Originally posted by Amathe Originally posted by baphamet
Originally posted by Amathe The issue for me is, how fun is the game? EQ is fun. WoW is fun. Will Vanguard be fun? I say no, but not because of the death penalty.
may i ask why you think eqs combat is fun but you think vanguard's wont? and if it is not the combat what is it? i loved eq1 but lets be honest, the combat was not why it was so fun (at least not for me).
I will do my best to answer, but it's hard to put into words. I am also giving you the benefit of the doubt that you actually want my opinion, since normally you just flame me lol.
An online game (this one and all of them that I know about) try to be two things : (1) a game and (2) an online world where you feel present in a compelling and interesting place. There can be tension between those two goals. If you put in too much "game" you can lose the feel of the world, and if you put in too much world you can lose the feel of the game. For example, if you have to travel long distances that increaes the feel of being in a realistic world, but if you really aren't accomplishing anything while you do it you lose some gameplay. Likewise, if you find yourself working hard to move an xp bar there is a definite game element to that, but you lose the sense of being in a fantasy setting. Striking a balance between these two goals is the real art of design.
While EQ1 and WoW are very different in many ways, what they have in common, at least for me, is that in both games I enjoy the gameplay while not losing the sense that I am present in a fantasy setting. The balance is struck in an acceptable way. You are gaming but you also feel immersion in that setting. That is what I mean by "fun."
In my opinion, Vanguard fails to strike the balance. Before I explain why, let me point out that a lot of people on these boards knee jerk assume that if you don't like Vanguard you must want some super easy game where everything just falls into your lap. I can't speak for every player but that certainly isn't true for me. I would be perfectly happy playing a game where it took me three or four years to reach max level, and where I never had the best items, etc., so long as it was a fun and compelling journey along the way.
Vanguard is, and this is a key phrase that their own Devs use, an ultra item centric game. It's all about the items, having them or not having them. Now of course, items are important in EQ1 and WoW also, but Vanguard goes beyond that. You don't have a character in Vanguard. You have a clothes hanger. They may as well do away with the face and the hair and the arms and just depict a floating clothes hanger. Your skill doesn't matter. You don't matter. It's every bit 100% totally the sum of your items.
I could never be immersed in such a world. They have taken one aspect of online gaming - the aquisition of items - and elevated it above, and to the exclusion, of almost everything else. To me that is boring as hell.
But that's just the tip of the iceberg. You have to look at why they did that. And once you understand the why you will understand my antipathy for this game. Brad believes (and he believes this because his peer group believes this and he doesn't spend any time around people who don't believe this) that what every player wants is to have better stuff than the next guy. He believes that we all look up to, admire, and aspire to be the guy in the game with the best stuff. It absolutely never occurs to him that many of us don't join guilds like Fires of Heaven because we can't or don't have enough time, but because we don't want to. Vanguard is designed to instill in every player an accute sense of inadequacy and weakness so that they will feel compelled to buy into Brad's ultra item centric view of online gaming, and keep plugging away to get more items.
I see that as unbalanced, in the sense that there is too much emphasis on gameplay mechanics and too little emphasis on the sheer fun of playing a fantasy character in an online adventure setting. When I played EQ1, I was never uber. I never had the best stuff. I couldn't experience all the content. But damn was I having fun! I was having fun because the game allowed me to have fun. My gear, whilst not the greatest, was sufficient for me to have a good time in many compelling and enjoyable zones. I was not relegated to clearing wandering yard trash pawned off as "solo/small group" content because the game simply would not let me enjoy myself until good enough items were aquired.
So that's my main complaint. Vanguard is the Syms meets EQ. 98% of the focus is on dressing up. And as I admit there is some of that in all of these games, Vanguard really is third generation in the sense that it has taken the worst element of online gaming and amplified it beyond all recognition.
Wow this was a very well thought out response. Although my view on this is a bit different. While I too avoid "uber guilds" like FoH or the like for largely the same reason as you. I have played and enjoyed many MMORPGs and in my opinion Content is king! Variety in content is key. I do want to be able to play at my own pace to stick to small groups and in general participate in a complex and compelling world.
What I fail to see is how Vanguard would limit me from doing any of these things. Like you, I have been able to do thins in all previous games of this type. Now one of your primary example of why this wont work is that it will be Item centric. but you then trivialize this same approch in both WoW and EQ1 when both of these are very item centric, as an example a war in WoW as stated by blizzard is 100% dependent on what gear she has.does this mean I have not enjoyed my warior with out the best gear.. no quite the opposite. If we look at EQ1 it to was based on gear it was really amaizing to me how many time I saw people get turned down for a group for not having the exact right peice of equipment. did this stop me from enjoying EQ for 6 years. no I simply stayed away from the "uber Leet" guilds and had a blast.. one major difference that I have seen in Vanguard is that unlike EQ1 where a solo player faught the same content designed for groups .. which it was. Vanguard will also offer areas that are "easier" for soloing. this does not meen that a solo play cannot enter these "group areas" (which IMHO is all that EQ really had) and with caution and skill progress. it just meens that there is an alternative. not to mention that a majority of the content is designed for groups, which in its current state consists of 6 people. this by no means would necessitate the need to be in a large uber guild. but there is raiding there for those who enjoy it. and I think thats great.. I may even at some point participate in that as I have done in past games, it just won't be my focus or my true source of enjoyment.
in addition it appears to me that with the other Two "spheres" there will be a large degree of alternate content that could equate to endless hours of entertainment. these are aspects that have truely been missing in current mmorpgs and I am very interested to see how they turn out in reality, but the potential is there.
so I will continue to wait and see how all this plays out once released. I enjoyed EQ I still enjoy Wow and I even enjoyed LineageII for a long time and it really as almost no built in content for an MMORPG.
