Im not sure if im a hardcore pvp'er or not? I love it, i'll attack anyone who's red and will give experience or honor, but i take no pleasure in killing someone over and over or killing lower levels. I also hate the idea of losing items in pvp if killed. I consider myself somewhere in the middle of the pvp --- pve spectrum. What makes a hardcore pvp'er? What's so wrong with attacking someone else if that's how the rules of the game are? I dont see it as ruining someones day (unless you start camping) its just part of the risk and excitement of a game. It's called competition.
When designing a game, i dont think you can ever make those hardcore "lets kill any red and loot all their crap all day long" pvpers and the hardcore "pvp is nothing but griefing and a waste of time and i get insulted irl when someone kills me" pve'rs happy. I think boths groups are in need of commonsense and why would you even want to please extremists? I think most people fall into the middle of both sides.
I dont see a problem with how games are set up now, especially those with pvp and pve servers or ways to toggle pvp on or off. There will always be those people who complain about games not being hardcore enough. I think they are mostly lacking in maturity and thought processing or would be better suited in a fps. Same with extremist carebares, they need to play a game that doesnt involve competition with other people if getting virtually killed makes them upset irl.
Nope, not possible. This is just like apples and oranges, democrats and republicans. Basically, PvP'ers are looking to measure their skills against other players, PvE are not interested in measuring up as much as they are interested in having community fun. Any single game that tries to combine the elements on one server/all areas is asking for trouble, as the PvP community contains members that ultimately will shove their style of gameplay down the PvE players throat by attacking the PvEs. Generally, these kind of self centered individuals are known as assholes. Diablo 2 tried to intermix these styles, only to experience level 50 characters that had all the WP's join a game, zone thru it until the PvE's were located, then frag the group. The PvP's felt good about themselves when their level 50 character beat 5 or six level 10's, then camped the corpses until the PvE's left the game out of frustration. Similarly, in Eve, a PvP game, any newbie player that waunders to security 4 space just to see what it is like is fragged by an experienced player with a higher level setup. From personal experience, the experienced player then went on to frag my capsule/character. They probably do their little victory dance and feel more secure about their station in life becouse they were able to frag a newbie in a game, and kill a character. So, how does a newbie learn if, as soon as they cross the threshold, whether it be level 4 security space, or leave the rogues camp, and a higher level setup frags them? This is what I mean by assholes, it takes no skill to use a high level setup to frag a newbie in any game, yet we all know their are players that do that. Of course, their are also PvP players that look for a challenge, and match their level with the competition, but a newbie player or PvE player never sees them, because those PvP'ers play is more responsible. It is the assholes that every PvE remembers, and those taint the reputation of PvP. Thus, until a gaming company can make their game asshole proof, these styles of play can never integrate.
Originally posted by olddaddy Nope, not possible. This is just like apples and oranges, democrats and republicans. Basically, PvP'ers are looking to measure their skills against other players, PvE are not interested in measuring up as much as they are interested in having community fun.
i just want to comment on this line of thought. if this is the case, then why are "raiding guilds" so exclusive and openly show disdain for everyone not in their guild with as good of stuff as they have?
edited to add: as for the rest of the post. a lot of games (eve in particular) are meant to be played with you as a part of a group/guild/clan/corp. a problem most MMOs ignore is that a lot of people ENJOY playing solo or with just one or two friends. i think that is a larger problem than pvp vs pve players.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
It's not possible, but only partly due to the temperament differences between PVPers and PVEers. The main reason is balance works dramatically differently depending on what designers focus on. PVPers need every little edge they can eke out against their opponents. This competition creates pressure to get the absolute 'best' setup, and hone their reaction and tactics, which more often than not is overkill in the PVE environment. NPC's, being less competitive than players, do not create the same level of pressure on PVEers. Thus PVPers tend to dominate PVEers when they compete for items/loot/etc.
In addition, the lobbying that PVPers engage in to nerf other classes results in unintended consequences for the PVE game. The ways that classes get nerfed are as important to PVEers as PVPers but the effects are frequently unpredictable and dramatic on PVE gameplay. Similarly, PVE changes can mean that the PVP 'best' setup can change, tipping the balance in another direction, creating more lobbying or the nerf bat on a different class, and the wheel goes 'round again.
It is simply not possible to have both types coexist because that are in essence playing a different game but are forced to interact in ways that are destructive to both sides. That is why you get the negative stereotypes, the 'snooty' PVE er who inists on florid language when asking for the simplest item, versus the 'griefer' who kills you, spits on your corpse and then mocks you in vulgar tells.
Originally posted by Stradden This week, I’d like to take a few moments to talk about the idea of PvP players and non-PvP players. In reading through forum after forum, I see that generally, MMORPGers fit themselves into one of these two categories. Either you enjoy PvP or you don’t. What I find interesting about that is the fact that the two sides can’t seem to get along.
Nothing intresting about it. PvPers want to PvP at eveery oppertunity they get and prefferable the ones they attack at least try to fight back PvEers want to go about there business and level and stuff withouth interuption
It’s gotten to the point where name-calling ( Care Bear, Ganker, etc.) comes up in almost any discussion of the topic. My question is why? What is it about these two groups that makes it so difficult for the vocal supporters of each side to come together without argument.
Agreement can't come if two groups have totally opposite intrest in mind My question to all of you is this: Is it possible to create a game design that makes both the hardcore PvPers and the hardcore PvEers happy? Yeah it's possible but not easy. First you have to make a game where PvE ers become a service to the PvPers and prefferably visa versa aswell. Just flagging is just WAY to easy and will come benefit PvEers too much. I thoughed about this some time ago but im still convinced that designated PvP erea's are the way to go. AC2 had a pretty good idea but it was poorly implemented. the idea is too make the PvE ereas where the good farming can be done only reachable through PvP ereas. So you get a bit of both worlds. PvE also must have the ability in a game to make the best items peroid. Then PvPers would value the contact with PvEers as usefull. I think EVE is actaully a good example of a game both benefical for PvP and PvE. Like they fact that implants where easiest to get through the faction system made faction grinders welkom in PvP companiees because most PvP didn't want to do faction grinding. Also PvPers in eve banded together with PvEers to get them through low seq systems.
Comments
When designing a game, i dont think you can ever make those hardcore "lets kill any red and loot all their crap all day long" pvpers and the hardcore "pvp is nothing but griefing and a waste of time and i get insulted irl when someone kills me" pve'rs happy. I think boths groups are in need of commonsense and why would you even want to please extremists? I think most people fall into the middle of both sides.
I dont see a problem with how games are set up now, especially those with pvp and pve servers or ways to toggle pvp on or off. There will always be those people who complain about games not being hardcore enough. I think they are mostly lacking in maturity and thought processing or would be better suited in a fps. Same with extremist carebares, they need to play a game that doesnt involve competition with other people if getting virtually killed makes them upset irl.
For the Horde!
edited to add: as for the rest of the post. a lot of games (eve in particular) are meant to be played with you as a part of a group/guild/clan/corp. a problem most MMOs ignore is that a lot of people ENJOY playing solo or with just one or two friends. i think that is a larger problem than pvp vs pve players.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
It's not possible, but only partly due to the temperament differences between PVPers and PVEers. The main reason is balance works dramatically differently depending on what designers focus on. PVPers need every little edge they can eke out against their opponents. This competition creates pressure to get the absolute 'best' setup, and hone their reaction and tactics, which more often than not is overkill in the PVE environment. NPC's, being less competitive than players, do not create the same level of pressure on PVEers. Thus PVPers tend to dominate PVEers when they compete for items/loot/etc.
In addition, the lobbying that PVPers engage in to nerf other classes results in unintended consequences for the PVE game. The ways that classes get nerfed are as important to PVEers as PVPers but the effects are frequently unpredictable and dramatic on PVE gameplay. Similarly, PVE changes can mean that the PVP 'best' setup can change, tipping the balance in another direction, creating more lobbying or the nerf bat on a different class, and the wheel goes 'round again.
It is simply not possible to have both types coexist because that are in essence playing a different game but are forced to interact in ways that are destructive to both sides. That is why you get the negative stereotypes, the 'snooty' PVE er who inists on florid language when asking for the simplest item, versus the 'griefer' who kills you, spits on your corpse and then mocks you in vulgar tells.