In D&D, clerics were generally seen as the healing batteries. In quite a few MMORPGs, many people took the opinion that no one wants to play or even invite a support class unless it's necessary. That is, if you can bring all damage and survive well, why bother with a support character? To answer these concerns, healers are generally made to be indespensible. (read, unbalanced)
As an interesting note, think, "What class(es) absolutely must be in a party?" Also, "What do you never see the monsters use/do?" The answer to the first, for most MMOs, is tank and healer. Tanks because they use skills rich in artificial stupidity "I use this skill to make the mob dumber and attack the worst possible target", and healers because they make people last infinitely longer than they would otherwise. That is, take a team of 5 damage dealers. Fine. Now replace one with a tank. Suddeny the effectiveness of the group increases by what? 3x? Now add a healer. Suddenly the effectiveness of the group increases by a further 5x! That's what I call overpowered.
Now consider the second question from above. What do monsters never do? Or at least very rarely. I've never seen a game where they use aggro skills on players. Also, I very rarely see monsters toss out healing. I see it occasionally in Guild Wars, and these groups are hated incredibly (One mission involves killing 4 bosses arranged in a "circle", which the players can start and travel in any direction they choose. They always start from the same point and go the same direction such that they fight the healer boss last! That's a nod to how powerful the healers are.) I've even seen it in Final Fantasy XI, but these mobs are singular, fighting against a whole party, and can easily get interrupted with 4 people pounding on them.
For a game where players are expected to be engaged in important battles for minutes at a time, I would much rather see players have a larger health pool and take many hits to die, while healers only heal a portion of that damage and slow the player's eventual death rather than bringing them back from the brink over and over. For WoW as an example, this would mean increasing HP by 10-20x and decreasing healing to about 1/2 or more.
People are only copying the old formulas over and over and not trying anything new. We need more games that don't have a _required_ or overpowered healer support role.
Well if you like to heal then go to this game flyff, it has a class that can heal. I know i have one and i never get blamed, which that maybe cause i pwn at healing http://flyff.gpotato.com/game_info/assist.php
I play guild Wars, but it too has a shortage of monks (the general healing class, though there are now ritualists, which can use restoration to heal..).
It seems to have the same issues.. but I enjoy monking.
It's a strange yet peaeful kidn of power monks have.
There is a farming-run called a Tombs-run, notorious fro dropping green weapons with fixed stats.
The most common 8-person group build for these runs includes only 1 healer, which goes against what most groups need of that size in the rest of the game.
I used to monk tombs-groups a lot, and even thoguh I've been both complimented for my good skills, anytime 2 groups were pulled instead of 1, or anythign of that nature, someone would have a tendency to blame me- the monk.
So, i understand the problem.
I also understand that even that gropu build could do without its monk.
every class has some sort of self heal, and there shouldnt be a reason that a group cant do a run without a monk when they have alreayd ascustomed themselves to having one when 2 or 3 generally fit the bill for parts that size.
There are however a few missions where monks are needed. But.. I guess that goes for the other classes to.
Ex: you need casters for the mission Thunderhead Keep, or you will be unable to deal enough damage to kill some of the 'bosses'.
Monk may be the shortest of demand, but every class IS needed, somehow..
I'd love to see mmorpg developers move away from in-combat healing. A healing skill is great. Even a healing class is ok if you must have classes. But leave the healing for AFTER combat.
Originally posted by joereed1 After a bad experience in WOW with my priest character getting generally abused and blamed (unfairly i thought) when we wiped in an instance. I started to think, wouldn't it make more sense not to have combat healing at all? The idea of being able to heal someone whilst they are mid battle seems pretty stupid. You could have healing when not in combat but not during. What do people think because i think because i think priests and other healers get alot of abuse for not doing their job when it is completely unjustified.
I wont worry about it really. You will always experience a bad group of players who dont know what they are doing. Like the tank goes off and pulls five uper mobs then dies and blames you for not healing him. Ive been in really good groups and really bad ones with a few morons who just spoil the game. They think they are all l33t and think they are better anyone else, whether they are a tank or wizard. In a really good group you wont get anyone who will over pull anything. The good groups are the people who know what they are doing and play it safe.
Just like any other class you can get good healers and bad ones. Ive seen them all too.
Believe me Ive got blamed alot while I was playing a shadowknight on eq2. The worst class in the game, with the worst taunts, aggro spells, in all tanks. A wizard would nuke too much then I lost the aggro, but if people we to not to use too much dps too fast then I could do pretty well. Here I am clicking all the right buttons over and over just to keep aggro and yet I still lose it. Its not my fault I lose aggro because of my poor class.
Have played: CoH, DDO EQ2, FFXI, L2, HZ, SoR, and WW2 online
The only other way I have seen healing dealt otherwise was in a game called Gemstone, which is my by simutronics who is also making Hero's Journey. Clerics didn't heal, they were able to raise the dead and were able to annhilate undead/or the living, based on there faith.
