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How the hybrids should be designed IMO
Anofalye
Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 7,433
I dont take into account the PvP, only the PvE aspect of the game, also, I would prolly never play an hybrid myself althought I will gladly group them, which prolly make me as neutral as someone could be on the subject. Finally, I will use EQ when I compare because EQ is the referrence in PvE MMORPG.
I think the time for the designers to create from nothing a few hybrids combo is OLD and unefficients, as only a few possibilities are open. In EQ for exemple, I consider that only the Paladin is a nice success of hybrid, any ranger will laugh when you tell them they are druid hybrids and SK will answer you : Whatever if you say they are necro hybrids...paladins will nod and agree when you say they are clerics-warrior hybrids(with a LoH). That is not a huge success, on the other hand, rangers and Sk are more a class of their own then hybrids...
I think it is time for the designers to take another approach. What can an hybrid of **** have as power no matter with what other half you combine it? You make a list, for exemple, as a chanter, I would think a chanter hybrid could be able to haste 1 person in the group only, but with the same very best haste a chanter have, another person(not the same) could be C and he could Mes 1 mob and only 1 at any giving time, but could be as strong as any mob the chanters mes. Slows, nukes, AE stuns, pets would outrage me if you gave them to a chanter hybrids, those are not the trademarks of chanters and hybrids should not have, period(except AE stuns that are way to strong on a chanter hybrids so they would have to stick with 1 single stun and nothing more, exactly like they cant have AE mes). The best charm could be allowed but not as a direct spell, as a proc that is very unlikely to goes that it place on you. That way, the chanter hybrid have access to nice stuff without overpowering a chanter ever, which is the basic idea behind an hybrid(having getto group haste could be fine, but then no single good haste can be allowed unless you want the chanters to be shafted, only 1 or the other, and I am sure any hybrid rather haste 1 person fine then ghettoly many).
You determined stuff like I did for chanter as exemple(could be different then what I did) for every class you want to allow hybrids. Then you allow any mixt the players want to do.
Now, in my exemple, the hybrids are interesting as long as they are 2 very differents aspects...we need to work more for 2 choices that are closes...we can add synergy edge, and this is what would take a lot of time, yet, those synergy edge dont need to exist at start and players know they are subject to change at any point. Synergy edge should cover weirds choices, for exemple, a player that want to be a hybrid druid and cleric, it should be allowed, even if this is silly. But with my exemple above, without a synergy edge, this choice is very weak and what should be a very good healer cant compete without those synergies edges. Yet, the lack of starting synergy edges should not make it so you dont do it. A chanter-wizard hybrid should be a good nuker and interesting to play it, but should be 1 huge step behind a wizard in nuking even if it is still a pure caster, and he should nuke MUCH better then a chanter, but the synergys edges, could, in time, cover all those details. Anyway, most hybrids players wont start such close and weird related class the first day as their main toon.
To all players that say we should just put skills instead of working that much on class for hybrids I will just answer this: Grouping need class for the casuals, skills are nice for solo and for harcores, but for grouping and for casuals to be welcome in groups, we need to work in class.
I really think that working on each half individually is the start, then, you can work on adding edges if those 2 halfs are close and deserve those edges(2 intel casters half are pure casters, 2 wisdom casters halfs are great healers class, better then the weaker side is, yet worser then a cleric)...alternatively, you can prohibit close class in hybrids...yet...it would be much richer to allow it and give them the strenght they deserve to late then to just prohibit it, no? (with a big red warning saying those are close and the devs didnt put the time in it yet to enhance them rightfully and they thereby are doomed to lack for years to come)
Later all
Anofalye
PS: Nope, I would not play an hybrid myself, yet, as a chanter, I can say what would piss me and what I would not mind...an hybrid that does as well as me but only once is fine...and in the case of action related spell like charm, on a proc that is unlikely to goes it is fine as well, they dont need to be weakers spells, yet, they should have awfull issues with their mana pool should they keep casting a lot. 
- "Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Comments
∙name: EViLD0G
∙clan: [EXE]
∙playing: EQ, SIMS, AC, AC2, DAoC, FFXI, RS
∙planning: Ryzom
Hiya,
An hybrid: A mixt of 2 class, generally warrior and something else in the actual games. (Paladin is an hybrid of a warrior and a cleric, Rangers should be an hybrid of druids and warrior(but when they up the druid spells, they didnt up the ranger spells and focus on making them a new class), Shadowknight are somewhat an hybrid of a warrior and a necro(they where left behind on the necro thing, very badly)).
