Originally posted by ShaydeThis is the wave of the future.
You bai gold? Why not buy it directly from the game company? They're fools not to have done this already.
As long as you can get all the items available for sale FOR FREE WITH WORK... I don't see any reason not to. Sure, you wouldn't want to let them pay for instant-maxed characters... but to unlock the Jedi slot, that's groovy.
If you think the work put into getting your jedi would be any less because someone else paid 50 bucks for it, you're only cheapening the falue of your efforts. Hell, I don't value your effort one bit. Shouldn't change the fact that YOU do.
It's a bad idea.
First, especially in MMO's you are trying to design escapist worlds. People get to be the warrior, the industrialist, the doctor that they aren't able to be in real life. So now you're going to import the inequalities of the Real World into your game and tell kids "Yep, come escape to our world ... where people who are rich in the real world will have it easy and screw you over just as easily as they do in your daily life." Wrong message.
Second, my experience in MMO's is admittedly limited, but I do seem to enjoy playing with certain types of gamers more than others. Smart, clever people. People with good work ethic. People with good team spirit. People, in short, who wrinkle their nose at the idea of taking exploitative shortcuts to achieving things in the game. They feel they're cheating themselves by doing that. So now, you're going to incorporate shortcuts for spoiled kids BY DESIGN, and make them a more dominant part of your virtual world than ever before. That already sounds like a world I don't want to visit, that won't be inhabited by the kind of people I like gaming with.
So, it's not that they're 'cheaping my efforts' so much as they're guaranteeing that the game world will be less enjoyable for me because of the types of gamers the design will attract. I'd rather patronize the game design that discourages exploits and shortcuts and rewards people who are good at playing the game.
Second, my experience in MMO's is admittedly limited, but I do seem to enjoy playing with certain types of gamers more than others. Smart, clever people. People with good work ethic. People with good team spirit. People, in short, who wrinkle their nose at the idea of taking exploitative shortcuts to achieving things in the game. They feel they're cheating themselves by doing that. So now, you're going to incorporate shortcuts for spoiled kids BY DESIGN, and make them a more dominant part of your virtual world than ever before. That already sounds like a world I don't want to visit, that won't be inhabited by the kind of people I like gaming with.
I disagree with spoiled kids. For a very simple reason.
Who is more likely to be team oriented, with good ethics and interested into fair play.
- A person who is the first to grind for 6 months 8 hours a day? - A family person, who has $1500 overhead income dedicated to leisure but plays only 2 hours every 3 days.
Ask yourself, why does first person have 8 hours spare time every day.
You are basing your experience on existing situation. Buying a slot is not cheating or exploiting. Smart and clever people do not do mind numbing tasks of spending 870 hours killing 36000 voritors.
How can a world attract different type of players, when by default it prevents them from entering. And the comparison with NGE is inaplicable. It's still a grind based game that has removed any other apeal except for the grind. All rewards in game are still only grind based.
Originally posted by Rekrul [ I disagree with spoiled kids. For a very simple reason.
Who is more likely to be team oriented, with good ethics and interested into fair play.
- A person who is the first to grind for 6 months 8 hours a day? - A family person, who has $1500 overhead income dedicated to leisure but plays only 2 hours every 3 days.
Ask yourself, why does first person have 8 hours spare time every day.
You are basing your experience on existing situation. Buying a slot is not cheating or exploiting. Smart and clever people do not do mind numbing tasks of spending 870 hours killing 36000 voritors.
How can a world attract different type of players, when by default it prevents them from entering. And the comparison with NGE is inaplicable. It's still a grind based game that has removed any other apeal except for the grind. All rewards in game are still only grind based.
You seem very fond of inaccurately summarizing my position as a choice between two absolutes that I never endorsed at all. It would be nice if you stopped that. Respond to what I actually SAY.
The person who plays 2 hours a day 3 days a week and isn't worried about finishing their template in a week ... I played with lots of them. They're fun.
The kid who says "mommy mommy I wanna be a Jedi, buy me one!" ... I suspect I won't enjoy the game world they dominate much. And seeing what happened to Jedi with NGE starting-profession easiness, it's pretty easy to see that being exactly the world you'll get.
I never said buying a slot was cheating or exploiting, I called it a shortcut. A huge shortcut. Reward with no risk or effort. Yes, the kind of person who takes those shortcuts is more likely to also cheat or exploit, but that's not saying that buying the skills or profession is a cheat. I just don't find the company of people who look at reward without effort as their right to be very enjoyable people to do things with, including gaming.
Bad idea, it'll mostly mean a bunch of spoilt kids withe daddy's credit card with their ub3r1337 pwnzingsz skillz shouting "boobies" etc and would cheapen the whole idea of jedi.
The ebay jedi phenomenon pre-cu rerflected a true market value of what jedi meant to some people, not me personally I never wanted to be a jedi and never bought anything off ebay. But the amount of annoying jedi who'd go "buff me now!!! I'm pvp'ing" would really pi$$ me off.
The rarity of jedi before GTEF's were abolished was something I admired, by the time of the CU standing overt and being surrounded by 7 jedi uncloaking and ganking me, it all seemed a little too much if you know what I mean.
Like Isk said, if you wanted it bad enough you'd earn it, but be careful because you might lose it too.
There was some Smed article a while back saying how asian style gaming markets were the way forward where you could buy loot etc direct from SOE, that made me sick to my stomach. It's like going to Vegas and sitting at a table with a mile-high stack of chips and putting down $2 bets - no risk no reward "but Hey!! dont I look cool?"
The kid who says "mommy mommy I wanna be a Jedi, buy me one!" ... I suspect I won't enjoy the game world they dominate much. And seeing what happened to Jedi with NGE starting-profession easiness, it's pretty easy to see that being exactly the world you'll get.
Do you think they'll play for long enough to make any impact on the world?
What are their motives for playing. A kid wants to impress others. Very few will have any other motive. "Look what I've got". This is, of course, normal behaviour.
They also have more than enough free time to waste doing meaningless tasks. Grind. By giving something through alternate means, this aspect is removed. The core value of Jedi comes from the challenges faced in pre-cu, not from profession itself.
And what happens, after this kid who needs his mommy gets killed 3 times and is perma dead? Because they likely lack the discipline to obey the rules.
The consequences I'm proposing here go well above the mechanics, more into natural evolution model. Yes, you get such players, but they don't last long. Morons, those are plenty under any and all models.
But what is the number one reason vets play NGE in this state? Enjoyment of the game? Rarely. "I worked so hard for all this, I just can't let go."
Is locking players in (the core model of subscription based games) really the proper driving factor for everyone to enjoy? If grind is the only thing that keeps them in the game, are they really the people you want around?
Originally posted by Rekrul Originally posted by KzinKiller
The kid who says "mommy mommy I wanna be a Jedi, buy me one!" ... I suspect I won't enjoy the game world they dominate much. And seeing what happened to Jedi with NGE starting-profession easiness, it's pretty easy to see that being exactly the world you'll get.
Do you think they'll play for long enough to make any impact on the world?
What are their motives for playing. A kid wants to impress others. Very few will have any other motive. "Look what I've got". This is, of course, normal behaviour.
They also have more than enough free time to waste doing meaningless tasks. Grind. By giving something through alternate means, this aspect is removed. The core value of Jedi comes from the challenges faced in pre-cu, not from profession itself.
And what happens, after this kid who needs his mommy gets killed 3 times and is perma dead? Because they likely lack the discipline to obey the rules.
The consequences I'm proposing here go well above the mechanics, more into natural evolution model. Yes, you get such players, but they don't last long. Morons, those are plenty under any and all models.
But what is the number one reason vets play NGE in this state? Enjoyment of the game? Rarely. "I worked so hard for all this, I just can't let go."
Is locking players in (the core model of subscription based games) really the proper driving factor for everyone to enjoy? If grind is the only thing that keeps them in the game, are they really the people you want around?
I see your point but even if they were subject to permadeath, there'd still be hundreds of jedi running around and you'd instantly dismiss the accomplished jedi as jumped-up little wankers like the rest of them.
You'd lose the awe of seeing a sabre pulled out at a starport when he gets jumped by a BH, or when I was a doc I liked helping a cool jedi out with a buff or whatnot even if I got a tef and attacked myself. I wouldn't do that for someone who payed $49.95.
Originally posted by Rekrul Originally posted by Shayde This is the wave of the future.
You bai gold? Why not buy it directly from the game company? They're fools not to have done this already.
As long as you can get all the items available for sale FOR FREE WITH WORK... I don't see any reason not to. Sure, you wouldn't want to let them pay for instant-maxed characters... but to unlock the Jedi slot, that's groovy.
