The gaming industry doesn't want to give us another SWG, true, but I disagree with your analysis of why. Do you really believe there are any game development companies out there salivating at the chance to make a SWG MMO after the general playerbase rebellion to both the CU and NGE, however justified that rebellion was? Corporate execs (you know, the people who know absolutely nothing about game design and coding challenges) are the ones who would jump at the chance to work on a SW IP MMO product, but the people who know the game history themselves (the actual developers) would at best be reluctant. SWG players (in particular the pre-NGE variety, the NGE players may actually be the opposite in that just about any shiny trinket pleases them) have a tremendous reputation as a fickle group that is very difficult if not impossible to please. We have organized mass in-game protests, some even with the intention of causing as much game distrubance as possible. We have been incredibly vocal all over the internet decrying both $OE and LEC. Just last week, deservedly or otherwise, the majority of this forum savaged the only group of people (ducklings) who are currently trying to work on a game for that very group. There is a consensus on what we generally want in a game - relatively bug-free, sandbox, Star Wars. But after that the disagreement begins - some want Jedi, some don't, some want Alpha class, some don't, etc.
If SWG had been a wildly successful game, everyone would be copying it regardless of age/timeliness concerns. Success begets imitation.
And this --> <-- is a white blob, topped by a yellow blob, with some non-descript black markings in the middle.
Yes I do, but let me clarify: Do they want to make a SW MMO? Absolutly. Do they want to make a game with the depth & openness of SWG? No. You're right, they ALL want to make a SW MMO, but no a Galaxies style MMO...
I believe that they view the complexity of a SWG style game and don't think it's worth it. SWG (Pre-CU of course) made it's own content, you didn't need expansions, or even good content additions (as proven by SOE).
Technically you're right, and that's the best kind of right... hehe
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
Originally posted by MX13 The odds of us EVER seeing a non-level based MMO again are too high to calculate. It's over, and we lost. The sad thing is that we would all be MUCH happier MMO'ing now if we had never played Galaxies...
I am not convinced of this. I think it is a matter of time until somebody connects the dots and figures out the reason of SWGs eventual failure and disconnects it from the sandbox concept.
Any non-Sandbox game that comes along will have to compete with a Juggernaut in WoW, so the whole concept of not being sandbox will become taboo. I mean, why try to take on WoW? Are you insane (not you MX13, the generic "you")?
There will come a time when somebody is going to realize the only way to make money in the MMORPG market at this point is to do something that just does not exist (anymore). And that is make a working sandbox. SWG Classic was a barely working sandbox, and the potential was apparent to everybody that played it. I never heard anyone say that game had "No Potential".
I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever
Originally posted by jrscott Originally posted by MX13 The odds of us EVER seeing a non-level based MMO again are too high to calculate. It's over, and we lost. The sad thing is that we would all be MUCH happier MMO'ing now if we had never played Galaxies...
I am not convinced of this. I think it is a matter of time until somebody connects the dots and figures out the reason of SWGs eventual failure and disconnects it from the sandbox concept.
Any non-Sandbox game that comes along will have to compete with a Juggernaut in WoW, so the whole concept of not being sandbox will become taboo. I mean, why try to take on WoW? Are you insane (not you MX13, the generic "you")?
There will come a time when somebody is going to realize the only way to make money in the MMORPG market at this point is to do something that just does not exist (anymore). And that is make a working sandbox. SWG Classic was a barely working sandbox, and the potential was apparent to everybody that played it. I never heard anyone say that game had "No Potential".
All well said.
First, call me crazy all you want, the evidence is all around you
Second, I'm not saying companies won't look at it... but when you weigh the HUGE complexity of Galaxies (I mean, heck- Resouce spawning, harveting, cities, crafting, stat modding, non-combat content, etc...) I just don't think it will be tried again... it take MUCH more tallent & effort to make a SWG then to make a WoW... as a game company, which would you do?
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
Like... Look at the film industry for example. Yes, we have Carribean Pirates and Star wars, but that doesn't mean we can't have Woody Allen or jean-luc Godard. Look at the music industry - yes, we have Backstreet boys and Green Day, but that doesn't mean we cant't have Godspeed you black empreror! or I don't know... Leonard Cohen. Look at the book industry in the end. yes, ppl buy million of copies of some erotic crap with a semi-naked girl on a cover, but still there is a huge market for, say, Houellbecq.