A game in the end in my opinion is really what you make of it. and at this point all we can do is speculate just like we have had to do with any other game in developement. However again in my opinion we have been fed alot more info on this game then most other betas I have followed and as much as people complain about it Brads active involvement in the community surpasses any I have ever seen. which for me is a breath of fresh air.
Thank you for your post I truely enjoyed your opinion
Originally posted by Sacrificiall People don;t hate Death Penalties, They hate Time Sinks.
"Strict" death penalties usually include a pretty hafty time sink, and that is why they don't like them.
yep, and whats funny is those same people actually want to play a mmorpg. they need to realize that these games are all time sinks, if they don't like time sinks they should probably look for a different genre of games to be playing, dont shoot the messenger, thats just how it is.
yep, and whats funny is those same people actually want to play a mmorpg. they need to realize that these games are all time sinks, if they don't like time sinks they should probably look for a different genre of games to be playing, dont shoot the messenger, thats just how it is.
In my opinion there is a very big difference between time invested in entertainment and time waisted in meaningless and tedious ways that subtranct from the entertainment.
I do however feel that time investment is one aspect of the over all dificulty of a game, I do not feal tedious grinding is in and of itself dificult. so I think that if a game has esp loss as a penalty for death then it is importand that exp gain is entertaining. There are benafits to a death penalty such as encourging people to excersize caution adding a sense of fear and of occomplishment for sucess. a death penalty alone does not ruin enjoyment for me if I enjoy playing the game then I just enjoy it longer while I make up the experience loss/debt and I learn from my mistake and continue on. A death penalty should sting a little though or there is no penalty and with no penalty where is the risk? where is the accomplishment?
again in my opinion a death penalty can be good, but it can also be bad especially if the game is just tedious grinding and if a game is just tedious I most likely wont enjoy the game and then... its not my concern=)
As for how this plays out in Vanguard, We will have to wait and see if I enjoy playing the game and I find experience gain entertaining then I won't mind the death penalty as mmorpgs in my opinion are about investing time in entertainment.
I don't cry over death penality. I just DECIDED that I will NEVER play a game with corpse run where I need a 2nd gear again. Period.
I can think of many ways to make death not easy. XP loss or debt in itself is ALREADY a penality, and every MMO player should know if you die some times because you went with a bad group, it can take a LONG time to work all the debt/loss out. So I feel it is a double penality.
You may recover a shard, like once in EQ2 or so. I dont like CR, never will and never will play Vanguard if it is in all servers and no other ruleset servers. I love all other things about Vanguard I have heard so far, but some things are not in the bag to be negotiated.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
So I'm a power leveling brain dead zombie cry baby non hardcore player who wants to hijack your game?
Harsh death penalties = less risk taking.
Less risk taking /= skill
Less risk taking = less solo play, less exploring, more research
Harsh death = More leetism, more cookie cutting, more cliquey grouping, more abusive chat
Grats to the leet guilds who baby sit their nubs and 'beat' the game. I'll be off exploring some place in a small group trying for the 10th time to get my corpse back.
Originally posted by rounner So I'm a power leveling brain dead zombie cry baby non hardcore player who wants to hijack your game? Harsh death penalties = less risk taking. Less risk taking /= skill Less risk taking = less solo play, less exploring, more research Harsh death = More leetism, more cookie cutting, more cliquey grouping, more abusive chat Grats to the leet guilds who baby sit their nubs and 'beat' the game. I'll be off exploring some place in a small group trying for the 10th time to get my corpse back.
ok please dont take this as a flame. I am mearly experessing my opinion and disagreement.
I think you are right to a certain extent, But I do feel death penalty = less thoughtless actions that result in everyone dying, but not necessarily less taking calculated risks.
I mix an extensive amount of solo play and exploring is by far one of my favorite things in MMORPGs and I have done both in games with sever death penalties as have many people.
and to the next line.. that to me sounds like an average day in WoW which has no death penalty so unfortunatly in my experience death penalty has no real affect on this. ..
"leet guilds" and thier ilk will exist in every game with or without death penalties, wheather its a casual game, a hardcore game or anything inbetween they will always be there.
It is all about fun, as mentioned before. Spending an entire evening, first trying a hard boss, dying, and then trying to kill the boss (with inferior equipment) to get the previous equipment back, meanwhile losing all xp gained at that level, sounds like NOT fun. So what will happen? People will make sure that they optimize their chances of succes. Only the optimal classes. If someone screwes up, he is out! A good thing in WoW is that even if someone makes a mistake and the 40-man raid wipes, people can forgive him because you can start (almost) where you left.
What if a player messes up or dc during a fight and the group dies at a boss that keeps equipment until he is killed? Then they have to try him in sub-optimal equipment or wait the couple of hours until the equipment "returns" to a bind. I guess I would be a bit annoyed myself and maybe the player that messed up or DCed will be lucky to join a group of mine. That is not fun and that guy might never be invited to a group wth the other guys again.
So I am bit concerned that there will be no room for errors, and if that is the case the casuals will flee from the game no matter if VG has tons of very nice and innovative features. I am very excited about this game, but I am really concerned about the death-penalty system.
Originally posted by Elikal I don't cry over death penality. I just DECIDED that I will NEVER play a game with corpse run where I need a 2nd gear again. Period.
Well then you won't be playing Vanguard, which may or may not be the best MMORPG ever created. Too bad man, take care. And btw you won't need a second set of gear, unless you're completely anal retentive. Anyway, you made your mind up it sounds like, guess I can't say see you in Vanguard.