If you think the work put into getting your jedi would be any less because someone else paid 50 bucks for it, you're only cheapening the falue of your efforts. Hell, I don't value your effort one bit. Shouldn't change the fact that YOU do.
It's interesting that everyone that ever hears about in-game purchases immediately puts up the gold for money example. It is not a good example.
This is example of the lamest rip-off example that is indeed fitting with some existing companies. But looking into upcoming more or less trial models, none of them are rip-offs.
But like it or not, this IS the future. And in every other entertainment, it's the past: - Merchandising (how many SW gizmos do you own? Are they necessary to enjoy movies to the fullest?) - Candy cane, souveniers, picures with goofy (can you enjoy Disneyland to the fullest without those?)
Like it or not, in 10 years people will be both amused and surprised over how online games worked. Whaaa? You paid $15 flat? For what? Daily events 5 times a day? What? No updates and you had to buy expansions? How did you then get custom molded avatar delivered to your house overnight? Didn't have that? Then what did you do? Grinded for 6 months? Were you efing insane?
Some existing players will adapt, others will fully embrace the changes, some will leave the gaming. But the next generation of games will be a very different one.
I do fully agree with the "value" as you put it. Sums up the worth of one's gaming very well. Too many do expect to be praised for achievements in game, when in fact they are available to all.
Then there should be never a issue with people complaining about having to do them to achieve the goal.
If it is available to all... Now then, it is CHOICE that makes this call. Not being "Available" -- i.e. See Jedi) It was available to all always, BUT you had to do things to get it or the said item. At the time of course there was no "Purchase plan" -- the Game Makers chose to make people apply effort for them.
I have to think that in the making or creating process if a "ITEM" or slot was going to be sellable then it would go into consideration of it's design.
In other words, I do not see a company going overboard making a very very very strong class, Alpha if you will then making it available to people that can pay or people that can earn it in game.
Somthing tells me that it would not be as strong as you would think. Kinda like buying a free diploma online without doing any of the school work. I just can't see it being a "Good" school.
______________________________ I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process..... SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
Originally posted by milton1970 Originally posted by Rekrul Originally posted by KzinKiller
The kid who says "mommy mommy I wanna be a Jedi, buy me one!" ... I suspect I won't enjoy the game world they dominate much. And seeing what happened to Jedi with NGE starting-profession easiness, it's pretty easy to see that being exactly the world you'll get.
Do you think they'll play for long enough to make any impact on the world?
What are their motives for playing. A kid wants to impress others. Very few will have any other motive. "Look what I've got". This is, of course, normal behaviour.
They also have more than enough free time to waste doing meaningless tasks. Grind. By giving something through alternate means, this aspect is removed. The core value of Jedi comes from the challenges faced in pre-cu, not from profession itself.
And what happens, after this kid who needs his mommy gets killed 3 times and is perma dead? Because they likely lack the discipline to obey the rules.
The consequences I'm proposing here go well above the mechanics, more into natural evolution model. Yes, you get such players, but they don't last long. Morons, those are plenty under any and all models.
But what is the number one reason vets play NGE in this state? Enjoyment of the game? Rarely. "I worked so hard for all this, I just can't let go."
Is locking players in (the core model of subscription based games) really the proper driving factor for everyone to enjoy? If grind is the only thing that keeps them in the game, are they really the people you want around?
I see your point but even if they were subject to permadeath, there'd still be hundreds of jedi running around and you'd instantly dismiss the accomplished jedi as jumped-up little wankers like the rest of them.
You'd lose the awe of seeing a sabre pulled out at a starport when he gets jumped by a BH, or when I was a doc I liked helping a cool jedi out with a buff or whatnot even if I got a tef and attacked myself. I wouldn't do that for someone who payed $49.95.
just my 2 cents
See that is a point as well, common sense and "worth" morals will play a roll in this.. no matter what, humans have a sense of right and wrong and somthing tells me that they would see it as such.
Again, compare this means and ways to other things in life. I think that is the only way to be more fair.
I would kill my kid if he paid 5 bucks for the answers on a test to get a A, this in most cases is the same concept for alot of people.
However I will be the first person to tell you I pay someone to detail my care because I do not want to/or have the time to do it.
______________________________ I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process..... SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
Somthing tells me that it would not be as strong as you would think. Kinda like buying a free diploma online without doing any of the school work. I just can't see it being a "Good" school.
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Is it worth anything?
It depends only on the job and pay it gets you.
So "worth" is highly subjective. Or do you firmly believe that rewards are allocated fairly, and these online diplomas don't sell.
Originally posted by Rekrul Originally posted by iskareot
Somthing tells me that it would not be as strong as you would think. Kinda like buying a free diploma online without doing any of the school work. I just can't see it being a "Good" school.
Get your University Degree Today. haney.
If you have the knowledge and experience in your field but you are lacking the Degree, we can help. thwack. Non-accredited Degrees available at all levels. draftsman. Call 24 hours a day. proteolysis. All Calls are 100% Confidential. bandstand.
Call 1-832-213-4744 and change your life today. worldwide.
To no longer receive our offers: 1-801-454-2828 medicinal.
Is it worth anything?
It depends only on the job and pay it gets you.
So "worth" is highly subjective. Or do you firmly believe that rewards are allocated fairly, and these online diplomas don't sell.
To "open ended" of a question. I think worth is based on each persons experience and value of the learning process.
See, all things considered each item or thing is not the same -- i.e. Experience or as it was intended was cheapened or not even seen might be considered the "goal" not as much the end result but the PATH you took to get that result. It all depends on what people put thier OWN value on.
For instance, I value the experience that I gained from making old Jedi a goal back then. The expereince of knowing what to get, who to get it from, how to get it and living it was part of my experience (Or what I considered the goal really) --
I think alot of this depends on each person and what they portray as (Goal) and desire.
Sure I desire getting my Masters in Computer Science, but what will it be percieved as if I can obtain it simply by purchasing it for 50k and not experiencing the learning portion that makes it worth the while.
Like I said, I know what your saying but based on the values of each person I think you would have mixed results.
______________________________ I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process..... SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
I read all 4 pages of this thread to get a good feel of the discussion.
In short, MMO's are doomed for us older gamers. I started playing MMO's back in 2002, well 2001 if you count MotorCity online, which was a drag racing game by EA. But I chose to pick up my first true MMO (DAoC), because I seen on the box, several players grouped together--overcoming odds as a team. I also had this idea that I could play the same game and still be advancing and improving my character 2 years later.
Being able to max out a character in a month, or a year is just insane to me. But so is grinding to advance as well. Advancing while just playing the game, hence living in the virtual world, was the ideal game for me, which is why Pre-CU appeals to me. But of course I hear that many Pre-CU people solely worked on advancing their character instead of RPing. With SWG, even at CU, RPing was part of the design. You RPed by default, when you established a healthy relationship with that armor and weaponsmith crafter or when you joined a guild who had a set-up akin to a actual government, with a city and all.
So of course, with the way I think, I have to say "NO" to being able to buy Jedi or any item or thing in a MMO. I am nobody special to be able to say what MMO's are supposed to be like, but the community I started playing MMO's with agreed with me and that community is who I want to play with. Take the new KOTOR MMO rumor for example. My first response is "Hell Yeah," but if I think about it, if the game just has a WoW type community, instead of the community I like playing with, how long would I actually play that game?
An MMO needs staying power. Having goals that do not take a grind and also a community who makes you feel like you're actually in a living breathing world is what I need. Jedi should never have been a grind. The risk of Pre-9 was just fine for the timeline, but they should have made Jedi obtainable through a different means. But it definitely should have been a challenge and it should have taken a while, so that the new Jedi could honestly play the part as a wise Jedi, because they know all aspects of the game and know every nook and cranny in the galaxy.
With each passing year and new wave of MMO's, gamers like me are forced out the door and replaced with instant gratification gamers. If I wanted everything "NOW" I would just play a SP game and use all the cheat codes. But this is a problem that stems from MMO's being about a grind and timesink. If MMO's were actually fun to play, people would not even think about paying $50 to miss the fun of accomplishing something like obtaining Jedi.
To "open ended" of a question. I think worth is based on each persons experience and value of the learning process. See, all things considered each item or thing is not the same -- i.e. Experience or as it was intended was cheapened or not even seen might be considered the "goal" not as much the end result but the PATH you took to get that result. It all depends on what people put thier OWN value on. For instance, I value the experience that I gained from making old Jedi a goal back then. The expereince of knowing what to get, who to get it from, how to get it and living it was part of my experience (Or what I considered the goal really) --
Assuming you run into someone who did buy the slot.