In my example, if an hybrid could be of any of these(half and half): Warrior, Rogue, Monk, Cleric, Druid, Shaman, enchanter, Mages, Wizard and Necro, that would make exactly 45 hybrids possibilities in theory. In actual form, there are 3 hybrids class in EQ. It would be to hard to specifically design 45 hybrids class 1 by 1, this is why they should focus on each of the 10 basic class individually and design what is acceptable for an hybrid from such a class(I mostly suggest chanter already). If you add 1 more class for the hybrid pool, you add 10 new hybrids, 2 more class is 21 new hybrids and so on...
All the Warrior-Rogue, Warrior-Monk, Rogue-Monk(ninja?), Cleric-Druids, Cleric-Shaman, Druid-Shaman, Enchanter-Wizard, Enchanter-Mage, Enchanter-Necromancer, Wizard-Mage, Wizard-Necromancer and Mage-Necromancer would need a *Synergy* bonus afterward althought(unless you prevent them, but should not prevent them, just make that Synergy Bonus when you have time, maybe years after the release if needed). Basically, those weirds hybrids are pure melee/healer/caster depending on what group class come back twice...Anyway, this still leave a pure raw 35 hybrids that should work relatively fine without much work(still can need minor adjustements), only design 10...and the 10 last Hybrids in need of a *Synergy* Bonus who will need much more thoughts, in times. For those wondering, Chanter-Shaman is not deserving any Synergy Bonus(maybe a few more minor adjustements althought), even if the effects are often similar, they are not drawing energy from the same place, yet, maybe they and the Druid-Wizard can have a little tiny nice aspect to make them interesting(not overpowering). For exemple, wizards and druid hybrids should have all the self ports spells only, no group spell to port others allowed for Hybrids. Basic rule is, Hybrid can do about everything for a LOT of their tiny mana pool, yet, they always have single version, never group version...TL can be allowed in my exemple for a wizard hybrid, but should cost like 2 bubbles of mana per TL(or more).
All Class without Synergy bonus should have a very limited mana pool and see each spell cost a LOT more then what it cost for a pure caster, the idea is that they CAN do it and do it nice, not to do it a lot, they are...hybrids!
The Synergy Bonus is there to make them as efficient as a pure member of this line, in their own way. The Synergy bonus should never make any of the basic class fall behind, the basics class need to be on the front line, very strong and appealing. In the case they share spells(chanter-wizard exemple), all what they share in common should have the same mana cost of the most efficient side(not the case before that synergy), so a chanter-wizard should use the wizard mana cost for all spell nuking for 1100 or less(chanters 65 nuke for 1100 in EQ, prior crit and effects), for the best nukes, it should be between what the hybrid cost would have been and the wizard cost for same nuke power(same can be apply with healing in healers types), he can buff 1 person(or mes 1 mob) at a VERY high price(wizards dont have buffs so the cost there is very high, purely from the hybrid aspect) which end in making that little buffing aspect(and mezing) possible and very nice, but come at the expense of the best nukes not been efficients anymore, been able to self port only. A wizard and a chanter should be SLIGHTLY better then 2 chanter-wizards hybrids, but it is still possible to work with 2 hybrids for a group(would the hybrids use 1100 nukes to be mana efficients or will they want to kill fast at the expense of mana efficiency considering they already pay a very high price to buff group partially(leaving some members unbuffed, yet, those needing the less))
Basically, an hybrid NEED to have access to the nicest stuff the real class have(be it buffs, nukes, healing, melee or whatever) but be 1 huge step behind(huge mana cost, small mana pool, impossible to buff more then 1 person, losing all melee edges when the stamina bar is depleted and be very weak then or whatever) unless they choose 2 hybrids of the same group and then, they have a synergy bonus that should never make the basic class trivials in any form.
- "Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
∙name: EViLD0G
∙clan: [EXE]
∙playing: EQ, SIMS, AC, AC2, DAoC, FFXI, AW, RS
∙planning: Ryzom
Well,
After some thoughts on the subject, I got a huge opinion change.
I think there should be hybrids choices, not class choices. Picking 2 hybrids halfs that goes well together result in a class like we know them. Dont it make sense that your 2 choices at start are adventurer-adventurer(sound better then peasant or commoner), and with time you add the halfs you want to replace an adventurer side, and progressively, not directly to the last choice. I mean, someone that know for sure he want to melee and do nothing else, but not sure of what class, could put both half on a fighter sub path, but not yet specialised.