Corpse runs, for me, are a daydream deterrent. When death is meaningful is when, for me, the game really becomes immersive. In WoW, death meant literally nothing. This will not be the case in Vanguard.
Originally posted by mpl1979 It is all about fun, as mentioned before. Spending an entire evening, first trying a hard boss, dying, and then trying to kill the boss (with inferior equipment) to get the previous equipment back, meanwhile losing all xp gained at that level, sounds like NOT fun. So what will happen? People will make sure that they optimize their chances of succes. Only the optimal classes. If someone screwes up, he is out! A good thing in WoW is that even if someone makes a mistake and the 40-man raid wipes, people can forgive him because you can start (almost) where you left. What if a player messes up or dc during a fight and the group dies at a boss that keeps equipment until he is killed? Then they have to try him in sub-optimal equipment or wait the couple of hours until the equipment "returns" to a bind. I guess I would be a bit annoyed myself and maybe the player that messed up or DCed will be lucky to join a group of mine. That is not fun and that guy might never be invited to a group wth the other guys again. So I am bit concerned that there will be no room for errors, and if that is the case the casuals will flee from the game no matter if VG has tons of very nice and innovative features. I am very excited about this game, but I am really concerned about the death-penalty system.
i understand your concerns but i suggest you read more about the current death system in vanguard. it seems that you are assuming that there will be a harsh death penalty for every mob you face, witch isn't true.
alot of the time you wont have to do a naked corpse run and you will not lose all xp earned that level, that is a huge exaggeration and if you read more about the death system you will learn that the xp you lose upon death isn't as bad as eq1 is (if you have ever played that game).
i highly suggest you read this post click me it is explained in full detail and should ease some of your concerns.
Originally posted by Kalysa yep, and whats funny is those same people actually want to play a mmorpg. they need to realize that these games are all time sinks, if they don't like time sinks they should probably look for a different genre of games to be playing, dont shoot the messenger, thats just how it is.In my opinion there is a very big difference between time invested in entertainment and time waisted in meaningless and tedious ways that subtranct from the entertainment. I do however feel that time investment is one aspect of the over all dificulty of a game, I do not feal tedious grinding is in and of itself dificult. so I think that if a game has esp loss as a penalty for death then it is importand that exp gain is entertaining. There are benafits to a death penalty such as encourging people to excersize caution adding a sense of fear and of occomplishment for sucess. a death penalty alone does not ruin enjoyment for me if I enjoy playing the game then I just enjoy it longer while I make up the experience loss/debt and I learn from my mistake and continue on. A death penalty should sting a little though or there is no penalty and with no penalty where is the risk? where is the accomplishment? again in my opinion a death penalty can be good, but it can also be bad especially if the game is just tedious grinding and if a game is just tedious I most likely wont enjoy the game and then... its not my concern=) As for how this plays out in Vanguard, We will have to wait and see if I enjoy playing the game and I find experience gain entertaining then I won't mind the death penalty as mmorpgs in my opinion are about investing time in entertainment. ~Aruvia~
i pretty much agree with all of this, there are games that are huge grinds that are just not fun for me. but my point is if you hate time sinks then you hate all mmorpg's lol.
every game turns into a time sink, so i don't buy the argument "People don;t hate Death Penalties, They hate Time Sinks." yeah a death penalty where you lose xp is another form of a time sink if you die alot, but i don't think thats why most people hate death penalties.
i think they hate it because when they die they suffer a set back and they don't like that, they don't want to have to pay for their mistakes...they are willing to invest tons of time in the rest of the game but when they die they don't want to suffer a set back.
that is just my opinion and I'm sure everyone has their own reasons for not wanting death penalties, it just kills me when people complain about timesinks only when it is no longer convenient for them, like when they die.
i think there should be effects form death come on it is death! all you are getting is some small effects like loss of xp, a cor run or stuff like that, you just died! there needs to be a reason not to die i played eq in the early years and corpse runs where a pain yes but i miss it. it gave you a reason not to die.
eq1 player for 8 years cant wait for this game to come out
First of all. Sorry that my post looks so terrible. I really can't figure this editor out
Originally posted by baphamet
Originally posted by mpl1979 It is all about fun, as mentioned before. Spending an entire evening, first trying a hard boss, dying, and then trying to kill the boss (with inferior equipment) to get the previous equipment back, meanwhile losing all xp gained at that level, sounds like NOT fun. So what will happen? People will make sure that they optimize their chances of succes. Only the optimal classes. If someone screwes up, he is out! A good thing in WoW is that even if someone makes a mistake and the 40-man raid wipes, people can forgive him because you can start (almost) where you left.
What if a player messes up or dc during a fight and the group dies at a boss that keeps equipment until he is killed? Then they have to try him in sub-optimal equipment or wait the couple of hours until the equipment "returns" to a bind. I guess I would be a bit annoyed myself and maybe the player that messed up or DCed will be lucky to join a group of mine. That is not fun and that guy might never be invited to a group wth the other guys again.
So I am bit concerned that there will be no room for errors, and if that is the case the casuals will flee from the game no matter if VG has tons of very nice and innovative features. I am very excited about this game, but I am really concerned about the death-penalty system.
i understand your concerns but i suggest you read more about the current death system in vanguard. it seems that you are assuming that there will be a harsh death penalty for every mob you face, witch isn't true.
alot of the time you wont have to do a naked corpse run and you will not lose all xp earned that level, that is a huge exaggeration and if you read more about the death system you will learn that the xp you lose upon death isn't as bad as eq1 is (if you have ever played that game).
i highly suggest you read this post click me it is explained in full detail and should ease some of your concerns. --------------------------------
Thanks for your response:) I realise that I am decribing some of the extreme cases, but I did take them from your link: "a giant worm that eats your corpses, and until it dies, there is no corpse to loot". I also realise that the xp penalty might not be present a long with the "eat-corpse" penalty, but if it is, then several wipes might each take a bit of of xp. Smaller penalties like "a corpse that drops with all of your items that has to be recovered or dragged out by a friend" will also be very tough to handle for many. And hard death penalty -> less tolerance I am afraid, even if most deaths will be only a small annoyance and mostly remind you that you have to focus.
I have only played WoW so I guess that is why I am so concerned about death-penalties. I also realise that WoW is targetting the broad masses, and VG might be more for "core-players". On the other hand, the huge amount of very varied possibilities that has been announced so far seems to indicate that VG is going for some broad appeal too, which I would like very much (so I can convince my friends to join as well:D)
mmm permadeath !! great idea then thered be a lot less smack talking 12 year olds, 'me am pwn u!!!11oneone'
Originally posted by baphamet
Originally posted by Gorilla So I guess perma death would suit you hard core guys?
no not in a item-centric game like vanguard, although i did enjoy diablo2's hardcore system where there was permadeath. i think permadeath would be awsome in the right game, just not vanguard.
mmm permadeath !! great idea then thered be a lot less smack talking 12 year olds, 'me am pwn u!!!11oneone' Originally posted by baphamet
Originally posted by GorillaSo I guess perma death would suit you hard core guys?
no not in a item-centric game like vanguard, although i did enjoy diablo2's hardcore system where there was permadeath. i think permadeath would be awsome in the right game, just not vanguard. ____________________________________________
Yeah guess there would be less ppl generally Perhaps a server with the possibilty and the hardcore players get a bonus, for example on xp.
yea of course there should be non-permadeath servers too, it isnt for everyone, also the bonus xp idea could work, those permadeath players would be huge juicy targets.
HELL YEAH there should be open pvp, makes everything more interesting and realistic; though swgs covert/overt system was pretty thoughtful too. Though i think pvp death should be less punishing than vs. npc or you would just scare away more people from it. IMO there should definitely be permadeath, for the same reasons there should be open pvp, more REALISTICITY. Of course as the same situation as pvp there should be a lesser consequence for dieing vs. a player, or more preferably getting rid of permadeath entirely vs. players. This would help the continuos ganking.
On a more realistic note, there should definitely be common player friendliness ingame. Through player friendliness a game becomes popular, and through a game becoming popular more commoners and hardcore players come. Even at times converting commoners to hardcore pvpers.
Originally posted by Phoenixs This is how I see challenge:
Challenge is not:
Grinding for hours to get a exp debth away. Grinding for hours to get enough gold to do repairs. Grinding for thousands of hours just to get something.
Challenge is:
Something that takes skill. Something that you have to master. Something that requires a little of the thing called a brain. There is nothing more braindead than grinding. Beating a hard boss, that requires tons of work on strategies, the encounter and the execution, and not tons of work on a deathpenalty from a wipe.
Grinding has nothing to do with challenge. It's just something to feed to braindead zombies with to much time on their hands. Grind is just there when the devs are to clueless to find out something else to make you stay untill the next amount is drawn from your cc.
I think the idea there sport is that you are suppose to THINK about the encounter you are fighting. Smartly played = more skill = less death. XP loss is the pain to teach to you think. Without it, people will push to mobs over their level because a) better loot b) better xp c) no penalty for dying. easy mode is not challenge. But I see where you are coming from.
Thanks for your response:) I realise that I am decribing some of the extreme cases, but I did take them from your link: "a giant worm that eats your corpses, and until it dies, there is no corpse to loot". I also realise that the xp penalty might not be present a long with the "eat-corpse" penalty, but if it is, then several wipes might each take a bit of of xp. Smaller penalties like "a corpse that drops with all of your items that has to be recovered or dragged out by a friend" will also be very tough to handle for many. And hard death penalty -> less tolerance I am afraid, even if most deaths will be only a small annoyance and mostly remind you that you have to focus.
I have only played WoW so I guess that is why I am so concerned about death-penalties. I also realise that WoW is targetting the broad masses, and VG might be more for "core-players". On the other hand,, which I would like very much (so I can convince my friends to join as well:D)
yeah, the only thing i can tell you is try it for yourself. if you have only played wow and like the feeling of accomplishment that it gives you when you finally get an item you have been wanting or beat a boss that you have wanted to beat for a long time....then i think you will love a game like vanguard.
from reading about the current death penalty i don't think it is as bad as most people think it will be, but then again if you have only played wow then I'm sure to you it could be bad.
wow has virtually no death penalty other than the money sink at higher levels after you start getting epic gear. i actually welcome a death penalty as long as it isn't as bad or worse than eq1 was (that was my first mmo).
it has already been confirmed that it will not be as bad as eq1 and i agree with you that " the huge amount of very varied possibilities that has been announced so far seems to indicate that VG is going for some broad appeal too".
again i suggest you try it for yourself and decided, i really don't think it is going to be as bad as you think it will be. oh and the case with the "worm" from what i have read is a very rare case, and I'm not sure that you would ever have to endure a encounter like that if you didn't want to.
I'm guessing it will probably be a high end encounter maybe even a raid so i wouldn't worry to much about that.
I definately will try it and I guess that I should trust the developers on making balanced death-penalties. The fact that they are already aware that it can be an important issue is quite reassuring.
Corpse retrievals are so 1999ish. I know some people swear corpse retrievals make a game more fun. I swear it puts players into "play it safe mode", inhibits exploring and adventuring - and fun.
Sigil, copy the WoW death system, please. It is a tried and true, popular system.
Or, best of all worlds, give players a choice. Servers with the brutal death system, and servers with a WoW type death system.
Originally posted by bhwama Corpse retrievals are so 1999ish. I know some people swear corpse retrievals make a game more fun. I swear it puts players into "play it safe mode", inhibits exploring and adventuring - and fun. Sigil, copy the WoW death system, please. It is a tried and true, popular system. Or, best of all worlds, give players a choice. Servers with the brutal death system, and servers with a WoW type death system.
Trust me, only WoW is WoW and the last thing we need is another game trying to be WoW.
I welcome a death penalty too, but the thing that killed my interest in FFXI was the fact that I could lose levels. Losing XP is acceptabel but losing levels was what did it for me and I quit FFXI. Im going to play Vanguard but I soo hope hope they'll not let you lose levels.
One of the basic reasons for ppl who want the corpse retrieval is they played EQ1 and remember it as the best time in MMOs the had. I didnt play EQ1 ever, but I have some questionmarks behing this idea.
1. It MAY be that this is the "pink glasses" of memory. In the past all things appear nicer than they were. They recall the great times in EQ1 but the human mind tends to forget about the bad times.
2. First Love - Syndrome: like our frist girlfriend/boyfriend this first person is always idolized, some model who is a measure for all lovers to follow. I know most of my friends who played multiple MMO love the MMO they played for a longer period the first time is their favourite. It has become their measure to compare other games to like the first love.
3. Most important: EQ1 corpse retrieval was 1999. SEVEN years ago! I think the MMO and the gaming community has changed. Back then most MMO players where a rather similar group of people, with similar socialisation, background, values and so on. The world has changed in seven years, and so has the MMO gaming community. I dont think any game can recreate the spirit of EQ1. People are much more self-centered and have a shorter span of attention than in 1999. Because this is so, corpse retrieval cant reanimate the EQ1 spirit.
I take any bet the death penality of VSoH WILL grow less and less over time; this has been the way in practically all MMOs. Don't say nay for the sake of nay-saying! :P
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
"3. Most important: EQ1 corpse retrieval was 1999. SEVEN years ago! I think the MMO and the gaming community has changed. Back then most MMO players where a rather similar group of people, with similar socialisation, background, values and so on. The world has changed in seven years, and so has the MMO gaming community. I dont think any game can recreate the spirit of EQ1. People are much more self-centered and have a shorter span of attention than in 1999. Because this is so, corpse retrieval cant reanimate the EQ1 spirit.
I take any bet the death penality of VSoH WILL grow less and less over time; this has been the way in practically all MMOs. Don't say nay for the sake of nay-saying! :P"
Well , we don't know just what the death system will be like right now in Vanguard. Mr. McQaid in his official faq ( stickied here and a good read) says the corpse retrievals will be important to gameplay. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt at this point. EQ1 was my first mmorpg, it had an undeniable magic to it, and I am rooting for him and Sigil.
Yep, we won't know how good or bad the death system is until some beta testers say, " The death system is not as bad as it sounds until you die somewhere." hehe, like they did in EQ2.
Comments
may i ask why you think eqs combat is fun but you think vanguard's wont? and if it is not the combat what is it? i loved eq1 but lets be honest, the combat was not why it was so fun (at least not for me).
I will do my best to answer, but it's hard to put into words. I am also giving you the benefit of the doubt that you actually want my opinion, since normally you just flame me lol.
An online game (this one and all of them that I know about) try to be two things : (1) a game and (2) an online world where you feel present in a compelling and interesting place. There can be tension between those two goals. If you put in too much "game" you can lose the feel of the world, and if you put in too much world you can lose the feel of the game. For example, if you have to travel long distances that increaes the feel of being in a realistic world, but if you really aren't accomplishing anything while you do it you lose some gameplay. Likewise, if you find yourself working hard to move an xp bar there is a definite game element to that, but you lose the sense of being in a fantasy setting. Striking a balance between these two goals is the real art of design.
While EQ1 and WoW are very different in many ways, what they have in common, at least for me, is that in both games I enjoy the gameplay while not losing the sense that I am present in a fantasy setting. The balance is struck in an acceptable way. You are gaming but you also feel immersion in that setting. That is what I mean by "fun."
In my opinion, Vanguard fails to strike the balance. Before I explain why, let me point out that a lot of people on these boards knee jerk assume that if you don't like Vanguard you must want some super easy game where everything just falls into your lap. I can't speak for every player but that certainly isn't true for me. I would be perfectly happy playing a game where it took me three or four years to reach max level, and where I never had the best items, etc., so long as it was a fun and compelling journey along the way.
Vanguard is, and this is a key phrase that their own Devs use, an ultra item centric game. It's all about the items, having them or not having them. Now of course, items are important in EQ1 and WoW also, but Vanguard goes beyond that. You don't have a character in Vanguard. You have a clothes hanger. They may as well do away with the face and the hair and the arms and just depict a floating clothes hanger. Your skill doesn't matter. You don't matter. It's every bit 100% totally the sum of your items.
I could never be immersed in such a world. They have taken one aspect of online gaming - the aquisition of items - and elevated it above, and to the exclusion, of almost everything else. To me that is boring as hell.
But that's just the tip of the iceberg. You have to look at why they did that. And once you understand the why you will understand my antipathy for this game. Brad believes (and he believes this because his peer group believes this and he doesn't spend any time around people who don't believe this) that what every player wants is to have better stuff than the next guy. He believes that we all look up to, admire, and aspire to be the guy in the game with the best stuff. It absolutely never occurs to him that many of us don't join guilds like Fires of Heaven because we can't or don't have enough time, but because we don't want to. Vanguard is designed to instill in every player an accute sense of inadequacy and weakness so that they will feel compelled to buy into Brad's ultra item centric view of online gaming, and keep plugging away to get more items.
I see that as unbalanced, in the sense that there is too much emphasis on gameplay mechanics and too little emphasis on the sheer fun of playing a fantasy character in an online adventure setting. When I played EQ1, I was never uber. I never had the best stuff. I couldn't experience all the content. But damn was I having fun! I was having fun because the game allowed me to have fun. My gear, whilst not the greatest, was sufficient for me to have a good time in many compelling and enjoyable zones. I was not relegated to clearing wandering yard trash pawned off as "solo/small group" content because the game simply would not let me enjoy myself until good enough items were aquired.
So that's my main complaint. Vanguard is the Syms meets EQ. 98% of the focus is on dressing up. And as I admit there is some of that in all of these games, Vanguard really is third generation in the sense that it has taken the worst element of online gaming and amplified it beyond all recognition.
Wow this was a very well thought out response. Although my view on this is a bit different. While I too avoid "uber guilds" like FoH or the like for largely the same reason as you. I have played and enjoyed many MMORPGs and in my opinion Content is king! Variety in content is key. I do want to be able to play at my own pace to stick to small groups and in general participate in a complex and compelling world.
What I fail to see is how Vanguard would limit me from doing any of these things. Like you, I have been able to do thins in all previous games of this type. Now one of your primary example of why this wont work is that it will be Item centric. but you then trivialize this same approch in both WoW and EQ1 when both of these are very item centric, as an example a war in WoW as stated by blizzard is 100% dependent on what gear she has.does this mean I have not enjoyed my warior with out the best gear.. no quite the opposite. If we look at EQ1 it to was based on gear it was really amaizing to me how many time I saw people get turned down for a group for not having the exact right peice of equipment. did this stop me from enjoying EQ for 6 years. no I simply stayed away from the "uber Leet" guilds and had a blast.. one major difference that I have seen in Vanguard is that unlike EQ1 where a solo player faught the same content designed for groups .. which it was. Vanguard will also offer areas that are "easier" for soloing. this does not meen that a solo play cannot enter these "group areas" (which IMHO is all that EQ really had) and with caution and skill progress. it just meens that there is an alternative. not to mention that a majority of the content is designed for groups, which in its current state consists of 6 people. this by no means would necessitate the need to be in a large uber guild. but there is raiding there for those who enjoy it. and I think thats great.. I may even at some point participate in that as I have done in past games, it just won't be my focus or my true source of enjoyment.
in addition it appears to me that with the other Two "spheres" there will be a large degree of alternate content that could equate to endless hours of entertainment. these are aspects that have truely been missing in current mmorpgs and I am very interested to see how they turn out in reality, but the potential is there.
so I will continue to wait and see how all this plays out once released. I enjoyed EQ I still enjoy Wow and I even enjoyed LineageII for a long time and it really as almost no built in content for an MMORPG.
A game in the end in my opinion is really what you make of it. and at this point all we can do is speculate just like we have had to do with any other game in developement. However again in my opinion we have been fed alot more info on this game then most other betas I have followed and as much as people complain about it Brads active involvement in the community surpasses any I have ever seen. which for me is a breath of fresh air.
Thank you for your post I truely enjoyed your opinion
~Aruvia~
yep, and whats funny is those same people actually want to play a mmorpg. they need to realize that these games are all time sinks, if they don't like time sinks they should probably look for a different genre of games to be playing, dont shoot the messenger, thats just how it is.
In my opinion there is a very big difference between time invested in entertainment and time waisted in meaningless and tedious ways that subtranct from the entertainment.
I do however feel that time investment is one aspect of the over all dificulty of a game, I do not feal tedious grinding is in and of itself dificult. so I think that if a game has esp loss as a penalty for death then it is importand that exp gain is entertaining. There are benafits to a death penalty such as encourging people to excersize caution adding a sense of fear and of occomplishment for sucess. a death penalty alone does not ruin enjoyment for me if I enjoy playing the game then I just enjoy it longer while I make up the experience loss/debt and I learn from my mistake and continue on. A death penalty should sting a little though or there is no penalty and with no penalty where is the risk? where is the accomplishment?
again in my opinion a death penalty can be good, but it can also be bad especially if the game is just tedious grinding and if a game is just tedious I most likely wont enjoy the game and then... its not my concern=)
As for how this plays out in Vanguard, We will have to wait and see if I enjoy playing the game and I find experience gain entertaining then I won't mind the death penalty as mmorpgs in my opinion are about investing time in entertainment.
~Aruvia~
I don't cry over death penality. I just DECIDED that I will NEVER play a game with corpse run where I need a 2nd gear again. Period.
I can think of many ways to make death not easy. XP loss or debt in itself is ALREADY a penality, and every MMO player should know if you die some times because you went with a bad group, it can take a LONG time to work all the debt/loss out. So I feel it is a double penality.
You may recover a shard, like once in EQ2 or so. I dont like CR, never will and never will play Vanguard if it is in all servers and no other ruleset servers. I love all other things about Vanguard I have heard so far, but some things are not in the bag to be negotiated.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
So I'm a power leveling brain dead zombie cry baby non hardcore player who wants to hijack your game?
Harsh death penalties = less risk taking.
Less risk taking /= skill
Less risk taking = less solo play, less exploring, more research
Harsh death = More leetism, more cookie cutting, more cliquey grouping, more abusive chat
Grats to the leet guilds who baby sit their nubs and 'beat' the game. I'll be off exploring some place in a small group trying for the 10th time to get my corpse back.
ok please dont take this as a flame. I am mearly experessing my opinion and disagreement.
I think you are right to a certain extent, But I do feel death penalty = less thoughtless actions that result in everyone dying, but not necessarily less taking calculated risks.
I mix an extensive amount of solo play and exploring is by far one of my favorite things in MMORPGs and I have done both in games with sever death penalties as have many people.
and to the next line.. that to me sounds like an average day in WoW which has no death penalty so unfortunatly in my experience death penalty has no real affect on this. ..
"leet guilds" and thier ilk will exist in every game with or without death penalties, wheather its a casual game, a hardcore game or anything inbetween they will always be there.
It is all about fun, as mentioned before. Spending an entire evening, first trying a hard boss, dying, and then trying to kill the boss (with inferior equipment) to get the previous equipment back, meanwhile losing all xp gained at that level, sounds like NOT fun.
So what will happen? People will make sure that they optimize their chances of succes. Only the optimal classes. If someone screwes up, he is out! A good thing in WoW is that even if someone makes a mistake and the 40-man raid wipes, people can forgive him because you can start (almost) where you left.
What if a player messes up or dc during a fight and the group dies at a boss that keeps equipment until he is killed?
Then they have to try him in sub-optimal equipment or wait the couple of hours until the equipment "returns" to a bind. I guess I would be a bit annoyed myself and maybe the player that messed up or DCed will be lucky to join a group of mine.
That is not fun and that guy might never be invited to a group wth the other guys again.
So I am bit concerned that there will be no room for errors, and if that is the case the casuals will flee from the game no matter if VG has tons of very nice and innovative features.
I am very excited about this game, but I am really concerned about the death-penalty system.
Well then you won't be playing Vanguard, which may or may not be the best MMORPG ever created. Too bad man, take care. And btw you won't need a second set of gear, unless you're completely anal retentive. Anyway, you made your mind up it sounds like, guess I can't say see you in Vanguard.
Corpse runs, for me, are a daydream deterrent. When death is meaningful is when, for me, the game really becomes immersive. In WoW, death meant literally nothing. This will not be the case in Vanguard.
i understand your concerns but i suggest you read more about the current death system in vanguard. it seems that you are assuming that there will be a harsh death penalty for every mob you face, witch isn't true.
alot of the time you wont have to do a naked corpse run and you will not lose all xp earned that level, that is a huge exaggeration and if you read more about the death system you will learn that the xp you lose upon death isn't as bad as eq1 is (if you have ever played that game).
i highly suggest you read this post click me it is explained in full detail and should ease some of your concerns.
i pretty much agree with all of this, there are games that are huge grinds that are just not fun for me. but my point is if you hate time sinks then you hate all mmorpg's lol.
every game turns into a time sink, so i don't buy the argument "People don;t hate Death Penalties, They hate Time Sinks." yeah a death penalty where you lose xp is another form of a time sink if you die alot, but i don't think thats why most people hate death penalties.
i think they hate it because when they die they suffer a set back and they don't like that, they don't want to have to pay for their mistakes...they are willing to invest tons of time in the rest of the game but when they die they don't want to suffer a set back.
that is just my opinion and I'm sure everyone has their own reasons for not wanting death penalties, it just kills me when people complain about timesinks only when it is no longer convenient for them, like when they die.
i think there should be effects form death come on it is death! all you are getting is some small effects like loss of xp, a cor run or stuff like that, you just died! there needs to be a reason not to die i played eq in the early years and corpse runs where a pain yes but i miss it. it gave you a reason not to die.
eq1 player for 8 years cant wait for this game to come out
First of all. Sorry that my post looks so terrible. I really can't figure this editor out
Originally posted by baphamet
Originally posted by mpl1979
It is all about fun, as mentioned before. Spending an entire evening, first trying a hard boss, dying, and then trying to kill the boss (with inferior equipment) to get the previous equipment back, meanwhile losing all xp gained at that level, sounds like NOT fun.
So what will happen? People will make sure that they optimize their chances of succes. Only the optimal classes. If someone screwes up, he is out! A good thing in WoW is that even if someone makes a mistake and the 40-man raid wipes, people can forgive him because you can start (almost) where you left.
What if a player messes up or dc during a fight and the group dies at a boss that keeps equipment until he is killed?
Then they have to try him in sub-optimal equipment or wait the couple of hours until the equipment "returns" to a bind. I guess I would be a bit annoyed myself and maybe the player that messed up or DCed will be lucky to join a group of mine.
That is not fun and that guy might never be invited to a group wth the other guys again.
So I am bit concerned that there will be no room for errors, and if that is the case the casuals will flee from the game no matter if VG has tons of very nice and innovative features.
I am very excited about this game, but I am really concerned about the death-penalty system.
i understand your concerns but i suggest you read more about the current death system in vanguard. it seems that you are assuming that there will be a harsh death penalty for every mob you face, witch isn't true.
alot of the time you wont have to do a naked corpse run and you will not lose all xp earned that level, that is a huge exaggeration and if you read more about the death system you will learn that the xp you lose upon death isn't as bad as eq1 is (if you have ever played that game).
i highly suggest you read this post click me it is explained in full detail and should ease some of your concerns.
--------------------------------
Thanks for your response:)
I realise that I am decribing some of the extreme cases, but I did take them from your link: "a giant worm that eats your corpses, and until it dies, there is no corpse to loot". I also realise that the xp penalty might not be present a long with the "eat-corpse" penalty, but if it is, then several wipes might each take a bit of of xp. Smaller penalties like "a corpse that drops with all of your items that has to be recovered or dragged out by a friend" will also be very tough to handle for many.
And hard death penalty -> less tolerance I am afraid, even if most deaths will be only a small annoyance and mostly remind you that you have to focus.
