yourself) I'm glad you found an MMO you are enjoying
Originally posted by apertotes no, what i said is that isk is the only grind on EVE, acording to the OP, and this grind can be eliminated completely. it is you that are messing everything on your mind.
Originally posted by Elnator Originally posted by Souldrainer It seems to me that no one else has actually picked up on this. I played Eve for about a month, after whiche time, I realized I was grinding. I wasn't grinding for exp's or items. I was grinding for ISK (money) so I could upgrade things. There are dozens of ways to gain ISK's in Eve, but the bottom line is that missions are the fastest way. Not only that, but no matter which method you choose, each task gets very repetitive as you grind for money. Skill advancement is a joke. Why does it take a month to train some skills? Umm, because the developers said so, that's why. This is an arbitrary system which boils down to nothing more than a poorly masked time sink. Bounty hunting is encouraged, but is not a plausible profession. PVP comes down to who has the most and best ships, which hearkens back to the ISK grind. Skill based game? Not hardly. It's just as much of a grind as WoW or Everquest, if not more.
I don't like EVE, let me get that clear right up front. But you're wrong.
The most effective way to make money in EVE is *not* missions. As many others will gleefully point out. There are numerous ways within EVE to make a fortune MUCH faster than Missions. Missions are, however, the "path of least resistance" to making money. They are also, however, extremely repetitive and will QUICKLY become a grind if that's the only way you go about making money.
Alternative methods of making money include:
Doing trade runs for other players (Get an Indie)
Mining and refining ores (Play Caldari and get the Cruiser suited for mining, and use cans, especially now that they're secured by default. Get an Indie to haul your ore once you're done mining.
Playing the market (Buy low, sell high). Learn where things are cheap and where you can sell them for a profit. This involves a lot of travel. You'll need that time though, to research what to buy where and what to sell where. If you enjoyed Elite this is Elite at it's finest.
Pirating.... It will take you 1-2 months to get skills to where you can do this effectively. I recommend joining a pirate corp if you plan to try, they will help you learn the ropes.
Crafting, making items and selling them on the market.... this takes a bit of time but eventually crafters can make a bloody fortune...
Those are just a few off the top of my head, and I don't even like EVE.
The skill system is anything but arbitrary. How long it takes to learn one type of skill or another is dependant upon your learning ability in that area, which is based upon the base statistics you picked up. It is also based upon the difficulty of the item you are trying to learn. Some level 1 skills are harder to learn than others. This is compounded if you have a low primary or secondary stat for that skill. The skill system in EVE takes a lot of time to learn to understand. My recommendation for ANY new player is this:
DO THE RESEARCH BEFORE CREATING YOUR CHARACTER..... Go to online forums, the EVE forums are VERY helpful, and ask questions, learn how best to set your character up BEFORE logging into the game. This will save you a LOT of frustration (I wish I had) initially. There are ways to spec your character so that right out the gate you can upgrade to a cruiser as soon as you finish the tutorial. This allows you to spend all your time in game on LEARNING SKILLS!!! Which brings me to the 2nd recommendation:
TRAIN IN LEARNING FIRST!!! Get all the core learning skills to at LEAST 4 before training anything else. It'll take a couple weeks but having all of them at 4 is a HUGE help. Some advocate going all the way to 5 but that IS a painful process and one I don't recommend for the faint of heart
PVP is not just who has the 'most and best' ships. There are a lot of tactics involved. Some battles will boil down to numerical advantage but usually the side with the better balance of ship types will win, almost regardless of size of fleet. A fleet of all frigates will get oblitterated by a well coordinated fleet of mixed ship types. A fleet with no tacklers will quickly get outflanked, out gunned and die horribly. A fleet with no jammers, tanks or what have you will die just as fast as a fleet that's massively outnumbered, even if they outnumber their opponent. It's not just about who has the most ships. it's who has the best plan, execution and, most importantly, the best pieces to fit their fleet together into a killing machine.
I don't like EVE, don't get me wrong. But you obviously haven't played it very long because your opinion of it looks pretty shallow. I took 3 months to learn the game before deciding whether it was for me or not. In that time I learned enough about the various systems to know how the game works, what works and doesn't and how best to do certain things in the game. EVE isn't one of those games you will pick up and master in a week or two. Even after 3 months I was still learning new things every time I turned around. The game is EXTREMELY complex and the learning curve is dauntingly steep. I'll also state that it's so complex and such a steep learning curve that many people get turned off before they even scratch the surface (as you did).
It's not a game for everyone.... the vast majority of gamers will not like it. It's a sandbox... and a VERY complex one at that. I respect EVE... but I do not like it. I find it rather boring. But to say it's a "grind" is unfair. EVE is.... what you make of it.... It's not a race... there's no reason to HAVE to get 40billion ISK... you only need a little to start... and a cruiser is all you ever need ok a cruiser, maybe an indie if you're into hauling cargo or ore, a frigate or two for tackling in PVP.... you don't ever HAVE to buy a bigger ship... If you're into mining you'll eventually want a mining ship... But the bottom line is all things come in time. EVE is only a 'grind' if you make it a grind. It's not like you have to reach X level in order to compete. You just need about 1-2 months worth of skill training, in which time you will make MORE Than enough to equip a frigate adequately for PVP. In 3 months you can have your own fleet. After 5-6 months you'll be in a battlecruiser.... there's no rush... EVE isn't about instant gratification... it's about the journey...
That said... again... I don't enjoy EVE. I agree that it's a pretty boring game (for me). But to say it's a grind? The only way EVE is a grind is if you make it one. Personally... I just find EVE too slow paced for my style of game play.
