Raiding is a horrible idea that should have never been implemented in any game past EQ. I will never understand how sitting in a place fighting 1 mob for 15 minutes, which took you 1 or more hours to prepare for is fun. Its lame, boring, and skillless.
Originally posted by brostyn Raiding is a horrible idea that should have never been implemented in any game past EQ. I will never understand how sitting in a place fighting 1 mob for 15 minutes, which took you 1 or more hours to prepare for is fun. Its lame, boring, and skillless.
I dunno man...it really depends on who you play with. I always enjoyed being able to chat with 40 of my friends at once and struggling with them to overcome something for the first time.
The first few times you kill a raid boss with your guild, there's pats on the back all around. Teamwork +++ And you get a big grin on your face, and you /w your friends in other guilds and you're like "OMFG!!! We just killed [Raid Boss]!!!11!!!1!!"
But then, like I said...its about who you raid with. I've been in guilds with HORRIBLE raids where people are yelling at one another and they aren't in it for the group effort...and then I've been in guilds where it was a 4 hour comedy show and I was laughing and having a great time the entire time, plus I got some phat lewtz.
Originally posted by brostyn Raiding is a horrible idea that should have never been implemented in any game past EQ. I will never understand how sitting in a place fighting 1 mob for 15 minutes, which took you 1 or more hours to prepare for is fun. Its lame, boring, and skillless.
i agree that eq was defiantly as you describe but (i know i might get some heat for this lol) there are ways to make it challenging, less tedious, and take less time to prepare for like wow's raiding for example.
in eq most raids (the ones i went on at least) were just huge zergs that took little skill, just a whole lot of people, and it took forever to get everyone buffed up and ready especially after a wipe.
in wow you can wipe then be ready to go in minutes, also there are some pretty kool ways of killing the bosses and if you don't use certain strategies then you will defiantly wipe.
now don't get me wrong, i am not saying wow is the be all end all of raiding but i think blizzard had some good ideas when it comes to raiding, the main problem is i think it is a bit to easy...but thats just my personal opinion.
Originally posted by brostyn Raiding is a horrible idea that should have never been implemented in any game past EQ. I will never understand how sitting in a place fighting 1 mob for 15 minutes, which took you 1 or more hours to prepare for is fun. Its lame, boring, and skillless.
i agree that eq was defiantly as you describe but (i know i might get some heat for this lol) there are ways to make it challenging, less tedious, and take less time to prepare for like wow's raiding for example.
in eq most raids (the ones i went on at least) were just huge zergs that took little skill, just a whole lot of people, and it took forever to get everyone buffed up and ready especially after a wipe.
in wow you can wipe then be ready to go in minutes, also there are some pretty kool ways of killing the bosses and if you don't use certain strategies then you will defiantly wipe.
now don't get me wrong, i am not saying wow is the be all end all of raiding but i think blizzard had some good ideas when it comes to raiding, the main problem is i think it is a bit to easy...but thats just my personal opinion.
100% Agreed. WoW was on the right track, especially in BWL when you had to deal with agro drops and different types of strange debuffs and whatnot...but I agree that it was too easy.
I'd like to add though, that they had too much raiding content. They should have left it with 3 raid instances and focuesd more on very difficult single group dungeons with epic rewards.
Originally posted by Vengeful 100% Agreed. WoW was on the right track, especially in BWL when you had to deal with agro drops and different types of strange debuffs and whatnot...but I agree that it was too easy. I'd like to add though, that they had too much raiding content. They should have left it with 3 raid instances and focuesd more on very difficult single group dungeons with epic rewards.
defiantly, i think they need to release alot more small group content and even solo content for endgame. not to derail yet another thread but what kills me about wow is the game is made for soloers/casuals/small groups all the way to lvl 60 then it becomes a raid-centric/pvp grind.
i like the pvp and all but grinding the same 3 instances for 10+ hours per day just to get the highest pvp rank is a joke. why make a casual friendly game from lvl 1-59 then all of a sudden have it be a hardcore, grind, raid-centric game? that has never made any sense to me.
100% Agreed. WoW was on the right track, especially in BWL when you had to deal with agro drops and different types of strange debuffs and whatnot...but I agree that it was too easy. I'd like to add though, that they had too much raiding content. They should have left it with 3 raid instances and focuesd more on very difficult single group dungeons with epic rewards.
defiantly, i think they need to release alot more small group content and even solo content for endgame. not to derail yet another thread but what kills me about wow is the game is made for soloers/casuals/small groups all the way to lvl 60 then it becomes a raid-centric/pvp grind.
i like the pvp and all but grinding the same 3 instances for 10+ hours per day just to get the highest pvp rank is a joke. why make a casual friendly game from lvl 1-59 then all of a sudden have it be a hardcore, grind, raid-centric game? that has never made any sense to me.
Yeah...I didn't mind that they had the Raid Content, and I enjoyed it for the better part of a year...but the Group/Solo gameplay just ....stopped at level 60. And the instances which were supposed to be for groups ended up being for small raids =/
But that's changed now, I know.
Anyways...I'm happy at the approach that Vanguard is taking, keeping the content at the same ratio for all levels is a wikkid idea. Go go lvl 10 Raids!!!
Originally posted by vesavius Originally posted by vesavius Raiding is not an "option" Yes, it is. I stated that from the start, and so did Brad in his statement. Maybe time for you to go back and read what he said to refresh yourself. Anyhow, can I ask *how* do you know not raiding isnt optional? Have you actually played the game? I would be interested in your source that gives you such a cast iron knowledge of a game that won't be even released for 6 months... I'm basing my views on the Dev posts, I am genuinely interested in where yours come from.
See, Pan crush your argument here, if I want the best AC BP item, raiding is not an option, it is a must, unless you are disagreeing with Vengeful example.
if you mind being a second-class citizen; if you do not raid then your gear will be worse than the gear a raider has overall. It's silly to swing around the red herring of 'some of the best items come from other sources'; it's completely and utterly irrelevant to the discussion. Am I crazy, or did Brad in the statement *you posted* clearly and openly say that he sees no reason why someone who who dosent raid won't be able to have the most powerful gear in the game if they so choose? Please, go back and reread that before you post again.. it's very important.
Again Pan crush your argument, you derail it to the exact wording of what Brad may or not have said, if he pooh or burp. The fact is non-raider are second class citizens in groups.
There simply are not other avenues to follow to get gear equal to what a raider will have You know more then Devs about this? Brad seems to think otherwise... and clearly states that in the 'statement you posted*. I'm surprised that you have a better source of information then the CeO of Sigil... Again Pan destroy your argument, SOME of the best items must be obtained by raiding, thereby making all non-raiding off, they doesn't have the best gear, there is only 1 avenue, which is raiding as Brad intended it. there are only ways to get second rate substitutes. As you yourself said, "Seriously, this whole thing all boils down to the fact that if your gonna play VG and don't want to raid, then you just have got to accept you will *not* have access to *all* the top end content and gear." No... the point I am making is that you will not have access to *all* the top end content and gear from drops, not *none* of it... Some of the gear you can get via grouping will be as good as raid gear, as has clearly been stated. And thats without the other avenues you can gain top end raid gear, such as buying it off raiders from all that coin you end up with from grouping all the time for instance. Again Pan crush your arguments to dust and you sidetrack everything, as usual.
See, as a raider you don't value efficiency, but presence and action, you answer, you earn DKP, you get loot. No matter if you are efficient or not. Answering you is a complete waste of time and I understand Pan loses interest.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Vengeful I just think it's funny at how they complain that you can't get ALL of the most powerful items in the game without raiding, and therefore the game is not casual friendly.
....when that is EXACTLY how WoW operates.... You know, that little game that is championed as The Casual MMORPG
I think this is funny, coming from a guy who raid and never accomplish anything in the raiding world of EQ. Yes, you Vengeful. I saw you complaining in the GC in old Triad, against the officers. I saw you join the "worst/bad ass" guild on the server (LoS) and I saw it crumble to nothingness short after. So exactly, what is your point here, you who are a strong complainer but have yet to prove achieving anything worthwhile on the raid basic? Even me who dislike rading as nothing else was a better element for TC (I was the only chanter showing to raids for 30 times maybe if that matter in the balance, all with old C2 + VoG...Zzzz). Endlessly complaining about the officers, about wanting the loot, about stuff not been handed to your on a silver plate. Really, I fail to understand your point.
Giving 1 hp inside raiding or 1000000 hps has the same result, it is unfair and make grouping subservant to a foreign gameplay. I bring simple truth, simple fact, and as usual all you do is trash and bring nonsense as if it would help your cause. Maybe with likemind individuals, I dunno the other here so I can't talk of them. But I know YOU and I know any guild is better without you than with you.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I thought this was supposed to be a unique, 3rd generation MMOG?
Pass....
Games: WAR, LotRO, AO, GW, EQ, EQ2, AC, AC2, Vanguard, CoH, EVE, HZs, SO, MxO, SWG, DAoC, WoW, WWIIOL --------------------------------------
There's a world behind the world, Professor Robinson. Lie once, cheat twice and everything becomes clear. Do not mistake my deception for a character flaw. It is philosophical choice, a profound understanding of the universe. It is a way of life. - Doctor Smith
Originally posted by Anofalye See, as a raider you don't value efficiency, but presence and action, you answer, you earn DKP, you get loot. No matter if you are efficient or not. Answering you is a complete waste of time and I understand Pan loses interest.
it is no different in a small group environment, I'm frankly sick of the raid discussion but from this statement it is obvious to me you have very little knowledge about raiding and how dkp works in most guilds.
if you are in a small group you earn loot if you are inefficient as well, the only difference is there is a smaller room for error in a small group (in some cases).
in most guilds if you are inefficient or don't do your job, not only will you not get to bid on loot but you may get dkp taken away. obviously all guilds handle dkp differently but I'm sure you would generalize all raid guilds and claim they all award loot to anyone no matter their performance in raids or pve experience.
and its funny that you claim a raider doesn't value efficiency, have you ever raided in your entire life? i kind of doubt it TBH.
Originally posted by Anofalye Originally posted by Vengeful I just think it's funny at how they complain that you can't get ALL of the most powerful items in the game without raiding, and therefore the game is not casual friendly.
....when that is EXACTLY how WoW operates.... You know, that little game that is championed as The Casual MMORPG
I think this is funny, coming from a guy who raid and never accomplish anything in the raiding world of EQ. Yes, you Vengeful. I saw you complaining in the GC in old Triad, against the officers. I saw you join the "worst/bad ass" guild on the server (LoS) and I saw it crumble to nothingness short after. So exactly, what is your point here, you who are a strong complainer but have yet to prove achieving anything worthwhile on the raid basic? Even me who dislike rading as nothing else was a better element for TC (I was the only chanter showing to raids for 30 times maybe if that matter in the balance, all with old C2 + VoG...Zzzz). Endlessly complaining about the officers, about wanting the loot, about stuff not been handed to your on a silver plate. Really, I fail to understand your point.
Giving 1 hp inside raiding or 1000000 hps has the same result, it is unfair and make grouping subservant to a foreign gameplay. I bring simple truth, simple fact, and as usual all you do is trash and bring nonsense as if it would help your cause. Maybe with likemind individuals, I dunno the other here so I can't talk of them. But I know YOU and I know any guild is better without you than with you.
Nice try, but wrong Vengeful. I've never played EQ and only played EQII for a month or so.
And I really, I think you may have misunderstood me....cause I'm not exactly a complainer o.O All I was saying was that WoW is raid heavy at end game, yet people tend to forget that. Games with raiding can obviously be casual friendly, so the "Raid = Anti-Casual" argument doesn't really work, when WoW is the perfect counter example.
P.S.
The Interweb is really too big of a place to try and call people out like that. FYI.
Originally posted by vesavius Raiding is not an "option" quote of me Yes, it is. I stated that from the start, and so did Brad in his statement. Maybe time for you to go back and read what he said to refresh yourself. Anyhow, can I ask *how* do you know not raiding isnt optional? Have you actually played the game? I would be interested in your source that gives you such a cast iron knowledge of a game that won't be even released for 6 months... I'm basing my views on the Dev posts, I am genuinely interested in where yours come from.
OK, so you've just made it completely clear that you're not interested in any kind of real discussion, that you're simply going to play absurd word games. My statement, as anyone could scroll up and see, was actually that raiding is not an option if you mind being a second-class citizen. Taking a statement with a clear meaning, then cutting part of it to completely change the meaning is intellectually dishonest and I'm not going to continue trying to hold a real discussion with you. I could sit down and snip-quote you and pretend that you said all kinds of things you didn't say just like you did here.
I mean, we've got pure absurdities going on like:
(me)So what you're saying is that "if you don't raid your gear will be worse than the gear of someone who does."
No, once again... I said you won't have access to *all* the top end content and gear unless you raid, meaning that if you don't raid you will not get the drops.
So, if the raider has access to all of the top end gear, and you only have access to a fraction of that top end gear, how is your gear not going to be worse than the raider's gear? It's really simple overall; if someone else can get all of the best stuff, and you can only get some best stuff and some substitutes...
Originally posted by Vengeful I dunno man...it really depends on who you play with. I always enjoyed being able to chat with 40 of my friends at once and struggling with them to overcome something for the first time.
Did your guild use a DKP system? Because by my standards, a group of people that can't distribute video game loot without a complex accounting system don't actually qualify as 'friends'.
Originally posted by Anofalye See, Pan crush your argument here, if I want the best AC BP item, raiding is not an option, it is a must, unless you are disagreeing with Vengeful example.
Yes, it's funny - I've already posted the quotes clearly showing this, and explained exactly what it means. If you want to make a set of the best gear, you will either raid or not be able to complete that set of gear, as Brad clearly stated in the post that I quoted. There doesn't seem to be much point in going line by line arguing when he's just going to deny that the quote says what it does and deliberately drop context on the response to 'win' his bit of the argument.
Is it interesting to you that the Vanguard fans seem to have two completely different ideas of what the game is like and never argue amongst themselves over it? Some of them insisit that it is only right and proper that if you dont raid your gear won't be as good, while others insist that the game will let you have equal gear without raiding.
If not then who gives a fig if someone has so-called better gear than you , or where they got it from. Unless of course you are anally-retentive then I guess it does matter.
If there is PvP then it makes a difference as the gear affects the outcome.
Originally posted by _Shadowmage If not then who gives a fig if someone has so-called better gear than you , or where they got it from. Unless of course you are anally-retentive then I guess it does matter.
So if the gear is so unimportant, why not just make raid gear worse?
this is from Vanguard faq's Class/role section 7.5.3.1
That's pretty accurate. A good percentage of the components crafters will need to make these powerful items are found out in the field. In other words, they might drop off a boss mob in the depths of a dungeon or they might be found in the depths of a dungeon, to be harvested from there, by the right people, with the right tools.
Bottom line: Some of the phat loot will be dropped complete from mobs or as quest rewards. Another big percentage will be dropped as components either from mobs, quest rewards, or from harvesting (which isn't necessarily in your back yard with the birds singing on a nice sunny day).