I have only played WoW so I guess that is why I am so concerned about death-penalties. I also realise that WoW is targetting the broad masses, and VG might be more for "core-players". On the other hand, the huge amount of very varied possibilities that has been announced so far seems to indicate that VG is going for some broad appeal too, which I would like very much (so I can convince my friends to join as well:D)
no not in a item-centric game like vanguard, although i did enjoy diablo2's hardcore system where there was permadeath. i think permadeath would be awsome in the right game, just not vanguard.
Originally posted by interfekter
mmm permadeath !! great idea
then thered be a lot less smack talking 12 year olds, 'me am pwn u!!!11oneone'
Originally posted by baphamet
Originally posted by GorillaSo I guess perma death would suit you hard core guys?
no not in a item-centric game like vanguard, although i did enjoy diablo2's hardcore system where there was permadeath. i think permadeath would be awsome in the right game, just not vanguard.
____________________________________________
Yeah guess there would be less ppl generally
Perhaps a server with the possibilty and the hardcore players get a bonus, for example on xp.
(I still can't use the editor)
HELL YEAH there should be open pvp, makes everything more interesting and realistic; though swgs covert/overt system was pretty thoughtful too. Though i think pvp death should be less punishing than vs. npc or you would just scare away more people from it. IMO there should definitely be permadeath, for the same reasons there should be open pvp, more REALISTICITY. Of course as the same situation as pvp there should be a lesser consequence for dieing vs. a player, or more preferably getting rid of permadeath entirely vs. players. This would help the continuos ganking.
On a more realistic note, there should definitely be common player friendliness ingame. Through player friendliness a game becomes popular, and through a game becoming popular more commoners and hardcore players come. Even at times converting commoners to hardcore pvpers.
yeah, the only thing i can tell you is try it for yourself. if you have only played wow and like the feeling of accomplishment that it gives you when you finally get an item you have been wanting or beat a boss that you have wanted to beat for a long time....then i think you will love a game like vanguard.
from reading about the current death penalty i don't think it is as bad as most people think it will be, but then again if you have only played wow then I'm sure to you it could be bad.
wow has virtually no death penalty other than the money sink at higher levels after you start getting epic gear. i actually welcome a death penalty as long as it isn't as bad or worse than eq1 was (that was my first mmo
).
it has already been confirmed that it will not be as bad as eq1 and i agree with you that " the huge amount of very varied possibilities that has been announced so far seems to indicate that VG is going for some broad appeal too".
again i suggest you try it for yourself and decided, i really don't think it is going to be as bad as you think it will be. oh and the case with the "worm" from what i have read is a very rare case, and I'm not sure that you would ever have to endure a encounter like that if you didn't want to.
I'm guessing it will probably be a high end encounter maybe even a raid so i wouldn't worry to much about that.
I definately will try it and I guess that I should trust the developers on making balanced death-penalties. The fact that they are already aware that it can be an important issue is quite reassuring.
Corpse retrievals are so 1999ish. I know some people swear corpse retrievals make a game more fun. I swear it puts players into "play it safe mode", inhibits exploring and adventuring - and fun.
Sigil, copy the WoW death system, please. It is a tried and true, popular system.
Or, best of all worlds, give players a choice. Servers with the brutal death system, and servers with a WoW type death system.
Wow.
Delzo wrote:
Trust me, only WoW is WoW and the last thing we need is another game trying to be WoW.
Wow.
Hehe I stand corrected Delzo. Let Vanguard be Vanguard and do things their way. Sigil must know how/why they are doing things like they are.
One of the basic reasons for ppl who want the corpse retrieval is they played EQ1 and remember it as the best time in MMOs the had. I didnt play EQ1 ever, but I have some questionmarks behing this idea.
1. It MAY be that this is the "pink glasses" of memory. In the past all things appear nicer than they were. They recall the great times in EQ1 but the human mind tends to forget about the bad times.
2. First Love - Syndrome: like our frist girlfriend/boyfriend this first person is always idolized, some model who is a measure for all lovers to follow. I know most of my friends who played multiple MMO love the MMO they played for a longer period the first time is their favourite. It has become their measure to compare other games to like the first love.
3. Most important: EQ1 corpse retrieval was 1999. SEVEN years ago! I think the MMO and the gaming community has changed. Back then most MMO players where a rather similar group of people, with similar socialisation, background, values and so on. The world has changed in seven years, and so has the MMO gaming community. I dont think any game can recreate the spirit of EQ1. People are much more self-centered and have a shorter span of attention than in 1999. Because this is so, corpse retrieval cant reanimate the EQ1 spirit.
I take any bet the death penality of VSoH WILL grow less and less over time; this has been the way in practically all MMOs. Don't say nay for the sake of nay-saying! :P
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Elikal wrote:
"3. Most important: EQ1 corpse retrieval was 1999. SEVEN years ago! I think the MMO and the gaming community has changed. Back then most MMO players where a rather similar group of people, with similar socialisation, background, values and so on. The world has changed in seven years, and so has the MMO gaming community. I dont think any game can recreate the spirit of EQ1. People are much more self-centered and have a shorter span of attention than in 1999. Because this is so, corpse retrieval cant reanimate the EQ1 spirit.
I take any bet the death penality of VSoH WILL grow less and less over time; this has been the way in practically all MMOs. Don't say nay for the sake of nay-saying! :P"
Well , we don't know just what the death system will be like right now in Vanguard. Mr. McQaid in his official faq ( stickied here and a good read) says the corpse retrievals will be important to gameplay. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt at this point. EQ1 was my first mmorpg, it had an undeniable magic to it, and I am rooting for him and Sigil.
Yep, we won't know how good or bad the death system is until some beta testers say, " The death system is not as bad as it sounds until you die somewhere." hehe, like they did in EQ2.