Basically all you do is divide the class we know in 2 halfs, and someone that want to be that class just pick those 2 halfs and poof, she is. The synergy aspect does matter a lot here, because it need to take into account if the result is a pure melee, a pure caster, a pure healer...in order to make the result very strong in that field. Group spells should be awarded only to strong synergies(maybe not even all synergies). That way if some class where having to much stuff, you divide them in 3 halfs instead of nerfing them in a sequel game you launch, some class where way to weak, you divide them and add whatever stuff you want to each half.
Now, halfs that are far from each other results in *weaker* toon, yet, their versality is their strenght. Toons that are made of 2 close halfs get the according synergies bonus.
Yes, this is more work then designing a few class, but instead of allowing 20- class, you allow a very insane amount of class, and the more you add in future expensions, the amount of possibilities increase exponentially. The hardest work is not in actually designing the 2 halfs, it is the synergy bonus system.
For the players that love it simple and with 1 class only, there should be underline path that a player can be baby walked into them, so they know the synergy bonus is better, all the greatest synergy bonus should be easy to figure as usually, whoever is helping you progress should underline them much (and cry if you pick a warrior-wizard combo as they feel you are wasting your talent and blablabla, yet, you can do it and it is not a bad choice, it just lack a synergy bonus because it is to versatile...and later, it is easier to play on the synergy bonus then on the class, players never like a nerf and never will, but instead of nerfing 1/15 of the server, you nerf maybe 1/50, when you cant walk around the nerfing).
Anyway, just an idea...
But skills that allow everything is a group system killer...and static class annoy so many folks.
Myself dont mind much and would stick to the strongest synergy bonus, which mean, a basic class. But some players actually want those options.
Honestly, it depend on the priorities of the MMORPG in question and how much efforts they can put on such *details*.
But such a system also open doors for handling the soloing and the grouping system differently, oh yes, so many nice doors opened with such a thing.
Not to mention, if the system allow you to play all toon under 1 name, you can then mixt whatever half with whatever half you already developp and see the result while you are set that way, anyway, this is more option. This is not what would make the success or failure of a game, but it certainly can help.
- "Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I've long viewed a hybrid class as a forced concept, and am working on coming up with a system to really make hybrid classes (or any classes, for that matter) shine.
My concept is this: At character creation, the player chooses a basic class (warrior/mage/healer etc). The skill and level progression allows the player to branch off this way: each class has an even number of skill blocks/trees/columns. Below the split level, the player has access to half of these. At the split level, the player is given a choice: To keep progressing in their original pathway, thereby gaining access to all of the class skills, or to choose another path and begin to branch off into it. The catch is this: The second set of skills, be it the original or new class, can only max out at half of the skill's full potential (level 10 instead of level 20, for example). I won't release anymore than that, because it's a heck of a lot more intricate than that, but it would really allow players to expand their characters. Hybrids are created by character choice, and can truly be called so; a ranger really would be a mix between a warrior and a druid, with the warrior being the primary and the druid being the sub-class. on the other hand, a shepherd or wanderer would be a druid primary/warrior sub-class. Simple yet expandable. I think it's the way to really create a class system.
*Note* these are all my own ideas, and weren't actually inspired by any current games or games in development. If there are any games with such a class structure, please point them out, as i have no knowledge of them, and would also like to play them and see how it works. This is all theoretical.
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Well, the idea is nice, but 1 fact remain, the hybrid side is to weak to be really interesting. A hybrid want access to the best, just have a very limited, unefficient and hard to use access...to the best. I am tired to see a hybrid caster cast completely useless stuff, I rather see it hellishly unefficient in mana for effect, limiting compare to a real class(can buff 1 person only, can nuke once per 10 minutes only or whatever), yet, access to some of the nicest stuff without breaking the balance. 2 hybrids should not replace a pure caster and a pure tank combo, but it should be an interesting alternative nonetheless! Actual form make it so weak nobody will think of taking 2 hybrids instead of taking the appropriate 2 pure class, althought I want the pure 2 class to remain a nicer choice, the 2 hybrid deserve more then been junk!
2 rangers or 1 warrior + 1 druid should be an option, althought the warrior and the druid should be slightly better, it should still be an option, not been discarded without consideration.
- "Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren