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I am sick and tired of classes! 100% skill based, please.
Steelarm011
Member Posts: 187
Yes, the title says it all.
Ive been browsing the list of games in development, and I came across another game which looked promising - Gods and Heroes, hoping that maybe, just maybe, they wouldnt have classes. Wrong. I was wondering what was one of the biggest problems in MMO's today, what makes me shake my head looking at the "released games" list saying that almost every game on there is crap (with the exception of a few goodies - EVE for example). However, EVE is a unique game. EVE has a steep learning curve, and takes a long time to advance in that game.
As we all probably know one of the biggest problems in games is the level grind. Grinding from one level to another is not fun. It restricts you in so many things that you really have a linear path. You cant PvP properly because even someone who is 3 or 4 levels higher than you has a rather large advantage. You go to instance to instance, area to area seeking to get that next level to proceed to endgame.
That is why we need to abolish classes. Make it 100% skill based.
I am and I'm sure many people are sick and tired of playing an "archtype" of having a specific role that chains them to a job they have to do. Your skills are now limited to your job. At every game I see, I see the exact same classes. You have your:
Offensive melee (I have all these cool moves then...oops, I die, i have no armor)
Defensive melee (tank) (Takes an hour to kill something solo)
Offensive caster (nuke, nuke nuke...see the same graphic x1000 times)
Defensive caster/healer (click on name, heal, repeat)
stealth (I go invisible and I cut things up but everything else sucks)
ranged (click, shoot, click, shoot)
And thats it! Almost every game has the same thing. And Im sick of it. You cant customize your character to how you like to play the most. Im sure all of you would like to play to how you like it. Classes gives you a job, and makes alot of skills unaccessable to you. Some parts of the game you never see because of this restriction. Take WoW, for example. Depending on how much time you have, you may get to endgame in 1 or 2 or 3 characters. But you still havent seen the other half of the game. And Im sure no one wants to make multiple characters and go through the hassle of building them up all over again. Wouldnt it be nice for your character to be you?
By taking away classes and making it skill based, you can do what you want. You and be what you want. PvE wont be so much of a grind because you simply play how you want your skills to advance. PvP is on more even ground and less developed characters can still have a chance to take on the big boys. Plus you dont have the silly, ridiculous "rock paper scissor" PvP theme that just ruins alot of the fun when fighting. (warrior beats rogue, rogue beats mage, mage beats warrior). I should be able to enter a fight and NOT say "well hes a mage and I'm a warrior, I'm going down."
I know Mythic has taken a step in the right direction, but they still have the classes. The change they made was to copy WoW in a sense and make multiple talent trees. We know Darkfall is skillbased and the gamers jump for joy, but there is that chance that its vaporware.
I really am hoping that some company hears our plea and makes a good, solid MMO thats skill based. I will jump for the chance to play it. I dont want to play a role, or play a job. I want to play me. I know Ive seen posts like this before but...even so, I need to vent 
Thoughts, comments, please keep the flaming down to a minimum, please 
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
Comments
EVE
Actually i do not believe that skill based is the right answer.
Lateral Advancement is. Meaning you gain more and wider skills and powers when progressing instead of rising core attributes or hit points in huge quantities (small increments are fine).
This, however, is independent on the system used. WAR, for example, will have a hybrid class-skill system with lateral advancement. SWG Post-CU had a skill system but with vertical advancement.
The former, if get to release, will rule, the latter wasn't such a good thing anymore, even being a skill based system and all.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
I am a little confused, but from what I have interperated, lateral advancement is basically leveling without the levels, and it doesnt address the issue of classes. Just what Ive gotten from your post.
Maybe having a hybrid skill/level system is best. I know AC was a genius game and had a 75% skill 25% level based system that worked perfectly. It was truly ahead of its time.
From what Ive seen WAR will definitly be big, and Mythic has taken a step in the right direction in including some type of customization. But its still highly restricted. I dont want to play a shaman or a soldier. I want to play ME.
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
*shrug* classes and skills to me are the same with the very end
result. The process to get there is different, but its basically the
same overall.
One thing i do have to say, is with classes, devs are allowed MUCH more
freedom in design inbetween classes then the skills in a skill based system.
This topic is as old as time, and just for the record.
Class based does not equal a grind. And skill based does not mean there won't be a grind. That's simply a games features and not the systems features.
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Do I ever sleep?
Currently Playing: Metal Gear Online, Call of Duty 4, Grand Theft Auto 4, Oblivion. (Taking a break from MMO's)
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Kibs
Avatar by Ema
Playing: The Saga of Ryzom since march 2004
Do I want a healer who swapped resurrect for melee defense? Not really. Do I want a tank that swapped half his hp for a big axe? Not really. Although SWG got the combination right the idea in general suffers from an immense imbalance - do you want to remove something essential from an existing class to swap it or do you want to give people so many skills that they may as well be every class at once? Eve has no cap - the result is that you come across someone 2 even 3 years ahead of you in skills that has so much you jus cant touch him.
Afterall - if everybody learns a skill tree then nobody is unique for having it.
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Eve is not all about character skills! Player skill is much more important. Powergaming your way to lv60 simply doesn't exist in games like Eve.
PS Eve and Ryzom are good skill based games.
Skillbased? No thanks!
What games need is bring the skills back into the hand of the player, and that wont happen as long as game developers keep reusing that stupid idea developed by the D&D crew. Letting numbers decide how good you are at something is what ruins the competetiveness of MMORPGs. Why? Simple, you need to spend forever in order to be able to compete with anyone, and unless you start at launch, there will ALWAYS be those who have played longer than you.
By putting the skill development into the hands of the players, you can go from noob to pro in one day, depending on your play style. That is the only true way to make games, but as I already said, it's all up to the D&D freakish game developers that think everything has to be about numbers.
However what game developers fail to understand is that the mainstream doesn't understand numbers. That's why MMORPGs rarely do well with the general population, but if someone was to make a game where all you need to be good is move your mouse right and press WSAD right, then people will understand it. It has to be simple. It has to be "If you hit him, he loses an arm or dies" and "If you move away from the swing, you survive". But the way it is now, it's "First you have you have to calculate your dmg stat which is weapon lvl * weapon dur * weapon skill + extra weapon stats - 1/8th of your str and dex, and then you have to load up 800 pots and click them faster than the other guy who has the exact same stats and gear, and if you do that for 10 minutes you'll win, because you don't really fight, you just drink red stuff that makes your hp bar go up"... And people don't understand that!
So what we need is less hardcoded skills, less numbers (levels, stats, wtfever) and more player skills. Let people be good. Don't let their characters be good, and to hell with all the freaks that whine about not having good reflexes or being a good aimer. One thing that's good about player skills is that you can learn them. Anyone can learn to aim good or click fast, but not anyone can stand sitting 12+ hours a day in front of a screen clicking pots, just to be the best.
Edit: Just my 42 cents anyway.
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No Userbar here, sorry to disappoint.
I whole heartly agree.
I've been trying to find a new MMO to play and the first thing I do is to examinate if it has a level based system (derived from classical D&D) or not. If I do it's off the list. I just can't stand that system after playing WoW.
I remember many years ago rejecting playing after the D&D ruleset in our early tabletop roleplaying games as it was regarded RP immersion breaking and still is. Ex. why does the town sherif tell me to go clean out a nest of ugly level 5 critters when he's level 80 him self and his mere presence would kill the buggers off in no time?...
Interesting to see Ryzom being mentioned as it has already caught my attention and I'm about to try the trial.
Eve is NOT a good skills based game at all not even close.
When I shoot a laser my skills in lasers should go up. Using a training system that requires time is not what I would call a good skills based system. Nothing is as open ended as people think. You are still stuck to race roles and a linear progression with your skills in eve.
The wait for a decent skills based game continues.
Ah yes, I wasn't sure about Asheron's Call, as I had only played the sequel for a short time, and I believe that had levels?
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No Userbar here, sorry to disappoint.
Ah yes, I wasn't sure about Asheron's Call, as I had only played the sequel for a short time, and I believe that had levels?
Yes it had levels.
There is only one game that I know of that is 100% dedicated to skill based system but that wont be out till 2008 or something. Kaos War. Im afraid it is a breed of mmo that wont be with us much longer unless some companies step up and take action. I miss skill systems.
Just to play the devils advocate, I will argue on some of the other points, because I like a good debate. But let me first start off with saying that I want a skill based system as well, or better yet, a class/skill bases combo.
Okay, so you say you don't grind from level to level in a skill based game. I say you are wrong. You don't go out and kill a hundred creatures because you want to in a skill based game. You kill a hundred creatures, because that is the only way to raise your sword skill. In other words you are leveling up your sword skill. So the point I am arguing here is the fact that you still have grinding in the sense that you are leveling up skills instead of a class.
I would like to see a system like SWG old system. You have several Professions and several elite professions as well. You were allotted a certain amount of points that you were able to spend in any of those profession trees that you wanted. A certain combination of skill trees would unlock the elite profession. But you could fully customize the way you made that character and you could change it at any time. There also were no levels at the beginning of the game.
What people do without a class based system is just create their own class according to their own play styles. Most create something very similar to an archetype system, which is why I think Developers started using class based systems. Someone wants to heal and use a sword and shield as well as have some defensive buffs...bam he has a Paladin class. Now granted, I still feel that the level system sucks, because a level dictating a fight is just wrong along with a person being able to see your level in the first place.
I liked DAOC's class/skill based system as well, but not the levels. If they made the levels invisible to everyone else it would have been a better game. But having different paths you could take with your character was interesting and added individuality.
I've played enough MMO's (11+) to be able to know how to match a person with their proper archetype. I bet if you tell me what you like to do in a MMO, I could slap a class on it. So while you say you want to play 'me,' me can be defined as a class as well if you choose a playstyle that matches with a certain archetype.
So what skills would you choose in a skill based system?
Darkfall the only real game (if it comes out)
Do I want a healer who swapped resurrect for melee defense? Not really. Do I want a tank that swapped half his hp for a big axe? Not really. Although SWG got the combination right the idea in general suffers from an immense imbalance - do you want to remove something essential from an existing class to swap it or do you want to give people so many skills that they may as well be every class at once? Eve has no cap - the result is that you come across someone 2 even 3 years ahead of you in skills that has so much you jus cant touch him.
Afterall - if everybody learns a skill tree then nobody is unique for having it.
2 years is Bull. It takes 8 months to be able to fly a Battleship as well as a vet. Including Tech 2 fittings.
Want to fly something smaller and it takes even less time.
Having a single skill tree is not what makes your character unique, it's the combination of all of your skills that does it. In a skill-based game there is room for many different character builds.
So that would make everyone want to self heal, melee like a god and nuke from a far. Therefor, making almost everyone the same.
Doesn't sound fun to me.