I'm tired of replying to the same posters who claim theres only one way to make money and the game is boring. Elnator should cut and paste his response and just repost it each time someone who doesn't try but one way to make money in the game, or not make any friends to play with. It is an MMO, you know. I disagree that it's boring, but it's not what the OP claims it to be.
Thanks Elnator, thats probably the best reply to these types of posts I've seen.
OP, you make the argument that EVE is a grind. My friend, Real Life is a grind, and by your logic, you probably want to quit Real Life.
People who take any game too serriously can get caught up in the "grinding mentality". Sure, money is important. It's important in every single RPG ever made.
EVE like all other MMORPGs (and table top RPGs) is about the social atmosphere. Be it that you might be in with a group of friends who want to control space itself, or who want to cause havoc on those trying to get there, or even those who wish to see every single orgnization dismantled, all MMOs are about social atmosphere. The second we forget this then THAT is when the game becomes a grind and fun no longer.
People move to different games because different tools and mechanics appeal to them.
For the WoWers the set tools and mechanics are very good for them. The community might have gone to hell in a handbasket, but for the mythical "Hardcore" gamers, it happens to be a game well suited to them.
EVE and Ryzom are not ment for the "Hardcore" Variety. They are litterally hobyist games (Same with the upcoming Uru Live!). Just because these games don't appeal to everyone doesn't mean they aren't fun to a good portion of people.
I think there are a lot of "Gamers" in this world who have it in their head that gaming is all about becoming the best. Of course, for the most part, they are correct. GAMING is about competition (Something which I take as a hobby with my friends). Role Playing, It doesn't matter what the game is MMO, Table top, etc..., has always been about the social atmosphere. This has always been and will forever be the purpose of an RPG. Ever since the creation of Gary's "Dungeons & Dragons" Table top RPG has the genre of RPGs been that of social interaction.
If you are a GAMER in the MMORPG genre of games, of course you will become painfully bored at all of them because of "grinds". Reason being, there is generally no end in how you can progress your characters. This annoys people and makes them do things they don't like to become better.
OP, you are a gamer. Go play Counter-Strike or something with competition. I think you'll find games like that more fulfilling to your tastes.
P.S. I'm both a Gamer and a Role Player. I like things from both ends of the spectrium. However, let us please not forget that MMO's are about envrionment. I think developers have forgotten the reason why we all have started to play RPGs. Our friends.
(1997) UO --> EQ -> Runescape -> DAoC -> WoW -> EVE + WAR (2008)
Originally posted by vendris Ok, I will accept this as your point, and admit I could have misunderstood what you were trying to express. No big deal.In this case, I would say that EVE has replaced "grinding" with "waiting". Subscription MMOs need some sort of time sink, or else players will tear through all of the content faster than developers can create the content. In most MMOs, the time sink is "grinding"... repetitive killing of enemies in order to gain experience to unlock new content. Earn enough experience, and you become powerful enough to go to new areas of the MMO.I would argue that EVE still has the grind... it's just, they've removed the requirement to actually play the grind. In other words, you grind time.I can make some pretty solid arguments for and against this approach. I think EVE's approach has significant benefits and significant draw backs. For me, I suppose in the end the drawbacks outweighed the benefits, as I'm no longer playing EVE. I don't like the psychology of waiting to be able to do something in an MMO.. I'd rather be directly contributing to my character advancement through my actions. You, on the other hand, feel that EVE's approach frees you from -having- to advance, because you'll advance over time no matter what you do (so long as you have enough ISK to afford your skills).In this case, I certainly can't say you're wrong and I'm right. I can say in the end, I didn't find EVE's approach fun for me personally, although plenty of people do seem to find it fun, and for those people (including yourself) I'm glad you found an MMO you are enjoying Originally posted by apertotes no, what i said is that isk is the only grind on EVE, acording to the OP, and this grind can be eliminated completely. it is you that are messing everything on your mind.
great , nice post
i, as a student, have very few time to actually play, and the time i can, i prefer to do things for my corp (like helping new players, moving stuff to and from the POS, defending the system on a gang...) than having to advance through an xp system. that is why i wouldnt be enjoying a xp-driven game, since i would feel forced to do quests or kill mobs to advance on the game. on EVE i can log in and just do whatever i enjoy most, without worrying about xp.
i guess i could enjoy a system like UO, too. but this game has been destroyed, and i havent find a non-official server with decent population (please, refrain from advertising any, since i believe it is not permitted here)
Hey, I like to argue, but I'll admit when I made a mistake I don't have a lot of time for gaming either (hour in the evenings, maybe two if I'm lucky). The reason CoV is my main game right now is that the missions are all in nice bite sized chunks, travel time isn't much of an issue, and there isn't a lot of forced grouping. So I can hop on, play a mission, and hop off if I feel like it, or when I have more time, I can rustle up a full group and play socially.
Like I said, I don't think EVE is a bad game, it's just not the game I choose to spend my limited gaming time playing
Originally posted by apertotes great , nice post i, as a student, have very few time to actually play, and the time i can, i prefer to do things for my corp (like helping new players, moving stuff to and from the POS, defending the system on a gang...) than having to advance through an xp system. that is why i wouldnt be enjoying a xp-driven game, since i would feel forced to do quests or kill mobs to advance on the game. on EVE i can log in and just do whatever i enjoy most, without worrying about xp. i guess i could enjoy a system like UO, too. but this game has been destroyed, and i havent find a non-official server with decent population (please, refrain from advertising any, since i believe it is not permitted here)
Originally posted by Souldrainer It seems to me that no one else has actually picked up on this. I played Eve for about a month, after whiche time, I realized I was grinding. I wasn't grinding for exp's or items. I was grinding for ISK (money) so I could upgrade things. There are dozens of ways to gain ISK's in Eve, but the bottom line is that missions are the fastest way. Not only that, but no matter which method you choose, each task gets very repetitive as you grind for money. Skill advancement is a joke. Why does it take a month to train some skills? Umm, because the developers said so, that's why. This is an arbitrary system which boils down to nothing more than a poorly masked time sink. Bounty hunting is encouraged, but is not a plausible profession. PVP comes down to who has the most and best ships, which hearkens back to the ISK grind. Skill based game? Not hardly. It's just as much of a grind as WoW or Everquest, if not more.
Sorry but i'll respectfully disagree with the OP and anyone else who says isk is a grind.
ISK is easy. I make 3-4 billion a month playing part time.
If you're grinding in EVE it's your own fault. The market is inflated due to the ease with which ISK is being made.
Originally posted by TreborLocke OP, you make the argument that EVE is a grind. My friend, Real Life is a grind, and by your logic, you probably want to quit Real Life.
We all have to play the game of life...
Thankfully no one is forcing me to play EVE. (Why would I want to do the "grind" in real life, and then in my relaxation/game time...um...do it again)
And to answer another post (from way back) asking to name a MMO with no grind...
Check my sig. (Not Dawn of War obviously)
PS. It's nice to see the names of some of the guys who were flaming me a few months back (when I was on my very own anti-EVE crusade) now saying the game is boring...haha...told ya.
Originally posted by TreborLocke OP, you make the argument that EVE is a grind. My friend, Real Life is a grind, and by your logic, you probably want to quit Real Life.
We all have to play the game of life...
Thankfully no one is forcing me to play EVE. (Why would I want to do the "grind" in real life, and then in my relaxation/game time...um...do it again)
And to answer another post (from way back) asking to name a MMO with no grind...
Check my sig. (Not Dawn of War obviously)
PS. It's nice to see the names of some of the guys who were flaming me a few months back (when I was on my very own anti-EVE crusade) now saying the game is boring...haha...told ya.
*checks your sig for an mmo with no grind*
Mate,there is no mmo in your signature. only 2 online games and a FPS.
Originally posted by Gameloading Originally posted by hadzOriginally posted by TreborLockeOP, you make the argument that EVE is a grind. My friend, Real Life is a grind, and by your logic, you probably want to quit Real Life. We all have to play the game of life... Thankfully no one is forcing me to play EVE. (Why would I want to do the "grind" in real life, and then in my relaxation/game time...um...do it again) And to answer another post (from way back) asking to name a MMO with no grind... Check my sig. (Not Dawn of War obviously) PS. It's nice to see the names of some of the guys who were flaming me a few months back (when I was on my very own anti-EVE crusade) now saying the game is boring...haha...told ya.*checks your sig for an mmo with no grind* Mate,there is no mmo in your signature. only 2 online games and a FPS.
Your game knowledge is off on both counts...
Dawn of War is an RTS and GW is, by all definitions, (including the list on this site) an MMO.
Originally posted by hadz Originally posted by Gameloading Originally posted by hadz Originally posted by TreborLockeOP, you make the argument that EVE is a grind. My friend, Real Life is a grind, and by your logic, you probably want to quit Real Life.
We all have to play the game of life... Thankfully no one is forcing me to play EVE. (Why would I want to do the "grind" in real life, and then in my relaxation/game time...um...do it again) And to answer another post (from way back) asking to name a MMO with no grind... Check my sig. (Not Dawn of War obviously) PS. It's nice to see the names of some of the guys who were flaming me a few months back (when I was on my very own anti-EVE crusade) now saying the game is boring...haha...told ya. *checks your sig for an mmo with no grind* Mate,there is no mmo in your signature. only 2 online games and a FPS. Your game knowledge is off on both counts... Dawn of War is an RTS and GW is, by all definitions, (including the list on this site) an MMO.
ah, an RTS, I forgot!, sorry about that, I havent been following the non-mmorpg market that well lately. well anyway, the developers of GW said its not an mmorpg, even the fansites mention its not an mmorpg. its the developers word against mmorpg.com, go ahead and pick.its not the first time mmorpg.com adds non-mmorpg games to its list. such as Rakion. also, ask yourself these questions:
Is Guild Wars multiplayer? yes Is Guild wars online? yes Is guild wars a roleplaying game? Yes Is guild wars massive? No Can you play with a massive amount of people in GW? No
Originally posted by Beatnik59 Originally posted by apertotes i invite you to re-read my previous posts and you will see i have always been talking about isks. why? because the OP seemed so f*ucked up by having to grind money, and he was comparing this grind to the grind on any other game. "yes, you dont have to grind for xp or items, but you have to grind for money, so in the end it is the same as any other game out there, EQ2, WoW..." well, that is were he (and you) is wrong, even though getting isk was accepted as a grind, it can be completely eliminated by friends and team play, and that is what differences EVE from any other game.
If the point you are trying to make is that you don't have to play to gain skills in EVE (because it trains automatically), and you don't have to play to gain ISK (because people give you ISK for reasons wholly outside the ability to earn it), then pray tell, what does it mean to have either?
Exactly one of the things I found so frustrating and un-fun about EVE. It's so arbitrary. You don't have to play to advance your skills... just log in periodically to start them on the next set. You don't have to play (much) to get boatloads of cash because your corp, once you join one, will pretty much obviate any 'grind' for cash. Trust me on this... corps are VERY generous to their members, especially good ones. So you're left with "Sit around and wait for your skills to train" WOOOBOY!!! THATS FUN...
EVE is boring to me, specifically because, while it's a sandbox it just seems pointless... there's no effort required to raise skills, just time... there's no effort required to raise money... even if a corp doesn't give it to you money isn't exactly hard to come by... it just... yup... takes time... You can do it pretty much with no risk at all to yourself.... Heck, In my 3 months of active play in release I was able to amass enough money to purchase: 2 frigates (one outfitted as a tackler, the other as a scout) 3 Cruisers (One miner, one PVP and one PVE) 1 Indie 2 Destroyers (tinkered with them for level 3 missions)
That's solo for the most part... I didn't join a corp till I had everything but the destroyers... EVE isn't hard, except for the PVP side of it. There's no real challenge unless you wander 0.0 - 0.4 space (actually 0.1 to 0.4 is the most dangerous area in the entire game. Pirates don't generally risk themselves in 0.0, they like to warp point gank folks in places where real PVP'ers don't bother to go because it's not worth the criminal hit.
But I digress: I agree with you completely... EVE just isn't fun... getting skills requires zero effort. Getting money requires very little, to no, effort. Just time... EVE is a giant time sink... the entire game is geared to make you wait for things.... Wait for ore to finish mining... wait to fly to the station... wait to fly from the end of your warp to the jumpgate... etc. It's not a BAD game... it's just a boring game. Some folks absolutely love the game. Personally I find it boring. It's NOT a grind, though.... EVE has many problems that I've griped about to the point where the eve fans hate me But being a grind? Nah, not one of them.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Originally posted by Beatnik59 Originally posted by apertotes i invite you to re-read my previous posts and you will see i have always been talking about isks. why? because the OP seemed so f*ucked up by having to grind money, and he was comparing this grind to the grind on any other game. "yes, you dont have to grind for xp or items, but you have to grind for money, so in the end it is the same as any other game out there, EQ2, WoW..." well, that is were he (and you) is wrong, even though getting isk was accepted as a grind, it can be completely eliminated by friends and team play, and that is what differences EVE from any other game.If the point you are trying to make is that you don't have to play to gain skills in EVE (because it trains automatically), and you don't have to play to gain ISK (because people give you ISK for reasons wholly outside the ability to earn it), then pray tell, what does it mean to have either?
well, that is the best thing, you dont HAVE to play. your character advances whether you play or not, and it is so easy to win money, that it can be achieved just by dedicating 1 or 2 hours a week. so there is no grind at all.
so what's left? the game. just play, have fun. make decisions, fight, claim soverignity, make friends, do complexes... arent you able to enjoy a game without grinding? of course, if playing EVE is not fun to you, then this will say nothing to you. but i enjoy doing a lot of things without having to worry about money or xp. i just have to decide what will i train and what is my goal, and i will get there sometime.
i am sick of games that force you to do something to advance, whether it is questing, killing mobs or jumping 100 times (ala Morrowind). i want to enjoy the parts of the game i like most. i cant get to level 60 on WoW just crafting, or trading. i need to quest. that is a minus for me. what if i dont want to quest or kill orcs? i will be level 1 forever. why does the guy that does quests have to advance faster than me that i enjoy crafting and gathering resources? i find it really unfair.
i dont know about EQ2, but i dont think you get xp by crafting or casting healing spells.
so, bottomline. EVE is a very deep and complex game, with many options and tools for the player to do many things and even change the world map. and the best part is that you can focuss on any one of all those diferent paths or options you enjoy more than the others (mining, pvp, trading, producing, science, pirating, bounty hunter, politics, corp management, big scale industry, spying, mercenaire, etc), and you will still advance the same than the guy that is doing missions non stop, or killing rats 23/7. in short, you can ROLEPLAY, and not have to worry about how many more giant spiders you have to kill to advance to the next level.
The biggest misconception that some people have about EVE is, that they try to play it like a "usual" MMO. They try to find "quests", they try to do "crafting" and ..... well.... mostly that's about it - at least according to them. Then they come to the Forums and complain how their expectation were either not fullfilled or dissapointed, and that people (or more unpolitely, EVE-Fanbois) are wrong about seeing in EVE "freedom of play". They are also ignorant to any sensible argument about other ways to earn cash or other activities, because they "want to play the game the way they like it". No problem, DO it - but don't blame your lack of imagination on EVE. When joining EVE get rid of the "I have to grind to get the best armor and best weapon in-game and wtfpwnz0r everyone mentality", or else you will be dissapointed horribly.
I know it will be ignored again, but nonetheless here is a key to enjoy EVE: EVE is all about interacting with other people, be it by shooting, helping, buying from and/or selling to them. It's not the activity you do, but WHY you do it what is important.
You can mine all day for your own purse, which would definitely get boring within short time. But what about mining for a corporation that is at war with an other one, and is in desperate need for ships. Delivering those ships through hostile terrirtory even adds to the excitement (and the price tag ofc). Or better yet..... strike a deal with both warring corps and fueling their hatred against each other by arranging "incidents" so you can sell your ships even longer to them. Your main activity (mining/production) hasn't changed, yet your level of play changed significantly.
RP Wars, Player owned Stations, 0.0 Space, Low sec, Empire building, Preying on Traders or Alliance Supply ships, Becoming a Trademogul, etc. All activities that are more than the sum of their parts, and which indeed allow you a very high (ofc not total - it's still a game) degree of freedom.
So EVE may be a "grind" sometimes, but ultimately, in contrast to other games, that "grind" has a reason other than to "get the best stuff and get a lot of XPs" - usually a lot more fullfilling reasons.
------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Mandolin
Designers need to move away from the old D&D level-based model which was never designed for player vs player combat in the first place.
you are all worse than a bunch of teenage virgin girls Ive never read such a bunch of shit in my life!!!! Why cant you just accept that some people like EVE and some dont, Some people like WOW and some dont, every one is different. I personaly dont find the need to flame a game if I dont like it ... i just stop playing it. to the original author get a life dude, get a girlfriend.
... and yes i know im gonna get flamed for this but i dont give a rats arse!! there was realy no point at all to this bitchy discussion.
Hehe. I don't think the best selling point of a game is that you don't have to play it at all After all, I can just play (er, not play, as the case may be) Progress Quest for free
And yes, I'm teasing a little. There *are* fun things to do in EVE. You have to work a little to find them, because players, not the game developers, set the agendas. The key to having fun in EVE is to find an ambitious corporation to join and help them with their goals.
well, that is the best thing, you dont HAVE to play. your character advances whether you play or not, and it is so easy to win money, that it can be achieved just by dedicating 1 or 2 hours a week. so there is no grind at all.
EVE is player-driven and open-ended. There is a grind in the game if you want there to be, and many players coming from other MMOGs lock into that grind because its what they know how to do. That doesnt mean anything other then people find what they look for.
Comments
oh sh*t. i didnt know i wasnt allowed to have fun while playing EVE!!!!! so, what is it that i am doing wrong? cause i am having fun.
You said it in an earlier post in this very thread. To directly quote your post from
7/06/06
12:05:21 PM:
"but can someone give you xp on any other game? cause on EVE veteran
players can give all the isk they want, so if you think you have to
grind, you can join a corp and get that grind to a incredible low
level. can you do that in EQ2? can you join a guild and instantly raise
from level 1 to level 35?"
Could you really not remember something you said earlier in this thread?
EVE is an interesting game, with some fairly groundbreaking things in it, as far as MMOs go. Replacing "grinding" (actually playing the game) with "staring at the screen waiting for skills to advance" is NOT one of those groundbreaking ideas. It's just a time sink.
when did i say that? i am really sorry for you. if all you see is a grind, then it is your fault. i am playing EVE and not grinding, and so far i have been very succesful. i know many people ingame that feel the same way i do.
if you are not able to play without grinding, then i feel pity for you
ah, so it is not true that veteran players can give money to new players? that is what i said. i said that the OP stated that on EVE you had to grind for isk, not xp. great, even if we accept that it is needed to grind for isk (which it isnt), but even then, you can get your grinding done by a veteran that can give you 100 million so that you have enough money for your first 6 months of game.
i never claimed that veteran players could give skill points to new players, as you can read on the lines you perfectly quoted.
You directly implied that EVE was the only game where veteran players could give advancement to new players. Now, you claim you only meant money without any implication of advancement? Which point are you actually arguing?
If you are arguing that isk = character advancement (you *directly* compared giving isk to a new player, to instantly raising a new player to 35th level in other MMOs) then you are wrong. *Skills* are character advancement in EVE. ISK does not make your skills train faster. Buying a fancy ship with tech 2 gear does nothing for a new player, because they don't have the skills to use them.
Now, you are claiming you didn't mean to imply this, and that you just meant isk. Well, your *point* was that EVE was the only game that let you do this. *Every* MMO on the market that I can think of will let you give money to anyone that you want. So, if this new position you are claiming you were arguing all along (which you weren't) is the position you choose to argue, then you're still wrong.
I hear what you are saying, but consider for a moment the proportion of what we can control, over the proportion that is ultimately outside of our control.
There is one thing that I know, with absolute certainty, is wholly within the player's control in EVE. That is the decision to keep paying the subscription fee. One can also say the same thing about playing roulette.
After that point, factors wholly outside the control of the player start to influence the player's game. That is not to say the player cannot control anything at all, but there comes a point where factors wholly unrelated to a player's actions start to play a role in the player's game.
Take for example skills. Yes, you can pay for the client an a month subscription fee to train all the learning skills, on the premise that a compromised game for a few months will lead to a better game down the road. The problem though is, what if the player who trains all the learning skills, after getting seriously involved in corporations and PvP, discovers that they don't like the game? In a sense, this player paid and played for two months that they did not need to pay and play, in preparation for a future that they did not find very appealing when they got there.
Take for example corporations and friends. You can get in a corporation that from every indication is good and stable. You can be respectful. You can do what they tell you. You can look out for them. You can plug away for your director like a good soldier in exchange for some future reward. You may even get the reward just as predicted. It can just as easily be the case though that the director is getting rich of your hard work and sacrifice, and has no intention of ever giving you what was promised.
It can just as easily be the case that you don't do much work at all, and get rewarded far in excess of what you should. Or that you get stock and dividends and earn ISK just by existing, and not doing anything at all. In all these cases though, the results are very much determined by things that are outside the individual player's control to predict and influence fully, and I do emphasize fully. Yes there are things you can control. There are also things one cannot control. The difference between an idealized notion of what EVE is about as opposed to a realistic one is that the idealist interprets luck as skill, and bad luck as bad skill.
Ultimately, if someone doesn't like you or respect you, nothing you can say or do is going to force people to like you, respect you, help you, and protect you. Yes, there is freedom in EVE. Players are free to call a new player a scamming alt, and whether or not the new player is one in truth really doesn't matter. Because there is freedom in EVE, there is nothing that forces people to care, even when they should.
Many here have said that the EVE community is mature and helpful. I think it also has to be said that the EVE community is also very entrenched, very "hardcore," and doesn't really need to care about new players. They have the freedom to choose who they help and who they hurt. And for every player that is helped, there may be just as many that are hurt.
Who decides whether you are helped or hurt? At best, a player can only control half of the equasion. The other half is, again, a matter of the other's preference.
So what am I trying to say by all this? I guess I am trying to say that it is inevitable that EVE screws some players over, for no other reason than factors outside a player's control. Because much of what we gain and lose is dependent on things that do not afford us the opportunity to influence them, it means that for as much as players play EVE, EVE also plays them, and in some cases, plays them for fools.
I'd go so far as to say there are four types of EVE experience:
1) Those who are good players, and get a fulfilling experience due to their actions.
2) Those who are bad players, and still get a fulfilling experience due to factors unrealted to their actions.
3) Those who are good players, and get an unfulfilling experience due to factors unrelated to their actions.
4) Those who are careless, and get an unfulfilling experience due to their actions.
Category one and four are what the "vets" will say are the only two valid EVE experiences, but its far more complex than that. Two and three happen quite often as well, and it is inevitable that they do when half of what happens in EVE is due to things outside of a player's control.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
no, what i said is that isk is the only grind on EVE, acording to the OP, and this grind can be eliminated completely.
it is you that are messing everything on your mind. i said that EVE is the only game where the biggest grind (in fact, the only one according to the OP) can be completely eliminated with the help of some friends.
on any other game, even though your friends can give you all the money you need, you will still have to grind for xp. on EVE there is no grind whatsoever.
i invite you to re-read my previous posts and you will see i have always been talking about isks. why? because the OP seemed so f*ucked up by having to grind money, and he was comparing this grind to the grind on any other game. "yes, you dont have to grind for xp or items, but you have to grind for money, so in the end it is the same as any other game out there, EQ2, WoW..." well, that is were he (and you) is wrong, even though getting isk was accepted as a grind, it can be completely eliminated by friends and team play, and that is what differences EVE from any other game.
if you could be relieved from xp grinding on WoW or EQ2, then i would accept that EVE was as grindy as the rest.
If the point you are trying to make is that you don't have to play to gain skills in EVE (because it trains automatically), and you don't have to play to gain ISK (because people give you ISK for reasons wholly outside the ability to earn it), then pray tell, what does it mean to have either?
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
In this case, I would say that EVE has replaced "grinding" with "waiting". Subscription MMOs need some sort of time sink, or else players will tear through all of the content faster than developers can create the content. In most MMOs, the time sink is "grinding"... repetitive killing of enemies in order to gain experience to unlock new content. Earn enough experience, and you become powerful enough to go to new areas of the MMO.
I would argue that EVE still has the grind... it's just, they've removed the requirement to actually play the grind. In other words, you grind time.
I can make some pretty solid arguments for and against this approach. I think EVE's approach has significant benefits and significant draw backs. For me, I suppose in the end the drawbacks outweighed the benefits, as I'm no longer playing EVE. I don't like the psychology of waiting to be able to do something in an MMO.. I'd rather be directly contributing to my character advancement through my actions. You, on the other hand, feel that EVE's approach frees you from -having- to advance, because you'll advance over time no matter what you do (so long as you have enough ISK to afford your skills).
In this case, I certainly can't say you're wrong and I'm right. I can say in the end, I didn't find EVE's approach fun for me personally, although plenty of people do seem to find it fun, and for those people (including yourself) I'm glad you found an MMO you are enjoying
Alternative methods of making money include:
Those are just a few off the top of my head, and I don't even like EVE.
I don't like EVE, don't get me wrong. But you obviously haven't played it very long because your opinion of it looks pretty shallow. I took 3 months to learn the game before deciding whether it was for me or not. In that time I learned enough about the various systems to know how the game works, what works and doesn't and how best to do certain things in the game. EVE isn't one of those games you will pick up and master in a week or two. Even after 3 months I was still learning new things every time I turned around. The game is EXTREMELY complex and the learning curve is dauntingly steep. I'll also state that it's so complex and such a steep learning curve that many people get turned off before they even scratch the surface (as you did).
It's not a game for everyone.... the vast majority of gamers will not like it. It's a sandbox... and a VERY complex one at that. I respect EVE... but I do not like it. I find it rather boring. But to say it's a "grind" is unfair. EVE is.... what you make of it.... It's not a race... there's no reason to HAVE to get 40billion ISK... you only need a little to start... and a cruiser is all you ever need ok a cruiser, maybe an indie if you're into hauling cargo or ore, a frigate or two for tackling in PVP.... you don't ever HAVE to buy a bigger ship... If you're into mining you'll eventually want a mining ship... But the bottom line is all things come in time. EVE is only a 'grind' if you make it a grind. It's not like you have to reach X level in order to compete. You just need about 1-2 months worth of skill training, in which time you will make MORE Than enough to equip a frigate adequately for PVP. In 3 months you can have your own fleet. After 5-6 months you'll be in a battlecruiser.... there's no rush... EVE isn't about instant gratification... it's about the journey...
That said... again... I don't enjoy EVE. I agree that it's a pretty boring game (for me). But to say it's a grind? The only way EVE is a grind is if you make it one. Personally... I just find EVE too slow paced for my style of game play.
I'm tired of replying to the same posters who claim theres only one way to make money and the game is boring. Elnator should cut and paste his response and just repost it each time someone who doesn't try but one way to make money in the game, or not make any friends to play with. It is an MMO, you know. I disagree that it's boring, but it's not what the OP claims it to be.
Thanks Elnator, thats probably the best reply to these types of posts I've seen.
http://www.TheGamersAssociation.com
A quick interlude.
OP, you make the argument that EVE is a grind. My friend, Real Life is a grind, and by your logic, you probably want to quit Real Life.
People who take any game too serriously can get caught up in the "grinding mentality". Sure, money is important. It's important in every single RPG ever made.
EVE like all other MMORPGs (and table top RPGs) is about the social atmosphere. Be it that you might be in with a group of friends who want to control space itself, or who want to cause havoc on those trying to get there, or even those who wish to see every single orgnization dismantled, all MMOs are about social atmosphere. The second we forget this then THAT is when the game becomes a grind and fun no longer.
People move to different games because different tools and mechanics appeal to them.
For the WoWers the set tools and mechanics are very good for them. The community might have gone to hell in a handbasket, but for the mythical "Hardcore" gamers, it happens to be a game well suited to them.
EVE and Ryzom are not ment for the "Hardcore" Variety. They are litterally hobyist games (Same with the upcoming Uru Live!). Just because these games don't appeal to everyone doesn't mean they aren't fun to a good portion of people.
I think there are a lot of "Gamers" in this world who have it in their head that gaming is all about becoming the best. Of course, for the most part, they are correct. GAMING is about competition (Something which I take as a hobby with my friends). Role Playing, It doesn't matter what the game is MMO, Table top, etc..., has always been about the social atmosphere. This has always been and will forever be the purpose of an RPG. Ever since the creation of Gary's "Dungeons & Dragons" Table top RPG has the genre of RPGs been that of social interaction.
If you are a GAMER in the MMORPG genre of games, of course you will become painfully bored at all of them because of "grinds". Reason being, there is generally no end in how you can progress your characters. This annoys people and makes them do things they don't like to become better.
OP, you are a gamer. Go play Counter-Strike or something with competition. I think you'll find games like that more fulfilling to your tastes.
P.S. I'm both a Gamer and a Role Player. I like things from both ends of the spectrium. However, let us please not forget that MMO's are about envrionment. I think developers have forgotten the reason why we all have started to play RPGs. Our friends.
(1997) UO --> EQ -> Runescape -> DAoC -> WoW -> EVE + WAR (2008)
great
, nice post 
i, as a student, have very few time to actually play, and the time i can, i prefer to do things for my corp (like helping new players, moving stuff to and from the POS, defending the system on a gang...) than having to advance through an xp system. that is why i wouldnt be enjoying a xp-driven game, since i would feel forced to do quests or kill mobs to advance on the game. on EVE i can log in and just do whatever i enjoy most, without worrying about xp.
i guess i could enjoy a system like UO, too. but this game has been destroyed, and i havent find a non-official server with decent population (please, refrain from advertising any, since i believe it is not permitted here)
Like I said, I don't think EVE is a bad game, it's just not the game I choose to spend my limited gaming time playing
Sorry but i'll respectfully disagree with the OP and anyone else who says isk is a grind.
ISK is easy. I make 3-4 billion a month playing part time.
If you're grinding in EVE it's your own fault. The market is inflated due to the ease with which ISK is being made.
Make a difference!
We all have to play the game of life...
Thankfully no one is forcing me to play EVE. (Why would I want to do the "grind" in real life, and then in my relaxation/game time...um...do it again)
And to answer another post (from way back) asking to name a MMO with no grind...
Check my sig. (Not Dawn of War obviously)
PS. It's nice to see the names of some of the guys who were flaming me a few months back (when I was on my very own anti-EVE crusade) now saying the game is boring...haha...told ya.
We all have to play the game of life...
Thankfully no one is forcing me to play EVE. (Why would I want to do the "grind" in real life, and then in my relaxation/game time...um...do it again)
And to answer another post (from way back) asking to name a MMO with no grind...
Check my sig. (Not Dawn of War obviously)
PS. It's nice to see the names of some of the guys who were flaming me a few months back (when I was on my very own anti-EVE crusade) now saying the game is boring...haha...told ya.
*checks your sig for an mmo with no grind*
Mate,there is no mmo in your signature. only 2 online games and a FPS.
Your game knowledge is off on both counts...
Dawn of War is an RTS and GW is, by all definitions, (including the list on this site) an MMO.
ah, an RTS, I forgot!, sorry about that, I havent been following the non-mmorpg market that well lately. well anyway, the developers of GW said its not an mmorpg, even the fansites mention its not an mmorpg. its the developers word against mmorpg.com, go ahead and pick.its not the first time mmorpg.com adds non-mmorpg games to its list. such as Rakion. also, ask yourself these questions:
Is Guild Wars multiplayer? yes
Is Guild wars online? yes
Is guild wars a roleplaying game? Yes
Is guild wars massive? No
Can you play with a massive amount of people in GW? No
I make about 20 million ISK a day in EVE and almost never run a mission. Only time I run missions are when I want a change of pace.
I play EVE to earn ISK. It's what fascinates me about the game. It's a huge capitalism simulation, and that's what I play it for.
If the point you are trying to make is that you don't have to play to gain skills in EVE (because it trains automatically), and you don't have to play to gain ISK (because people give you ISK for reasons wholly outside the ability to earn it), then pray tell, what does it mean to have either?
EVE is boring to me, specifically because, while it's a sandbox it just seems pointless... there's no effort required to raise skills, just time... there's no effort required to raise money... even if a corp doesn't give it to you money isn't exactly hard to come by... it just... yup... takes time... You can do it pretty much with no risk at all to yourself.... Heck, In my 3 months of active play in release I was able to amass enough money to purchase:
2 frigates (one outfitted as a tackler, the other as a scout)
3 Cruisers (One miner, one PVP and one PVE)
1 Indie
2 Destroyers (tinkered with them for level 3 missions)
That's solo for the most part... I didn't join a corp till I had everything but the destroyers... EVE isn't hard, except for the PVP side of it. There's no real challenge unless you wander 0.0 - 0.4 space (actually 0.1 to 0.4 is the most dangerous area in the entire game. Pirates don't generally risk themselves in 0.0, they like to warp point gank folks in places where real PVP'ers don't bother to go because it's not worth the criminal hit.
But I digress:
I agree with you completely... EVE just isn't fun... getting skills requires zero effort. Getting money requires very little, to no, effort. Just time... EVE is a giant time sink... the entire game is geared to make you wait for things.... Wait for ore to finish mining... wait to fly to the station... wait to fly from the end of your warp to the jumpgate... etc. It's not a BAD game... it's just a boring game. Some folks absolutely love the game. Personally I find it boring. It's NOT a grind, though.... EVE has many problems that I've griped about to the point where the eve fans hate me
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
well, that is the best thing, you dont HAVE to play. your character advances whether you play or not, and it is so easy to win money, that it can be achieved just by dedicating 1 or 2 hours a week. so there is no grind at all.
so what's left? the game. just play, have fun. make decisions, fight, claim soverignity, make friends, do complexes... arent you able to enjoy a game without grinding? of course, if playing EVE is not fun to you, then this will say nothing to you. but i enjoy doing a lot of things without having to worry about money or xp. i just have to decide what will i train and what is my goal, and i will get there sometime.
i am sick of games that force you to do something to advance, whether it is questing, killing mobs or jumping 100 times (ala Morrowind). i want to enjoy the parts of the game i like most. i cant get to level 60 on WoW just crafting, or trading. i need to quest. that is a minus for me. what if i dont want to quest or kill orcs? i will be level 1 forever. why does the guy that does quests have to advance faster than me that i enjoy crafting and gathering resources? i find it really unfair.
i dont know about EQ2, but i dont think you get xp by crafting or casting healing spells.
so, bottomline. EVE is a very deep and complex game, with many options and tools for the player to do many things and even change the world map. and the best part is that you can focuss on any one of all those diferent paths or options you enjoy more than the others (mining, pvp, trading, producing, science, pirating, bounty hunter, politics, corp management, big scale industry, spying, mercenaire, etc), and you will still advance the same than the guy that is doing missions non stop, or killing rats 23/7. in short, you can ROLEPLAY, and not have to worry about how many more giant spiders you have to kill to advance to the next level.
The biggest misconception that some people have about EVE is, that they try to play it like a "usual" MMO. They try to find "quests", they try to do "crafting" and ..... well.... mostly that's about it - at least according to them. Then they come to the Forums and complain how their expectation were either not fullfilled or dissapointed, and that people (or more unpolitely, EVE-Fanbois) are wrong about seeing in EVE "freedom of play". They are also ignorant to any sensible argument about other ways to earn cash or other activities, because they "want to play the game the way they like it". No problem, DO it - but don't blame your lack of imagination on EVE. When joining EVE get rid of the "I have to grind to get the best armor and best weapon in-game and wtfpwnz0r everyone mentality", or else you will be dissapointed horribly.
I know it will be ignored again, but nonetheless here is a key to enjoy EVE:
EVE is all about interacting with other people, be it by shooting, helping, buying from and/or selling to them. It's not the activity you do, but WHY you do it what is important.
You can mine all day for your own purse, which would definitely get boring within short time. But what about mining for a corporation that is at war with an other one, and is in desperate need for ships. Delivering those ships through hostile terrirtory even adds to the excitement (and the price tag ofc). Or better yet..... strike a deal with both warring corps and fueling their hatred against each other by arranging "incidents" so you can sell your ships even longer to them. Your main activity (mining/production) hasn't changed, yet your level of play changed significantly.
RP Wars, Player owned Stations, 0.0 Space, Low sec, Empire building, Preying on Traders or Alliance Supply ships, Becoming a Trademogul, etc. All activities that are more than the sum of their parts, and which indeed allow you a very high (ofc not total - it's still a game) degree of freedom.
So EVE may be a "grind" sometimes, but ultimately, in contrast to other games, that "grind" has a reason other than to "get the best stuff and get a lot of XPs" - usually a lot more fullfilling reasons.
------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mandolin
Designers need to move away from the old D&D level-based model which was never designed for player vs player combat in the first place.
OH FOR CRYING IN A BUCKET
you are all worse than a bunch of teenage virgin girls Ive never read such a bunch of shit in my life!!!! Why cant you just accept that some people like EVE and some dont, Some people like WOW and some dont, every one is different. I personaly dont find the need to flame a game if I dont like it ... i just stop playing it. to the original author get a life dude, get a girlfriend.
... and yes i know im gonna get flamed for this but i dont give a rats arse!! there was realy no point at all to this bitchy discussion.
Hehe. I don't think the best selling point of a game is that you don't have to play it at all
http://www.progressquest.com/
And yes, I'm teasing a little. There *are* fun things to do in EVE. You have to work a little to find them, because players, not the game developers, set the agendas. The key to having fun in EVE is to find an ambitious corporation to join and help them with their goals.
you want there to be, and many players coming from other MMOGs lock
into that grind because its what they know how to do. That doesnt mean
anything other then people find what they look for.