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Korean *ahem* games in general
DeletedAcct
Member Posts: 883
I for one am tired of the rubbish the Korean gaming industry tries to pass off as "exciting new mmos". All of their games are the same and although the lackluster development of the genre in their market region, catering to those who want to do everything with one hand (makes me wonder what the national pasttime is there) and not have to put any real thought processes into the game may be acceptable to them, I am tired of seeing it continually ported to the other regions of the world like it's the next big thing. They are tired, worn, point and click clones of each other. They are so simple a two year old with developing hand/eye coordination could play 'em. As long as we accept this crap as good gaming, which they do not provide in my opinion, they will keep pouring out the same game with a new name forever. As most of us are trying to kick Western mmos in the ass to start becoming more than what they currently are and start giving us some truly new and inspired games for the new generation of mmorpgs, why are we not trying to get that same message across to the Eastern gaming world also?
I would like to hear everyones opinion on the Korean game industry of the present. Love it or hate it, what's your opinion?
Comments
Asian or Western,
Personally I think all the devs dropped the ball about 4 or 5 years back by all of them cloning each other. No real inovation has happened yet. Still the same old level, raid endgame formula's on the way.
Personally I'm not only tired of the Asian one's lately but of all of them
More and more I find myself playing shooters (BF2) and combat Sims (Steel beast) and single player RPG's instead of logging in to grind on whatever MMO title.
They are horrible game's. While I was clicking to post this though I thought to myself, that at least they might sop up a little of the kind of people I dont like playing with. I don't subscribe to the idea that MMO's are not trying to be innovative myself, they just dont seem to have alot of room to grow IMO. Also playing shooter games for the most part.
But back on topic; I Don't think much of Asian MMO's & I dont see them having any real impact on westeren design.
How is the korean market worse then the western market? While the korean market is drowning in Lineage clones, We only bring out Everquest titles. Myself, I have always been a big fan of Korean mmorpg's. Anybody who played foreign mmorpg's that didn't get translated will tell you this:"You haven't seen anything yet". Its not like the non-grinding korean games aren't there. they just don't bring them here. there are a bunch of very intresting MMORPG's. such as the korean MMORPG Racing titles, or NCsoft's Snow Board title. Those are a lot of fun, but will never reach the western shore because it doesn't say "EVERQUEST"on the box.
Also, A lot of western people complain about korean mmorpg's. its sad that only so few people know HOW to play those korean mmorpg. They log in, play for a few weeks, only notice the grind and then complain about the grind and tell everybody how much it sucks, completely missing the point WHY they have to grind. Every Korean mmorpg has a certain event that the game is for a big part all about. In Lineage 2 its the Castle sieges, in RF Online its the chipwars, in Ragnarok Online its the War of Emperium, and in the upcmming Archlord its The Archlord quest and Castle sieges. In Korean mmorpg's, you have to be part of a guild. its that simple, guilds are very important in Korean mmorpg's. If you are the lone wolf UO or WoW player, then you can go back to the western games because Korean games aren't for you. in Korean mmorpg's, you work together with your clan (or even alliance) to reach big goals, you work together as one big team, get the members equipment, group together, raid together, PVP together. those are things that don't happen as much in Western mmorpg's as they do in Korean mmorpg's.
Western mmorpg's are more a theme park trip. you lvl from 1 to the cap, visit nice diffrent areas, go inside an instance now and then, and at the end you can do poorly done raids.
I don't understand why people don't get the feeling "Ok, what is the point?" when playing these western mmo's. when I grind or raid in Lineage 2, I know what I do it for. I do it for the castle siege next saturday, where I have to compete with hundreds of other people. or for the big raid with 199 other people next sunday (yes, 200 people. thats why korean mmorpg's have so little customization). I think everybody should download the Valakas final movie, when Valakas was first taken down on Lionna server. then compare it to the puny,small raids of WoW and EQ
Koreans understand this goal type gameplay. Korean gamers are known to be able to work together in big numbers really well. thats why Lineage 2 is so popular there. many western gamers just fail to see it.
But anyway, its not like the korean games with some western gameplay don't exist. Cabal online will still be a grind, but has a lot of western features. Archlord will have a LOT of western gameplay, while still having the korean key event. its just that nobody noticed them, everybody here is screaming for Age of Conan and Vanguard and Warhammer. nobody notices the korean mmorpg's. which is sad, as Aion will be the very first next generation mmorpg. a mix of Korean and Western developers.
Oh, I also see those people complaining about cash shops korean mmorpg's. ofcourse they are crap, they are free. at least the koreans at least do something for those who can't afford p2p mmorpg's, the western mmo market only throws out Runescape and Tibia, I rest my case.
Not a fan of the Asian games myself, or the fact they are spreading like wildfire and influencing western games.
Not only are we being bombarded with the aforementioned games, but the western developers are seeing the dollar signs (especially as most of these games have RL cash for item shops built-in). So much so we are now being treat to Western made Asian style games. See 'Dungeon Runners' if you want an example, a 'homegrown' point and click potion spamfest with WoW clone graphics.
Its very depressing for a player who wants a little more depth to their game.
bah.. etc
Tam
I generally agree with GL, it silly to single out Korean games because the entire genre is failing. It has nothing to do with Korean vs West (if that was the case, west lost a long time ago) It has to do with Inovation or sticking with whats safe. The Korean model works in Asia so naturally they are going to stick with it. The western model has NOT really found its groove yet. Its to busy copying EQ from years and years ago.
but actually this topic should be titled
"MMORPG's *ahem* in general"
Western devs aren't exactly pumping out quality products either.
MMO's could and should be an exploding new frontier but instead our frontiersmen are afraid to go out into the wild.
Games like NWN2 are going to set a new standard for those types of games (single and multiplayer) as Obilvion set a new bar for single player games, as BF2 set a new standard for shooters.....while MMO's are going to be about the same as it ever was.
Look at Vanguard. The Devs even title themselves as EQ the way it should have been or something like that. Come'on, we've been there, done that. Time for something new already.
All MMORPG's are the same. You start as X,grind through Y,end up in Z,then Z v2 and other Z's come out to lengthen it. The only difference is if Y is enjoyable or not. And nowadays more P is needed to encourage player vs player longevity. And that is a matter of personal choice.
Me; I thought WOW provided the best ever cover-up for 60 levels of Y. There's always a Y quest to do,or a Y instance to visit,or some minor P. But at Z I got tired of the lack of P outside of BG's,and thus quit.
Korean MMOs usually have a lot of interesting monsters in Y; I noticed in WOW that the monster types gradually became clones of monsters (blobs,humans,dwarves,elementals.....) earlier on. I find in Korean MMO's there's usually more variety; giant mushrooms, banana-throwing monkeys, walking grape bunches, wooden scarecrow things, etc. Having never really hit high levels on any Korean MMO,they may start re-using monsters from earlier more often,but I've seen no evidence of it so far.
Some people like the relentless Y in MMORPG's; it's a simple task which maybe we enjoy in small doses,and in a way the PvE item collection is a form of P; Oh look I have a RARE SWORD!!! (oh wow,can I have please!!!!) Now others are envious, until you find the level 100 power-leveller.
Problem with most MMO's (including Korean ones) imo? Lack of meaningful,purposeful,game-changing P. It seems like all MMO companies decided to use generic P templates and focus more on PvE. Silkroad is perhaps an exception with its triangular conflict system focus,or Shadowbane with its P-oriented exp grind. Other than that,its usually L2 P system clones or just random PK'ing with loot drops. (the latter is better but not enough content....players would have more to work with however)
Korean MMO's are at least seemingly trying to add minor new aspects to the PvE,and maybe even the P in their continuous release of MMOs. But it's gonna take a huge step from either the Korean or Western market to produce another open-ended fantastic P-oriented MMORPG like Ultima Online pre-Trammel claimed to be in its time. Because,although it sounded like P hell,I'd reckon it also sounded like MMO heaven once you got used to it.
I'd probably hate it for a few weeks though,because I've been carebeared by the P in other games.
Games like NWN2 are going to set a new standard for those types of games
The problem is every hyped game is going to set a new standard for how games should be. Once they get closer to launch and people know more about them they all seem to be crap.
At one time RFO was the most hyped game on this site. People said the game play was awesome.... the truth is they watched the cool anime trailer that has some really neat fighting in it and gave the game a 10. The clip didn't even show the game graphics it was just a neat cartoon.
If people really want to change the way the market works they have to stop buying the most hyped games and really look at what they're going to buy. There's enough people in the MMO market that games no longer have to spend years making back the dev cost They can put out crap as long as they hype the game enough they'll get most of their money back from the people who only last 1 month then move on.
In other words...the devs are counting on you/us to be the good little sheep North Americas consumers always are and buy what's popular rather then what's good and what works. Our "just give it a try for a month it's only $50 " is what's letting the garbage they've been putting out continue.
it's funny to think that korean MMORPG players could be thinking the exact same thing about western MMORPGs. It's your taste for games...
Games like NWN2 are going to set a new standard for those types of games
The problem is every hyped game is going to set a new standard for how games should be. Once they get closer to launch and people know more about them they all seem to be crap.
At one time RFO was the most hyped game on this site. People said the game play was awesome.... the truth is they watched the cool anime trailer that has some really neat fighting in it and gave the game a 10. The clip didn't even show the game graphics it was just a neat cartoon.
If people really want to change the way the market works they have to stop buying the most hyped games and really look at what they're going to buy. There's enough people in the MMO market that games no longer have to spend years making back the dev cost They can put out crap as long as they hype the game enough they'll get most of their money back from the people who only last 1 month then move on.
In other words...the devs are counting on you/us to be the good little sheep North Americas consumers always are and buy what's popular rather then what's good and what works. Our "just give it a try for a month it's only $50 " is what's letting the garbage they've been putting out continue.
Normally I would agree with you on your statesments about hype.
However in this case there are a few differences. Keep in mind is that like most things in life, past performance is usually a very good gage of future
Now play my silly game.
Name the past 3 Bioware products that where garbage.
Name the most recent 3 MMO releases that where NOT garbage. (any maker)
The odds are clearly in favor of NWN2 being just as much a success as NWN. A game who's independent community is still strong and rivals alot MMO populations in size. NWN2 will more then likey also have the high quality of any other game made by Bioware. The same can not be said for comparible MMO companies like Turbine who crank out failure after failure.
Here is a sample
http://nwvault.ign.com/
So forgive me on my single "hype" statement I have ever made about an up and coming game but all things being equal, it is very unlikely it will fail.
MMO designers have failed not the PC game industry. Western PC game designers are unparalled in the world.
it does. There are many more "hardcore" gamers in korea than any other place in the world. Some of these guys play more than 16 hours of games per day, and as a result, they have more time to grind also.
I have to agree with the OP on a couple of points:
(a) Companies that are publishing Asian games for Western markets need to go ahead and admit that they are doing a localized re-release of an Asian game (often understated or omitted entirely from their websites), so that people who don't like that style of game can steer clear. If they are going to try to sell it as an "exciting new game," they just need to make that one little bit of information a little more clear for people who know enough to know they don't want to point-click-and-grind.
(b) Companies could stand to do something a little different with their games. Period.
But... I really don't care if the Eastern gaming world ever decides that they want a new game. If someone over there makes something that is really new and exciting and people flock to it, more power to them, but if they are getting adequate subscriber numbers from the same old game, then it would appear that their target market has spoken.
I've discovered, much to my horror, that I don't really mind Asian style games. In fact, I kind of like them. I don't like them as well as I like Western style games, but I don't think of the two things as being of the same kind of game at all. I play something like EQ, EQ2, or WoW when I want to be socially involved and do quests, etc. It's a hobby. I play whatever free Asian game I happen to be grooving on this week when I just want to decompress, NOT think, and kill me some monsters. And I kind of like the standardized UI when I am trying to NOT think.
YMMV.
...
This is where I draw the line: __________________.
Are there alot of bad korean/asian games? Hell yeah.
Are there alot of more bad korean/asian games, then western ones? Subjective. IMHO the answer is no.
Are there alot of korean/asian games that should be brought oversea's? Hell yeah.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
My problem with GameLoading's ideal is that, if the point is to cooperate with large groups for some kind of large battle or competition... Why the hell are they selling all that boring PVE grind with the game I'm supposed to be playing? Well, other than cynnical content stretching.
---
I think there are two big things a lot of people here tend to forget in regards with MMO's in general:
1) Did you buy EQ, UO, and the subsequent clones.
If you told game companies with your wallets that you love what they're doing, they're going to keep doing it.
2) Not everyone has been in the market 8-9 years.
If you enjoyed EQ and/or a clone there of, is it suprising that people who just went out and got their first MMOs are enjoying now exactly what you did then?
Well if you enjoy the pay off enough, thats fine. Most of the time when a game falls into grinding I feel like a sucker because I don't enjoy the rewards for advancing nearly as much as I hated the process of grinding. And, yes, I would require a substantial pay off. Getting the game to call m_nPlayerLevel++; or m_nSkillLevel++; isn't enough for me.
In the case of the reward being combat, I don't go for that either. If there is something at stake and I lose, I'm screwed enjoyment wise. If I win, I've screwed someone else. If there isn't anything, I should've gone and played an FPS.
EDIT: Has anyone else noticed how much the forum software here bites for handling quotes? Every time I edit this post I have to reinsert the quote and bold tags.
So what your telling me is that if your not an ass then you don't feel connected with a game. Hell there are tons of games to be an ASS in you can simply sit in town and talk like your doing now.
Actually I got a Korean Game that is right up your ally. Navy Field. The only way to make it somewhere on that game is to prey on low levels.
I agree with GL here. You do look just about like everybody else in them but it's the exact same way on Western MMO's, especially at the final tier. The difference is because they don't try to fake it from the start they can do more with their end game. They instead offer extra customization through different skill, stat and subclass builds, or even hero classes. There's more variation with monsters and zones as well. The only things missing are quests but I guess it is hard to see the point of wasting resources on the extra 800 NPCs and dialogue to tell players to go kill some things they were going to be killing anyways. The important armor/class quests are still in there at least.
Even I can't take the grind of there though. I've got no interest in dedicating 2 years of my life to leveling up the same character over and over again. I just wish the companies liscensing and localizing those games would at least try to adjust for the audience they are selling. They're creating these games to sell in places where Governments are being forced to regulate peoples playtime and even cheap games are going to pick up a million subscribers. A straight translation is never going to pick up any real popularity in the west without some changes. That or a happy medium where you're not maxxed and bored in a month but not sitting at level 10/225 in the same time.
Korean games are rubbish, no doubt about that. They just seem to have a very different idea of what's fun, and no concept of originality.
I hate the complaints about Korean games, im actually a big fan of Korean games and think they have alot more to them than western market games with there over hyped quests that are drawn out and boring. Most Korean titles you can get in grind away, improve your char, have great competition and then eventually get to enjoy the main core of the game (castle siege or w/e) and this is a great system imo.
Now Western games are just the same apart from they have a lower grind to help out all the whiners who cant spend more than 20 mins at leveling up 1 level, apart from that all they have is usually more quests and they are just kill tasks. Atleast Korean games have alot of end game content that you work hard at and feel great for getting to be a part of, with a strong guild, a great community most Korean games destroy western games imo, what is there to do at the end of the very short grind that western games have, oh yeah, raid until the day you die, with the odd bit of watered down shite PvP for the carebears. Atleast Korean mmorpgs tend to have brutal PvP to look forward to and PvP that has a point.
Some people just have there head wedged so far up there arses that they cant see anything other than there own side of things, pull your heads out slightly and make a list of the differences between Korean games and Western games, infact ill do one for you.
Korean games:
Long grind, which keeps you occupied and eventually pays off to get you to some great content.
Small amount of quests, usually kill tasks.
Stylized graphics that are in most cases very attractive and look different than the normal crap we see.
Very creative in most cases and offer a totally different appearence, unlike western mmos that lack originality and alot of the things in them look the same. Korean games tend to have awesome weapons, armours, landscapes. Where as Western games tend to have more boring looking items, that actually look like old school weps and armours that knights really used to wear. Where the hell si the fun in that.
True fantasy styles. In Korean games you can have a sword that looks like it weighs 200 tons and armour that you couldnt actually move in, its a great escape from reality and it looks awesome. Somthing else to play for.
Western games:
Less grind. Still grindy but not as much to help out the guys who cant hack a grind, there is no problem with that, just dont come and criticise Korean grinds when some of us do enjoy them.
Thousands of quests. Yes lots of quests, i hate having to spend ages doing lots of repetetive quests. Give me a few decent kill tasks that i can do as i grind any day. None of this help farmer garfunkle find his shaver from x location, run for 3 hours to that location, head back to farmer garfunkle and shave his ass crack with newly found shaver and receive half the exp needed for your level. Bollocks.
Boring styles, they always go for to much realism and not enough fantasy fiction. I want to escape reality when im playing a game, not be in an alternate one.
Crap and boring end game content usually consisting of repetetive raids just for 1 part of your armour set.
Instancing, the new fad for alot of Western games, sure some Korean games have it to, but it seems to be mainly western.
Rubbish communities. In most cases the communities suck and expect everything to be handed to them, also nerfing and balancing, unbalancing and rebalancing occurs more in western games (EQ2). Korean mmo communites in most cases feel much closer as the players are all working hard to get to somthing.
Then we can go on about crafting etc and how the western market have done a better job of that becuase its more in depth, basically the crafting gives you somthing to do after you have found out how lacking the game is by end game and in most cases the crafting is boring apart from for those, special people who enjoy doing it alot.
Of course, this is all jsut my opinion, but i most definatly do think some of you need to open your eyes and open your minds a hell of alot more.
Garrik
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