granted he prob follows the sterotypical build(that every ganker uses) for the game that does the most damage(supposedly) and spends half his life training it up.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
Originally posted by period UO had a playerbase of i think 250k? Back when there was no trammel BS or no insurance or neon oooo colored items.Incorrect
. Their numbers quadrupled to about 250K subscribers when Trammel was implemented.
To set a few illusions correct. The game before the trammel expansion had 190.000 subscribers. I looked up the data a few months ago, in a similar topic discussion, where people overexaggerated the before & after numbers.
You can clearly tell from the original numbers, that after trammel the veds stayed around for a few months, and started to leave after that. And the only reason why UO didnt fall to a 50.000 subscription was because they kept targeting the new players, who wanted it easy & fast ( only to just as quickly leave ).
Blade: "why don't u just go play UO if its so great?"
Where have you been these few years? UO old school != UO today. UO today = diablo & eq mix. No risk, no reward, no hard earned items. It took me only a week or 2 when i tried UO again a few years ago, to buy a house. Something that wasn't to be done in old school UO unless you where working at it for months ( mostly because of the dangers surrounding money making off mining, monster hunting, etc ).
Eve Online is a perfect example that catering to the loyal & hardcore fans, will enable you to build up a game, with a dedicated fanbase that grows, without resorting to newbie ( new players ) hunting ( attracting ) to keep subscriptions up.
Hi i'm a programmer and i have to build a game for school... We decided for a MMORPG... And i saw your Topic and was wondering what you mean? could you give some examples and things you all would like in a game? Then i know what to look at in my game... Or maybe when i build a new one... You say no lvling? but then what would you like in your game? if there is no lvling, then what will you let the players do instead? if nothing is replaced then they will get bored... (people play games to get out of there dayly rotation of tasks)
If you want truly competive, skill based PvP, play team based first person shooters. In skill based MMOs with PvP, the person who wins the encounter is the person who has devoted the most time to grinding up their skills, and who has the best skill combination for PvP. So, people with no lives who can play all day and follow the flavor of the month build get to run around ganking everyone they see, and casual players and players who don't want to focus on combat get to pay their monthly fee to be gank fodder for people who get their kicks out of ruining other peoples gameplay.
Warhammer Online is promising to be a PvP-centic, skill-based, non-level MMO, however it doesn't come out for another year, and it's just promises at this point.
In case you haven't noticed, promises don't hold well in the creation of MMOs. So, for the both of us, let's hope it sticks to that.
And I'm not an old UO player, or an "Uber 1337 PvPer", I'm just a little worn out on dungeons and instances myself.
I have to agree with vendris. If you want fair, good PvP, play FPS. PvP in MMOs is almost never challenging on both sides. Even if there's level/skill restrictions, unless there's also gear/item restrictions (which would be too hard to implement if there are plenty of items ingame), it's not challenging.
And if you really do like PvP, you like it for the challenge. You're not hiding on the other side of the world grinding so that you can gank newbies later. That's not PvP, that's teenage angst trying to escape.
Personally, I think full PK usually does not belong in MMORPGs. That being said, I'm not exactly a "carebear". I've done my fair share of PvP, but I only truly enjoyed it when it was for a PURPOSE. A purpose is not "stealing that newbie's only valuable item" or "advancing in the PvP ladder". A purpose should involve teamwork like, "getting the guild together to take over a city". But noone's getting that right, so I'd just prefer to have no PvP at all.
If I want to play teamwork, I'll play MMORPGs. If I want to PvP, I'll play FPS. If I want an actual storyline in a game, I'll play a single player RPG. That's what the genres do correctly, so that's how I play them.
But if you say that then there is no future for MMORPG's... People will stop playing them and play FPS and RPG's... But no more MMORPG's...
I'm curretly studying to be a game programmer. But with this comment my dreams of building MMORPG's are being destroyed... Instead of complaining try to come up with a solution... If not for yourself do it for the future of MMORPG's... I think PKing makes the game more realistic tho, but it f*cks up the gameplay for other gamers. So we have to find a balance... I like the thought of PvPing with your guild over a territory tho.
But PvP is and has been a part of MMORPG's and i doubt it wil go away... People like to fight other people even if there weaker... But mindless wandering of player is a sign of boredom and can only be solved by new things in a game... The only solution to that is to keep the game intresting and fun to play. So people dont get bored when there maxed lvl... I've seen it more then once: a player who kills newbies just because he is bored...
To be honest, I think one of the major problems with MMORPG development is that the programmers are allowed to contribute ideas to the gameplay. Programmers think binary logic, and they say "If progress equals player satisfaction, then endless progress equals endless satisfaction." And that's wrong. Programmers make fancy algebraeic functions that determine player strength, but again, that's wrong.
I'm not against levels, not at all, however I am definitely against player strength being tied proportionally to the player level. That's VERY wrong, and that's where PVP fails in most/all MMOGs. PVP lacks the human factor; and thus PVP is considered boring and dull by many players, because they can't outsmart others. It's all about who spends the most time training <stat>/<skill> to the highest level, and pots fastest. It's not about battle tactics, luck and human error. I don't think I've ever seen a MMOG where you can actually surprise your opponent in any way, or where a guy, who is like 10 levels lower can still win the fight, simply because he's the smarter one and knows how to move or how to aim. MMOGs are too automated, and because of that PVP will never work.
Like manday and vendris say, FPS' are the games that have fun PVPing, because of the human factor. You're the one in control. You're the one that decides who win, and if you want your chances to increase, you have to train yourself, not your character.
Thats not true for corporate game companies like Sony, EA, and Vivendi. You actually have dedicated designers. Not even the artists get a say in the game design. Its all the designers who then discuss with the programmers whats possible to do and meet certain specs and time frames.
Originally posted by keke` I'm not against levels, not at all, however I am definitely against player strength being tied proportionally to the player level. That's VERY wrong, and that's where PVP fails in most/all MMOGs. PVP lacks the human factor; and thus PVP is considered boring and dull by many players, because they can't outsmart others. It's all about who spends the most time training <stat>/<skill> to the highest level, and pots fastest. It's not about battle tactics, luck and human error. I don't think I've ever seen a MMOG where you can actually surprise your opponent in any way, or where a guy, who is like 10 levels lower can still win the fight, simply because he's the smarter one and knows how to move or how to aim. MMOGs are too automated, and because of that PVP will never work.
thats a fault of the gameplay itself. in an open sandbox game theres ALWAYS a way to kill the uber-geared player, be it only with sheer numbers (zerg ftw ).
1on1 and group-pvp are two totally different topics.
Originally posted by DemonBoy But if you say that then there is no future for MMORPG's... People will stop playing them and play FPS and RPG's... But no more MMORPG's... I'm curretly studying to be a game programmer. But with this comment my dreams of building MMORPG's are being destroyed... Instead of complaining try to come up with a solution... If not for yourself do it for the future of MMORPG's... I think PKing makes the game more realistic tho, but it f*cks up the gameplay for other gamers. So we have to find a balance... I like the thought of PvPing with your guild over a territory tho. But PvP is and has been a part of MMORPG's and i doubt it wil go away... People like to fight other people even if there weaker... But mindless wandering of player is a sign of boredom and can only be solved by new things in a game... The only solution to that is to keep the game intresting and fun to play. So people dont get bored when there maxed lvl... I've seen it more then once: a player who kills newbies just because he is bored...
The best game I've found to date that has a good foundation for what it would take for a good PvP game is Saga of Ryzom, Demonboy. It is totally skill based and open ended as to what you do with your character. You can learn and do everything that another player can do, but at your pace and with you choice of playstyle. The pvp system is actually good fundamentally. You can choose whether to Pvp or not in most areas but it also has multiple PvP enabled zones that require a smart player who wants to forage for items or trek through the area and is not far advanced infighting skill to invite an escort from guildmates or hire a mercenary-type player for protection. There are also guildwars for ownership of outposts which provide bonuses to the players who own it. However, due to a lower subscription count because of a slow launch( game was released at the same time as WoW, and the devs admit it was released to soon to compete. Now that they are getting an influx of players from the new unlimited newbie island trial, people are subscribing everyday. Many of the SWG vets are migrating there and are amazed how much the gameplay reminds them of SWG in its heyday. Now with money coming in they can finally implement some of the grander ideas they had at the beginning. This game however will never be PvP centric as that is not what the devs envisioned, nor is it what the majority of the players want. But I would suggest trying this game to see what could be tweaked if you wanted a PvP game people would enjoy for a long time. And it is run and designed by a small, independant company so it shows you can make it without a large publisher.
Comments
hmmm i don't think he realizes he can lose too.
granted he prob follows the sterotypical build(that every ganker uses) for the game that does the most damage(supposedly) and spends half his life training it up.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
I'm looking into eve.
--
I'd like a noncare bear game as well, with non level system.
- I'm gonna have to try eve
. Their numbers quadrupled to about 250K subscribers when Trammel was implemented.
To set a few illusions correct. The game before the trammel expansion had 190.000 subscribers. I looked up the data a few months ago, in a similar topic discussion, where people overexaggerated the before & after numbers.
You can clearly tell from the original numbers, that after trammel the veds stayed around for a few months, and started to leave after that. And the only reason why UO didnt fall to a 50.000 subscription was because they kept targeting the new players, who wanted it easy & fast ( only to just as quickly leave ).
Blade: "why don't u just go play UO if its so great?"
Where have you been these few years? UO old school != UO today. UO today = diablo & eq mix. No risk, no reward, no hard earned items. It took me only a week or 2 when i tried UO again a few years ago, to buy a house. Something that wasn't to be done in old school UO unless you where working at it for months ( mostly because of the dangers surrounding money making off mining, monster hunting, etc ).
Eve Online is a perfect example that catering to the loyal & hardcore fans, will enable you to build up a game, with a dedicated fanbase that grows, without resorting to newbie ( new players ) hunting ( attracting ) to keep subscriptions up.
'Captain! We're surrounded!!'
'Excellent! Now we can attack in any direction!'
In case you haven't noticed, promises don't hold well in the creation of MMOs. So, for the both of us, let's hope it sticks to that.
And I'm not an old UO player, or an "Uber 1337 PvPer", I'm just a little worn out on dungeons and instances myself.
I have to agree with vendris. If you want fair, good PvP, play FPS. PvP in MMOs is almost never challenging on both sides. Even if there's level/skill restrictions, unless there's also gear/item restrictions (which would be too hard to implement if there are plenty of items ingame), it's not challenging.
And if you really do like PvP, you like it for the challenge. You're not hiding on the other side of the world grinding so that you can gank newbies later. That's not PvP, that's teenage angst trying to escape.
Personally, I think full PK usually does not belong in MMORPGs. That being said, I'm not exactly a "carebear". I've done my fair share of PvP, but I only truly enjoyed it when it was for a PURPOSE. A purpose is not "stealing that newbie's only valuable item" or "advancing in the PvP ladder". A purpose should involve teamwork like, "getting the guild together to take over a city". But noone's getting that right, so I'd just prefer to have no PvP at all.
If I want to play teamwork, I'll play MMORPGs. If I want to PvP, I'll play FPS. If I want an actual storyline in a game, I'll play a single player RPG. That's what the genres do correctly, so that's how I play them.
But if you say that then there is no future for MMORPG's... People will stop playing them and play FPS and RPG's... But no more MMORPG's...
I'm curretly studying to be a game programmer. But with this comment my dreams of building MMORPG's are being destroyed... Instead of complaining try to come up with a solution... If not for yourself do it for the future of MMORPG's... I think PKing makes the game more realistic tho, but it f*cks up the gameplay for other gamers. So we have to find a balance... I like the thought of PvPing with your guild over a territory tho.
But PvP is and has been a part of MMORPG's and i doubt it wil go away... People like to fight other people even if there weaker... But mindless wandering of player is a sign of boredom and can only be solved by new things in a game... The only solution to that is to keep the game intresting and fun to play. So people dont get bored when there maxed lvl... I've seen it more then once: a player who kills newbies just because he is bored...
'Captain! We're surrounded!!'
'Excellent! Now we can attack in any direction!'
To be honest, I think one of the major problems with MMORPG development is that the programmers are allowed to contribute ideas to the gameplay. Programmers think binary logic, and they say "If progress equals player satisfaction, then endless progress equals endless satisfaction." And that's wrong. Programmers make fancy algebraeic functions that determine player strength, but again, that's wrong.
I'm not against levels, not at all, however I am definitely against player strength being tied proportionally to the player level. That's VERY wrong, and that's where PVP fails in most/all MMOGs. PVP lacks the human factor; and thus PVP is considered boring and dull by many players, because they can't outsmart others. It's all about who spends the most time training <stat>/<skill> to the highest level, and pots fastest. It's not about battle tactics, luck and human error. I don't think I've ever seen a MMOG where you can actually surprise your opponent in any way, or where a guy, who is like 10 levels lower can still win the fight, simply because he's the smarter one and knows how to move or how to aim. MMOGs are too automated, and because of that PVP will never work.
Like manday and vendris say, FPS' are the games that have fun PVPing, because of the human factor. You're the one in control. You're the one that decides who win, and if you want your chances to increase, you have to train yourself, not your character.
thats a fault of the gameplay itself. in an open sandbox game theres ALWAYS a way to kill the uber-geared player, be it only with sheer numbers (zerg ftw
).
1on1 and group-pvp are two totally different topics.