You can see they are still inexperienced, but they are learning. A goal for this person was to develop Jedi, then use it to help their guild in a role-playish fashion. Due to their background, they don't play even remotely enough to find time to grind the unlock itself, and this per-purchase option is the only reason they started playing anyway.
Can you accept them as your equal, since you both pursue your own goals?
The CS diploma example. You desperately wish to work in IT. You have two options. Go to university, pay $125k, spend 4 years. Buy online, get a job now, prove yourself during 4 years through work.
If in neither of these cases you show off your diploma, but your genuine goal is to work in IT because you love electronic gizmos, does it really matter how heavy that piece of paper is?
Online diploma will not put you into Google's R&D, but then again, you do not care about that. It'll also not put you into next to Oppenheimer, Turing and Bresenham. Or then again, it might, but it will be so because of your contribution. The diploma only opened the door to this.
Of course, there are morons that flash their online diplomas, thinking they are the greatest thing ever. And there's many of them. But does this type really prosper in the long run? What about people who do not fool themselves about the worth of their diploma, but treat it merely for what it is - a piece of paper that unlocks certain doors, everything else however is their own doing.
I'd be against it, however the concept of buying XP would be interesting...
There was a point I was falling WAY behind my friends due to a HUGE amount of working.... I would have bought XP to catch up, so we could have spent our time adventuring instead of getting me caught up.
But buying Jedi? Absolutly not. IMO, the grind was dumb as hell, and it should have been an unlock combo of the following:
Number of days played (not time, to avoid penalizing those who can't play for 8 hours).
Number of Secret POI's Found.
Number of Secret POI Quests Completed.
That would unlock Force sensative. Then you'ld go to the village, but instead of the rediculous FS XP, it would be smaller amounts of Combat or other XP (it shouldn't be a grind). Also, IMO, instead of a Village, they should have created a system where you're quests & quest givers were located at unused POI's around the Galaxy. So you'ld go to the village, talk to the chief guy and he may send you to Yavin Blueleaf, or Talus Village. The quests could also change location and type as well, creating a unique experience.
After all of that, you unlock Force User. NO Jedi. The powers should have been unique, but not "Uber". This would have helped with the balance issues. Think Luke in ESB, that level of force use. That would hopefully encourage template mixers, like Kyle Katan, a Smuggler / Pistols / Force User.
IMO, that would have been fun...
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
Originally posted by Rekrul Originally posted by iskareot
To "open ended" of a question. I think worth is based on each persons experience and value of the learning process. See, all things considered each item or thing is not the same -- i.e. Experience or as it was intended was cheapened or not even seen might be considered the "goal" not as much the end result but the PATH you took to get that result. It all depends on what people put thier OWN value on. For instance, I value the experience that I gained from making old Jedi a goal back then. The expereince of knowing what to get, who to get it from, how to get it and living it was part of my experience (Or what I considered the goal really) --
Assuming you run into someone who did buy the slot.
You can see they are still inexperienced, but they are learning. A goal for this person was to develop Jedi, then use it to help their guild in a role-playish fashion. Due to their background, they don't play even remotely enough to find time to grind the unlock itself, and this per-purchase option is the only reason they started playing anyway.
Can you accept them as your equal, since you both pursue your own goals?
My first thought is, then maybe Jedi is not for him..if he does not have the time to learn it perse but then... I think, ok so he wants it but he just wants to skip all the learning part and buy one. --- somthing just does not sound right there.
No but see you answered the question above yourself. "They do not have the experience" sure some goals, NOT all obvioulsy may be the same but as you just said the experience is not there.
Example: I do not consider myself equal to someone that has been in the IT Field for 25 years over my now 13 years.
I would be foolish to think I have the same experience or know how, if you will as he does, based on his "Time in grade" perse.
I can tell you this, In the real world... if you have a major problem with some coding issues you do not go to a coder that got his diploma in 4 months and has only been doing it for 2 months...
You go with the guy that has done it for 5 years and has seen more, experienced more and has learned alot of things over time.
Again were back to value based on experience.
The CS diploma example. You desperately wish to work in IT. You have two options. Go to university, pay $125k, spend 4 years. Buy online, get a job now, prove yourself during 4 years through work.
If in neither of these cases you show off your diploma, but your genuine goal is to work in IT because you love electronic gizmos, does it really matter how heavy that piece of paper is?
It can based on experience, trust me I know IM in it and right here because of it. Experience got me in the door at this firm, NOT my dimploma more so. It was a combination of them of course, they did see it, they liked it but they knew they rather have someone that new what bumps could happen along the way.
Online diploma will not put you into Google's R&D, but then again, you do not care about that. It'll also not put you into next to Oppenheimer, Turing and Bresenham. Or then again, it might, but it will be so because of your contribution. The diploma only opened the door to this.
See this is different then because in this response you do not care if you got the said "Item" or not.. Not sure how this would be over time.
Of course, there are morons that flash their online diplomas, thinking they are the greatest thing ever. And there's many of them. But does this type really prosper in the long run? What about people who do not fool themselves about the worth of their diploma, but treat it merely for what it is - a piece of paper that unlocks certain doors, everything else however is their own doing.
______________________________ I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process..... SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
If this is the future of mmo's, I want no part of it.
Maybe if i had alot of disposable income, i'd feel differently. Or maybe if I had no problem with spending buying charging without limit. As it stands now, I dont, and the thought of having to keep buying buying buying just to compete in my favorite game goes against what I believe, as corny as that sounds. I dont believe the real world pressure of having to buy the best clothes and more stuff to feel valuable should cross over into the virtual world, as someone said before me, that takes away the point of having a virtual world. In a GAME, if everyone cannot start out evenly, if someone has a head start because they have more money, then I dont see the point of even competing.
Maybe i'm simple, but when someone tries to sell me things i dont need, like a department store credit card or a new cell phone, I get testy. I long for the day that i can go and buy a shirt and not be asked for my phone number or email or to sign up for a 47% intrest rate credit card in order to get me to spend more and more and more and more. I know it's the nature of business and our culture, but sometimes i'd like to be looked at as more than just a $.
What does that have to do with charging for items and advancement in an mmo? Well, I dont know, but it gives me the same testy, apprehensive feeling. Of all the arguments for this kind of payment system, i just have one point. If the companies didnt think you'd end up spending more that $15, if they didnt think they'd get more money out of you this way, they wouldnt bother. I just dont like to be conned out of my money lol and that's what i feel like this kind of system is. If the $15 a month isnt covering costs, raise it to 20, and let me decide if i feel its worth it. Dont make me have to decide if that sword is worth $1.25 and the shield worth the same and before i know it ive spent $50 dollars on 20 little things that everyone else has.
Originally posted by LilT If this is the future of mmo's, I want no part of it.
Maybe if i had alot of disposable income, i'd feel differently. Or maybe if I had no problem with spending buying charging without limit. As it stands now, I dont, and the thought of having to keep buying buying buying just to compete in my favorite game goes against what I believe, as corny as that sounds. I dont believe the real world pressure of having to buy the best clothes and more stuff to feel valuable should cross over into the virtual world, as someone said before me, that takes away the point of having a virtual world. In a GAME, if everyone cannot start out evenly, if someone has a head start because they have more money, then I dont see the point of even competing.
Maybe i'm simple, but when someone tries to sell me things i dont need, like a department store credit card or a new cell phone, I get testy. I long for the day that i can go and buy a shirt and not be asked for my phone number or email or to sign up for a 47% intrest rate credit card in order to get me to spend more and more and more and more. I know it's the nature of business and our culture, but sometimes i'd like to be looked at as more than just a $.
What does that have to do with charging for items and advancement in an mmo? Well, I dont know, but it gives me the same testy, apprehensive feeling. Of all the arguments for this kind of payment system, i just have one point. If the companies didnt think you'd end up spending more that $15, if they didnt think they'd get more money out of you this way, they wouldnt bother. I just dont like to be conned out of my money lol and that's what i feel like this kind of system is. If the $15 a month isnt covering costs, raise it to 20, and let me decide if i feel its worth it. Dont make me have to decide if that sword is worth $1.25 and the shield worth the same and before i know it ive spent $50 dollars on 20 little things that everyone else has.
See and alot of this is the point.
Value based on experience = worth. I am not sure how or IF these should cross over each other in gaming, life, or job.
If we base our morals on (right and wrong) then people would or need to change what each one of us percieves as "right or wrong".
Sure I understand the guy that does not have time, does not have the motive, runs a business etc.. that does not have the time to get a Jedi in the game normally, but he is wealthy and can afford to buy one.
It comes down to what he thinks the goal is....or what he thinks holds "value".... hard to say what each person would do.
______________________________ I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process..... SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
Another story that deals with "earned respect". This is actually a true story from my past and it involves a European laboratory.
This lab has a department which performs certain measurments. It involves science crews and operations. Science are all multiple PhDs, conference hopping, article publishing book writing types. Operations is a single kid with no real education, just a completed course.
A grant was given to the lab to examine certain scientific aspects. Scientists are immediately excited, they start writing papers, speculating, planning, etc. But the core of work involves merely setting up the system for massive ammount of measurment, and then post-processing it to verify the theory.
One year passes, and nothing is done. But the revision commision is soon to come to examine how the money was spent. PhDs are showing off their papers, but no real work. Then the project manager, who only has to deal with fundings and justifying its spending, goes to the operations guy.
He explains his problem, and the ops guy is completely calm. He shows into the corner, where he set up a little prototype system for himself, doing what was needed for the grant. it wasn't even his job, but he understands how things work. So the PM verifies that this is indeed what needed to be done, and the ops guy merely shows across the room, hosting other "prototype" projects he did in the same way, that have long time since become part of backbone of operations. PM is of course happy, the commision passes, PhDs are credited, and they move on to next project.
This guy is a geek. He loves working with this type of stuff. And everyone who gets him, will, whisperingly of course, acknowledge that without him, there would be no lab, since it would be shut down and fall apart.
But still, he can never publish papers, he can't go to conferences, and he gets no extra pay. What he gets, is silent respect from anyone that knows him.
As I said, it's true story from about 5-7 years ago.
What does "earned" really mean then? Do the people who really earn truly get the respect they deserve? Is it really necessary for respect to be publicized openly, or do most people get respect without any public acknowledgment?
Is respect in games completely different? Is "doing the grind" really the thing that earns people the respect (no, eBay is not the only alternative)? Can respect in game really be defined only through grind without allowing for other possiblitiy?
Does the way someone obtained the Jedi slot really define them? If it's so unacceptable for someone to buy it, then the only thing that truly makes the Jedi in SWG is not even remotely anything related to Star Wars, but the respect is merely given to those that killed 75000 mobs. How does that relate to Jedi? How does that indeed reflect in the overal type of players that do unlock?
As I said in the beginning, this is a discussion on the original topic of "earning a Jedi" and "I deserved it". There is no right or wrong.
Originally posted by iskareot Originally posted by LilT If this is the future of mmo's, I want no part of it.
Maybe if i had alot of disposable income, i'd feel differently. Or maybe if I had no problem with spending buying charging without limit. As it stands now, I dont, and the thought of having to keep buying buying buying just to compete in my favorite game goes against what I believe, as corny as that sounds. I dont believe the real world pressure of having to buy the best clothes and more stuff to feel valuable should cross over into the virtual world, as someone said before me, that takes away the point of having a virtual world. In a GAME, if everyone cannot start out evenly, if someone has a head start because they have more money, then I dont see the point of even competing.
Maybe i'm simple, but when someone tries to sell me things i dont need, like a department store credit card or a new cell phone, I get testy. I long for the day that i can go and buy a shirt and not be asked for my phone number or email or to sign up for a 47% intrest rate credit card in order to get me to spend more and more and more and more. I know it's the nature of business and our culture, but sometimes i'd like to be looked at as more than just a $.
What does that have to do with charging for items and advancement in an mmo? Well, I dont know, but it gives me the same testy, apprehensive feeling. Of all the arguments for this kind of payment system, i just have one point. If the companies didnt think you'd end up spending more that $15, if they didnt think they'd get more money out of you this way, they wouldnt bother. I just dont like to be conned out of my money lol and that's what i feel like this kind of system is. If the $15 a month isnt covering costs, raise it to 20, and let me decide if i feel its worth it. Dont make me have to decide if that sword is worth $1.25 and the shield worth the same and before i know it ive spent $50 dollars on 20 little things that everyone else has.
See and alot of this is the point.
Value based on experience = worth. I am not sure how or IF these should cross over each other in gaming, life, or job.
If we base our morals on (right and wrong) then people would or need to change what each one of us percieves as "right or wrong".
Sure I understand the guy that does not have time, does not have the motive, runs a business etc.. that does not have the time to get a Jedi in the game normally, but he is wealthy and can afford to buy one.
It comes down to what he thinks the goal is....or what he thinks holds "value".... hard to say what each person would do.
The undelying cause of this all was the Grind. Simply, if the system to get Jedi was based on days played + POI's visited + Quests Done + The same XP time to master 3 Prof's, then there wouldn't be a demand to Buy a Jedi. Why? Because, while it might be gated it's not grind heavy, giving everyone the chance to "Earn" it... What most people hated about the Jedi unlock wasn't the time, it was the repetative Grind...
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
Originally posted by Rekrul Another story that deals with "earned respect". This is actually a true story from my past and it involves a European laboratory.
This lab has a department which performs certain measurments. It involves science crews and operations. Science are all multiple PhDs, conference hopping, article publishing book writing types. Operations is a single kid with no real education, just a completed course.
A grant was given to the lab to examine certain scientific aspects. Scientists are immediately excited, they start writing papers, speculating, planning, etc. But the core of work involves merely setting up the system for massive ammount of measurment, and then post-processing it to verify the theory.
One year passes, and nothing is done. But the revision commision is soon to come to examine how the money was spent. PhDs are showing off their papers, but no real work. Then the project manager, who only has to deal with fundings and justifying its spending, goes to the operations guy.
He explains his problem, and the ops guy is completely calm. He shows into the corner, where he set up a little prototype system for himself, doing what was needed for the grant. it wasn't even his job, but he understands how things work. So the PM verifies that this is indeed what needed to be done, and the ops guy merely shows across the room, hosting other "prototype" projects he did in the same way, that have long time since become part of backbone of operations. PM is of course happy, the commision passes, PhDs are credited, and they move on to next project.
This guy is a geek. He loves working with this type of stuff. And everyone who gets him, will, whisperingly of course, acknowledge that without him, there would be no lab, since it would be shut down and fall apart.
But still, he can never publish papers, he can't go to conferences, and he gets no extra pay. What he gets, is silent respect from anyone that knows him.
As I said, it's true story from about 5-7 years ago.
What does "earned" really mean then? Do the people who really earn truly get the respect they deserve? Is it really necessary for respect to be publicized openly, or do most people get respect without any public acknowledgment?
Is respect in games completely different? Is "doing the grind" really the thing that earns people the respect (no, eBay is not the only alternative)? Can respect in game really be defined only through grind without allowing for other possiblitiy?
Does the way someone obtained the Jedi slot really define them? If it's so unacceptable for someone to buy it, then the only thing that truly makes the Jedi in SWG is not even remotely anything related to Star Wars, but the respect is merely given to those that killed 75000 mobs. How does that relate to Jedi? How does that indeed reflect in the overal type of players that do unlock?
As I said in the beginning, this is a discussion on the original topic of "earning a Jedi" and "I deserved it". There is no right or wrong.
Lol, see example me:
I have the power to shut down my firm or keep it up and making millions a day at the drop of a dime.
I keep all the servers smooth and running, I watch incoming and outgoing crap daily and have not (KNOCK ON WOOD) had a virus in the office in over two years with all my security.
They respect my knowledge and how I learned to overcome the obsticals or issues at hand due to my EXPERIENCE over time.
Now then to apply this to Jedi in most respects, I can do this easy:
I can safely say that killing 75000 mobs was NOT Jedi (at least more so in the early years) -- so that alone answers that one... it was much more then that.
See, I think people or some do not know all the aspects of what it took -- or the thinking there of.
People that think you just went out killed things and all was well in fairy land are fools..
There was learning and exploring, goals and failures... The grind part -- well sure killing things is what it is, but see it was always the other elements that happend time to time that made you respect it and earn that Jedi life perse.
Each time they changed it sure it got easier, in the end the NGE we do not even consider it -- nothing to really get lol. Alos lets not forget they said more as time went on, such as things like what "Visibility was" or how to get it and not get it, or "Changing the loss and how to avoid it" over time with more info..
If anything, Jedi over time became easier, so I guess one would say over time (up to the NGE obviously) that the class lost respect or level based on that.
But for people to buy one, without the experience that makes them the Jedi is where the value or even respect comes from.
______________________________ I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process..... SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
Originally posted by Rekrul But what is the number one reason vets play NGE in this state? Enjoyment of the game? Rarely. "I worked so hard for all this, I just can't let go."Is locking players in (the core model of subscription based games) really the proper driving factor for everyone to enjoy? If grind is the only thing that keeps them in the game, are they really the people you want around?
Again, you're making assumptions that aren't grounded in anything but guesswork. Assumptions I don't agree with.
First, most vets DIDN'T stay in the game. I didn't. And I seem to want to play with the kind of players who abandoned SWG early for the same reasons I did. So, I won't try to crystal ball read and explain why some vets stuck with NGE, but I doubt a significant number "just can't let go" because of the work they put in. Probably they find some aspects of the game superior to other things they could be doing with the time and money .... lord only knows why, though.
Nor did I ever endorse the idea that "grinding should be what keeps people in the game," what a grotesque concept. I'd rather see a daily limit on XP earned and leveling AND diverse content that gives people other things to do after 1 or 2 hours spent levelling in a day.
Originally posted by MX13 Originally posted by iskareot Originally posted by LilT If this is the future of mmo's, I want no part of it.
Maybe if i had alot of disposable income, i'd feel differently. Or maybe if I had no problem with spending buying charging without limit. As it stands now, I dont, and the thought of having to keep buying buying buying just to compete in my favorite game goes against what I believe, as corny as that sounds. I dont believe the real world pressure of having to buy the best clothes and more stuff to feel valuable should cross over into the virtual world, as someone said before me, that takes away the point of having a virtual world. In a GAME, if everyone cannot start out evenly, if someone has a head start because they have more money, then I dont see the point of even competing.
Maybe i'm simple, but when someone tries to sell me things i dont need, like a department store credit card or a new cell phone, I get testy. I long for the day that i can go and buy a shirt and not be asked for my phone number or email or to sign up for a 47% intrest rate credit card in order to get me to spend more and more and more and more. I know it's the nature of business and our culture, but sometimes i'd like to be looked at as more than just a $.
What does that have to do with charging for items and advancement in an mmo? Well, I dont know, but it gives me the same testy, apprehensive feeling. Of all the arguments for this kind of payment system, i just have one point. If the companies didnt think you'd end up spending more that $15, if they didnt think they'd get more money out of you this way, they wouldnt bother. I just dont like to be conned out of my money lol and that's what i feel like this kind of system is. If the $15 a month isnt covering costs, raise it to 20, and let me decide if i feel its worth it. Dont make me have to decide if that sword is worth $1.25 and the shield worth the same and before i know it ive spent $50 dollars on 20 little things that everyone else has.
See and alot of this is the point.
Value based on experience = worth. I am not sure how or IF these should cross over each other in gaming, life, or job.
If we base our morals on (right and wrong) then people would or need to change what each one of us percieves as "right or wrong".
Sure I understand the guy that does not have time, does not have the motive, runs a business etc.. that does not have the time to get a Jedi in the game normally, but he is wealthy and can afford to buy one.
It comes down to what he thinks the goal is....or what he thinks holds "value".... hard to say what each person would do.
The undelying cause of this all was the Grind. Simply, if the system to get Jedi was based on days played + POI's visited + Quests Done + The same XP time to master 3 Prof's, then there wouldn't be a demand to Buy a Jedi. Why? Because, while it might be gated it's not grind heavy, giving everyone the chance to "Earn" it... What most people hated about the Jedi unlock wasn't the time, it was the repetative Grind...
Yeah but that is game symantics though. I mean, there was the path... you had a Choice, you knew the effort needed or had a idea of it. So I think that people did not want to do it more so because it was a pain across the board, because one could say that was part of it.
______________________________ I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process..... SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
If anything, Jedi over time became easier, so I guess one would say over time (up to the NGE obviously) that the class lost respect or level based on that.
But for people to buy one, without the experience that makes them the Jedi is where the value or even respect comes from.
So you would show respect to leet kiddies who asked mommy to pay the fee and play 8 hours a day and grind the jedi the "right" way. Even if then they jump around yelling noob, running /lol macros and finding new ways to bypass the prophanity filter. You would treat them with uttermost respect, show them how to play safely, warn them of TEF exploits, and share your loot with them.
But you would despise your friend and neighbor, who has been a long time SW fan, but doesn't know much about games, but he saw you playing it, so he bought his account off eBay, so he could run as Jedi around with you in game? So you'd call him eBayers, put him on ignore, tell others to send hate tells or at least ignore him? Or would you even try to do the best, and bring out his true SW fandom, greater than that of majority of players, and let him live out his own saga, even if obtained through a shortcut, yet only possible way for him?
I am mostly PVE, and most certainly not a leet kid. But I just dont like this idea, it just doesnt "feel" very sporting to me. Where is the challenge, and therefore the sense or accomplishment? I didnt like either of the other systems either though........./shrug
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
Originally posted by iskareot Originally posted by MX13
The undelying cause of this all was the Grind. Simply, if the system to get Jedi was based on days played + POI's visited + Quests Done + The same XP time to master 3 Prof's, then there wouldn't be a demand to Buy a Jedi. Why? Because, while it might be gated it's not grind heavy, giving everyone the chance to "Earn" it... What most people hated about the Jedi unlock wasn't the time, it was the repetative Grind...
Yeah but that is game symantics though. I mean, there was the path... you had a Choice, you knew the effort needed or had a idea of it. So I think that people did not want to do it more so because it was a pain across the board, because one could say that was part of it.
You jus made my point. There are ways in game design to "earn" somthing in a way other than grinding... that was the true failure of SWG... everyone I knew that joined wanted to "earn" Jedi through a SW experience, not 6 months of spinning Pickets....
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
Nor did I ever endorse the idea that "grinding should be what keeps people in the game," what a grotesque concept. I'd rather see a daily limit on XP earned and leveling AND diverse content that gives people other things to do after 1 or 2 hours spent levelling in a day.
It's still grinding, but with caps. WoW uses this concept on Chinese servers. What do players do? Buy 2 or 3 accounts.
It does not change the fact WoW is still a grinding game, nor does it improve socialization. It merely forces players to use different aproach to grinding.
Comments
First, especially in MMO's you are trying to design escapist worlds. People get to be the warrior, the industrialist, the doctor that they aren't able to be in real life. So now you're going to import the inequalities of the Real World into your game and tell kids "Yep, come escape to our world ... where people who are rich in the real world will have it easy and screw you over just as easily as they do in your daily life." Wrong message.
Second, my experience in MMO's is admittedly limited, but I do seem to enjoy playing with certain types of gamers more than others. Smart, clever people. People with good work ethic. People with good team spirit. People, in short, who wrinkle their nose at the idea of taking exploitative shortcuts to achieving things in the game. They feel they're cheating themselves by doing that. So now, you're going to incorporate shortcuts for spoiled kids BY DESIGN, and make them a more dominant part of your virtual world than ever before. That already sounds like a world I don't want to visit, that won't be inhabited by the kind of people I like gaming with.
So, it's not that they're 'cheaping my efforts' so much as they're guaranteeing that the game world will be less enjoyable for me because of the types of gamers the design will attract. I'd rather patronize the game design that discourages exploits and shortcuts and rewards people who are good at playing the game.
*steps down off soapbox*
Second, my experience in MMO's is admittedly limited, but I do seem to enjoy playing with certain types of gamers more than others. Smart, clever people. People with good work ethic. People with good team spirit. People, in short, who wrinkle their nose at the idea of taking exploitative shortcuts to achieving things in the game. They feel they're cheating themselves by doing that. So now, you're going to incorporate shortcuts for spoiled kids BY DESIGN, and make them a more dominant part of your virtual world than ever before. That already sounds like a world I don't want to visit, that won't be inhabited by the kind of people I like gaming with.
I disagree with spoiled kids. For a very simple reason.
Who is more likely to be team oriented, with good ethics and interested into fair play.
- A person who is the first to grind for 6 months 8 hours a day?
- A family person, who has $1500 overhead income dedicated to leisure but plays only 2 hours every 3 days.
Ask yourself, why does first person have 8 hours spare time every day.
You are basing your experience on existing situation. Buying a slot is not cheating or exploiting. Smart and clever people do not do mind numbing tasks of spending 870 hours killing 36000 voritors.
How can a world attract different type of players, when by default it prevents them from entering. And the comparison with NGE is inaplicable. It's still a grind based game that has removed any other apeal except for the grind. All rewards in game are still only grind based.
The person who plays 2 hours a day 3 days a week and isn't worried about finishing their template in a week ... I played with lots of them. They're fun.
The kid who says "mommy mommy I wanna be a Jedi, buy me one!" ... I suspect I won't enjoy the game world they dominate much. And seeing what happened to Jedi with NGE starting-profession easiness, it's pretty easy to see that being exactly the world you'll get.