I don't understand why then we can't have both WoW type and classic SWG type in MMO industry.
Originally posted by suske there are many mmos coming out soon (a year or so) and i can't help but think we will see a "flooding" of the market causing a crash of the mmo market. too much product, too few customers. also, what do you think of the fact that companies want to make "simple" mmos, aka wow? no real in depth games out there or coming soon, i think we have a "wow" problem.
First, WoW is not an example of a "simple MMO". DDO is an example of a simple MMO
The "WoW Effect" is very similar to what you see in the movie market. One Scary movie comes and and has success and then all of a sudden the market is flooded with copy cats. You see this as a perfect example on TV with Amercan Idel. AI is a great success and now there are 5 or 6 copies out there trying to recreate the same success.
The problem is, that if people want a game like WoW, they would just go play WoW. The gaming market is very different then the rest of the entertainment market because entertainment is one time investments. Either a block of time (watching tv) or one time purchase (buy a movie ticket).
The MMO market is different because (with the exception of Guild Wars) you are paying on a recurring basis. So, if I am paying to play WoW, why would I want to pay to play another game that does the exact same thing as WoW?
That is why I never understood the NGE. Not only is the NGE a half ARSE attempt to replicate WoW, but because it was so poorly done, why would anyone migrate to SWG when they have the same thing in WoW?
IMO, if you want to be success, you cannot do what is already being done. You need to offer an alternative, not a subsitiute. That is why I am a fan of the "sandbox" version that SWG had. However, with that I think that there needs to be some limitations on the size of that sandbox. So, in other words, you create an MMO that is smaller in scale (more controllable) but at the same time more open to the players. You offer multiple types of missions and quests, rather then just lots of the same.
Greated, these are just my opnions and I've written them down in details (SWG 2 IDEA) but I am looking for that game that gives me the diversity and freedom to be an indiviudal while at the same time gives me a structure that has a defined world.
Originally posted by Alboin I don't understand. Like... Look at the film industry for example. Yes, we have Carribean Pirates and Star wars, but that doesn't mean we can't have Woody Allen or jean-luc Godard. Look at the music industry - yes, we have Backstreet boys and Green Day, but that doesn't mean we cant't have Godspeed you black empreror! or I don't know... Leonard Cohen. Look at the book industry in the end. yes, ppl buy million of copies of some erotic crap with a semi-naked girl on a cover, but still there is a huge market for, say, Houellbecq. I don't understand why then we can't have both WoW type and classic SWG type in MMO industry.
Because of the cost/profit ratio.
Designing a game has HIGH costs... running an MMO has HIGH costs. Comparing it to a Green Day disc is apples and oranges in time/expense. Same with movies... how many successful ones would you see if it took 5 years to shoot/post/release a film?
It's all a cost/profit ratio.
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Originally posted by Shayde Originally posted by Alboin I don't understand. Like... Look at the film industry for example. Yes, we have Carribean Pirates and Star wars, but that doesn't mean we can't have Woody Allen or jean-luc Godard. Look at the music industry - yes, we have Backstreet boys and Green Day, but that doesn't mean we cant't have Godspeed you black empreror! or I don't know... Leonard Cohen. Look at the book industry in the end. yes, ppl buy million of copies of some erotic crap with a semi-naked girl on a cover, but still there is a huge market for, say, Houellbecq. I don't understand why then we can't have both WoW type and classic SWG type in MMO industry.
Because of the cost/profit ratio.
Designing a game has HIGH costs... running an MMO has HIGH costs. Comparing it to a Green Day disc is apples and oranges in time/expense. Same with movies... how many successful ones would you see if it took 5 years to shoot/post/release a film?
It's all a cost/profit ratio.
Exactly. SWG was one of the most advanced, expansive & system detailed MMO in history (although there are a few that are close). Would a company rather churn out a money maker in 2 years, or develop and continue to develop an extreamlt difficult game to design?
