To Torak: I agree. Dynamic encounters and, most importantly, encounters with a purpose (or are more coincidental to a goal rather than the goal) might go a long way to keeping a game interesting.
Originally posted by Panzeh My problem with the traditional MMO is that people say "yeah the grind sucks but the endgame rocks"
If the endgame rocks, then why should people have to work to go and play the endgame? So you can be a part of the elite club of people who actually have fun with the MMO? I guess i don't think being able to have fun with a game should be an accomplishment in and of itself..
I would like to see games that don't end and don't hold the 'endgame' carrot in front of you so that you trudge through a boring as hell opening and midgame..
What is your issue with everyone being competitive on PvP from day 1?
Most people I have communicated with seem to have a really weird mentality when it comes to grind in MMOs. That is, "I had to work for it, therefore you should have to also." And they think this should apply even to different games! My FFXI friend scoffs at GW because I can create a new character with a maxed out weapon and all of the skills I need and be competitive instantly. He scoffs because I didn't "earn" any of it. Which isn't entirely true, because if I want to try my own builds I do have to earn the skills, but at least I only have to do so once and not for every character I try out.
And I agree entirely with the opening and midgame comments. Games should be fun at level 1.
Originally posted by Mylon Most people I have communicated with seem to have a really weird mentality when it comes to grind in MMOs. That is, "I had to work for it, therefore you should have to also." And they think this should apply even to different games! My FFXI friend scoffs at GW because I can create a new character with a maxed out weapon and all of the skills I need and be competitive instantly. He scoffs because I didn't "earn" any of it. Which isn't entirely true, because if I want to try my own builds I do have to earn the skills, but at least I only have to do so once and not for every character I try out.
What that illustrates is that you are not an "Achiever" type of gamer. "Earning" one's way in the world is usually what makes games fun for the "Achiever" type of gamer.
You seem to have a hard time grasping that concept. People are different from you. Your view of fun is entirely your own, and you'll find that other people likely share many if not most of your views. But difference in opinion is not a matter of right and wrong.
Learn to appreciate what others enjoy and you might even enliven your own experience.
I do like achieving goals though. The difference in the type of goals I like to achieve is that I only need to achieve them once or twice. Having to prove myself by doing it 200 times (as in bashing monsters in most MMOs) is a little excessive.
If it takes me 2 hours to crawl through that dungeon fraught with danger to get the legendary artifact, I can understand that. If I have to crawl through the same dungeon 50 times because I'm the 10th person in line in the group to want that artifact and it's not always there, that's a big difference.
What that illustrates is that you are not an "Achiever" type of gamer. "Earning" one's way in the world is usually what makes games fun for the "Achiever" type of gamer.
You seem to have a hard time grasping that concept. People are different from you. Your view of fun is entirely your own, and you'll find that other people likely share many if not most of your views. But difference in opinion is not a matter of right and wrong.
Learn to appreciate what others enjoy and you might even enliven your own experience.
Hey ianubisi, there use to be a website that gave the test for the Achiever, explorer, sociolizer, killer rating,
Do you have it anywhere? I took it a long time ago but could even tell what my ratings where.
Andreasen's "Bartle Test" has been down for several weeks now, but the cumulative results are still viewable.
As for the OP, yes. Agreed.
Developing a character can be fun... in a single-player game. In a multiplayer game, the classes-with-levels design causes multiple pathologies:
being unable to play with higher-level friends
spending weeks levelling up before getting to the "good stuff"
powerlevellers laying waste to all spawns
people buying pre-levelled characters that they don't know how to play
This is why I'd like to see more MMORPGs designed to use the approach that has worked for over 30 years in tabletop RPGs: When you're done with the character creation process, you're done -- you've got everything you need to go play the game.
In no way does this mean that there's nothing new to explore or discover or do, or that all challenges must be of equal difficulty. If the game world is sufficiently large, there'll always be someplace new to see and something new to do. And there can easily be quests and situations that require specific skills or multiple players (i.e., groups) to successfully complete.
If some MMORPGs want to continue to offer classes with levels that promote grinding and the other ills listed above, OK. No problem; those gamers who enjoy that should be able to find games that offer it.
But those of us for whom the grind is painful should have MMORPGs that take a different approach. Where are those games?
I didn't even read all the responses because i think you are so acurate in what you are claiming that noone should even try to disagree with you.
One of the things i enjoyed the most from CoX was the posibility to start with a char that actually looks like you want. Of course i still think you should start with even more powers but the grind to 10 was so fast that getting your first powers was actually enyoable. For some reason MMOs are developed as time sinks, why? who knows but its true... I have spent the last 3 days playing Call of duty just because i can jump to the action from the begining and not wait 60 boring levels... i only wish i could play a game like this online
have spent the last 3 days playing Call of duty just because i can jump to the action from the begining and not wait 60 boring levels... i only wish i could play a game like this online
Um.... I may be mistaken, but doesn't Call of Duty have an online multiplayer mode? I know that the PC and XBox versions do. Not so sure about the PS2 version though.
I don't know about this, on the one half if a game is fun enough it can hide that grind. On the otherhand, is forcing any sort of advancement that isn't immediately attainable a 'grind' by desire? I mean one of the appeals of mmorpgs is levelling up and gaining those new abilities but being purposely put on a treadmill for them. Perhaps if the reward of those abilities was not always reserved for the end of the level then it would make it less of a grind.
Originally posted by Gameloading But without some kind of "work", there is also no satisfaction from completing goals.
Ok.
Listen up, all of you dweebs who think that repetive actions constitute challenge.
Ninja Gaiden on Hard mode is one of the most difficult games you will ever play in your life. It takes a LOT of time invested, skill aquired and experience gained in order to master it.
Want to know what the difference between Ninja Gaiden and <Insert crappy MMo here> is?
Wait for it....
NINJA GAIDEN IS FUN.
I would rather sniff paint fumes than play your stupid, pathetic, mindless, BORING ASS level grind in order to get to the fun part.
Freaking newbs think that grinding is a challenge.
----------------------------- Listen Asmodeeus, seven years ago, Ultima Online didn't even have those pathetic "quests" that you refer to or those "professions" of ninja, samurai, necromancer, and paladin. Nor did it have any of the neon crap, or bug mounts. It didn't even have any "combat moves." You turned on attack and jousted with simplistic swings. It was a better game then. if you can't guess why then just uninstall the thing and move along. - Crabby
I agree alot on the part games shouldn't be fun till later on.However i kinda find the opposite than you do,as i find most games alot more fun at early levels and extremely boring later on.
I do agree with having to earn ,things but also agree it shouldn't be about time only.Since you used the FFXI example and i am very knowledgeable with that game ,i will continue.That game would be great for you because you have friends who you could all hang out together and lose the worse part of the game wich is partying.Assuming you and your friends are willing to stick together and can play on the same time frame.
Alot of stuff in that game is earned and takes alot of time,but it's not the time that determines your EARNING" its just that there is so much to do in earning it.You enter a zone on a long haul to earn some elite piece of equipment,however since your there it only makes sense to also get your friends the same gear for there class/job.Alot of these quests require a very good team that can pull off renkai i think it is called.You also need players that can THINK and are versatile as the battles can be extremely hard and can change in a blink for the worse.Creatures in this game can STONE players or even kill the whole team with one spell,so there is alot of skill going into the battles.You can't just go in all hacking and nuking your best spells,and expect to win,matter of fact you will 90% of the time lose the battle,making for alot of time to restart the mission/quest.
This is the way you EARN things in FFXi by knowledge skill/versatility and not just because you put in so many hours of playtime.Now on a sidenote...... i will totally agree that the level cap idea is stupid and is pretty much nothing more than a time sink.You don't really earn anything is just kill kill kill again until you get the drops,and usually it's high levels players helping out meaning its even more just a timesink with no skills needed or used.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Comments
And I agree entirely with the opening and midgame comments. Games should be fun at level 1.
What that illustrates is that you are not an "Achiever" type of gamer. "Earning" one's way in the world is usually what makes games fun for the "Achiever" type of gamer.
You seem to have a hard time grasping that concept. People are different from you. Your view of fun is entirely your own, and you'll find that other people likely share many if not most of your views. But difference in opinion is not a matter of right and wrong.
Learn to appreciate what others enjoy and you might even enliven your own experience.
If it takes me 2 hours to crawl through that dungeon fraught with danger to get the legendary artifact, I can understand that. If I have to crawl through the same dungeon 50 times because I'm the 10th person in line in the group to want that artifact and it's not always there, that's a big difference.
What that illustrates is that you are not an "Achiever" type of gamer. "Earning" one's way in the world is usually what makes games fun for the "Achiever" type of gamer.
You seem to have a hard time grasping that concept. People are different from you. Your view of fun is entirely your own, and you'll find that other people likely share many if not most of your views. But difference in opinion is not a matter of right and wrong.
Learn to appreciate what others enjoy and you might even enliven your own experience.
Hey ianubisi, there use to be a website that gave the test for the Achiever, explorer, sociolizer, killer rating,
Do you have it anywhere? I took it a long time ago but could even tell what my ratings where.
Andreasen's "Bartle Test" has been down for several weeks now, but the cumulative results are still viewable.
As for the OP, yes. Agreed.
Developing a character can be fun... in a single-player game. In a multiplayer game, the classes-with-levels design causes multiple pathologies:
This is why I'd like to see more MMORPGs designed to use the approach that has worked for over 30 years in tabletop RPGs: When you're done with the character creation process, you're done -- you've got everything you need to go play the game.
In no way does this mean that there's nothing new to explore or discover or do, or that all challenges must be of equal difficulty. If the game world is sufficiently large, there'll always be someplace new to see and something new to do. And there can easily be quests and situations that require specific skills or multiple players (i.e., groups) to successfully complete.
If some MMORPGs want to continue to offer classes with levels that promote grinding and the other ills listed above, OK. No problem; those gamers who enjoy that should be able to find games that offer it.
But those of us for whom the grind is painful should have MMORPGs that take a different approach. Where are those games?
--Flatfingers
I didn't even read all the responses because i think you are so acurate in what you are claiming that noone should even try to disagree with you.
One of the things i enjoyed the most from CoX was the posibility to start with a char that actually looks like you want. Of course i still think you should start with even more powers but the grind to 10 was so fast that getting your first powers was actually enyoable.
For some reason MMOs are developed as time sinks, why? who knows but its true...
I have spent the last 3 days playing Call of duty just because i can jump to the action from the begining and not wait 60 boring levels... i only wish i could play a game like this online
bluesession wrote:
have spent the last 3 days playing Call of duty just because i can jump to the action from the begining and not wait 60 boring levels... i only wish i could play a game like this online
Um.... I may be mistaken, but doesn't Call of Duty have an online multiplayer mode? I know that the PC and XBox versions do. Not so sure about the PS2 version though.
I don't know about this, on the one half if a game is fun enough it can hide that grind. On the otherhand, is forcing any sort of advancement that isn't immediately attainable a 'grind' by desire? I mean one of the appeals of mmorpgs is levelling up and gaining those new abilities but being purposely put on a treadmill for them. Perhaps if the reward of those abilities was not always reserved for the end of the level then it would make it less of a grind.
Listen up, all of you dweebs who think that repetive actions constitute challenge.
Ninja Gaiden on Hard mode is one of the most difficult games you will ever play in your life. It takes a LOT of time invested, skill aquired and experience gained in order to master it.
Want to know what the difference between Ninja Gaiden and <Insert crappy MMo here> is?
Wait for it....
NINJA GAIDEN IS FUN.
I would rather sniff paint fumes than play your stupid, pathetic, mindless, BORING ASS level grind in order to get to the fun part.
Freaking newbs think that grinding is a challenge.
-----------------------------
Listen Asmodeeus, seven years ago, Ultima Online didn't even have those pathetic "quests" that you refer to or those "professions" of ninja, samurai, necromancer, and paladin. Nor did it have any of the neon crap, or bug mounts. It didn't even have any "combat moves." You turned on attack and jousted with simplistic swings. It was a better game then. if you can't guess why then just uninstall the thing and move along. - Crabby
I agree alot on the part games shouldn't be fun till later on.However i kinda find the opposite than you do,as i find most games alot more fun at early levels and extremely boring later on.
I do agree with having to earn ,things but also agree it shouldn't be about time only.Since you used the FFXI example and i am very knowledgeable with that game ,i will continue.That game would be great for you because you have friends who you could all hang out together and lose the worse part of the game wich is partying.Assuming you and your friends are willing to stick together and can play on the same time frame.
Alot of stuff in that game is earned and takes alot of time,but it's not the time that determines your EARNING" its just that there is so much to do in earning it.You enter a zone on a long haul to earn some elite piece of equipment,however since your there it only makes sense to also get your friends the same gear for there class/job.Alot of these quests require a very good team that can pull off renkai i think it is called.You also need players that can THINK and are versatile as the battles can be extremely hard and can change in a blink for the worse.Creatures in this game can STONE players or even kill the whole team with one spell,so there is alot of skill going into the battles.You can't just go in all hacking and nuking your best spells,and expect to win,matter of fact you will 90% of the time lose the battle,making for alot of time to restart the mission/quest.
This is the way you EARN things in FFXi by knowledge skill/versatility and not just because you put in so many hours of playtime.Now on a sidenote...... i will totally agree that the level cap idea is stupid and is pretty much nothing more than a time sink.You don't really earn anything is just kill kill kill again until you get the drops,and usually it's high levels players helping out meaning its even more just a timesink with no skills needed or used.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.