Originally posted by MX13 Originally posted by Starnick From a commando's viewpoint, which was mine, the CU was a failure. For a year we were told the CURB would make commando into what it always should've been like. Post-CU, our AoE was broken for 8 months (main feature of the profession since we had no specials) and our weapons were really underpowered without real specials. And worse, we were...right under our very noses...changed from a heavy damage profession to a "utility-only profession". Maybe you're right that it wasn't given a chance, as commandos were finally getting specials the publish before the NGE and things were looking up to be a damage dealer again. But honestly? I liked commando better pre-CU and ironically, post-NGE. For me the best part of the NGE was getting commando to where we always wanted it after 3 years. The CURB's greatest failing was that it kept changing, it didn't remain consistent and ultimately the final product was something not many folks (including myself) was worth for all that development for a year. Originally it set out to improve the pre-CU system, not change it...if that only stayed the course we might've had a much better pre-CU game. To me, the CU had good intentions, and some ok ways to balance things out (albiet simple...i miss pre-CU where difficulty was based on HAM and % resists...it didn't feel like a game, even though there were very well hidden levels). Ironically it was the opposite of the NGE...a year to develop in secret with a bad start; the NGE apparently 4 or so months (estimating from some comments Freeman once said) and was on live in the blink of an eye with a bad start.
I can't argue with a thing you've said. Having always had a Commando until the NGE, I can relate.
That said, the true tragedy is this: We were once EXCITED about the CU.
Not many remeber that, but when the original CU was coming up the entire community was looking forward to it, with a bit of a nervous flutter. When the Original CU tests started (the CU we never got, before it was scraped for the CU we did get) a LOT of positive feedback came to the community from testers. None thought it was perfect, but it address the main concerns for the most part.
If we were all to list out top 20 issues with Pre-CU, it's safe to say that the top 10 would probably listed in 95% of our lists. The solutions for those issues weren't simple, but there were potential solutions.
Instead of pushing forward with the original CU they revamped it into the CU we did get, a flashier attempt to put a "fresh" WoW bling to the game IMO. The CU was delayed for sometime as a result, and when it was released, it was EXTEAMLY buggy, hence the 6 weeks of double XP and the Village People EXPLOSION. Does anyone remember how many rounds of respecs we got, I don't? It was insane.
Sadly, if they would have put the same effort into refining the original CU SWG would not be where it is today... a Shadow of what it once was...
I just can't believe they made the same mistakes twice... just wow...
Man I’ve made tons of threads about this mysterious CU that never was. What the hell happened? I heard really good things about it. then they delayed it then we ended up with the CU we got. They really blew it. Like I said I could think of like 10 big things people complained about in those days, the NGE has brought us hundreds. If any of you devs are reading these forums WTH happened? You guys so blew it. We could have built at least the second best MMO together but you guys completely blew it!
Originally posted by Starnick Originally posted by MX13 Originally posted by Starnick From a commando's viewpoint, which was mine, the CU was a failure. For a year we were told the CURB would make commando into what it always should've been like. Post-CU, our AoE was broken for 8 months (main feature of the profession since we had no specials) and our weapons were really underpowered without real specials. And worse, we were...right under our very noses...changed from a heavy damage profession to a "utility-only profession". Maybe you're right that it wasn't given a chance, as commandos were finally getting specials the publish before the NGE and things were looking up to be a damage dealer again. But honestly? I liked commando better pre-CU and ironically, post-NGE. For me the best part of the NGE was getting commando to where we always wanted it after 3 years. The CURB's greatest failing was that it kept changing, it didn't remain consistent and ultimately the final product was something not many folks (including myself) was worth for all that development for a year. Originally it set out to improve the pre-CU system, not change it...if that only stayed the course we might've had a much better pre-CU game. To me, the CU had good intentions, and some ok ways to balance things out (albiet simple...i miss pre-CU where difficulty was based on HAM and % resists...it didn't feel like a game, even though there were very well hidden levels). Ironically it was the opposite of the NGE...a year to develop in secret with a bad start; the NGE apparently 4 or so months (estimating from some comments Freeman once said) and was on live in the blink of an eye with a bad start.
I can't argue with a thing you've said. Having always had a Commando until the NGE, I can relate.
That said, the true tragedy is this: We were once EXCITED about the CU.
Not many remeber that, but when the original CU was coming up the entire community was looking forward to it, with a bit of a nervous flutter. When the Original CU tests started (the CU we never got, before it was scraped for the CU we did get) a LOT of positive feedback came to the community from testers. None thought it was perfect, but it address the main concerns for the most part.
If we were all to list out top 20 issues with Pre-CU, it's safe to say that the top 10 would probably listed in 95% of our lists. The solutions for those issues weren't simple, but there were potential solutions.
Instead of pushing forward with the original CU they revamped it into the CU we did get, a flashier attempt to put a "fresh" WoW bling to the game IMO. The CU was delayed for sometime as a result, and when it was released, it was EXTEAMLY buggy, hence the 6 weeks of double XP and the Village People EXPLOSION. Does anyone remember how many rounds of respecs we got, I don't? It was insane.
Sadly, if they would have put the same effort into refining the original CU SWG would not be where it is today... a Shadow of what it once was...
I just can't believe they made the same mistakes twice... just wow...
Yeah, before the CU beta we were excited. Got even more excited in the CU Alpha when we saw the first round of documents. Anyone remember how weapons were suppoused to have 1-3 types of changeable modes? It looked to have been a more balanced yet a deep game system overall.
Sadly the CU Alpha never got real testing, we just got to look at two sets of documents (if I remember right) then beta began, lasting like a month...
I remember reading about Buffs being changed to Stim Buffs that boosted your Regen, not your hrealth... that sounded sweet... wow, what a waste...
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
Originally posted by KenshuAni Originally posted by Starnick
From a commando's viewpoint, which was mine, the CU was a failure. For a year we were told the CURB would make commando into what it always should've been like. Post-CU, our AoE was broken for 8 months (main feature of the profession since we had no specials) and our weapons were really underpowered without real specials. And worse, we were...right under our very noses...changed from a heavy damage profession to a "utility-only profession". Maybe you're right that it wasn't given a chance, as commandos were finally getting specials the publish before the NGE and things were looking up to be a damage dealer again. But honestly? I liked commando better pre-CU and ironically, post-NGE. For me the best part of the NGE was getting commando to where we always wanted it after 3 years. The CURB's greatest failing was that it kept changing, it didn't remain consistent and ultimately the final product was something not many folks (including myself) was worth for all that development for a year. Originally it set out to improve the pre-CU system, not change it...if that only stayed the course we might've had a much better pre-CU game. To me, the CU had good intentions, and some ok ways to balance things out (albiet simple...i miss pre-CU where difficulty was based on HAM and % resists...it didn't feel like a game, even though there were very well hidden levels). Ironically it was the opposite of the NGE...a year to develop in secret with a bad start; the NGE apparently 4 or so months (estimating from some comments Freeman once said) and was on live in the blink of an eye with a bad start.
Heh. Just to nitpick a little. The CU only existed for 7 months (April to November) so your AoE attacks couldn't have been broken for 8 months post-CU (Edit: Unless you are referring to time spent on Test Center, which I don't consider as being official)
I do remember the AoE weapons working when I picked up commando in the CU, but I don't remember exactly when I did that but it was in the last half of the CU. I also remember that I hated those weapons in PvE because it was a great way to draw in all sorts of hate from creatures.
I see your point though. Although I still don't think that the CU was a failure, just that it wasn't given a chance to be any good. If that 4 months is correct, then the CU was truly scrapped after only 3 months.
Doh you're right!
I ment eight PUBLISHES. Sorry sometimes I can be stupid like that. AoE was finally fixed in Publish 24, and the CU was Publish 15. AoE kinda worked for a while during the CU beta but then broke after they tampered with it (making it limited AoE).
It wasn't until the mustufar expansion beta when commando got the AoE fix, some grenade fixes, and commando specials, although obviously you didn't need ToW to access it...but that was one of the reasons why I like Helios_SOE...he personally looked at the problem and gave some relief, and even came on TC with me a few times to make sure things were working right on a public server. Because prior to that, AoE -was- working on the development server...just not live..., a reason why they never caught it.
He was also one of the guys who later worked on the post-NGE Heavy Weapon system, and then became a lead designer a few months back.
Man I’ve made tons of threads about this mysterious CU that never was. What the hell happened? I heard really good things about it. then they delayed it then we ended up with the CU we got. They really blew it. Like I said I could think of like 10 big things people complained about in those days, the NGE has brought us hundreds. If any of you devs are reading these forums WTH happened? You guys so blew it. We could have built at least the second best MMO together but you guys completely blew it!
I would not exclude Raph being part of the original CU.
His last post was towards end of 2004, which would make sense if here were brought into the project again. His post wasn't about SWG, but at least he skimmed through the forums. Of course, by then, there would have been the conflict of wow vs. SWG, and LA's possible pressure, so it's hard to say anything.
It also fits in with some between the lines comments and the overall impression of all of this, both CU and NGE.
Raph opposed many concepts, including buffs. So I'd figure he would try to expand upon his original vision.
This is completely unsubstantiated, just a little thought from me.
What is a fact, is that the whole look-and-feel of CU was WoW clone. What NGE was supposed to be is hard to say. KOTOR? Planetside? BF2? Whatever it was, it ended up even worse than CU.
Originally posted by MX13 Originally posted by Malickiebloo Originally posted by MX13 Originally posted by Malickiebloo How the hell is his attitude offensive ? Second are only Pre-cu fanatics allowed to be sarcastic twits? You wanna call someones actions offensive then resort to flames . You hypocrites make me sick .
The feeling is Mutual... read what I wrote before acting like a DA...
Why because my responce was to your post ?
Because your reponse, as usual, is only Trolling... I didn't attack the guy, and he was attcking someone for something he didn't say... as usual, Trolling means more to you than accuracy...
Calling me a "Pre-CU fanatic" & a "hypocrite" was way off & nothing but Trolling... Trolly Mc Troll...
Thats all fine and dandy , But my point was I wasn't even talking to you .
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by Malickiebloo Originally posted by MX13 Originally posted by Malickiebloo Originally posted by MX13 Originally posted by Malickiebloo How the hell is his attitude offensive ? Second are only Pre-cu fanatics allowed to be sarcastic twits? You wanna call someones actions offensive then resort to flames . You hypocrites make me sick .
The feeling is Mutual... read what I wrote before acting like a DA...
Why because my responce was to your post ?
Because your reponse, as usual, is only Trolling... I didn't attack the guy, and he was attcking someone for something he didn't say... as usual, Trolling means more to you than accuracy...
Calling me a "Pre-CU fanatic" & a "hypocrite" was way off & nothing but Trolling... Trolly Mc Troll...
Thats all fine and dandy , But my point was I wasn't even talking to you .
It doesn't change the fact that everything you accused me of, you turned around and did to someone else.
Originally posted by Kryogenic Originally posted by Malickiebloo Originally posted by MX13 Originally posted by Malickiebloo Originally posted by MX13 Originally posted by Malickiebloo How the hell is his attitude offensive ? Second are only Pre-cu fanatics allowed to be sarcastic twits? You wanna call someones actions offensive then resort to flames . You hypocrites make me sick .
The feeling is Mutual... read what I wrote before acting like a DA...
Why because my responce was to your post ?
Because your reponse, as usual, is only Trolling... I didn't attack the guy, and he was attcking someone for something he didn't say... as usual, Trolling means more to you than accuracy...
Calling me a "Pre-CU fanatic" & a "hypocrite" was way off & nothing but Trolling... Trolly Mc Troll...
Thats all fine and dandy , But my point was I wasn't even talking to you .
It doesn't change the fact that everything you accused me of, you turned around and did to someone else.
So now you're a Troll AND a hypocrite.
So you wanna be the pot or the kettle?
Really, Where did I tell someone they have the mentality of a 5 year old ? Take your kettles and pots and shove em .
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I ment eight PUBLISHES. Sorry sometimes I can be stupid like that. AoE was finally fixed in Publish 24, and the CU was Publish 15. AoE kinda worked for a while during the CU beta but then broke after they tampered with it (making it limited AoE).
It wasn't until the mustufar expansion beta when commando got the AoE fix, some grenade fixes, and commando specials, although obviously you didn't need ToW to access it...but that was one of the reasons why I like Helios_SOE...he personally looked at the problem and gave some relief, and even came on TC with me a few times to make sure things were working right on a public server. Because prior to that, AoE -was- working on the development server...just not live..., a reason why they never caught it.
He was also one of the guys who later worked on the post-NGE Heavy Weapon system, and then became a lead designer a few months back.
STOP BEING A NICE GUY...How can we hate you and your kind if you're halfway decent to others? Please don't destroy our view of the Senators, it's much easier to lump you in a pile and pour gas on you all... think of the Pre-CU Fanbois (/pointsAtSelf) that HATE you!!! AND thier KITTENS!!!!
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
Originally posted by MX13 Originally posted by Starnick Doh you're right!
I ment eight PUBLISHES. Sorry sometimes I can be stupid like that. AoE was finally fixed in Publish 24, and the CU was Publish 15. AoE kinda worked for a while during the CU beta but then broke after they tampered with it (making it limited AoE).
It wasn't until the mustufar expansion beta when commando got the AoE fix, some grenade fixes, and commando specials, although obviously you didn't need ToW to access it...but that was one of the reasons why I like Helios_SOE...he personally looked at the problem and gave some relief, and even came on TC with me a few times to make sure things were working right on a public server. Because prior to that, AoE -was- working on the development server...just not live..., a reason why they never caught it.
He was also one of the guys who later worked on the post-NGE Heavy Weapon system, and then became a lead designer a few months back.
STOP BEING A NICE GUY...How can we hate you and your kind if you're halfway decent to others? Please don't destroy our view of the Senators, it's much easier to lump you in a pile and pour gas on you all... think of the Pre-CU Fanbois (/pointsAtSelf) that HATE you!!! AND thier KITTENS!!!!
LOL
Well, say something bad about commando or call a commando nerf and I may not be such a nice guy.... :P
As far as real verbal anger/abuse goes, it takes quite a lot for me to really "go commando" on someone, and it only really has happened a few times...(and I'll admit, to a red-name once...but it wasn't insults, just a lot of frustration mind you)
I've reviewed this thread, and I think the conversation is worth salvaging. However, the flaming and trolling are going to have to stop. The trading of insults is going to have to stop if this thread is going to continue.
If the flaming doesn't stop, we will be forced to hand out bans.
This thread got busy. Last I checked, earlier today this thread was at 7 pages. Starnick, you've made some good points and have been very diplomatic. But where you went wrong was saying good things about Helios. He may have been okay as a developer working with a specific part of combat, but as a lead developer he has failed miserably. He has clearly shown he doesn't understand anything besides "kill, loot, repeat." As long as he's in charge, there's no hope for SWG to be anything but a really crappy action game with some SW themes shoved down your throat that you have to pay a monthly fee for.
I do remember a lot about the original CU. I saw a lot of the docs for it and it sounded like it would be great. Remember the HAM in CU? The white was gone. There were two shades of red, green, and blue. That was there because the original CU was going to have a HAM change where there was a damage part and an "energy" part. Meaning that the HAM costs for specials were separate from damage to HAM. There were two shades of each to show this. That went out the window to try to copy WoW.
SWG Tempest: Cardo Dycen RIP Eve: Cardoh Dycen I support random drug testing for all SOE employees
Originally posted by JediGeek This thread got busy. Last I checked, earlier today this thread was at 7 pages. Starnick, you've made some good points and have been very diplomatic. But where you went wrong was saying good things about Helios. He may have been okay as a developer working with a specific part of combat, but as a lead developer he has failed miserably. He has clearly shown he doesn't understand anything besides "kill, loot, repeat." As long as he's in charge, there's no hope for SWG to be anything but a really crappy action game with some SW themes shoved down your throat that you have to pay a monthly fee for.
I do remember a lot about the original CU. I saw a lot of the docs for it and it sounded like it would be great. Remember the HAM in CU? The white was gone. There were two shades of red, green, and blue. That was there because the original CU was going to have a HAM change where there was a damage part and an "energy" part. Meaning that the HAM costs for specials were separate from damage to HAM. There were two shades of each to show this. That went out the window to try to copy WoW.
First of all - thanks stradden, despite some of the offshooting trolling/flaming I've grown fond of this thread
Well, I do praise him...but I'll also remind you that he did work on commando during the CU and went "missing" after our AoE started breaking...never finished us. But it may very well have been because he was pulled off commando. Also, recently he posted about how the game is going more into a "game" orientation rather than "sandbox" type of gameplay...I strongly disagree that the sandbox should be abandoned, and that a balance needs to be met -
example: because of the "game" orientation...newbies after finishing the legacy don't know what else to do...linear gameplay only goes so far and a sandbox although may be a bit complex, it offers a lot of depth and outlets for creativity/expression if given the right tools.
Anyways getting back to him becoming a lead designer...the game -is- better than it was 8 months ago when he wasnt a lead designer right and the NGE launched? Maybe its because they hired some good devs (like Hanse) who had strong impact. Whether or not he had an impact on it, or not...its something to wonder. The 7 months after the CU, some things were looking up...but others (like balance...we were getting back to FOTMs and constant flip flopping of development to fix balance problems) were spiraling out of control fast.
The NGE launch was the epitome of the "crap actiony" game and a low-point for most of the playerbase, now there's bit more of a hope in my opinion. But hey, we're all entitled to our opinions.
I've reviewed this thread, and I think the conversation is worth salvaging. However, the flaming and trolling are going to have to stop. The trading of insults is going to have to stop if this thread is going to continue.
If the flaming doesn't stop, we will be forced to hand out bans.
example: because of the "game" orientation...newbies after finishing the legacy don't know what else to do...linear gameplay only goes so far and a sandbox although may be a bit complex, it offers a lot of depth and outlets for creativity/expression if given the right tools.
I've reviewed this thread, and I think the conversation is worth salvaging. However, the flaming and trolling are going to have to stop. The trading of insults is going to have to stop if this thread is going to continue.
If the flaming doesn't stop, we will be forced to hand out bans.
Cheers Jon "Stradden" Wood, Community Manager
TY
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
Originally posted by Starnick Originally posted by JediGeek This thread got busy. Last I checked, earlier today this thread was at 7 pages. Starnick, you've made some good points and have been very diplomatic. But where you went wrong was saying good things about Helios. He may have been okay as a developer working with a specific part of combat, but as a lead developer he has failed miserably. He has clearly shown he doesn't understand anything besides "kill, loot, repeat." As long as he's in charge, there's no hope for SWG to be anything but a really crappy action game with some SW themes shoved down your throat that you have to pay a monthly fee for.
I do remember a lot about the original CU. I saw a lot of the docs for it and it sounded like it would be great. Remember the HAM in CU? The white was gone. There were two shades of red, green, and blue. That was there because the original CU was going to have a HAM change where there was a damage part and an "energy" part. Meaning that the HAM costs for specials were separate from damage to HAM. There were two shades of each to show this. That went out the window to try to copy WoW.
First of all - thanks stradden, despite some of the offshooting trolling/flaming I've grown fond of this thread
Well, I do praise him...but I'll also remind you that he did work on commando during the CU and went "missing" after our AoE started breaking...never finished us. But it may very well have been because he was pulled off commando. Also, recently he posted about how the game is going more into a "game" orientation rather than "sandbox" type of gameplay...I strongly disagree that the sandbox should be abandoned, and that a balance needs to be met -
example: because of the "game" orientation...newbies after finishing the legacy don't know what else to do...linear gameplay only goes so far and a sandbox although may be a bit complex, it offers a lot of depth and outlets for creativity/expression if given the right tools.
Anyways getting back to him becoming a lead designer...the game -is- better than it was 8 months ago when he wasnt a lead designer right and the NGE launched? Maybe its because they hired some good devs (like Hanse) who had strong impact. Whether or not he had an impact on it, or not...its something to wonder. The 7 months after the CU, some things were looking up...but others (like balance...we were getting back to FOTMs and constant flip flopping of development to fix balance problems) were spiraling out of control fast.
The NGE launch was the epitome of the "crap actiony" game and a low-point for most of the playerbase, now there's bit more of a hope in my opinion. But hey, we're all entitled to our opinions.
Good addition.
Many forget that Helios used to be one of the favorite Dev's... before the dark times... before the NGE...
He did some great work, pulled some all nighters & even chatted it up. Back then we loved his arogant attitude, afterall, he was just a designer fight the system, or some crap like that. But once he became LD, things have not gotten better IMO. Sure, work has been done, but look at the dEsign Quality. The Recent Expertise issues are a prime example of horrible design. He may not have done the work, bet he is responsable for it.
That said, I don't believe SWG is in any better shape, and the NGE may have cured FOTM, but at what cost? Dividing Professions (like Commando) from Skills (like Pistols) and giving us enough Professions points to Master one Profession, and enough Skill Points to Master 2.5 Skills would have laid the ground work for balancing in a way that kept diversity, and that's just one idea.
What have we sacrificed for balance? Individuality? That and more... the Combat systems are reverting, the only thing that's not coming back is the feeling of making your own way in a SW Universe. You know the feeling StarNick. That's what really kept me in Galaxies, and made it better than any other game I've played... The SW Universe (for all it's danger, openness & flaws) was there for you to make (and remake) your story in. We've traded that in for buying your next profession when you're bored, and grinding levels just to PVP for content & get ganked by BH teams...
The NGE is not the SW Universe... Pre-CU with a bit of work, heck even the CU (which at the end with ToOW was finally coming together), that's the universe of SW...
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
Originally posted by MX13 Originally posted by Starnick Originally posted by JediGeek This thread got busy. Last I checked, earlier today this thread was at 7 pages. Starnick, you've made some good points and have been very diplomatic. But where you went wrong was saying good things about Helios. He may have been okay as a developer working with a specific part of combat, but as a lead developer he has failed miserably. He has clearly shown he doesn't understand anything besides "kill, loot, repeat." As long as he's in charge, there's no hope for SWG to be anything but a really crappy action game with some SW themes shoved down your throat that you have to pay a monthly fee for.
I do remember a lot about the original CU. I saw a lot of the docs for it and it sounded like it would be great. Remember the HAM in CU? The white was gone. There were two shades of red, green, and blue. That was there because the original CU was going to have a HAM change where there was a damage part and an "energy" part. Meaning that the HAM costs for specials were separate from damage to HAM. There were two shades of each to show this. That went out the window to try to copy WoW.
First of all - thanks stradden, despite some of the offshooting trolling/flaming I've grown fond of this thread
Well, I do praise him...but I'll also remind you that he did work on commando during the CU and went "missing" after our AoE started breaking...never finished us. But it may very well have been because he was pulled off commando. Also, recently he posted about how the game is going more into a "game" orientation rather than "sandbox" type of gameplay...I strongly disagree that the sandbox should be abandoned, and that a balance needs to be met -
example: because of the "game" orientation...newbies after finishing the legacy don't know what else to do...linear gameplay only goes so far and a sandbox although may be a bit complex, it offers a lot of depth and outlets for creativity/expression if given the right tools.
Anyways getting back to him becoming a lead designer...the game -is- better than it was 8 months ago when he wasnt a lead designer right and the NGE launched? Maybe its because they hired some good devs (like Hanse) who had strong impact. Whether or not he had an impact on it, or not...its something to wonder. The 7 months after the CU, some things were looking up...but others (like balance...we were getting back to FOTMs and constant flip flopping of development to fix balance problems) were spiraling out of control fast.
The NGE launch was the epitome of the "crap actiony" game and a low-point for most of the playerbase, now there's bit more of a hope in my opinion. But hey, we're all entitled to our opinions.
Good addition.
Many forget that Helios used to be one of the favorite Dev's... before the dark times... before the NGE...
He did some great work, pulled some all nighters & even chatted it up. Back then we loved his arogant attitude, afterall, he was just a designer fight the system, or some crap like that. But once he became LD, things have not gotten better IMO. Sure, work has been done, but look at the dEsign Quality. The Recent Expertise issues are a prime example of horrible design. He may not have done the work, bet he is responsable for it.
That said, I don't believe SWG is in any better shape, and the NGE may have cured FOTM, but at what cost? Dividing Professions (like Commando) from Skills (like Pistols) and giving us enough Professions points to Master one Profession, and enough Skill Points to Master 2.5 Skills would have laid the ground work for balancing in a way that kept diversity, and that's just one idea.
What have we sacrificed for balance? Individuality? That and more... the Combat systems are reverting, the only thing that's not coming back is the feeling of making your own way in a SW Universe. You know the feeling StarNick. That's what really kept me in Galaxies, and made it better than any other game I've played... The SW Universe (for all it's danger, openness & flaws) was there for you to make (and remake) your story in. We've traded that in for buying your next profession when you're bored, and grinding levels just to PVP for content & get ganked by BH teams...
The NGE is not the SW Universe... Pre-CU with a bit of work, heck even the CU (which at the end with ToOW was finally coming together), that's the universe of SW...
QFE! IMHO it was less a game and more an adventure, chose your own adventure if you will. Test your strengths and weaknesses against the might of the galaxy and see what happens. It was closer to an old dice RPG than any game since. Even Turbine failed at recapturing that feeling in DDO. Raph's vision guided it perfectly. Now with level based combat and movie scripted quests it's less linear and feels confining and takes away from what we enjoyed about the game. Grant's comment about how they didn't remove those linear qualities of the game is untrue. The game as in real life was a grind for some and we enjoyed it for the most part. It is not a scripted event that plays like a movie giving you the feeling of being an actor on stage being pushed along by a annoying director (CUT! here's your reward and a level)
Levels=bad idea,
(Vanive; can I take that mob yet? Crap no!!!)= knowledge based on experience and observation/ “empiric knowledge” which in turn makes a more rounded and experienced player. This admittedly isn’t for everyone but can be enjoyed by most.
(Vanive; can I take that mob? better not its 12 levels above mine)
This= less people taking risks which is opposite of the knowledge you gain based on experience which in turn makes a less rounded and less experienced player, which can kill enjoyment for most.
There needs to be a perfect balance=enjoyment for all/ quests, minus levels, but an experience gain from accomplishing the quests.
Its human nature to make decisions based on the challenges you face day to day to advance to the next. As you gain more knowledge doing challenging things you push yourself harder, and that is the reward in it’s self (no mater how much we bitch about it). Being an actor is fun and challenging at times, but not everyone wants to live a life of staged scripts and bad acting on a daily basis and call that life. I know SOE and LEC could give a crap less about the psychology and emotions behind video games, but hey! Maybe if someone took the time to delve into the psyche of people, life and games maybe they could actually build the best game of all time. Raph understands this but he’s an outside the box thinker like me and way ahead of most peoples train of thought. He is unlike 90% of the people in the gaming world and it’s a shame there are less creative outside the box thinkers in an industry built around entertaining very smart people.
What I don't understand is that if there are as many disgruntled ex-players and/or players that look back wistfully on the sandbox days as there seems to be, then why on earth can't we get a little bit of what we paid for? The way I look at it, we collectively invested a large sum of money in a concept that we enjoyed and supported only to have that concept changed into something many dislike. Are we entitled to a little recompense?
I haven't read a single thread that talks about SWG on ANY board that doesn't have posts about the pros and cons of the different phases of SWG and how they were handled.
We can point fingers at different devs all day long, but it still doesn't bring us any closer to vindication.
You know how online petitions are set up when a company won't release an old series on DvD so people get together and sign away until they have enough people on board to show execs that it would be worth it? There was a petition awhile back to put ALF on DvD. Apparently it worked cause I saw the first season at heaven... I mean Best Buy.
Cheesy 80s shows aside, couldn't we start up something like that and take our numbers to LA and/or SOE?
We obviously all have a cathexis for the Star Wars liscense.
We seem to all agree that the directed experience and bastardized FPS isn't what we want.
And there seems to be a large outcry for at least one preNGE server.
Lastly, my condolences for any aggressiveness in any of my posts in this thread, and thanks for unlocking it.
Originally posted by Unagi Originally posted by SODAofBRIA What I want to know is: Why is it that all the Senators that were flown in to Austin to test out the NGE (remember this was early stages of NGE too!) absolutely RAVED about it? Then compare that to the community reaction.
What I'd really like is for somebody who wasn't even there to tell me again exactly what it was I saw in Austin.
Dude...I didn't TELL you anything. I asked a very simple question, very directly. Be careful, my emoticons have you outnumbered.
So, since you're feeling "chatty"...What DID you see? It couldn't have been what dropped on November 15th, 2005 because I came back to test it out by like the 17th and it was a crapfest. An admitted crapfest, mind you. * Or, did they show you something totally different? Did they decieve you? * Or, were/are you just towing the line? Does your compass point the same direction no matter what happens? * Or, did they make you do kegstands before you tested it and slipped in Ikari Warriors for the SNES?
From a commando's viewpoint, which was mine, the CU was a failure. For a year we were told the CURB would make commando into what it always should've been like. Post-CU, our AoE was broken for 8 months (main feature of the profession since we had no specials) and our weapons were really underpowered without real specials. And worse, we were...right under our very noses...changed from a heavy damage profession to a "utility-only profession".
The CU, though it dumbed the game down some, did some very nice things. For example creature handlers, finally some of the extinct pets were coming back into the game and we were actually able to, without relying on BioEngineers, start to get some unique and new abilities for our pets. Before the cu there was much work done on the bio engineer profession trying to get things right and make them more than just a tissue supplier. Commando bah, at least you still had a class to play after the NGE.
And how the hell commando ever became considered an "iconic" part of star wars still baffles me to no end. How many flamethrowers did you see in the movie? Or acid rifles? I remember stormies riding around on dewbacks, sandpeople riding around on bantha's and a tamed rancor.
If I sound bitter that is because I am. Over 1000 days played on my original character and I never dropped ch until it was forcibly removed from me.
Originally posted by MX13 Originally posted by Starnick Originally posted by JediGeek This thread got busy. Last I checked, earlier today this thread was at 7 pages. Starnick, you've made some good points and have been very diplomatic. But where you went wrong was saying good things about Helios. He may have been okay as a developer working with a specific part of combat, but as a lead developer he has failed miserably. He has clearly shown he doesn't understand anything besides "kill, loot, repeat." As long as he's in charge, there's no hope for SWG to be anything but a really crappy action game with some SW themes shoved down your throat that you have to pay a monthly fee for.
I do remember a lot about the original CU. I saw a lot of the docs for it and it sounded like it would be great. Remember the HAM in CU? The white was gone. There were two shades of red, green, and blue. That was there because the original CU was going to have a HAM change where there was a damage part and an "energy" part. Meaning that the HAM costs for specials were separate from damage to HAM. There were two shades of each to show this. That went out the window to try to copy WoW.
First of all - thanks stradden, despite some of the offshooting trolling/flaming I've grown fond of this thread
Well, I do praise him...but I'll also remind you that he did work on commando during the CU and went "missing" after our AoE started breaking...never finished us. But it may very well have been because he was pulled off commando. Also, recently he posted about how the game is going more into a "game" orientation rather than "sandbox" type of gameplay...I strongly disagree that the sandbox should be abandoned, and that a balance needs to be met -
example: because of the "game" orientation...newbies after finishing the legacy don't know what else to do...linear gameplay only goes so far and a sandbox although may be a bit complex, it offers a lot of depth and outlets for creativity/expression if given the right tools.
Anyways getting back to him becoming a lead designer...the game -is- better than it was 8 months ago when he wasnt a lead designer right and the NGE launched? Maybe its because they hired some good devs (like Hanse) who had strong impact. Whether or not he had an impact on it, or not...its something to wonder. The 7 months after the CU, some things were looking up...but others (like balance...we were getting back to FOTMs and constant flip flopping of development to fix balance problems) were spiraling out of control fast.
The NGE launch was the epitome of the "crap actiony" game and a low-point for most of the playerbase, now there's bit more of a hope in my opinion. But hey, we're all entitled to our opinions.
What have we sacrificed for balance? Individuality? That and more... the Combat systems are reverting, the only thing that's not coming back is the feeling of making your own way in a SW Universe. You know the feeling StarNick. That's what really kept me in Galaxies, and made it better than any other game I've played... The SW Universe (for all it's danger, openness & flaws) was there for you to make (and remake) your story in. We've traded that in for buying your next profession when you're bored, and grinding levels just to PVP for content & get ganked by BH teams...
The NGE is not the SW Universe... Pre-CU with a bit of work, heck even the CU (which at the end with ToOW was finally coming together), that's the universe of SW...
I agree, I loved the way pre-CU felt with players trying to make their way in the SW universe. It felt expansive...not just "oh new dungeon opened up, lets get the loot" repeatedly over again...maybe it was because of the newness of the game still. At any rate, players and NPCs actually felt like "real people" to a degree - Im not fond of levels either, it narrows you and your thinking. I liked the aspect that what really mattered was how much health and armour an NPC had, not its combat level strength. It served to give some extra strategy in my opinion, because there was a chance you could beat something that was "12 levels above you"...now...its very cut and dry.
And to the last poster...yes you saw flamethrowers in the prequels - jango fett. Yes, he was a BH...but mandalorians were super-commandos. A problem with the movies and SW lore, anyone could be a BH...commandos...pistoleers...etc. It wasn't a profession, just a willingless to take bounties on people - in essence, be a merceny.
Either though I was never thrilled by Commander Cody, the clones were at least genetic clones of a supercommando...and the clone generals were also ARC-trained (Advanced Recon Commandos). Commando's iconic-ness wasn't as overt as jedi, but it was still there.
But ultimately, we probably managed to survive the great profession purge because we had a whole set of unique weapons which would have been weird to integrate into other professions -or- wouldn't have made sense just having a unique set of weapons that originally comprised a profession floating out there in the game. Heavy Weapons always made a commando, and I think as long as there will be Heavy Weapons in SWG...there will always be a commando profession.
Originally posted by SODAofBRIA Originally posted by Unagi Originally posted by SODAofBRIA What I want to know is: Why is it that all the Senators that were flown in to Austin to test out the NGE (remember this was early stages of NGE too!) absolutely RAVED about it? Then compare that to the community reaction.
What I'd really like is for somebody who wasn't even there to tell me again exactly what it was I saw in Austin.
Dude...I didn't TELL you anything. I asked a very simple question, very directly. Be careful, my emoticons have you outnumbered.
So, since you're feeling "chatty"...What DID you see? It couldn't have been what dropped on November 15th, 2005 because I came back to test it out by like the 17th and it was a crapfest. An admitted crapfest, mind you. * Or, did they show you something totally different? Did they decieve you? * Or, were/are you just towing the line? Does your compass point the same direction no matter what happens? * Or, did they make you do kegstands before you tested it and slipped in Ikari Warriors for the SNES?
Who ordered the CODE RED?!
Yeah, actually you did "tell" me something. You told me and the rest of us here I was lying about what I saw in Austin. And then later on here you got kind of pedantic about how simple and direct you were being - which is more than a little disingenuous.
Slightly out of context there so bear with me as I refer you back to one of your own posts. In another thread - recently and on these boards - you pulled up these three quotes from me that I made back in the first week of last November:
Originally posted by SODAofBRIA Throw another liar on the barbie! http://soe.lithium.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Bria&message.id=1063256#M1063256 Darth_Sushi Galactic Senator Posts: 3359 Registered: 07-17-2003 posted: 11-02-2005 03:03 PM It's all true. I have been in SOE's offices in Austin all day playing with the new changes and talking with the developers, designers and producers. It looks awesome. The CU was a band-aid on a broken system. This is a brand new game. And it rocks. The game has never looked, felt and played more like "Star Wars" then it did when I logged into the test console this morning.
posted: 11-02-2005 02:08 PM OK - So you may have heard by now that SWG is shaking things up a bit. I have been in Austin at SOE's offices all day testing a lot of these new upcoming changes. While there is likely to be a lot of fear, uncertainty and doubt about the new direction of the game, my first impression is one of sheer amazement and joy. I can assure you that the future of Squad Leader is quite bright. And I mean bright like:
Airstrikes Artillery Orbital Bombardment Please check out New Game Enhancements forum. And remember to keep it civil and stay on target.
i'm 100% positive if he were to be candid he would describe his original vision as overambitious and laud the changes coming for this game.
Overambitious indeed. The orginal design wasn't flawed, per se. However, that system was too complex to maintain and enhance given the limitations of the technology used to build and support it. There are too many things they want to do with this game that are simply impossible or infeasible from a technical and/or finanical standpoint in it's current incarnation.
Wow...it sure was thick in there around November!
See what you did there? You called me a liar. It's right there in bold red. You did this first. And without justifiable basis. I am sure you just thought you were being cute, and maybe you were only joking, and maybe you thought I'd never actually read or respond to the obvious trolling and flamebait you were laying down, but by making this baseless assertion you have lost any moral high ground you might have otherwise been able to legitimately claim - as you seemingly attempt in the first quote of yours I cited above. Clear so far? Good.
Now, since you saw fit to call me a liar, and you did call me a liar, you must necessarily know what it was that I saw that I was describing in the posts you quoted above in order to know that I was lying about it. I understand that you don't agree with me or my assessment. On this there can be no doubt. That you have a differing opinion does not make me a liar. Conversely, I was also not lying if I believed it when i said it. Even if, hypothetically, I no longer believe now what I said then it is still not a lie. You claim that I was lying. So as I stated above, in response to a post of your very own creation, please share with us all what it was that I saw or did that I then lied about. See where I'm going with this? Cool.
Your follow up questions in this thread certainly seem to concur with my assertion that you actually have no idea what it was I was shown in Austin. If it then follows that if you don't know what it was I saw, on what basis could you possibly hope to determine my veracity? You can't. See? And I'm afraid that even though I could be the bigger guy here and let it slide, I have to admit I'm kind of fixated on it. It seems I have some kind of problem with you calling me a liar and then demanding more information from me like you have some kind of entitlement to it. It bothers me. So just admit it, man up and apologize so we can get over this hurdle and on to talking about more important stuff. Like what I actually saw in Austin - to the extent that it matters, since you have already made your opinion on the topic abundantly clear.
And on a completely unrelated topic:
This other thing that you accuse me of above - and that various others around here seem to like acusing my fellow Senators of - the appropriate idiomatic expression is to "toe" the line and not "tow" it.
Comments
I can't argue with a thing you've said. Having always had a Commando until the NGE, I can relate.
That said, the true tragedy is this: We were once EXCITED about the CU.
Not many remeber that, but when the original CU was coming up the entire community was looking forward to it, with a bit of a nervous flutter. When the Original CU tests started (the CU we never got, before it was scraped for the CU we did get) a LOT of positive feedback came to the community from testers. None thought it was perfect, but it address the main concerns for the most part.
If we were all to list out top 20 issues with Pre-CU, it's safe to say that the top 10 would probably listed in 95% of our lists. The solutions for those issues weren't simple, but there were potential solutions.
Instead of pushing forward with the original CU they revamped it into the CU we did get, a flashier attempt to put a "fresh" WoW bling to the game IMO. The CU was delayed for sometime as a result, and when it was released, it was EXTEAMLY buggy, hence the 6 weeks of double XP and the Village People EXPLOSION. Does anyone remember how many rounds of respecs we got, I don't? It was insane.
Sadly, if they would have put the same effort into refining the original CU SWG would not be where it is today... a Shadow of what it once was...
I just can't believe they made the same mistakes twice... just wow...
Man I’ve made tons of threads about this mysterious CU that never was. What the hell happened? I heard really good things about it. then they delayed it then we ended up with the CU we got. They really blew it. Like I said I could think of like 10 big things people complained about in those days, the NGE has brought us hundreds. If any of you devs are reading these forums WTH happened? You guys so blew it. We could have built at least the second best MMO together but you guys completely blew it!
I can't argue with a thing you've said. Having always had a Commando until the NGE, I can relate.
That said, the true tragedy is this: We were once EXCITED about the CU.
Not many remeber that, but when the original CU was coming up the entire community was looking forward to it, with a bit of a nervous flutter. When the Original CU tests started (the CU we never got, before it was scraped for the CU we did get) a LOT of positive feedback came to the community from testers. None thought it was perfect, but it address the main concerns for the most part.
If we were all to list out top 20 issues with Pre-CU, it's safe to say that the top 10 would probably listed in 95% of our lists. The solutions for those issues weren't simple, but there were potential solutions.
Instead of pushing forward with the original CU they revamped it into the CU we did get, a flashier attempt to put a "fresh" WoW bling to the game IMO. The CU was delayed for sometime as a result, and when it was released, it was EXTEAMLY buggy, hence the 6 weeks of double XP and the Village People EXPLOSION. Does anyone remember how many rounds of respecs we got, I don't? It was insane.
Sadly, if they would have put the same effort into refining the original CU SWG would not be where it is today... a Shadow of what it once was...
I just can't believe they made the same mistakes twice... just wow...
Yeah, before the CU beta we were excited. Got even more excited in the CU Alpha when we saw the first round of documents. Anyone remember how weapons were suppoused to have 1-3 types of changeable modes? It looked to have been a more balanced yet a deep game system overall.
Sadly the CU Alpha never got real testing, we just got to look at two sets of documents (if I remember right) then beta began, lasting like a month...
I remember reading about Buffs being changed to Stim Buffs that boosted your Regen, not your hrealth... that sounded sweet... wow, what a waste...
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
Heh. Just to nitpick a little. The CU only existed for 7 months (April to November) so your AoE attacks couldn't have been broken for 8 months post-CU
(Edit: Unless you are referring to time spent on Test Center, which I don't consider as being official)
I do remember the AoE weapons working when I picked up commando in the CU, but I don't remember exactly when I did that but it was in the last half of the CU. I also remember that I hated those weapons in PvE because it was a great way to draw in all sorts of hate from creatures.
I see your point though. Although I still don't think that the CU was a failure, just that it wasn't given a chance to be any good. If that 4 months is correct, then the CU was truly scrapped after only 3 months.
Doh you're right!
I ment eight PUBLISHES. Sorry sometimes I can be stupid like that. AoE was finally fixed in Publish 24, and the CU was Publish 15. AoE kinda worked for a while during the CU beta but then broke after they tampered with it (making it limited AoE).
It wasn't until the mustufar expansion beta when commando got the AoE fix, some grenade fixes, and commando specials, although obviously you didn't need ToW to access it...but that was one of the reasons why I like Helios_SOE...he personally looked at the problem and gave some relief, and even came on TC with me a few times to make sure things were working right on a public server. Because prior to that, AoE -was- working on the development server...just not live..., a reason why they never caught it.
He was also one of the guys who later worked on the post-NGE Heavy Weapon system, and then became a lead designer a few months back.
Man I’ve made tons of threads about this mysterious CU that never was. What the hell happened? I heard really good things about it. then they delayed it then we ended up with the CU we got. They really blew it. Like I said I could think of like 10 big things people complained about in those days, the NGE has brought us hundreds. If any of you devs are reading these forums WTH happened? You guys so blew it. We could have built at least the second best MMO together but you guys completely blew it!
I would not exclude Raph being part of the original CU.
His last post was towards end of 2004, which would make sense if here were brought into the project again. His post wasn't about SWG, but at least he skimmed through the forums. Of course, by then, there would have been the conflict of wow vs. SWG, and LA's possible pressure, so it's hard to say anything.
It also fits in with some between the lines comments and the overall impression of all of this, both CU and NGE.
Raph opposed many concepts, including buffs. So I'd figure he would try to expand upon his original vision.
This is completely unsubstantiated, just a little thought from me.
What is a fact, is that the whole look-and-feel of CU was WoW clone. What NGE was supposed to be is hard to say. KOTOR? Planetside? BF2? Whatever it was, it ended up even worse than CU.
The feeling is Mutual... read what I wrote before acting like a DA...
Why because my responce was to your post ?
Because your reponse, as usual, is only Trolling... I didn't attack the guy, and he was attcking someone for something he didn't say... as usual, Trolling means more to you than accuracy...
Calling me a "Pre-CU fanatic" & a "hypocrite" was way off & nothing but Trolling... Trolly Mc Troll...
Thats all fine and dandy , But my point was I wasn't even talking to you .
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The feeling is Mutual... read what I wrote before acting like a DA...
Why because my responce was to your post ?
Because your reponse, as usual, is only Trolling... I didn't attack the guy, and he was attcking someone for something he didn't say... as usual, Trolling means more to you than accuracy...
Calling me a "Pre-CU fanatic" & a "hypocrite" was way off & nothing but Trolling... Trolly Mc Troll...
Thats all fine and dandy , But my point was I wasn't even talking to you .
It doesn't change the fact that everything you accused me of, you turned around and did to someone else.
So now you're a Troll AND a hypocrite.
So you wanna be the pot or the kettle?
The feeling is Mutual... read what I wrote before acting like a DA...
Why because my responce was to your post ?
Because your reponse, as usual, is only Trolling... I didn't attack the guy, and he was attcking someone for something he didn't say... as usual, Trolling means more to you than accuracy...
Calling me a "Pre-CU fanatic" & a "hypocrite" was way off & nothing but Trolling... Trolly Mc Troll...
Thats all fine and dandy , But my point was I wasn't even talking to you .
It doesn't change the fact that everything you accused me of, you turned around and did to someone else.
So now you're a Troll AND a hypocrite.
So you wanna be the pot or the kettle?
Really, Where did I tell someone they have the mentality of a 5 year old ? Take your kettles and pots and shove em .
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
LOL
Well, say something bad about commando or call a commando nerf and I may not be such a nice guy.... :P
As far as real verbal anger/abuse goes, it takes quite a lot for me to really "go commando" on someone, and it only really has happened a few times...(and I'll admit, to a red-name once...but it wasn't insults, just a lot of frustration mind you)
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If the flaming doesn't stop, we will be forced to hand out bans.
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Managing Editor
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Starnick, you've made some good points and have been very diplomatic. But where you went wrong was saying good things about Helios.
He may have been okay as a developer working with a specific part of combat, but as a lead developer he has failed miserably. He has clearly shown he doesn't understand anything besides "kill, loot, repeat." As long as he's in charge, there's no hope for SWG to be anything but a really crappy action game with some SW themes shoved down your throat that you have to pay a monthly fee for.
I do remember a lot about the original CU. I saw a lot of the docs for it and it sounded like it would be great. Remember the HAM in CU? The white was gone. There were two shades of red, green, and blue. That was there because the original CU was going to have a HAM change where there was a damage part and an "energy" part. Meaning that the HAM costs for specials were separate from damage to HAM. There were two shades of each to show this. That went out the window to try to copy WoW.
SWG Tempest: Cardo Dycen RIP
Eve: Cardoh Dycen
I support random drug testing for all SOE employees
Well, I do praise him...but I'll also remind you that he did work on commando during the CU and went "missing" after our AoE started breaking...never finished us. But it may very well have been because he was pulled off commando. Also, recently he posted about how the game is going more into a "game" orientation rather than "sandbox" type of gameplay...I strongly disagree that the sandbox should be abandoned, and that a balance needs to be met -
example: because of the "game" orientation...newbies after finishing the legacy don't know what else to do...linear gameplay only goes so far and a sandbox although may be a bit complex, it offers a lot of depth and outlets for creativity/expression if given the right tools.
Anyways getting back to him becoming a lead designer...the game -is- better than it was 8 months ago when he wasnt a lead designer right and the NGE launched? Maybe its because they hired some good devs (like Hanse) who had strong impact. Whether or not he had an impact on it, or not...its something to wonder. The 7 months after the CU, some things were looking up...but others (like balance...we were getting back to FOTMs and constant flip flopping of development to fix balance problems) were spiraling out of control fast.
The NGE launch was the epitome of the "crap actiony" game and a low-point for most of the playerbase, now there's bit more of a hope in my opinion. But hey, we're all entitled to our opinions.
Very nicely stated.
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
Well, I do praise him...but I'll also remind you that he did work on commando during the CU and went "missing" after our AoE started breaking...never finished us. But it may very well have been because he was pulled off commando. Also, recently he posted about how the game is going more into a "game" orientation rather than "sandbox" type of gameplay...I strongly disagree that the sandbox should be abandoned, and that a balance needs to be met -
example: because of the "game" orientation...newbies after finishing the legacy don't know what else to do...linear gameplay only goes so far and a sandbox although may be a bit complex, it offers a lot of depth and outlets for creativity/expression if given the right tools.
Anyways getting back to him becoming a lead designer...the game -is- better than it was 8 months ago when he wasnt a lead designer right and the NGE launched? Maybe its because they hired some good devs (like Hanse) who had strong impact. Whether or not he had an impact on it, or not...its something to wonder. The 7 months after the CU, some things were looking up...but others (like balance...we were getting back to FOTMs and constant flip flopping of development to fix balance problems) were spiraling out of control fast.
The NGE launch was the epitome of the "crap actiony" game and a low-point for most of the playerbase, now there's bit more of a hope in my opinion. But hey, we're all entitled to our opinions.
Good addition.
Many forget that Helios used to be one of the favorite Dev's... before the dark times... before the NGE...
He did some great work, pulled some all nighters & even chatted it up. Back then we loved his arogant attitude, afterall, he was just a designer fight the system, or some crap like that. But once he became LD, things have not gotten better IMO. Sure, work has been done, but look at the dEsign Quality. The Recent Expertise issues are a prime example of horrible design. He may not have done the work, bet he is responsable for it.
That said, I don't believe SWG is in any better shape, and the NGE may have cured FOTM, but at what cost? Dividing Professions (like Commando) from Skills (like Pistols) and giving us enough Professions points to Master one Profession, and enough Skill Points to Master 2.5 Skills would have laid the ground work for balancing in a way that kept diversity, and that's just one idea.
What have we sacrificed for balance? Individuality? That and more... the Combat systems are reverting, the only thing that's not coming back is the feeling of making your own way in a SW Universe. You know the feeling StarNick. That's what really kept me in Galaxies, and made it better than any other game I've played... The SW Universe (for all it's danger, openness & flaws) was there for you to make (and remake) your story in. We've traded that in for buying your next profession when you're bored, and grinding levels just to PVP for content & get ganked by BH teams...
The NGE is not the SW Universe... Pre-CU with a bit of work, heck even the CU (which at the end with ToOW was finally coming together), that's the universe of SW...
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
Well, I do praise him...but I'll also remind you that he did work on commando during the CU and went "missing" after our AoE started breaking...never finished us. But it may very well have been because he was pulled off commando. Also, recently he posted about how the game is going more into a "game" orientation rather than "sandbox" type of gameplay...I strongly disagree that the sandbox should be abandoned, and that a balance needs to be met -
example: because of the "game" orientation...newbies after finishing the legacy don't know what else to do...linear gameplay only goes so far and a sandbox although may be a bit complex, it offers a lot of depth and outlets for creativity/expression if given the right tools.
Anyways getting back to him becoming a lead designer...the game -is- better than it was 8 months ago when he wasnt a lead designer right and the NGE launched? Maybe its because they hired some good devs (like Hanse) who had strong impact. Whether or not he had an impact on it, or not...its something to wonder. The 7 months after the CU, some things were looking up...but others (like balance...we were getting back to FOTMs and constant flip flopping of development to fix balance problems) were spiraling out of control fast.
The NGE launch was the epitome of the "crap actiony" game and a low-point for most of the playerbase, now there's bit more of a hope in my opinion. But hey, we're all entitled to our opinions.
Good addition.
Many forget that Helios used to be one of the favorite Dev's... before the dark times... before the NGE...
He did some great work, pulled some all nighters & even chatted it up. Back then we loved his arogant attitude, afterall, he was just a designer fight the system, or some crap like that. But once he became LD, things have not gotten better IMO. Sure, work has been done, but look at the dEsign Quality. The Recent Expertise issues are a prime example of horrible design. He may not have done the work, bet he is responsable for it.
That said, I don't believe SWG is in any better shape, and the NGE may have cured FOTM, but at what cost? Dividing Professions (like Commando) from Skills (like Pistols) and giving us enough Professions points to Master one Profession, and enough Skill Points to Master 2.5 Skills would have laid the ground work for balancing in a way that kept diversity, and that's just one idea.
What have we sacrificed for balance? Individuality? That and more... the Combat systems are reverting, the only thing that's not coming back is the feeling of making your own way in a SW Universe. You know the feeling StarNick. That's what really kept me in Galaxies, and made it better than any other game I've played... The SW Universe (for all it's danger, openness & flaws) was there for you to make (and remake) your story in. We've traded that in for buying your next profession when you're bored, and grinding levels just to PVP for content & get ganked by BH teams...
The NGE is not the SW Universe... Pre-CU with a bit of work, heck even the CU (which at the end with ToOW was finally coming together), that's the universe of SW...
QFE! IMHO it was less a game and more an adventure, chose your own adventure if you will. Test your strengths and weaknesses against the might of the galaxy and see what happens. It was closer to an old dice RPG than any game since. Even Turbine failed at recapturing that feeling in DDO. Raph's vision guided it perfectly. Now with level based combat and movie scripted quests it's less linear and feels confining and takes away from what we enjoyed about the game. Grant's comment about how they didn't remove those linear qualities of the game is untrue. The game as in real life was a grind for some and we enjoyed it for the most part. It is not a scripted event that plays like a movie giving you the feeling of being an actor on stage being pushed along by a annoying director (CUT! here's your reward and a level)
Levels=bad idea,
(Vanive; can I take that mob yet? Crap no!!!)= knowledge based on experience and observation/ “empiric knowledge” which in turn makes a more rounded and experienced player. This admittedly isn’t for everyone but can be enjoyed by most.
(Vanive; can I take that mob? better not its 12 levels above mine)
This= less people taking risks which is opposite of the knowledge you gain based on experience which in turn makes a less rounded and less experienced player, which can kill enjoyment for most.
There needs to be a perfect balance=enjoyment for all/ quests, minus levels, but an experience gain from accomplishing the quests.
Its human nature to make decisions based on the challenges you face day to day to advance to the next. As you gain more knowledge doing challenging things you push yourself harder, and that is the reward in it’s self (no mater how much we bitch about it). Being an actor is fun and challenging at times, but not everyone wants to live a life of staged scripts and bad acting on a daily basis and call that life. I know SOE and LEC could give a crap less about the psychology and emotions behind video games, but hey! Maybe if someone took the time to delve into the psyche of people, life and games maybe they could actually build the best game of all time. Raph understands this but he’s an outside the box thinker like me and way ahead of most peoples train of thought. He is unlike 90% of the people in the gaming world and it’s a shame there are less creative outside the box thinkers in an industry built around entertaining very smart people.
What I don't understand is that if there are as many disgruntled ex-players and/or players that look back wistfully on the sandbox days as there seems to be, then why on earth can't we get a little bit of what we paid for? The way I look at it, we collectively invested a large sum of money in a concept that we enjoyed and supported only to have that concept changed into something many dislike. Are we entitled to a little recompense?
I haven't read a single thread that talks about SWG on ANY board that doesn't have posts about the pros and cons of the different phases of SWG and how they were handled.
We can point fingers at different devs all day long, but it still doesn't bring us any closer to vindication.
You know how online petitions are set up when a company won't release an old series on DvD so people get together and sign away until they have enough people on board to show execs that it would be worth it? There was a petition awhile back to put ALF on DvD. Apparently it worked cause I saw the first season at heaven... I mean Best Buy.
Cheesy 80s shows aside, couldn't we start up something like that and take our numbers to LA and/or SOE?
We obviously all have a cathexis for the Star Wars liscense.
We seem to all agree that the directed experience and bastardized FPS isn't what we want.
And there seems to be a large outcry for at least one preNGE server.
Lastly, my condolences for any aggressiveness in any of my posts in this thread, and thanks for unlocking it.
/salute
What I'd really like is for somebody who wasn't even there to tell me again exactly what it was I saw in Austin.
Dude...I didn't TELL you anything. I asked a very simple question, very directly.
Be careful, my emoticons have you outnumbered.
So, since you're feeling "chatty"...What DID you see?
It couldn't have been what dropped on November 15th, 2005 because I came back to test it out by like the 17th and it was a crapfest. An admitted crapfest, mind you.
* Or, did they show you something totally different? Did they decieve you?
* Or, were/are you just towing the line? Does your compass point the same direction no matter what happens?
* Or, did they make you do kegstands before you tested it and slipped in Ikari Warriors for the SNES?
Who ordered the CODE RED?!
Love, Sodapop
And how the hell commando ever became considered an "iconic" part of star wars still baffles me to no end. How many flamethrowers did you see in the movie? Or acid rifles? I remember stormies riding around on dewbacks, sandpeople riding around on bantha's and a tamed rancor.
If I sound bitter that is because I am. Over 1000 days played on my original character and I never dropped ch until it was forcibly removed from me.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
Well, I do praise him...but I'll also remind you that he did work on commando during the CU and went "missing" after our AoE started breaking...never finished us. But it may very well have been because he was pulled off commando. Also, recently he posted about how the game is going more into a "game" orientation rather than "sandbox" type of gameplay...I strongly disagree that the sandbox should be abandoned, and that a balance needs to be met -
example: because of the "game" orientation...newbies after finishing the legacy don't know what else to do...linear gameplay only goes so far and a sandbox although may be a bit complex, it offers a lot of depth and outlets for creativity/expression if given the right tools.
Anyways getting back to him becoming a lead designer...the game -is- better than it was 8 months ago when he wasnt a lead designer right and the NGE launched? Maybe its because they hired some good devs (like Hanse) who had strong impact. Whether or not he had an impact on it, or not...its something to wonder. The 7 months after the CU, some things were looking up...but others (like balance...we were getting back to FOTMs and constant flip flopping of development to fix balance problems) were spiraling out of control fast.
The NGE launch was the epitome of the "crap actiony" game and a low-point for most of the playerbase, now there's bit more of a hope in my opinion. But hey, we're all entitled to our opinions.
What have we sacrificed for balance? Individuality? That and more... the Combat systems are reverting, the only thing that's not coming back is the feeling of making your own way in a SW Universe. You know the feeling StarNick. That's what really kept me in Galaxies, and made it better than any other game I've played... The SW Universe (for all it's danger, openness & flaws) was there for you to make (and remake) your story in. We've traded that in for buying your next profession when you're bored, and grinding levels just to PVP for content & get ganked by BH teams...
The NGE is not the SW Universe... Pre-CU with a bit of work, heck even the CU (which at the end with ToOW was finally coming together), that's the universe of SW...
I agree, I loved the way pre-CU felt with players trying to make their way in the SW universe. It felt expansive...not just "oh new dungeon opened up, lets get the loot" repeatedly over again...maybe it was because of the newness of the game still. At any rate, players and NPCs actually felt like "real people" to a degree - Im not fond of levels either, it narrows you and your thinking. I liked the aspect that what really mattered was how much health and armour an NPC had, not its combat level strength. It served to give some extra strategy in my opinion, because there was a chance you could beat something that was "12 levels above you"...now...its very cut and dry.
And to the last poster...yes you saw flamethrowers in the prequels - jango fett. Yes, he was a BH...but mandalorians were super-commandos. A problem with the movies and SW lore, anyone could be a BH...commandos...pistoleers...etc. It wasn't a profession, just a willingless to take bounties on people - in essence, be a merceny.
Either though I was never thrilled by Commander Cody, the clones were at least genetic clones of a supercommando...and the clone generals were also ARC-trained (Advanced Recon Commandos). Commando's iconic-ness wasn't as overt as jedi, but it was still there.
But ultimately, we probably managed to survive the great profession purge because we had a whole set of unique weapons which would have been weird to integrate into other professions -or- wouldn't have made sense just having a unique set of weapons that originally comprised a profession floating out there in the game. Heavy Weapons always made a commando, and I think as long as there will be Heavy Weapons in SWG...there will always be a commando profession.
Thankfully...
What I'd really like is for somebody who wasn't even there to tell me again exactly what it was I saw in Austin.
Dude...I didn't TELL you anything. I asked a very simple question, very directly.
Be careful, my emoticons have you outnumbered.
So, since you're feeling "chatty"...What DID you see?
It couldn't have been what dropped on November 15th, 2005 because I came back to test it out by like the 17th and it was a crapfest. An admitted crapfest, mind you.
* Or, did they show you something totally different? Did they decieve you?
* Or, were/are you just towing the line? Does your compass point the same direction no matter what happens?
* Or, did they make you do kegstands before you tested it and slipped in Ikari Warriors for the SNES?
Who ordered the CODE RED?!
Yeah, actually you did "tell" me something. You told me and the rest of us here I was lying about what I saw in Austin. And then later on here you got kind of pedantic about how simple and direct you were being - which is more than a little disingenuous.
Slightly out of context there so bear with me as I refer you back to one of your own posts. In another thread - recently and on these boards - you pulled up these three quotes from me that I made back in the first week of last November:
However, that system was too complex to maintain and enhance given the
limitations of the technology used to build and support it. There are
too many things they want to do with this game that are
simply impossible or infeasible from a technical and/or finanical
standpoint in it's current incarnation.
See what you did there? You called me a liar. It's right there in bold red. You did this first. And without justifiable basis. I am sure you just thought you were being cute, and maybe you were only joking, and maybe you thought I'd never actually read or respond to the obvious trolling and flamebait you were laying down, but by making this baseless assertion you have lost any moral high ground you might have otherwise been able to legitimately claim - as you seemingly attempt in the first quote of yours I cited above. Clear so far? Good.
Now, since you saw fit to call me a liar, and you did call me a liar, you must necessarily know what it was that I saw that I was describing in the posts you quoted above in order to know that I was lying about it. I understand that you don't agree with me or my assessment. On this there can be no doubt. That you have a differing opinion does not make me a
liar. Conversely, I was also not lying if I believed it when i said it. Even if, hypothetically, I no longer believe now what I said then it is still not a lie. You claim that I was lying. So as I stated above, in response to a post of your very own creation, please share with us all what it was that I saw or did that I then lied about. See where I'm going with this? Cool.
Your follow up questions in this thread certainly seem to concur with my assertion that you actually have no idea what it was I was shown in Austin. If it then follows that if you don't know what it was I saw, on what basis could you possibly hope to determine my veracity? You can't. See? And I'm afraid that even though I could be the bigger guy here and let it slide, I have to admit I'm kind of fixated on it. It seems I have some kind of problem with you calling me a liar and then demanding more information from me like you have some kind of entitlement to it. It bothers me. So just admit it, man up and apologize so we can get over this hurdle and on to talking about more important stuff. Like what I actually saw in Austin - to the extent that it matters, since you have already made your opinion on the topic abundantly clear.
And on a completely unrelated topic:
This other thing that you accuse me of above - and that various others around here seem to like acusing my fellow Senators of - the appropriate idiomatic expression is to "toe" the line and not "tow" it.