The "healers" in the game were called empaths. Yes there were hitpoints in the game, but, if you had 200 that means you were most likely a giantman and that was alot. When a creature hit you, it'd leave behind a wound. Minor wounds such as scratched on your back, to major wounds like your arm being completely ripped open and gushing blood (you'd lose hit points every tick unless you bandaged it, or went and saw an empath). The empath would then take your wound, and cast a spell to heal himself/herself. They would also replenish your blood (hit points) if needed.
Now, this altered healing directly resulted from the combat. One shot to the head if they rolled correctly against your defense, and you were not wearing armor could cause a broken neck and kill you. You could ambush the monsters legs and chop them off, thus, grounding them and having an easier time of killing them. I know that the development team from Hero's Journey didn't look at clerics as "healers" for HJ, but, I am not positive if they have the "healers" for the game that just do your hit points, or, if they're going with the empath approach.
Originally posted by Mylon In D&D, clerics were generally seen as the healing batteries. In quite a few MMORPGs, many people took the opinion that no one wants to play or even invite a support class unless it's necessary. That is, if you can bring all damage and survive well, why bother with a support character? To answer these concerns, healers are generally made to be indespensible. (read, unbalanced)
Old school DND clerics worn heavy armor and could fight very well with their to-hit chart being just below fighters and hit die better than mages and theives. They were not just healing batteries unless the group decided to forgo their second best fighter type.
Comments
As an interesting note, think, "What class(es) absolutely must be in a party?" Also, "What do you never see the monsters use/do?" The answer to the first, for most MMOs, is tank and healer. Tanks because they use skills rich in artificial stupidity "I use this skill to make the mob dumber and attack the worst possible target", and healers because they make people last infinitely longer than they would otherwise. That is, take a team of 5 damage dealers. Fine. Now replace one with a tank. Suddeny the effectiveness of the group increases by what? 3x? Now add a healer. Suddenly the effectiveness of the group increases by a further 5x! That's what I call overpowered.
Now consider the second question from above. What do monsters never do? Or at least very rarely. I've never seen a game where they use aggro skills on players. Also, I very rarely see monsters toss out healing. I see it occasionally in Guild Wars, and these groups are hated incredibly (One mission involves killing 4 bosses arranged in a "circle", which the players can start and travel in any direction they choose. They always start from the same point and go the same direction such that they fight the healer boss last! That's a nod to how powerful the healers are.) I've even seen it in Final Fantasy XI, but these mobs are singular, fighting against a whole party, and can easily get interrupted with 4 people pounding on them.
For a game where players are expected to be engaged in important battles for minutes at a time, I would much rather see players have a larger health pool and take many hits to die, while healers only heal a portion of that damage and slow the player's eventual death rather than bringing them back from the brink over and over. For WoW as an example, this would mean increasing HP by 10-20x and decreasing healing to about 1/2 or more.
People are only copying the old formulas over and over and not trying anything new. We need more games that don't have a _required_ or overpowered healer support role.
I'd love to see mmorpg developers move away from in-combat healing. A healing skill is great. Even a healing class is ok if you must have classes. But leave the healing for AFTER combat.
I wont worry about it really. You will always experience a bad group of players who dont know what they are doing. Like the tank goes off and pulls five uper mobs then dies and blames you for not healing him. Ive been in really good groups and really bad ones with a few morons who just spoil the game. They think they are all l33t and think they are better anyone else, whether they are a tank or wizard. In a really good group you wont get anyone who will over pull anything. The good groups are the people who know what they are doing and play it safe.
Just like any other class you can get good healers and bad ones. Ive seen them all too.
Believe me Ive got blamed alot while I was playing a shadowknight on eq2. The worst class in the game, with the worst taunts, aggro spells, in all tanks. A wizard would nuke too much then I lost the aggro, but if people we to not to use too much dps too fast then I could do pretty well. Here I am clicking all the right buttons over and over just to keep aggro and yet I still lose it. Its not my fault I lose aggro because of my poor class.
Have played: CoH, DDO EQ2, FFXI, L2, HZ, SoR, and WW2 online
The only other way I have seen healing dealt otherwise was in a game called Gemstone, which is my by simutronics who is also making Hero's Journey. Clerics didn't heal, they were able to raise the dead and were able to annhilate undead/or the living, based on there faith.
The "healers" in the game were called empaths. Yes there were hitpoints in the game, but, if you had 200 that means you were most likely a giantman and that was alot. When a creature hit you, it'd leave behind a wound. Minor wounds such as scratched on your back, to major wounds like your arm being completely ripped open and gushing blood (you'd lose hit points every tick unless you bandaged it, or went and saw an empath). The empath would then take your wound, and cast a spell to heal himself/herself. They would also replenish your blood (hit points) if needed.
Now, this altered healing directly resulted from the combat. One shot to the head if they rolled correctly against your defense, and you were not wearing armor could cause a broken neck and kill you. You could ambush the monsters legs and chop them off, thus, grounding them and having an easier time of killing them. I know that the development team from Hero's Journey didn't look at clerics as "healers" for HJ, but, I am not positive if they have the "healers" for the game that just do your hit points, or, if they're going with the empath approach.
Old school DND clerics worn heavy armor and could fight very well with their to-hit chart being just below fighters and hit die better than mages and theives. They were not just healing batteries unless the group decided to forgo their second best fighter type.