I never said buying a slot was cheating or exploiting, I called it a shortcut. A huge shortcut. Reward with no risk or effort. Yes, the kind of person who takes those shortcuts is more likely to also cheat or exploit, but that's not saying that buying the skills or profession is a cheat. I just don't find the company of people who look at reward without effort as their right to be very enjoyable people to do things with, including gaming.
Bad idea, it'll mostly mean a bunch of spoilt kids withe daddy's credit card with their ub3r1337 pwnzingsz skillz shouting "boobies" etc and would cheapen the whole idea of jedi.
The ebay jedi phenomenon pre-cu rerflected a true market value of what jedi meant to some people, not me personally I never wanted to be a jedi and never bought anything off ebay. But the amount of annoying jedi who'd go "buff me now!!! I'm pvp'ing" would really pi$$ me off.
The rarity of jedi before GTEF's were abolished was something I admired, by the time of the CU standing overt and being surrounded by 7 jedi uncloaking and ganking me, it all seemed a little too much if you know what I mean.
Like Isk said, if you wanted it bad enough you'd earn it, but be careful because you might lose it too.
There was some Smed article a while back saying how asian style gaming markets were the way forward where you could buy loot etc direct from SOE, that made me sick to my stomach. It's like going to Vegas and sitting at a table with a mile-high stack of chips and putting down $2 bets - no risk no reward "but Hey!! dont I look cool?"
The kid who says "mommy mommy I wanna be a Jedi, buy me one!" ... I suspect I won't enjoy the game world they dominate much. And seeing what happened to Jedi with NGE starting-profession easiness, it's pretty easy to see that being exactly the world you'll get.
What are their motives for playing. A kid wants to impress others. Very few will have any other motive. "Look what I've got". This is, of course, normal behaviour.
They also have more than enough free time to waste doing meaningless tasks. Grind. By giving something through alternate means, this aspect is removed. The core value of Jedi comes from the challenges faced in pre-cu, not from profession itself.
And what happens, after this kid who needs his mommy gets killed 3 times and is perma dead? Because they likely lack the discipline to obey the rules.
The consequences I'm proposing here go well above the mechanics, more into natural evolution model. Yes, you get such players, but they don't last long. Morons, those are plenty under any and all models.
But what is the number one reason vets play NGE in this state? Enjoyment of the game? Rarely. "I worked so hard for all this, I just can't let go."
Is locking players in (the core model of subscription based games) really the proper driving factor for everyone to enjoy? If grind is the only thing that keeps them in the game, are they really the people you want around?
The kid who says "mommy mommy I wanna be a Jedi, buy me one!" ... I suspect I won't enjoy the game world they dominate much. And seeing what happened to Jedi with NGE starting-profession easiness, it's pretty easy to see that being exactly the world you'll get.
What are their motives for playing. A kid wants to impress others. Very few will have any other motive. "Look what I've got". This is, of course, normal behaviour.
They also have more than enough free time to waste doing meaningless tasks. Grind. By giving something through alternate means, this aspect is removed. The core value of Jedi comes from the challenges faced in pre-cu, not from profession itself.
And what happens, after this kid who needs his mommy gets killed 3 times and is perma dead? Because they likely lack the discipline to obey the rules.
The consequences I'm proposing here go well above the mechanics, more into natural evolution model. Yes, you get such players, but they don't last long. Morons, those are plenty under any and all models.
But what is the number one reason vets play NGE in this state? Enjoyment of the game? Rarely. "I worked so hard for all this, I just can't let go."
Is locking players in (the core model of subscription based games) really the proper driving factor for everyone to enjoy? If grind is the only thing that keeps them in the game, are they really the people you want around?
I see your point but even if they were subject to permadeath, there'd still be hundreds of jedi running around and you'd instantly dismiss the accomplished jedi as jumped-up little wankers like the rest of them.
You'd lose the awe of seeing a sabre pulled out at a starport when he gets jumped by a BH, or when I was a doc I liked helping a cool jedi out with a buff or whatnot even if I got a tef and attacked myself. I wouldn't do that for someone who payed $49.95.
just my 2 cents
This is example of the lamest rip-off example that is indeed fitting with some existing companies. But looking into upcoming more or less trial models, none of them are rip-offs.
But like it or not, this IS the future. And in every other entertainment, it's the past:
- Merchandising (how many SW gizmos do you own? Are they necessary to enjoy movies to the fullest?)
- Candy cane, souveniers, picures with goofy (can you enjoy Disneyland to the fullest without those?)
Like it or not, in 10 years people will be both amused and surprised over how online games worked. Whaaa? You paid $15 flat? For what? Daily events 5 times a day? What? No updates and you had to buy expansions? How did you then get custom molded avatar delivered to your house overnight? Didn't have that? Then what did you do? Grinded for 6 months? Were you efing insane?
Some existing players will adapt, others will fully embrace the changes, some will leave the gaming. But the next generation of games will be a very different one.
I do fully agree with the "value" as you put it. Sums up the worth of one's gaming very well. Too many do expect to be praised for achievements in game, when in fact they are available to all.
Then there should be never a issue with people complaining about having to do them to achieve the goal.
If it is available to all... Now then, it is CHOICE that makes this call. Not being "Available" -- i.e. See Jedi) It was available to all always, BUT you had to do things to get it or the said item. At the time of course there was no "Purchase plan" -- the Game Makers chose to make people apply effort for them.
I have to think that in the making or creating process if a "ITEM" or slot was going to be sellable then it would go into consideration of it's design.
In other words, I do not see a company going overboard making a very very very strong class, Alpha if you will then making it available to people that can pay or people that can earn it in game.
Somthing tells me that it would not be as strong as you would think. Kinda like buying a free diploma online without doing any of the school work. I just can't see it being a "Good" school.
______________________________
I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
The kid who says "mommy mommy I wanna be a Jedi, buy me one!" ... I suspect I won't enjoy the game world they dominate much. And seeing what happened to Jedi with NGE starting-profession easiness, it's pretty easy to see that being exactly the world you'll get.
What are their motives for playing. A kid wants to impress others. Very few will have any other motive. "Look what I've got". This is, of course, normal behaviour.
They also have more than enough free time to waste doing meaningless tasks. Grind. By giving something through alternate means, this aspect is removed. The core value of Jedi comes from the challenges faced in pre-cu, not from profession itself.
And what happens, after this kid who needs his mommy gets killed 3 times and is perma dead? Because they likely lack the discipline to obey the rules.
The consequences I'm proposing here go well above the mechanics, more into natural evolution model. Yes, you get such players, but they don't last long. Morons, those are plenty under any and all models.
But what is the number one reason vets play NGE in this state? Enjoyment of the game? Rarely. "I worked so hard for all this, I just can't let go."
Is locking players in (the core model of subscription based games) really the proper driving factor for everyone to enjoy? If grind is the only thing that keeps them in the game, are they really the people you want around?
I see your point but even if they were subject to permadeath, there'd still be hundreds of jedi running around and you'd instantly dismiss the accomplished jedi as jumped-up little wankers like the rest of them.
You'd lose the awe of seeing a sabre pulled out at a starport when he gets jumped by a BH, or when I was a doc I liked helping a cool jedi out with a buff or whatnot even if I got a tef and attacked myself. I wouldn't do that for someone who payed $49.95.
just my 2 cents
See that is a point as well, common sense and "worth" morals will play a roll in this.. no matter what, humans have a sense of right and wrong and somthing tells me that they would see it as such.
Again, compare this means and ways to other things in life. I think that is the only way to be more fair.
I would kill my kid if he paid 5 bucks for the answers on a test to get a A, this in most cases is the same concept for alot of people.
However I will be the first person to tell you I pay someone to detail my care because I do not want to/or have the time to do it.
______________________________
I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
Somthing tells me that it would not be as strong as you would think. Kinda like buying a free diploma online without doing any of the school work. I just can't see it being a "Good" school.
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Is it worth anything?
It depends only on the job and pay it gets you.
So "worth" is highly subjective. Or do you firmly believe that rewards are allocated fairly, and these online diplomas don't sell.
Somthing tells me that it would not be as strong as you would think. Kinda like buying a free diploma online without doing any of the school work. I just can't see it being a "Good" school.
Get your University Degree Today. haney.
If you have the knowledge and experience in your field but you are lacking the Degree, we can help. thwack.
Non-accredited Degrees available at all levels. draftsman.
Call 24 hours a day. proteolysis.
All Calls are 100% Confidential. bandstand.
Call 1-832-213-4744 and change your life today. worldwide.
To no longer receive our offers: 1-801-454-2828 medicinal.
Is it worth anything?
It depends only on the job and pay it gets you.
So "worth" is highly subjective. Or do you firmly believe that rewards are allocated fairly, and these online diplomas don't sell.
To "open ended" of a question. I think worth is based on each persons experience and value of the learning process.
See, all things considered each item or thing is not the same -- i.e. Experience or as it was intended was cheapened or not even seen might be considered the "goal" not as much the end result but the PATH you took to get that result. It all depends on what people put thier OWN value on.
For instance, I value the experience that I gained from making old Jedi a goal back then. The expereince of knowing what to get, who to get it from, how to get it and living it was part of my experience (Or what I considered the goal really) --
I think alot of this depends on each person and what they portray as (Goal) and desire.
Sure I desire getting my Masters in Computer Science, but what will it be percieved as if I can obtain it simply by purchasing it for 50k and not experiencing the learning portion that makes it worth the while.
Like I said, I know what your saying but based on the values of each person I think you would have mixed results.
______________________________
I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
I read all 4 pages of this thread to get a good feel of the discussion.
In short, MMO's are doomed for us older gamers. I started playing MMO's back in 2002, well 2001 if you count MotorCity online, which was a drag racing game by EA. But I chose to pick up my first true MMO (DAoC), because I seen on the box, several players grouped together--overcoming odds as a team. I also had this idea that I could play the same game and still be advancing and improving my character 2 years later.
Being able to max out a character in a month, or a year is just insane to me. But so is grinding to advance as well. Advancing while just playing the game, hence living in the virtual world, was the ideal game for me, which is why Pre-CU appeals to me. But of course I hear that many Pre-CU people solely worked on advancing their character instead of RPing. With SWG, even at CU, RPing was part of the design. You RPed by default, when you established a healthy relationship with that armor and weaponsmith crafter or when you joined a guild who had a set-up akin to a actual government, with a city and all.
So of course, with the way I think, I have to say "NO" to being able to buy Jedi or any item or thing in a MMO. I am nobody special to be able to say what MMO's are supposed to be like, but the community I started playing MMO's with agreed with me and that community is who I want to play with. Take the new KOTOR MMO rumor for example. My first response is "Hell Yeah," but if I think about it, if the game just has a WoW type community, instead of the community I like playing with, how long would I actually play that game?
An MMO needs staying power. Having goals that do not take a grind and also a community who makes you feel like you're actually in a living breathing world is what I need. Jedi should never have been a grind. The risk of Pre-9 was just fine for the timeline, but they should have made Jedi obtainable through a different means. But it definitely should have been a challenge and it should have taken a while, so that the new Jedi could honestly play the part as a wise Jedi, because they know all aspects of the game and know every nook and cranny in the galaxy.
With each passing year and new wave of MMO's, gamers like me are forced out the door and replaced with instant gratification gamers. If I wanted everything "NOW" I would just play a SP game and use all the cheat codes. But this is a problem that stems from MMO's being about a grind and timesink. If MMO's were actually fun to play, people would not even think about paying $50 to miss the fun of accomplishing something like obtaining Jedi.
Assuming you run into someone who did buy the slot.
You can see they are still inexperienced, but they are learning. A goal for this person was to develop Jedi, then use it to help their guild in a role-playish fashion. Due to their background, they don't play even remotely enough to find time to grind the unlock itself, and this per-purchase option is the only reason they started playing anyway.
Can you accept them as your equal, since you both pursue your own goals?
The CS diploma example. You desperately wish to work in IT. You have two options. Go to university, pay $125k, spend 4 years. Buy online, get a job now, prove yourself during 4 years through work.
If in neither of these cases you show off your diploma, but your genuine goal is to work in IT because you love electronic gizmos, does it really matter how heavy that piece of paper is?
Online diploma will not put you into Google's R&D, but then again, you do not care about that. It'll also not put you into next to Oppenheimer, Turing and Bresenham. Or then again, it might, but it will be so because of your contribution. The diploma only opened the door to this.
Of course, there are morons that flash their online diplomas, thinking they are the greatest thing ever. And there's many of them. But does this type really prosper in the long run? What about people who do not fool themselves about the worth of their diploma, but treat it merely for what it is - a piece of paper that unlocks certain doors, everything else however is their own doing.
I'd be against it, however the concept of buying XP would be interesting...
There was a point I was falling WAY behind my friends due to a HUGE amount of working.... I would have bought XP to catch up, so we could have spent our time adventuring instead of getting me caught up.
But buying Jedi? Absolutly not. IMO, the grind was dumb as hell, and it should have been an unlock combo of the following:
That would unlock Force sensative. Then you'ld go to the village, but instead of the rediculous FS XP, it would be smaller amounts of Combat or other XP (it shouldn't be a grind). Also, IMO, instead of a Village, they should have created a system where you're quests & quest givers were located at unused POI's around the Galaxy. So you'ld go to the village, talk to the chief guy and he may send you to Yavin Blueleaf, or Talus Village. The quests could also change location and type as well, creating a unique experience.
After all of that, you unlock Force User. NO Jedi. The powers should have been unique, but not "Uber". This would have helped with the balance issues. Think Luke in ESB, that level of force use. That would hopefully encourage template mixers, like Kyle Katan, a Smuggler / Pistols / Force User.
IMO, that would have been fun...
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
Assuming you run into someone who did buy the slot.
You can see they are still inexperienced, but they are learning. A goal for this person was to develop Jedi, then use it to help their guild in a role-playish fashion. Due to their background, they don't play even remotely enough to find time to grind the unlock itself, and this per-purchase option is the only reason they started playing anyway.
Can you accept them as your equal, since you both pursue your own goals?
My first thought is, then maybe Jedi is not for him..if he does not have the time to learn it perse but then... I think, ok so he wants it but he just wants to skip all the learning part and buy one. --- somthing just does not sound right there.
No but see you answered the question above yourself. "They do not have the experience" sure some goals, NOT all obvioulsy may be the same but as you just said the experience is not there.
Example: I do not consider myself equal to someone that has been in the IT Field for 25 years over my now 13 years.
I would be foolish to think I have the same experience or know how, if you will as he does, based on his "Time in grade" perse.
I can tell you this, In the real world... if you have a major problem with some coding issues you do not go to a coder that got his diploma in 4 months and has only been doing it for 2 months...
You go with the guy that has done it for 5 years and has seen more, experienced more and has learned alot of things over time.
Again were back to value based on experience.
The CS diploma example. You desperately wish to work in IT. You have two options. Go to university, pay $125k, spend 4 years. Buy online, get a job now, prove yourself during 4 years through work.
If in neither of these cases you show off your diploma, but your genuine goal is to work in IT because you love electronic gizmos, does it really matter how heavy that piece of paper is?
It can based on experience, trust me I know IM in it and right here because of it. Experience got me in the door at this firm, NOT my dimploma more so. It was a combination of them of course, they did see it, they liked it but they knew they rather have someone that new what bumps could happen along the way.
Online diploma will not put you into Google's R&D, but then again, you do not care about that. It'll also not put you into next to Oppenheimer, Turing and Bresenham. Or then again, it might, but it will be so because of your contribution. The diploma only opened the door to this.
See this is different then because in this response you do not care if you got the said "Item" or not.. Not sure how this would be over time.
Of course, there are morons that flash their online diplomas, thinking they are the greatest thing ever. And there's many of them. But does this type really prosper in the long run? What about people who do not fool themselves about the worth of their diploma, but treat it merely for what it is - a piece of paper that unlocks certain doors, everything else however is their own doing.
______________________________
I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
Maybe if i had alot of disposable income, i'd feel differently. Or maybe if I had no problem with spending buying charging without limit. As it stands now, I dont, and the thought of having to keep buying buying buying just to compete in my favorite game goes against what I believe, as corny as that sounds. I dont believe the real world pressure of having to buy the best clothes and more stuff to feel valuable should cross over into the virtual world, as someone said before me, that takes away the point of having a virtual world. In a GAME, if everyone cannot start out evenly, if someone has a head start because they have more money, then I dont see the point of even competing.
Maybe i'm simple, but when someone tries to sell me things i dont need, like a department store credit card or a new cell phone, I get testy. I long for the day that i can go and buy a shirt and not be asked for my phone number or email or to sign up for a 47% intrest rate credit card in order to get me to spend more and more and more and more. I know it's the nature of business and our culture, but sometimes i'd like to be looked at as more than just a $.
What does that have to do with charging for items and advancement in an mmo? Well, I dont know, but it gives me the same testy, apprehensive feeling. Of all the arguments for this kind of payment system, i just have one point. If the companies didnt think you'd end up spending more that $15, if they didnt think they'd get more money out of you this way, they wouldnt bother. I just dont like to be conned out of my money lol and that's what i feel like this kind of system is. If the $15 a month isnt covering costs, raise it to 20, and let me decide if i feel its worth it. Dont make me have to decide if that sword is worth $1.25 and the shield worth the same and before i know it ive spent $50 dollars on 20 little things that everyone else has.
For the Horde!
See and alot of this is the point.
Value based on experience = worth. I am not sure how or IF these should cross over each other in gaming, life, or job.
If we base our morals on (right and wrong) then people would or need to change what each one of us percieves as "right or wrong".
Sure I understand the guy that does not have time, does not have the motive, runs a business etc.. that does not have the time to get a Jedi in the game normally, but he is wealthy and can afford to buy one.
It comes down to what he thinks the goal is....or what he thinks holds "value".... hard to say what each person would do.
______________________________
I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
This lab has a department which performs certain measurments. It involves science crews and operations. Science are all multiple PhDs, conference hopping, article publishing book writing types. Operations is a single kid with no real education, just a completed course.
A grant was given to the lab to examine certain scientific aspects. Scientists are immediately excited, they start writing papers, speculating, planning, etc. But the core of work involves merely setting up the system for massive ammount of measurment, and then post-processing it to verify the theory.
One year passes, and nothing is done. But the revision commision is soon to come to examine how the money was spent. PhDs are showing off their papers, but no real work. Then the project manager, who only has to deal with fundings and justifying its spending, goes to the operations guy.
He explains his problem, and the ops guy is completely calm. He shows into the corner, where he set up a little prototype system for himself, doing what was needed for the grant. it wasn't even his job, but he understands how things work. So the PM verifies that this is indeed what needed to be done, and the ops guy merely shows across the room, hosting other "prototype" projects he did in the same way, that have long time since become part of backbone of operations. PM is of course happy, the commision passes, PhDs are credited, and they move on to next project.
This guy is a geek. He loves working with this type of stuff. And everyone who gets him, will, whisperingly of course, acknowledge that without him, there would be no lab, since it would be shut down and fall apart.
But still, he can never publish papers, he can't go to conferences, and he gets no extra pay. What he gets, is silent respect from anyone that knows him.
As I said, it's true story from about 5-7 years ago.
What does "earned" really mean then? Do the people who really earn truly get the respect they deserve? Is it really necessary for respect to be publicized openly, or do most people get respect without any public acknowledgment?
Is respect in games completely different? Is "doing the grind" really the thing that earns people the respect (no, eBay is not the only alternative)? Can respect in game really be defined only through grind without allowing for other possiblitiy?
Does the way someone obtained the Jedi slot really define them? If it's so unacceptable for someone to buy it, then the only thing that truly makes the Jedi in SWG is not even remotely anything related to Star Wars, but the respect is merely given to those that killed 75000 mobs. How does that relate to Jedi? How does that indeed reflect in the overal type of players that do unlock?
As I said in the beginning, this is a discussion on the original topic of "earning a Jedi" and "I deserved it". There is no right or wrong.
See and alot of this is the point.
Value based on experience = worth. I am not sure how or IF these should cross over each other in gaming, life, or job.
If we base our morals on (right and wrong) then people would or need to change what each one of us percieves as "right or wrong".
Sure I understand the guy that does not have time, does not have the motive, runs a business etc.. that does not have the time to get a Jedi in the game normally, but he is wealthy and can afford to buy one.
It comes down to what he thinks the goal is....or what he thinks holds "value".... hard to say what each person would do.
The undelying cause of this all was the Grind. Simply, if the system to get Jedi was based on days played + POI's visited + Quests Done + The same XP time to master 3 Prof's, then there wouldn't be a demand to Buy a Jedi. Why? Because, while it might be gated it's not grind heavy, giving everyone the chance to "Earn" it... What most people hated about the Jedi unlock wasn't the time, it was the repetative Grind...
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
Lol, see example me:
I have the power to shut down my firm or keep it up and making millions a day at the drop of a dime.
I keep all the servers smooth and running, I watch incoming and outgoing crap daily and have not (KNOCK ON WOOD) had a virus in the office in over two years with all my security.
They respect my knowledge and how I learned to overcome the obsticals or issues at hand due to my EXPERIENCE over time.
Now then to apply this to Jedi in most respects, I can do this easy:
I can safely say that killing 75000 mobs was NOT Jedi (at least more so in the early years) -- so that alone answers that one... it was much more then that.
See, I think people or some do not know all the aspects of what it took -- or the thinking there of.
People that think you just went out killed things and all was well in fairy land are fools..
There was learning and exploring, goals and failures... The grind part -- well sure killing things is what it is, but see it was always the other elements that happend time to time that made you respect it and earn that Jedi life perse.
Each time they changed it sure it got easier, in the end the NGE we do not even consider it -- nothing to really get lol. Alos lets not forget they said more as time went on, such as things like what "Visibility was" or how to get it and not get it, or "Changing the loss and how to avoid it" over time with more info..
If anything, Jedi over time became easier, so I guess one would say over time (up to the NGE obviously) that the class lost respect or level based on that.
But for people to buy one, without the experience that makes them the Jedi is where the value or even respect comes from.
______________________________
I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
First, most vets DIDN'T stay in the game. I didn't. And I seem to want to play with the kind of players who abandoned SWG early for the same reasons I did. So, I won't try to crystal ball read and explain why some vets stuck with NGE, but I doubt a significant number "just can't let go" because of the work they put in. Probably they find some aspects of the game superior to other things they could be doing with the time and money .... lord only knows why, though.
Nor did I ever endorse the idea that "grinding should be what keeps people in the game," what a grotesque concept. I'd rather see a daily limit on XP earned and leveling AND diverse content that gives people other things to do after 1 or 2 hours spent levelling in a day.
See and alot of this is the point.
Value based on experience = worth. I am not sure how or IF these should cross over each other in gaming, life, or job.
If we base our morals on (right and wrong) then people would or need to change what each one of us percieves as "right or wrong".
Sure I understand the guy that does not have time, does not have the motive, runs a business etc.. that does not have the time to get a Jedi in the game normally, but he is wealthy and can afford to buy one.
It comes down to what he thinks the goal is....or what he thinks holds "value".... hard to say what each person would do.
The undelying cause of this all was the Grind. Simply, if the system to get Jedi was based on days played + POI's visited + Quests Done + The same XP time to master 3 Prof's, then there wouldn't be a demand to Buy a Jedi. Why? Because, while it might be gated it's not grind heavy, giving everyone the chance to "Earn" it... What most people hated about the Jedi unlock wasn't the time, it was the repetative Grind...
Yeah but that is game symantics though. I mean, there was the path... you had a Choice, you knew the effort needed or had a idea of it. So I think that people did not want to do it more so because it was a pain across the board, because one could say that was part of it.
______________________________
I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
If anything, Jedi over time became easier, so I guess one would say over time (up to the NGE obviously) that the class lost respect or level based on that.
But for people to buy one, without the experience that makes them the Jedi is where the value or even respect comes from.
So you would show respect to leet kiddies who asked mommy to pay the fee and play 8 hours a day and grind the jedi the "right" way. Even if then they jump around yelling noob, running /lol macros and finding new ways to bypass the prophanity filter. You would treat them with uttermost respect, show them how to play safely, warn them of TEF exploits, and share your loot with them.
But you would despise your friend and neighbor, who has been a long time SW fan, but doesn't know much about games, but he saw you playing it, so he bought his account off eBay, so he could run as Jedi around with you in game? So you'd call him eBayers, put him on ignore, tell others to send hate tells or at least ignore him? Or would you even try to do the best, and bring out his true SW fandom, greater than that of majority of players, and let him live out his own saga, even if obtained through a shortcut, yet only possible way for him?
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
Yeah but that is game symantics though. I mean, there was the path... you had a Choice, you knew the effort needed or had a idea of it. So I think that people did not want to do it more so because it was a pain across the board, because one could say that was part of it.
You jus made my point. There are ways in game design to "earn" somthing in a way other than grinding... that was the true failure of SWG... everyone I knew that joined wanted to "earn" Jedi through a SW experience, not 6 months of spinning Pickets....
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
Nor did I ever endorse the idea that "grinding should be what keeps people in the game," what a grotesque concept. I'd rather see a daily limit on XP earned and leveling AND diverse content that gives people other things to do after 1 or 2 hours spent levelling in a day.
It's still grinding, but with caps. WoW uses this concept on Chinese servers. What do players do? Buy 2 or 3 accounts.
It does not change the fact WoW is still a grinding game, nor does it improve socialization. It merely forces players to use different aproach to grinding.