We hope this not only avoids concerns, but that it also creates interdependence between the crafting and adventuring spheres. We foresee a lot of adventurers returning to towns to sell their components, or allowing their friend to use the components they received adventuring to make useful items (of both spheres). We also foresee a lot of harvesters grouping with adventurers to guard them as they fight their way down to that rare vein of mithril that spawned in the depths of a nasty dungeon. Or working together to remove that cave-in blocking the way to the boss mob, the rare harvesting spawn, or both
I don't see where it says in here that the best items come from raids only, and don't we have to believe what the people at Sigil tell us until the game comes out and we can try it out for ourselve or hear about it from our friends, or on these forums.
Originally posted by Pantastic Originally posted by _Shadowmage If not then who gives a fig if someone has so-called better gear than you , or where they got it from. Unless of course you are anally-retentive then I guess it does matter.So if the gear is so unimportant, why not just make raid gear worse?
Duh - because then no one would raid And all that time spent making raid content would be wasted.
Personally I cant see myself ever participating in a raid. I am not fussed about gear and dont ahve the time to spend on one.
I enjoy grouping - so around the 4 to 10 player mark.
Originally posted by Vengeful I dunno man...it really depends on who you play with. I always enjoyed being able to chat with 40 of my friends at once and struggling with them to overcome something for the first time.
Did your guild use a DKP system? Because by my standards, a group of people that can't distribute video game loot without a complex accounting system don't actually qualify as 'friends'.
We did... but it was always understood that the DKP system was only in place to make sure the loot was spread out evenly, and it did it's job. Our DKP system was simply 1 point for each kill and then an auction was held for each piece of loot. No crazy rules.
But then...I'd say that trying to manage loot for 40 person raids with a guild of 60 or 70 is nearly impossible without some sort of "Accounting" system, as you put it. It really just depends on the type of people you let into your guild and the guild atmosphere, whether a DKP system is a problem or not.
When the guild I was leader of in WoW started raiding, I suggested not having a DKP system and there were far more complaints about that then you appear to believe there would be. DKP systems, so long as they are simple, give everyone proof that they are on the same page and there won't be any sort of favoritism. Cause, as I suggested before, if you have 60 or 70 people in your guild, some may not get along all that well or simply aren't very familiar with one another.
See, as a raider you don't value efficiency, but presence and action, you answer, you earn DKP, you get loot. No matter if you are efficient or not. Answering you is a complete waste of time and I understand Pan loses interest.
it is no different in a small group environment, I'm frankly sick of the raid discussion but from this statement it is obvious to me you have very little knowledge about raiding and how dkp works in most guilds.
if you are in a small group you earn loot if you are inefficient as well, the only difference is there is a smaller room for error in a small group (in some cases).
in most guilds if you are inefficient or don't do your job, not only will you not get to bid on loot but you may get dkp taken away. obviously all guilds handle dkp differently but I'm sure you would generalize all raid guilds and claim they all award loot to anyone no matter their performance in raids or pve experience.
and its funny that you claim a raider doesn't value efficiency, have you ever raided in your entire life? i kind of doubt it TBH.
See, in any topic, you have to pick which battles matter and which you merely nod. I will merely nod in favor of a debt/no CR system, of instancing, of nice solo gameplay and so on.
But I will fight over raiding end-game.
As to the DKP talks, let's just say that the only guild who didn't try to recruit me on my server was Asura, Japanese speaking guild only with tons of bots. So I was an element guilds value dearly, they try to recruit, they try to be nice with me.
I raid 1 month actively and 1 month unactively, and I can tell you that 90% of the raiders are sitting and earning DKP, not really effective.
However in a group, if you sit and are uneffective, you won't get more group invite. Grouping value individual worth and cooperation. Raiding is a complete mess.
Raiding is killing grouping and it is not based on efficiency, but on attendancies. Overgrown ENFORCED chatroom. If you have to bring that down to 1 topic only, 1 point in a MMO that you would fight over, I rather bear DAoC PvP enforcing than raiding, yet both are unacceptable for me. Gaheris server, even worser than basic DAoC!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
As to the DKP talks, let's just say that the only guild who didn't try to recruit me on my server was Asura, Japanese speaking guild only with tons of bots. So I was an element guilds value dearly, they try to recruit, they try to be nice with me.
I raid 1 month actively and 1 month unactively, and I can tell you that 90% of the raiders are sitting and earning DKP, not really effective.
However in a group, if you sit and are uneffective, you won't get more group invite. Grouping value individual worth and cooperation. Raiding is a complete mess.
Raiding is killing grouping and it is not based on efficiency, but on attendancies. Overgrown ENFORCED chatroom. If you have to bring that down to 1 topic only, 1 point in a MMO that you would fight over, I rather bear DAoC PvP enforcing than raiding, yet both are unacceptable for me. Gaheris server, even worser than basic DAoC!
The good news is, Vanguard raids will only have about 25 or so members, not the huge 40 man raids that we've seen in most MMOs to date. When you have 20 or 25 people in a raid group, you can tell who is just being a loot spounge and who is actually trying. Sooo...perhaps you'll enjoy Vanguard's raiding content.
I know, in my guilds, if someone doesn't pull their weight, they don't stick around. =P
See, in any topic, you have to pick which battles matter and which you merely nod. I will merely nod in favor of a debt/no CR system, of instancing, of nice solo gameplay and so on.
But I will fight over raiding end-game.
As to the DKP talks, let's just say that the only guild who didn't try to recruit me on my server was Asura, Japanese speaking guild only with tons of bots. So I was an element guilds value dearly, they try to recruit, they try to be nice with me.
I raid 1 month actively and 1 month unactively, and I can tell you that 90% of the raiders are sitting and earning DKP, not really effective.
However in a group, if you sit and are uneffective, you won't get more group invite. Grouping value individual worth and cooperation. Raiding is a complete mess.
Raiding is killing grouping and it is not based on efficiency, but on attendancies. Overgrown ENFORCED chatroom. If you have to bring that down to 1 topic only, 1 point in a MMO that you would fight over, I rather bear DAoC PvP enforcing than raiding, yet both are unacceptable for me. Gaheris server, even worser than basic DAoC!
in eq you could have like 100 ppl on a raid and just zerg mobs....i would have to say that in a raid like that i agree with you.
but in games like wow and vanguard where the raids are designed for 40 people no more no less (much like grouping) it is alot different.
group content is balanced for 8 people (for example) and raid content is balanced for 40, if it is possible for even some of your guild members to just sit there and not be efficient, then there is a balancing issue and the content needs to be buffed.
and in my guild (in wow) if you sit there ineffective you get removed from the raid and get no dkp or loot, and yes they monitor healing /damage meters. and if it became a problem you would get removed from the guild as well.
i understand your point that raiding kills grouping in a game like eq (from a achievers point of view only) but the argument pretty much stops there IMO.
i think the newer games have addressed the problem of "zerging" where you don't need to be efficient because there is so many people on a raid designed for much less.
again, i believe raiding can and will be challenging in vanguard and i also believe that if you are lazy and sit on your ass and not do your job, any respectable guild would not tollorate it.
Originally posted by Vengeful The good news is, Vanguard raids will only have about 25 or so members, not the huge 40 man raids that we've seen in most MMOs to date. When you have 20 or 25 people in a raid group, you can tell who is just being a loot spounge and who is actually trying. Sooo...perhaps you'll enjoy Vanguard's raiding content. I know, in my guilds, if someone doesn't pull their weight, they don't stick around. =P
You are assuming I want to give it a try again?
Okay, let's me reverse the logic: Eh guys, AoC is going to be AWESOME PvP, as it should always have been, bla bla bla. Then you see, only a few things change, will you start PvPing? I won't, but I would before I try this enforced raiding for sure.
Why do you keep trying to change my mind? I never like raiding. I give it a try (1 month of heavy raiding, another of more or less showing). I saw tons of leech, unworthiness and lame stuff. I don't want to give it another chance, especially if peoples are enforcing it. What IF it is just as lame as the first time? I did give it an honest chance and it was a lame waste of my time and it turns out to ruin everything else, so why do you expect me to do such a leap of faith?
EQ raiding prove me beyond any doubt that I heavily dislike it. IF raiding was an alternative (not giving the best grouping loot), then maybe I would try it, love it and become a raider...MAYBE. But enforced? Forget it. In grouping, if I meet someone I dislike heavily and can't stand, I just put him on ignore. In raiding, I have to cope with the house of the lames? Sorry, not during my entertainment, if someone is lame, he is not welcome in my playtime, period. Now in the case of raiding, I don't know what is soo hard for you to understand, but you will be surrounded by peoples who you would not bear normally during entertainment for various reasons, why try to enforce that? Me and Afterlife? No, it is better that we part road right now, for everyone!
I said it, I pick my fight and battle, and this one I call for it. Raiding kills grouping!
PS: Most peoples I saw in the uberguilds didn't pull their weight as you said, they are just barely following orders and bitching...they fail to do their part, then the raid leader figure another strategy or go into teaching the particuliar aspect he wants from these load weight...
PPS: A game who said I will have to raid is a game that is mistaken, I MAY raid again, but it would never come from an enforced game that I would not even play to start with.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Comments
I dunno man...it really depends on who you play with. I always enjoyed being able to chat with 40 of my friends at once and struggling with them to overcome something for the first time.
The first few times you kill a raid boss with your guild, there's pats on the back all around. Teamwork +++ And you get a big grin on your face, and you /w your friends in other guilds and you're like "OMFG!!! We just killed [Raid Boss]!!!11!!!1!!"
But then, like I said...its about who you raid with. I've been in guilds with HORRIBLE raids where people are yelling at one another and they aren't in it for the group effort...and then I've been in guilds where it was a 4 hour comedy show and I was laughing and having a great time the entire time, plus I got some phat lewtz.
i agree that eq was defiantly as you describe but (i know i might get some heat for this lol) there are ways to make it challenging, less tedious, and take less time to prepare for like wow's raiding for example.
in eq most raids (the ones i went on at least) were just huge zergs that took little skill, just a whole lot of people, and it took forever to get everyone buffed up and ready especially after a wipe.
in wow you can wipe then be ready to go in minutes, also there are some pretty kool ways of killing the bosses and if you don't use certain strategies then you will defiantly wipe.
now don't get me wrong, i am not saying wow is the be all end all of raiding but i think blizzard had some good ideas when it comes to raiding, the main problem is i think it is a bit to easy...but thats just my personal opinion.
i agree that eq was defiantly as you describe but (i know i might get some heat for this lol) there are ways to make it challenging, less tedious, and take less time to prepare for like wow's raiding for example.
in eq most raids (the ones i went on at least) were just huge zergs that took little skill, just a whole lot of people, and it took forever to get everyone buffed up and ready especially after a wipe.
in wow you can wipe then be ready to go in minutes, also there are some pretty kool ways of killing the bosses and if you don't use certain strategies then you will defiantly wipe.
now don't get me wrong, i am not saying wow is the be all end all of raiding but i think blizzard had some good ideas when it comes to raiding, the main problem is i think it is a bit to easy...but thats just my personal opinion.
100% Agreed. WoW was on the right track, especially in BWL when you had to deal with agro drops and different types of strange debuffs and whatnot...but I agree that it was too easy.
I'd like to add though, that they had too much raiding content. They should have left it with 3 raid instances and focuesd more on very difficult single group dungeons with epic rewards.
defiantly, i think they need to release alot more small group content and even solo content for endgame. not to derail yet another thread but what kills me about wow is the game is made for soloers/casuals/small groups all the way to lvl 60 then it becomes a raid-centric/pvp grind.
i like the pvp and all but grinding the same 3 instances for 10+ hours per day just to get the highest pvp rank is a joke. why make a casual friendly game from lvl 1-59 then all of a sudden have it be a hardcore, grind, raid-centric game? that has never made any sense to me.
defiantly, i think they need to release alot more small group content and even solo content for endgame. not to derail yet another thread but what kills me about wow is the game is made for soloers/casuals/small groups all the way to lvl 60 then it becomes a raid-centric/pvp grind.
i like the pvp and all but grinding the same 3 instances for 10+ hours per day just to get the highest pvp rank is a joke. why make a casual friendly game from lvl 1-59 then all of a sudden have it be a hardcore, grind, raid-centric game? that has never made any sense to me.
Yeah...I didn't mind that they had the Raid Content, and I enjoyed it for the better part of a year...but the Group/Solo gameplay just ....stopped at level 60. And the instances which were supposed to be for groups ended up being for small raids =/
But that's changed now, I know.
Anyways...I'm happy at the approach that Vanguard is taking, keeping the content at the same ratio for all levels is a wikkid idea. Go go lvl 10 Raids!!!
See, as a raider you don't value efficiency, but presence and action, you answer, you earn DKP, you get loot. No matter if you are efficient or not. Answering you is a complete waste of time and I understand Pan loses interest.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I think this is funny, coming from a guy who raid and never accomplish anything in the raiding world of EQ. Yes, you Vengeful. I saw you complaining in the GC in old Triad, against the officers. I saw you join the "worst/bad ass" guild on the server (LoS) and I saw it crumble to nothingness short after. So exactly, what is your point here, you who are a strong complainer but have yet to prove achieving anything worthwhile on the raid basic? Even me who dislike rading as nothing else was a better element for TC (I was the only chanter showing to raids for 30 times maybe if that matter in the balance, all with old C2 + VoG...Zzzz). Endlessly complaining about the officers, about wanting the loot, about stuff not been handed to your on a silver plate. Really, I fail to understand your point.
Giving 1 hp inside raiding or 1000000 hps has the same result, it is unfair and make grouping subservant to a foreign gameplay. I bring simple truth, simple fact, and as usual all you do is trash and bring nonsense as if it would help your cause. Maybe with likemind individuals, I dunno the other here so I can't talk of them. But I know YOU and I know any guild is better without you than with you.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Yet another raiding game?
I thought this was supposed to be a unique, 3rd generation MMOG?
Pass....
Games:
WAR, LotRO, AO, GW, EQ, EQ2, AC, AC2, Vanguard, CoH, EVE, HZs, SO, MxO, SWG, DAoC, WoW, WWIIOL
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There's a world behind the world, Professor Robinson. Lie once, cheat twice and everything becomes clear. Do not mistake my deception for a character flaw. It is philosophical choice, a profound understanding of the universe. It is a way of life. - Doctor Smith
it is no different in a small group environment, I'm frankly sick of the raid discussion but from this statement it is obvious to me you have very little knowledge about raiding and how dkp works in most guilds.
if you are in a small group you earn loot if you are inefficient as well, the only difference is there is a smaller room for error in a small group (in some cases).
in most guilds if you are inefficient or don't do your job, not only will you not get to bid on loot but you may get dkp taken away. obviously all guilds handle dkp differently but I'm sure you would generalize all raid guilds and claim they all award loot to anyone no matter their performance in raids or pve experience.
and its funny that you claim a raider doesn't value efficiency, have you ever raided in your entire life? i kind of doubt it TBH.
I think this is funny, coming from a guy who raid and never accomplish anything in the raiding world of EQ. Yes, you Vengeful. I saw you complaining in the GC in old Triad, against the officers. I saw you join the "worst/bad ass" guild on the server (LoS) and I saw it crumble to nothingness short after. So exactly, what is your point here, you who are a strong complainer but have yet to prove achieving anything worthwhile on the raid basic? Even me who dislike rading as nothing else was a better element for TC (I was the only chanter showing to raids for 30 times maybe if that matter in the balance, all with old C2 + VoG...Zzzz). Endlessly complaining about the officers, about wanting the loot, about stuff not been handed to your on a silver plate. Really, I fail to understand your point.
Giving 1 hp inside raiding or 1000000 hps has the same result, it is unfair and make grouping subservant to a foreign gameplay. I bring simple truth, simple fact, and as usual all you do is trash and bring nonsense as if it would help your cause. Maybe with likemind individuals, I dunno the other here so I can't talk of them. But I know YOU and I know any guild is better without you than with you.
Nice try, but wrong Vengeful. I've never played EQ and only played EQII for a month or so.
And I really, I think you may have misunderstood me....cause I'm not exactly a complainer o.O All I was saying was that WoW is raid heavy at end game, yet people tend to forget that. Games with raiding can obviously be casual friendly, so the "Raid = Anti-Casual" argument doesn't really work, when WoW is the perfect counter example.
P.S.
The Interweb is really too big of a place to try and call people out like that. FYI.
OK, so you've just made it completely clear that you're not interested in any kind of real discussion, that you're simply going to play absurd word games. My statement, as anyone could scroll up and see, was actually that raiding is not an option if you mind being a second-class citizen. Taking a statement with a clear meaning, then cutting part of it to completely change the meaning is intellectually dishonest and I'm not going to continue trying to hold a real discussion with you. I could sit down and snip-quote you and pretend that you said all kinds of things you didn't say just like you did here.
I mean, we've got pure absurdities going on like:
So, if the raider has access to all of the top end gear, and you only have access to a fraction of that top end gear, how is your gear not going to be worse than the raider's gear? It's really simple overall; if someone else can get all of the best stuff, and you can only get some best stuff and some substitutes...
Did your guild use a DKP system? Because by my standards, a group of people that can't distribute video game loot without a complex accounting system don't actually qualify as 'friends'.
Yes, it's funny - I've already posted the quotes clearly showing this, and explained exactly what it means. If you want to make a set of the best gear, you will either raid or not be able to complete that set of gear, as Brad clearly stated in the post that I quoted. There doesn't seem to be much point in going line by line arguing when he's just going to deny that the quote says what it does and deliberately drop context on the response to 'win' his bit of the argument.
Is it interesting to you that the Vanguard fans seem to have two completely different ideas of what the game is like and never argue amongst themselves over it? Some of them insisit that it is only right and proper that if you dont raid your gear won't be as good, while others insist that the game will let you have equal gear without raiding.
I thought you got laughed off this forum a month or so ago, nice to see you're still alive. Good luck with the crusade, let me know how it turns out.
Is there PvP in Vanguard?
If not then who gives a fig if someone has so-called better gear than you , or where they got it from. Unless of course you are anally-retentive then I guess it does matter.
If there is PvP then it makes a difference as the gear affects the outcome.
So if the gear is so unimportant, why not just make raid gear worse?
That's pretty accurate. A good percentage of the components crafters will need to make these powerful items are found out in the field. In other words, they might drop off a boss mob in the depths of a dungeon or they might be found in the depths of a dungeon, to be harvested from there, by the right people, with the right tools.
Bottom line: Some of the phat loot will be dropped complete from mobs or as quest rewards. Another big percentage will be dropped as components either from mobs, quest rewards, or from harvesting (which isn't necessarily in your back yard with the birds singing on a nice sunny day).
We hope this not only avoids concerns, but that it also creates interdependence between the crafting and adventuring spheres. We foresee a lot of adventurers returning to towns to sell their components, or allowing their friend to use the components they received adventuring to make useful items (of both spheres). We also foresee a lot of harvesters grouping with adventurers to guard them as they fight their way down to that rare vein of mithril that spawned in the depths of a nasty dungeon. Or working together to remove that cave-in blocking the way to the boss mob, the rare harvesting spawn, or both
I don't see where it says in here that the best items come from raids only, and don't we have to believe what the people at Sigil tell us until the game comes out and we can try it out for ourselve or hear about it from our friends, or on these forums.
Duh - because then no one would raid
And all that time spent making raid content would be wasted.
Personally I cant see myself ever participating in a raid. I am not fussed about gear and dont ahve the time to spend on one.
I enjoy grouping - so around the 4 to 10 player mark.
Did your guild use a DKP system? Because by my standards, a group of people that can't distribute video game loot without a complex accounting system don't actually qualify as 'friends'.
We did... but it was always understood that the DKP system was only in place to make sure the loot was spread out evenly, and it did it's job. Our DKP system was simply 1 point for each kill and then an auction was held for each piece of loot. No crazy rules.
But then...I'd say that trying to manage loot for 40 person raids with a guild of 60 or 70 is nearly impossible without some sort of "Accounting" system, as you put it. It really just depends on the type of people you let into your guild and the guild atmosphere, whether a DKP system is a problem or not.
When the guild I was leader of in WoW started raiding, I suggested not having a DKP system and there were far more complaints about that then you appear to believe there would be. DKP systems, so long as they are simple, give everyone proof that they are on the same page and there won't be any sort of favoritism. Cause, as I suggested before, if you have 60 or 70 people in your guild, some may not get along all that well or simply aren't very familiar with one another.
it is no different in a small group environment, I'm frankly sick of the raid discussion but from this statement it is obvious to me you have very little knowledge about raiding and how dkp works in most guilds.
if you are in a small group you earn loot if you are inefficient as well, the only difference is there is a smaller room for error in a small group (in some cases).
in most guilds if you are inefficient or don't do your job, not only will you not get to bid on loot but you may get dkp taken away. obviously all guilds handle dkp differently but I'm sure you would generalize all raid guilds and claim they all award loot to anyone no matter their performance in raids or pve experience.
and its funny that you claim a raider doesn't value efficiency, have you ever raided in your entire life? i kind of doubt it TBH.
See, in any topic, you have to pick which battles matter and which you merely nod. I will merely nod in favor of a debt/no CR system, of instancing, of nice solo gameplay and so on.
But I will fight over raiding end-game.
As to the DKP talks, let's just say that the only guild who didn't try to recruit me on my server was Asura, Japanese speaking guild only with tons of bots. So I was an element guilds value dearly, they try to recruit, they try to be nice with me.
I raid 1 month actively and 1 month unactively, and I can tell you that 90% of the raiders are sitting and earning DKP, not really effective.
However in a group, if you sit and are uneffective, you won't get more group invite. Grouping value individual worth and cooperation. Raiding is a complete mess.
Raiding is killing grouping and it is not based on efficiency, but on attendancies. Overgrown ENFORCED chatroom. If you have to bring that down to 1 topic only, 1 point in a MMO that you would fight over, I rather bear DAoC PvP enforcing than raiding, yet both are unacceptable for me. Gaheris server, even worser than basic DAoC!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
The good news is, Vanguard raids will only have about 25 or so members, not the huge 40 man raids that we've seen in most MMOs to date. When you have 20 or 25 people in a raid group, you can tell who is just being a loot spounge and who is actually trying. Sooo...perhaps you'll enjoy Vanguard's raiding content.
I know, in my guilds, if someone doesn't pull their weight, they don't stick around. =P
in eq you could have like 100 ppl on a raid and just zerg mobs....i would have to say that in a raid like that i agree with you.
but in games like wow and vanguard where the raids are designed for 40 people no more no less (much like grouping) it is alot different.
group content is balanced for 8 people (for example) and raid content is balanced for 40, if it is possible for even some of your guild members to just sit there and not be efficient, then there is a balancing issue and the content needs to be buffed.
and in my guild (in wow) if you sit there ineffective you get removed from the raid and get no dkp or loot, and yes they monitor healing /damage meters. and if it became a problem you would get removed from the guild as well.
i understand your point that raiding kills grouping in a game like eq (from a achievers point of view only) but the argument pretty much stops there IMO.
i think the newer games have addressed the problem of "zerging" where you don't need to be efficient because there is so many people on a raid designed for much less.
again, i believe raiding can and will be challenging in vanguard and i also believe that if you are lazy and sit on your ass and not do your job, any respectable guild would not tollorate it.
yep, same here.
You are assuming I want to give it a try again?
Okay, let's me reverse the logic: Eh guys, AoC is going to be AWESOME PvP, as it should always have been, bla bla bla. Then you see, only a few things change, will you start PvPing? I won't, but I would before I try this enforced raiding for sure.
Why do you keep trying to change my mind? I never like raiding. I give it a try (1 month of heavy raiding, another of more or less showing). I saw tons of leech, unworthiness and lame stuff. I don't want to give it another chance, especially if peoples are enforcing it. What IF it is just as lame as the first time? I did give it an honest chance and it was a lame waste of my time and it turns out to ruin everything else, so why do you expect me to do such a leap of faith?
EQ raiding prove me beyond any doubt that I heavily dislike it. IF raiding was an alternative (not giving the best grouping loot), then maybe I would try it, love it and become a raider...MAYBE. But enforced? Forget it. In grouping, if I meet someone I dislike heavily and can't stand, I just put him on ignore. In raiding, I have to cope with the house of the lames? Sorry, not during my entertainment, if someone is lame, he is not welcome in my playtime, period. Now in the case of raiding, I don't know what is soo hard for you to understand, but you will be surrounded by peoples who you would not bear normally during entertainment for various reasons, why try to enforce that? Me and Afterlife? No, it is better that we part road right now, for everyone!
I said it, I pick my fight and battle, and this one I call for it. Raiding kills grouping!
PS: Most peoples I saw in the uberguilds didn't pull their weight as you said, they are just barely following orders and bitching...they fail to do their part, then the raid leader figure another strategy or go into teaching the particuliar aspect he wants from these load weight...
PPS: A game who said I will have to raid is a game that is mistaken, I MAY raid again, but it would never come from an enforced game that I would not even play to start with.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren