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UN plea for European peacekeepers
britoca
Member Posts: 1,484
UN plea for European peacekeepers
C'mon people! The UN depends on everybody's help! They reached a peace agreement so let's help with this s**t already!
If you think the UN doesn't work it's because you're probably refusing to help it anyways.
More troops needed NOW! Wake Up! Everybody!
-virtual tourist
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Also UN doesn't work because it has absolutely no powers. They can't go anywhere without permission. Permission from who ? Powerful member nations. Who are those nations ? US, China, Russia, G8 basically.
How can such an organization work when you have opressive regime countries on comitees dealing with problems like human rights
It's funny isn't it ? Also what do you think the U.N. can do ? I would like for someone to tell me what the UN can do in this situation, considering the soldiers aren't allowed to use their weapons even ? Also as illustrated by the cowardice of the Dutch troops in protecting people during their peackeeping days in Bosnia, not too many soliders from far away countries want to take a bullet to save some strangers life. I'm referring to the incident where Dutch peacekeeping troops let a ton of people get taken from the hospital they were"protecting" , driven off and shot in the back of the head, for obvious reasons.
It's better be hated for who you are, than loved for who you aren't.
I want them to go!
-virtual tourist
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patrol the region, which is what is sorely missing
-virtual tourist
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Great Britain pulled out in 1948. We don't want anything to do with the place.
Been there, seen it, done it.
You might get some help from France if they have lost all common sense.
unfortunately it doesn't work like that, but I agree that it should though
-virtual tourist
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I know Baff, I would rather let it settle on its own as well, but as the recent news just showed, it seems that it won't. It hasn't since the day I was born and it hadn's well before that as well.
If the involved nations don't have the means and resources to police their borders for lunatic behavior (ie lauching rockets across broders, kidnappings of troops, etc) then it's a sign that the world needs to help them.
The world needs to help in hotzones across the globe, not just this one, but all the other trouble areas that occasionally implode into conflict.
I am not interested in supporting an army with my taxes, my work, so they can parade up and down the square all day. For that, disband the stupid army.
I want my army to be used for the common good and peace maintenance on this planet. That's what I pay my taxes for. If there's no war at home, then go and help maintain peace where it's needed. Help the UN.
And about the UN polarization of power, those who have made such criticism are completely correct. It is an imperfect system, and it does have to be rebalanced, but you also have to realize that this is the only world organization purposely assembled with the intent of peace promotion and maintenance. Without it we go right back to the 19th century and the complete supremacy of the nation state system. At least now we have something to try and balance that. If you think it's imperfect, then help make it approach the perfection you envision, not weaken it further.
I am sorry, but I am not interested in peace "at home" only. I am interested in peace on earth.
-virtual tourist
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You know that the only thing U.N. patrols have achieved in the last 20 or 30 years is a load of dead U.N. soliders right?
What do you want them to do? Just walk around no mans land until they get shot?
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Or do you want them to try and disarm Hisbollah? Didn't you notice what just happened when the I.D.F. tried?
Or maybe you want to disarm the I.D.F.?
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Perhaps you were thinking your army has a better track record of disarming arab Guerillas than the I.D.F., that they have been doing a much better job of it in Iraq or Afghanistan?
Or that the I.D.F. is a third world military, untrained, unarmed and unable to fight back? That it doesn't know it's enemy and the terrain and hasn't been developing technologies of war specifically for fighting in that theatre for the last 50 years.
If the experts can't do it, my advice is to stay out of it, you'll only make things worse.
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Do you honestly believe an American invasion of either Lebanon or Israel would be a step towards world peace?
crikey
Originally posted by baff
Do you honestly believe an American invasion of either Lebanon or Israel would be a step towards world peace?
An american invasion??? Who here mentioned anything related to the US army alone? The news link is an appeal to the European nations. I myself have not targeted any one particular nation other than mine (Portugal). How do you mix US troops in here?
Besides, we are talking about troops deployed under the UN banner. It's not an independent national army! This means that these troops are being brought in through a GLOBAL CONSENSUS reached in the UN security council, and not some national decision alone as it was the Iraq war.
This is not an invasion! This is equivalent to contributing cops to a bad neighbourghood whose local police agents can't cope with the local crime! If the US contributes as well, great!
And if you dont' want to do it this way, then how do you want to do it? Because it's already demonstrated that this is a problem that affects us all, not just the people of the middle east, and that by sitting on our butts we help no one.
I'm sorry, I just don't see the division between "us here" and "them there". They're people, this is OUR PLANET! If your nation were in trouble like this, I'd want mine to help yours as well! And vice-versa!
We're in the the 21st century, we can't keep playing Risk and pretending that our little plot of land is all that matters!
-virtual tourist
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Sorry your user info say's you're from Berkley California. You'd mentioned you were from Portugal before, but your profile confuses me.
If the military force goes there with the intent to conquer, it's an invasion. If it isn't going there to conquer it's not doing anything the existing U.N. force isn't already.
What exactly do you think the portuguese will be able to achieve? What do you want your troops to do?
I'm sorry but just "patrol" doesn't sound like you've given it much thought. There are already 4 military forces patroling the area, how many do you need?
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And if you dont' want to do it this way, then how do you want to do it? Because it's already demonstrated that this is a problem that affects us all, not just the people of the middle east, and that by sitting on our butts we help no one.
The global consensus of a load of foreigners who don't live there and for whom the only effect on their lives is watching newsreels isn't something I am hopeful about. What are your troops intending to do, and what chance of success do they have? Will the actual powers in theatre respect your "Global consensus" or will they they just see a load more foreign troops on their land shooting at them?
Me, I don't want to do anything, this problem doesn't affect me. Or even all of the people in the middle east. And whats more, I don't want it to. My soldiers are not sitting on their butts and helping no one, but they are already embroiled in two middle eastern fights they are unlikely to win. Why on earth would I be looking for a third?
I'm sorry, I just don't see the division between "us here" and "them there". They're people, this is OUR PLANET! If your nation were in trouble like this, I'd want mine to help yours as well! And vice-versa!
It's not "our planet". We each only own our little bit of it, nothing more. The planet isn't yours, you don't get to say what happens to it any more than I do. If my nation was in trouble, I'd want yours to help to, but it isn't. And neither is yours. If my troops deploy there, it will be.
There is a very large difference between "us" and "them". If they get killed or maimed, it's a statistic in a newspaper, if one of my army friends gets his legs blown off, it's a friend of mine. The well being of my loved ones is my highest priority. Random strangers I'm never going to meet are a long way down the list.
This ceasefire agreement is useless and stupid. And that we encouraged a ceasefire is beyond me, except that it is typical diplomatic BS. Its not going to solve anything and will only serve to prolong the problem. Let me get this straight, we're gonna put troops from various western nations as a buffer? So they can be shot at??? So the Arab world can use it as an excuse to attack other nations involved? It's a ridiculous idea that only serves to allow Hezbollah to re-arm until their next action. There will only be peace once someone wins in this conflict. Period.
I see now that France is balking at sending a bunch of troops there. I would ordinarily criticize them, especially since they wanted this ceasefire and troops there, but they would have to be idiots to send their guys there. Let the Israelis and Hezbollah finish this. The Israelis know they're gonna have to go back.
Obviously we need a lot more! If there's crime in a neighborhood, what do you do? Don't you put more cops into that neighbourhood?
Besides, if I'm not mistaken, there were 2000 or so UN troops there "observing". Now, on a border that is tens and tens of kilometers in length... 2000 men is nothing. really, it is.
And by patrol I mean a mandate with authorization to use force in order to maintain the supposed functionality and security of the border and the land around it.
Basically, if the nutcase wing of the Hezzbollah decides to enter israel and kidnap some guy, they'd have to make past the "cops" first, the UN troops. Functional troops, troops that cannot attack with no reason, but can use force when any one side breaches the independence and the authority of the other. Think cops, literally.
And by increasing the number of patrolling troops on the border, it minimizes the opportunities to do such things as shooting rockets across the border and get away scot free like they did in the past.
These are poor nations, they can barely get water delivered to their populations, much less have a good working police force and security. They're short-staffed. Right now, it's like a desert that no one can possibly keep an eye on all the time, everywhere. Anyone can get on a donkey, trek to some hill behind some bushes or a wall, and shoot a rocket. Then take off calmly and not worry about any repercussions. It's the wild, wild middle east!
If those borders are full of patrolling troops, any such incident can at least, and hopefully, be tracked and dealt with swiftly (of more effectively than as things stand right now). If I were to use the ghetto analogy, if a cop hears a shot, at least he can run that way and hopefully make an arrest. No cop = who cares then! more shots!
I mean, if you don't think this would work, then please propose something that you think would work, and by this I mean something other than "let's just sit and wait". It's been done and it doesn't work.
Peace has been reached after 4 weeks of complete chaos. We must put all our efforts into maintaing it.
-virtual tourist
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Firstly, and with all due respect, if Hisbollah can make it through Israeli lines to kidnap their troops, nothing your army or mine has got is going to stop them. I appreciate your point about a numerically patrolled border and think it has some merit, but if you do use force againt Hisbollah, they are going to kill you. En mass. It won't be Isreali and Lebanese dead you will be reading about. The Israeli's will bomb you too, if you get in the way, make no mistake.
Hisbollah might just kill you for being in Lebanon alone, for that matter. Just for the arrogance of thinking you can simply rock up to their country with your guns and start telling them what to do. You can fantasise about having an effective force capable of disarming them, but that's all it is, a fantasy.
Secondly, how are you planning to stop Hisbollah rockets. They have a range of up to 36 miles. You would have to occupy over half of Lebanon to do this. Israel couldn't do it with 30,000 combat Veterans, what exactly did you think you were going to do?
Sorry, but I can't propose to you something that might bring peace to middle east and doesn't involve genocide. I don't have all the answers and I appreciate that it is easier find fault than it is to create a viable solution.
Nonetheless, what you propose is not a viable solution. No amount of wishful thinking will make it so.
Look man, I see all those same hurdles, obstacles and problems as you do, but I refuse to let this go "as usual" because that only leads to "more of the same".
A peace agreement has been reached. I see that as progress. I don't know if that will last or not, but the fact that all sides have agreed on this gives me hopes.
This force would not indeed contain the entire hezbollah army, that is not the point of this force. For that we can only hope that they, as an organization, keep within their borders.
But let's go back to the "beginning" (if there is any such thing by now) of this mess, the kidnapping of that israeli soldier in Gaza. What this force would aim to do is control the most hot-headed and extremist members of these organizations (hezbollah and hamas) who decide to act on their own, independently of what the organization as a group thinks.
Many of these attacks are not decided as policy by these groups, especially Hamas. They just happen. Somewhere some cell, some guy, just gets all hotheaded and decides to just impatiently take things into their own hands. The group as a whole then endorses them not to seem fragmented, but their power over the entire organization is haphazardly maintained.
That's how the israeli soldier kidnapping happened in Gaza. It wasn't decided and approved in parliament by the Hamas group. It just took place. But they're equally so foolishly proud that they all nodded back. That needs to end as well.
That kidnapping in turn, was already in response to Israel's abduction of 2 palestinians, which didn't even make the mainstream news.
If it were to escalate to aparent full-on war with any of these groups, then yeah, we don't need to deal with that. Pull out right away. We're there to help police and patrol, not to win any battles.
This stupid, petty bickoring has to face some resistance, that's all. The palestinian armed forces can't keep an eye on all of this. They barely exist, much less patrol.
It's one big awful mess, but we have to help somehow because they alone can't. I mean, aren't u tired of this? You and I have been around for over three decades, each one filled with the same rubbish for news. I am utterly fed up with this behaviour, on all sides.
I just think that if there's any glimmer of hope, we have to take full advantage of it.
-virtual tourist
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The UN isn't going to get enough people. The EU nations won't send more then a token force (if that). All these UN actions only happen when the US says they'll do it and bring allies with them. The EU talked back and forth endlessly about Yukoslav knowing full well what was happening right in their own backyard and nothing got done until the US had enough and brought Canada, Australia, Russia, etc. with them. To me it would be embarassing that soldiers had to come from the other side of the world and stop atrocities happening in my neighborhood.
All they'll do is bitch back and forth until something bad happens there and then the area will be back in the original situation. Enough history has shown this and there's no reason to believe it will be any different this time.
No peace agreement, just a ceasefire.
Both sides still have conflicting aims. The only thing they have agreed on is to stopping shooting at each other for the moment. This isn't over, it's the eye of the hurricane.
If you go back to the beginning in Gaza as you put it, and the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier, you can see that was not the beginning, that those same hotheads were firing rockets into Israel. Israel was making airstrikes and artilllery strikes in Gaza.
You can patrol the border, but the rockets will just fly over your heads. As will the airstrikes. And sometimes they will land on you. You don't have the military capability to effectively police that border. Why kid yourself?
If you had the will and the power to disarm Hisbollah or Israel or both, it would, perhaps, be worth you going.
My five year old niece likes to help me build computers. While I appreciate the spirit, we both know that she isn't actually helping.
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The only hope for peace, is that one side recognises defeat, completely and utterly. It doesn't end until the people who live there want it to end.
Both sides have claimed victory. It isn't over. You don't have any peace to police.