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
Originally posted by MX13 Originally posted by Shayde Originally posted by Alboin I don't understand. Like... Look at the film industry for example. Yes, we have Carribean Pirates and Star wars, but that doesn't mean we can't have Woody Allen or jean-luc Godard. Look at the music industry - yes, we have Backstreet boys and Green Day, but that doesn't mean we cant't have Godspeed you black empreror! or I don't know... Leonard Cohen. Look at the book industry in the end. yes, ppl buy million of copies of some erotic crap with a semi-naked girl on a cover, but still there is a huge market for, say, Houellbecq. I don't understand why then we can't have both WoW type and classic SWG type in MMO industry.
Because of the cost/profit ratio.
Designing a game has HIGH costs... running an MMO has HIGH costs. Comparing it to a Green Day disc is apples and oranges in time/expense. Same with movies... how many successful ones would you see if it took 5 years to shoot/post/release a film?
It's all a cost/profit ratio.
Exactly. SWG was one of the most advanced, expansive & system detailed MMO in history (although there are a few that are close). Would a company rather churn out a money maker in 2 years, or develop and continue to develop an extreamlt difficult game to design?
As long as a majority of people buy , The for dummies versions of MMORPGS . They will be in the foreground of development .
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by maxanto Originally posted by suske there are many mmos coming out soon (a year or so) and i can't help but think we will see a "flooding" of the market causing a crash of the mmo market. too much product, too few customers. also, what do you think of the fact that companies want to make "simple" mmos, aka wow? no real in depth games out there or coming soon, i think we have a "wow" problem.
Is this really a thought in your head? A crash? WoW has wot over 500k people playing? Thats juust one game. What about all the SOE games, how many people play them?
Now think about technology. More and more people are getting broadband connectiuosn at home. Cable companies, dsl providers, computer hardware manufactors are all booming with sales. Technology is sky rocketing faster than ANY time in history? Yet you see a "crash" comming?
Now lets go deeper. 10 years ago what wwere MMo's like? What about their player base? Slim to none. Whne was UO put out, that was the first real MMO right? How many people played that? 500k?
I don't think you are looking at the big picture mate. If I were you instead of seeing doom and gloom I would talk to your investment broker and put my money in with htis market, because I see the exact opposite you do. I think MMO's are gonna take over the world of gaming.
Even Microsoft agrees with the idea of subscription services. Yea I have to disagree.
Actually, I think they just capped 6 MILLION players which is roughly the entire population of my country Denmark, lol.
Originally posted by Rekrul Originally posted by maxanto
Is this really a thought in your head? A crash? WoW has wot over 500k people playing? Thats juust one game. What about all the SOE games, how many people play them?
Now think about technology. More and more people are getting broadband connectiuosn at home. Cable companies, dsl providers, computer hardware manufactors are all booming with sales. Technology is sky rocketing faster than ANY time in history? Yet you see a "crash" comming?
Now lets go deeper. 10 years ago what wwere MMo's like? What about their player base? Slim to none. Whne was UO put out, that was the first real MMO right? How many people played that? 500k?
I don't think you are looking at the big picture mate. If I were you instead of seeing doom and gloom I would talk to your investment broker and put my money in with htis market, because I see the exact opposite you do. I think MMO's are gonna take over the world of gaming.
Even Microsoft agrees with the idea of subscription services. Yea I have to disagree.
On the contrary, the only thing I'm looking at is the big picture.
Do you know, that the global online gambling market is 3-5 times bigger than world MMO market? And that one is played with real money.
Or the fact, that asian markets do not tolerate per-user subscriptions anymore?
And also the fact, that western markets are miniscule compared to the Asian, which get to direct the future of online gaming?
That 500k concurrent users is the norm for Asian-based games? Subscription free.
Remember, 2/3 of WoW subscriptions are currently based in Asia, pre-dominantly China. That is the market they need to cater to.
The one and only thing I'm looking at is the big picture.
Hehe, there's nothing like a fist of facts in the face to vanquish one's verbal opponent. Well done
Originally posted by Shayde Originally posted by Alboin I don't understand. Like... Look at the film industry for example. Yes, we have Carribean Pirates and Star wars, but that doesn't mean we can't have Woody Allen or jean-luc Godard. Look at the music industry - yes, we have Backstreet boys and Green Day, but that doesn't mean we cant't have Godspeed you black empreror! or I don't know... Leonard Cohen. Look at the book industry in the end. yes, ppl buy million of copies of some erotic crap with a semi-naked girl on a cover, but still there is a huge market for, say, Houellbecq. I don't understand why then we can't have both WoW type and classic SWG type in MMO industry.
Because of the cost/profit ratio.
Designing a game has HIGH costs... running an MMO has HIGH costs. Comparing it to a Green Day disc is apples and oranges in time/expense. Same with movies... how many successful ones would you see if it took 5 years to shoot/post/release a film?
It's all a cost/profit ratio.
Very true. A good annolgy that I like is comparing the two movies: Waterworld & Blair Witch. Waterworld raked in over $450m while Blair Witch raked in al ittle over $100m. The different is that Waterworld cost over 500m to make and market while Blair Witch cost under $2m total.
So, Blair Withc to $2m of investment and generated $98m of profit, while Waterworld took $400m of investment and lost $50m.
One could argue that Waterworld was far more successful considering the revenue, but the bottom line is that movie companies (and any company) would take the Blair Witch deal every time.
Also, keep in mind that MMO are not like movies. With the exacption of Guild Wars, you have to pay to play. You see a movie and your done. Not the case with MMO. The problem that these games are facing is they keep trying to duplicate WoW. IMO, the bottom line is people are not going to pay for a WoW copy when they can play the original. If you are truely going to attract a playerbase, you need to offer then an alternative, not a substitute!.
Weither we like it or not, $oE has not Losing money on SWG. They have maintained over 150k subscribers for 3 years. That is about $2.25m a month ($27m a year for 3 years $81m. not include expansion or original purcases with probably are about another $80m). Servers are easy to maintian so the recurning cost for running an MMO is pretty cheap (especially with the talent they have on SWG) Based on the level of support they are throwing at the game (very low), I'm beting they are are actually doing very well.
The debate is, if they had a quality game, how much better could they have done. SWG has NEVER been about what it was or was not, but ALWAYs been about what it COULD HAVE BEEN!
In this case, the "oppertunity" cost of poor development killed the HUGE potential that this game had. SWG could have made WoW look like DDO if it would have received just average quality attention.
Comments
The gaming industry doesn't want to give us another SWG, true, but I disagree with your analysis of why. Do you really believe there are any game development companies out there salivating at the chance to make a SWG MMO after the general playerbase rebellion to both the CU and NGE, however justified that rebellion was? Corporate execs (you know, the people who know absolutely nothing about game design and coding challenges) are the ones who would jump at the chance to work on a SW IP MMO product, but the people who know the game history themselves (the actual developers) would at best be reluctant. SWG players (in particular the pre-NGE variety, the NGE players may actually be the opposite in that just about any shiny trinket pleases them) have a tremendous reputation as a fickle group that is very difficult if not impossible to please. We have organized mass in-game protests, some even with the intention of causing as much game distrubance as possible. We have been incredibly vocal all over the internet decrying both $OE and LEC. Just last week, deservedly or otherwise, the majority of this forum savaged the only group of people (ducklings) who are currently trying to work on a game for that very group. There is a consensus on what we generally want in a game - relatively bug-free, sandbox, Star Wars. But after that the disagreement begins - some want Jedi, some don't, some want Alpha class, some don't, etc.
If SWG had been a wildly successful game, everyone would be copying it regardless of age/timeliness concerns. Success begets imitation.
And this -->
<-- is a white blob, topped by a yellow blob, with some non-descript black markings in the middle.
Yes I do, but let me clarify: Do they want to make a SW MMO? Absolutly. Do they want to make a game with the depth & openness of SWG? No. You're right, they ALL want to make a SW MMO, but no a Galaxies style MMO...
I believe that they view the complexity of a SWG style game and don't think it's worth it. SWG (Pre-CU of course) made it's own content, you didn't need expansions, or even good content additions (as proven by SOE).
Technically you're right, and that's the best kind of right... hehe
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
I am not convinced of this. I think it is a matter of time until somebody connects the dots and figures out the reason of SWGs eventual failure and disconnects it from the sandbox concept.
Any non-Sandbox game that comes along will have to compete with a Juggernaut in WoW, so the whole concept of not being sandbox will become taboo. I mean, why try to take on WoW? Are you insane (not you MX13, the generic "you")?
There will come a time when somebody is going to realize the only way to make money in the MMORPG market at this point is to do something that just does not exist (anymore). And that is make a working sandbox. SWG Classic was a barely working sandbox, and the potential was apparent to everybody that played it. I never heard anyone say that game had "No Potential".
I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever
I am not convinced of this. I think it is a matter of time until somebody connects the dots and figures out the reason of SWGs eventual failure and disconnects it from the sandbox concept.
Any non-Sandbox game that comes along will have to compete with a Juggernaut in WoW, so the whole concept of not being sandbox will become taboo. I mean, why try to take on WoW? Are you insane (not you MX13, the generic "you")?
There will come a time when somebody is going to realize the only way to make money in the MMORPG market at this point is to do something that just does not exist (anymore). And that is make a working sandbox. SWG Classic was a barely working sandbox, and the potential was apparent to everybody that played it. I never heard anyone say that game had "No Potential".
All well said.
First, call me crazy all you want, the evidence is all around you
Second, I'm not saying companies won't look at it... but when you weigh the HUGE complexity of Galaxies (I mean, heck- Resouce spawning, harveting, cities, crafting, stat modding, non-combat content, etc...) I just don't think it will be tried again... it take MUCH more tallent & effort to make a SWG then to make a WoW... as a game company, which would you do?
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
I don't understand.
Like... Look at the film industry for example. Yes, we have Carribean Pirates and Star wars, but that doesn't mean we can't have Woody Allen or jean-luc Godard. Look at the music industry - yes, we have Backstreet boys and Green Day, but that doesn't mean we cant't have Godspeed you black empreror! or I don't know... Leonard Cohen. Look at the book industry in the end. yes, ppl buy million of copies of some erotic crap with a semi-naked girl on a cover, but still there is a huge market for, say, Houellbecq.
I don't understand why then we can't have both WoW type and classic SWG type in MMO industry.
First, WoW is not an example of a "simple MMO". DDO is an example of a simple MMO
The "WoW Effect" is very similar to what you see in the movie market. One Scary movie comes and and has success and then all of a sudden the market is flooded with copy cats. You see this as a perfect example on TV with Amercan Idel. AI is a great success and now there are 5 or 6 copies out there trying to recreate the same success.
The problem is, that if people want a game like WoW, they would just go play WoW. The gaming market is very different then the rest of the entertainment market because entertainment is one time investments. Either a block of time (watching tv) or one time purchase (buy a movie ticket).
The MMO market is different because (with the exception of Guild Wars) you are paying on a recurring basis. So, if I am paying to play WoW, why would I want to pay to play another game that does the exact same thing as WoW?
That is why I never understood the NGE. Not only is the NGE a half ARSE attempt to replicate WoW, but because it was so poorly done, why would anyone migrate to SWG when they have the same thing in WoW?
IMO, if you want to be success, you cannot do what is already being done. You need to offer an alternative, not a subsitiute. That is why I am a fan of the "sandbox" version that SWG had. However, with that I think that there needs to be some limitations on the size of that sandbox. So, in other words, you create an MMO that is smaller in scale (more controllable) but at the same time more open to the players. You offer multiple types of missions and quests, rather then just lots of the same.
Greated, these are just my opnions and I've written them down in details (SWG 2 IDEA) but I am looking for that game that gives me the diversity and freedom to be an indiviudal while at the same time gives me a structure that has a defined world.
Concept for SWG 2
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/90081
Designing a game has HIGH costs... running an MMO has HIGH costs. Comparing it to a Green Day disc is apples and oranges in time/expense. Same with movies... how many successful ones would you see if it took 5 years to shoot/post/release a film?
It's all a cost/profit ratio.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Designing a game has HIGH costs... running an MMO has HIGH costs. Comparing it to a Green Day disc is apples and oranges in time/expense. Same with movies... how many successful ones would you see if it took 5 years to shoot/post/release a film?
It's all a cost/profit ratio.
Exactly. SWG was one of the most advanced, expansive & system detailed MMO in history (although there are a few that are close). Would a company rather churn out a money maker in 2 years, or develop and continue to develop an extreamlt difficult game to design?
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
Designing a game has HIGH costs... running an MMO has HIGH costs. Comparing it to a Green Day disc is apples and oranges in time/expense. Same with movies... how many successful ones would you see if it took 5 years to shoot/post/release a film?
It's all a cost/profit ratio.
Exactly. SWG was one of the most advanced, expansive & system detailed MMO in history (although there are a few that are close). Would a company rather churn out a money maker in 2 years, or develop and continue to develop an extreamlt difficult game to design?
As long as a majority of people buy , The for dummies versions of MMORPGS . They will be in the foreground of development .
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Now think about technology. More and more people are getting broadband connectiuosn at home. Cable companies, dsl providers, computer hardware manufactors are all booming with sales. Technology is sky rocketing faster than ANY time in history? Yet you see a "crash" comming?
Now lets go deeper. 10 years ago what wwere MMo's like? What about their player base? Slim to none. Whne was UO put out, that was the first real MMO right? How many people played that? 500k?
I don't think you are looking at the big picture mate. If I were you instead of seeing doom and gloom I would talk to your investment broker and put my money in with htis market, because I see the exact opposite you do. I think MMO's are gonna take over the world of gaming.
Even Microsoft agrees with the idea of subscription services. Yea I have to disagree.
Actually, I think they just capped 6 MILLION players which is roughly the entire population of my country Denmark, lol.
Now think about technology. More and more people are getting broadband connectiuosn at home. Cable companies, dsl providers, computer hardware manufactors are all booming with sales. Technology is sky rocketing faster than ANY time in history? Yet you see a "crash" comming?
Now lets go deeper. 10 years ago what wwere MMo's like? What about their player base? Slim to none. Whne was UO put out, that was the first real MMO right? How many people played that? 500k?
I don't think you are looking at the big picture mate. If I were you instead of seeing doom and gloom I would talk to your investment broker and put my money in with htis market, because I see the exact opposite you do. I think MMO's are gonna take over the world of gaming.
Even Microsoft agrees with the idea of subscription services. Yea I have to disagree.
On the contrary, the only thing I'm looking at is the big picture.
Do you know, that the global online gambling market is 3-5 times bigger than world MMO market? And that one is played with real money.
Or the fact, that asian markets do not tolerate per-user subscriptions anymore?
And also the fact, that western markets are miniscule compared to the Asian, which get to direct the future of online gaming?
That 500k concurrent users is the norm for Asian-based games? Subscription free.
Remember, 2/3 of WoW subscriptions are currently based in Asia, pre-dominantly China. That is the market they need to cater to.
The one and only thing I'm looking at is the big picture.
Hehe, there's nothing like a fist of facts in the face to vanquish one's verbal opponent. Well done
Designing a game has HIGH costs... running an MMO has HIGH costs. Comparing it to a Green Day disc is apples and oranges in time/expense. Same with movies... how many successful ones would you see if it took 5 years to shoot/post/release a film?
It's all a cost/profit ratio.
Very true. A good annolgy that I like is comparing the two movies: Waterworld & Blair Witch. Waterworld raked in over $450m while Blair Witch raked in al ittle over $100m. The different is that Waterworld cost over 500m to make and market while Blair Witch cost under $2m total.
So, Blair Withc to $2m of investment and generated $98m of profit, while Waterworld took $400m of investment and lost $50m.
One could argue that Waterworld was far more successful considering the revenue, but the bottom line is that movie companies (and any company) would take the Blair Witch deal every time.
Also, keep in mind that MMO are not like movies. With the exacption of Guild Wars, you have to pay to play. You see a movie and your done. Not the case with MMO. The problem that these games are facing is they keep trying to duplicate WoW. IMO, the bottom line is people are not going to pay for a WoW copy when they can play the original. If you are truely going to attract a playerbase, you need to offer then an alternative, not a substitute!.
Weither we like it or not, $oE has not Losing money on SWG. They have maintained over 150k subscribers for 3 years. That is about $2.25m a month ($27m a year for 3 years $81m. not include expansion or original purcases with probably are about another $80m). Servers are easy to maintian so the recurning cost for running an MMO is pretty cheap (especially with the talent they have on SWG) Based on the level of support they are throwing at the game (very low), I'm beting they are are actually doing very well.
The debate is, if they had a quality game, how much better could they have done. SWG has NEVER been about what it was or was not, but ALWAYs been about what it COULD HAVE BEEN!
In this case, the "oppertunity" cost of poor development killed the HUGE potential that this game had. SWG could have made WoW look like DDO if it would have received just average quality attention.
Concept for SWG 2
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/90081
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