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SW:G...How do you NOT know why this game went sour?

I have surfed MMORPG for a couple of years now, never feeling the need to register or post.  Typically, the only posts I would care to make are on topics that I'm passionate about, and typically I would regin myself in before I said what I wanted to anyway...and thus no point in posting.

I have been reading threads about SW:G on this site and others for years.  I bought the game as soon as it hit reatail, went throgh all the bugs, crashes, patches for several months (before CU was even a topic, much less an update).  I played right up through the Holo-grinding, trying to "unlock my force-sensitive slot", as mythical as that sounds now :)  You know what?  I LOVED the game.  I loved playing a Carbineer/CH.  I loved respeccing to BE/CH.  Some things annoyed me, like missing the shuttle and having to wait several minutes for the next, PvP class balance, etc...but deep down, I loved the game.  I got burned out on profession swapping trying to unlock my Jedi, and I took a long break (that ended up being permanent).

That's a bit of past, now a bit on the present, and subject of this topic.  Why is it that the die-hard fans of SW:G did not see this coming?  Why is it that the die-hard fans of SW:G take NO RESPONSIBILITY in the current state of the game?  Let me define die-hard as it relates to my useage.  I define die-hard as one that plays the game, keeps up with all the changes, both present and future, and most importantly, posts on SW:G related forums, be they official (Sony) or popular (like MMORPG.com).  You, the posters of the SW:G community, are at least partly to blame for the damage to a game that so many loved.

Now, you may be thinking "How dare you?!", or the popular "You never post, noob, so your opinion doesn't count!", but hear me out.  As I said above, though I never have been an active poster on any sight, I do visit them almost daily.  I do keep abreast of new and changes to the games that I'm interested in.  During my stint in SW:G, I read the boards daily.  What did I see predominantly on these boards?  "Oh my God, this is sooo not Star Warsy".  First, I didn't know "Warsy" was a word.  Secondly, most of the community that posted seemed to think Rangers, Creature Handlers, Bio Engineers, Entertainers, etc., did not have a place in a universe like Star Wars.  I'm not trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill here.  These posts literally clogged the forums on a daily basis during the several months I played SW:G.  I took offense to these, mainly because my favorite characters were CH, Ranger, and BE.  Where are those professions now?  Ahh, part of the big changes in an effort to make the game more "Star Warsy".  What started as an outcry to make the game more "Star Warsy", ended in the snowballing of changes that is now the NGE, whether you care for it or not.

Would there have been such sweeping changes to the game had such an outcry not existed?  Never.  The community was the inpetus for change, Sony's main error was in thinking that the vocal minority represented the whole, and that they (SOE) knew what players wanted without consulting them first.  So there it is.  If you were not one of the many (posters, keep in mind, are an incredibly small percentage of the total that play a game) that clamored for change and "more Star Warsy-ness", then your hands are clean.  If you are one of these individuals...congratulations...I hope you enjoy the fruits of you labor.  Did you ask for the thing that is SW:G-NGE?  Of course not, but you did cause Sony to rethink their whole vision of SW:G, which is never a good thing for customers of SOE.

Many of you make excellent points about SOE; all of them they deserve.  What bothers me is the complete lack of culpability of the playerbase who were clamoring for change from the beginning.

Comments

  • CastleGoobCastleGoob Member Posts: 134

    Maybe a poll on the nge or the cu an longer time on the test server would have shown how the community felt about these changes.

    But that's the problem and why the community bit back so hard. The NGE was designed for a player base or target audience that wasn't currently playing.

    Well this didn't happen they gambled we lost the game we enjoyed and they lost a large chunk of there player base.

    Now they openly admit the nge was a bad move. And one can only hope they have learned from this.

    This doesnt remove the fact that they treated loyal customers badly and well what you see on just about every forum with SWG is the result.

    Are the players asking for improvement of the game the way it was to blame. of course not how can they be.

    If sony had truly wanted the player bases opinion a simple poll would have shown them, but they didn't want to hear it so (shrugs).

  • KenshuAniKenshuAni Member CommonPosts: 851


    Originally posted by Zionnax

    That's a bit of past, now a bit on the present, and subject of this topic.  Why is it that the die-hard fans of SW:G did not see this coming?  Why is it that the die-hard fans of SW:G take NO RESPONSIBILITY in the current state of the game?  Let me define die-hard as it relates to my useage.  I define die-hard as one that plays the game, keeps up with all the changes, both present and future, and most importantly, posts on SW:G related forums, be they official (Sony) or popular (like MMORPG.com).  You, the posters of the SW:G community, are at least partly to blame for the damage to a game that so many loved.


    This is a statement that covers a broad range of people.  Fanbois, trolls, flamers, and all the other negative terms as well as all the other posters that try to post constructive threads about the game.


    Now, you may be thinking "How dare you?!", or the popular "You never post, noob, so your opinion doesn't count!", but hear me out.  As I said above, though I never have been an active poster on any sight, I do visit them almost daily.  I do keep abreast of new and changes to the games that I'm interested in.  During my stint in SW:G, I read the boards daily.  What did I see predominantly on these boards?  "Oh my God, this is sooo not Star Warsy".  First, I didn't know "Warsy" was a word.  Secondly, most of the community that posted seemed to think Rangers, Creature Handlers, Bio Engineers, Entertainers, etc., did not have a place in a universe like Star Wars.  I'm not trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill here.  These posts literally clogged the forums on a daily basis during the several months I played SW:G.  I took offense to these, mainly because my favorite characters were CH, Ranger, and BE.  Where are those professions now?  Ahh, part of the big changes in an effort to make the game more "Star Warsy".  What started as an outcry to make the game more "Star Warsy", ended in the snowballing of changes that is now the NGE, whether you care for it or not.

    No, I'm pretty much thinking, "ah, another one of these blame the players posts."  By the way, Master Ranger for a year here. 

    /ranger salute 

    Tell me something, did you ever read the ranger forums at the SOE boards?  During the pre-CU, those forums were FILLED with constructive posts about what rangers would like to see happen.  The majority of those posts were ignored or had ideas taken from them and applied to other professions (cover, for example).



    Would there have been such sweeping changes to the game had such an outcry not existed?  Never.  The community was the inpetus for change, Sony's main error was in thinking that the vocal minority represented the whole, and that they (SOE) knew what players wanted without consulting them first.  So there it is.  If you were not one of the many (posters, keep in mind, are an incredibly small percentage of the total that play a game) that clamored for change and "more Star Warsy-ness", then your hands are clean.  If you are one of these individuals...congratulations...I hope you enjoy the fruits of you labor.  Did you ask for the thing that is SW:G-NGE?  Of course not, but you did cause Sony to rethink their whole vision of SW:G, which is never a good thing for customers of SOE.

    Yes, there would have been sweeping changes. You seem to forget one thing.  The NGE wasn't made with the CURRENT players in mind.  It was made in order to appeal to WoW players.  This is the ultimate proof that SOE wasn't even listening to the players when they made the NGE and pushed it live. 

    They KNEW they would upset their current players.  All of the excuses given at the time of the NGE were just a diversion.  Do you think that they honestly would have pushed out the NGE and stated, "We know the majority of the current players will not like these changes, but we are pushing them live because we are hoping that we can draw players from WoW with this unfinished and buggy product." 




    Many of you make excellent points about SOE; all of them they deserve.  What bothers me is the complete lack of culpability of the playerbase who were clamoring for change from the beginning.


    Hey, I played and liked the game pre-NGE.  SOE made it clear that they didn't care what I liked and wanted to bring in subscriptions from a players that like the appeal of WoW.  How is that possibly my fault or the fault of those like me?
  • RekrulRekrul Member Posts: 2,961
    And it's woman's fault that she got raped. After all, she did dress seductively.


    Um, no. A competent MMO manager would know what is needed and what is not.

    Secondly, the game was never sompleted. If one of your lead designers says game launched with all systems in alpha state you're going to get a lot of whining.

    Players pay. They voted with wallets. They didn't want NGE. Ever.


  • ZionnaxZionnax Member Posts: 107


    Originally posted by KenshuAni

    Originally posted by Zionnax

    That's a bit of past, now a bit on the present, and subject of this topic.  Why is it that the die-hard fans of SW:G did not see this coming?  Why is it that the die-hard fans of SW:G take NO RESPONSIBILITY in the current state of the game?  Let me define die-hard as it relates to my useage.  I define die-hard as one that plays the game, keeps up with all the changes, both present and future, and most importantly, posts on SW:G related forums, be they official (Sony) or popular (like MMORPG.com).  You, the posters of the SW:G community, are at least partly to blame for the damage to a game that so many loved.

    This is a statement that covers a broad range of people.  Fanbois, trolls, flamers, and all the other negative terms as well as all the other posters that try to post constructive threads about the game.

    You are correct, it does cover a lot of people.  It was not intended (and if you felt included, then that is my fault and I apologize) for active community members making POSITIVE suggestions or pointing out deficiencies in the game.  I meant the comment towards those that constantly bashed, and complained about the non "Star Warsy" feel of the game.  There were hundreds of players with thousands of posts assisting others, pointing out bugs in a constructive manner, and suggesting positive improvements within the realm of the game as it was built.  To many others didn't like the core game, and wanted something else.  That is what I refer to.



    Now, you may be thinking "How dare you?!", or the popular "You never post, noob, so your opinion doesn't count!", but hear me out.  As I said above, though I never have been an active poster on any sight, I do visit them almost daily.  I do keep abreast of new and changes to the games that I'm interested in.  During my stint in SW:G, I read the boards daily.  What did I see predominantly on these boards?  "Oh my God, this is sooo not Star Warsy".  First, I didn't know "Warsy" was a word.  Secondly, most of the community that posted seemed to think Rangers, Creature Handlers, Bio Engineers, Entertainers, etc., did not have a place in a universe like Star Wars.  I'm not trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill here.  These posts literally clogged the forums on a daily basis during the several months I played SW:G.  I took offense to these, mainly because my favorite characters were CH, Ranger, and BE.  Where are those professions now?  Ahh, part of the big changes in an effort to make the game more "Star Warsy".  What started as an outcry to make the game more "Star Warsy", ended in the snowballing of changes that is now the NGE, whether you care for it or not.

    No, I'm pretty much thinking, "ah, another one of these blame the players posts."  By the way, Master Ranger for a year here. 

    /ranger salute 

    Master Ranger/Master CH here :)

    Tell me something, did you ever read the ranger forums at the SOE boards?  During the pre-CU, those forums were FILLED with constructive posts about what rangers would like to see happen.  The majority of those posts were ignored or had ideas taken from them and applied to other professions (cover, for example).

    Read the General, CH, Ranger, and BE boards almost exclusively.  I remember the "Top issues with Rangers" thread stickied, and I remember very little of it being taken seriously.  I did see before I left (pre-cu, planet-specific camo kits were one of the last changes that benefited my Ranger before I left, if that helps the timeline for you) them talking about greatly improved camps and traps coming on the horizon.  Doubt any of that happenned before the profession was killed.



    Would there have been such sweeping changes to the game had such an outcry not existed?  Never.  The community was the inpetus for change, Sony's main error was in thinking that the vocal minority represented the whole, and that they (SOE) knew what players wanted without consulting them first.  So there it is.  If you were not one of the many (posters, keep in mind, are an incredibly small percentage of the total that play a game) that clamored for change and "more Star Warsy-ness", then your hands are clean.  If you are one of these individuals...congratulations...I hope you enjoy the fruits of you labor.  Did you ask for the thing that is SW:G-NGE?  Of course not, but you did cause Sony to rethink their whole vision of SW:G, which is never a good thing for customers of SOE.

    Yes, there would have been sweeping changes. You seem to forget one thing.  The NGE wasn't made with the CURRENT players in mind.  It was made in order to appeal to WoW players.  This is the ultimate proof that SOE wasn't even listening to the players when they made the NGE and pushed it live. 

    They KNEW they would upset their current players.  All of the excuses given at the time of the NGE were just a diversion.  Do you think that they honestly would have pushed out the NGE and stated, "We know the majority of the current players will not like these changes, but we are pushing them live because we are hoping that we can draw players from WoW with this unfinished and buggy product." 

    I remember SOE's stance and comments well, may they rot for them.  One point I make:  I was in a guild of about 15-20 players.  Due to frustrations with the nerfing (not improving) of the game, and the constant whine of players about the game being non "Star Warsy"...and the developers then repeating that mantra, promising to make the game more "Star Warsy", I was one of the last members of my guild before I cancelled.  Keep in mind, this was pre-cu.  My friends list not including my friends, was about 20 members long.  I remember the night I first cancelled, was a Saturday evening, prime time on Ahazi (sp?) server...0 friends, 0 guildies online.  I sighed, logged, and cancelled.  I came back several times for a day or two on different occaisions.  Always, the planets seemed more sparse, and the vendors actually stocked with ANY commodities was more rare than a Jedi (again, pre-cu and shortly after).

     It is my opinion that people were leaving in large numbers at that point, well before NGE.  Was the game dead?  Far from it.  But it never reached the subscription level that people expected of it, and when that low level began declining, the devs started trying to figure out WHY.  I feel they listened to the non "Star Warsy" chants, but not the feedback on how the community felt the game should progress.  Being SOE, they know best (HA!), and went to work laying out a new vision for SW:G; one that would greatly improve the subscription numbers.  Why worry about the 200k current subscribers, when they were hoping to attract double that in new subscriptions with their new "vision"?  I give numbers as emphasis of my point, not because they are realistic or what I believe to be actual numbers.




    Many of you make excellent points about SOE; all of them they deserve.  What bothers me is the complete lack of culpability of the playerbase who were clamoring for change from the beginning.



    Hey, I played and liked the game pre-NGE.  SOE made it clear that they didn't care what I liked and wanted to bring in subscriptions from a players that like the appeal of WoW.  How is that possibly my fault or the fault of those like me?




    100% valid point and I agree.  I was a Ranger/CH/BE throughout my time in SW:G.  You notice those professions aren't around any more...so how do you think I feel?  Again, I agree 100%.  SOE doesn't now, nor never has cared about the player.  They are a business who only cares about the dollar, to the exclusion of all else.  Anyone that plays their games knows this.  Is it acceptable?  Hell no.  Do people put up with it?  Aparently so (they are still in business).  As I said earlier, you are not the type of player, obviously, that I was referring to. 

  • ZionnaxZionnax Member Posts: 107



    Originally posted by Rekrul
    And it's woman's fault that she got raped. After all, she did dress seductively.

    I hesitate to respond, as comparing a woman's rape to anything in the video game industry is distasteful in the strongest sense.  I get your point, for sure.  I deplore the comparison you make though.

    Um, no. A competent MMO manager would know what is needed and what is not.

    I do not disagree.  I believe the boob responsible at the time for these decisions and "vision" has said on occaision that it was a mistake.  I would say it probably won't happen again because it's become synonymous for failure.  However, look at EQII.  They make changes in every publish almost making the game more and more like WoW.  The changes there have not been as severe, but it is the same mentality as what broke SW:G...so they obviously haven't learned too well from past mistakes.

    Secondly, the game was never sompleted. If one of your lead designers says game launched with all systems in alpha state you're going to get a lot of whining.

    Although the game was enjoyable for me at release, I understand people were upset about cities, mounts, etc. not being in game at release.  I never commented on this, nor were those the complaints I was referring to.  The complaints I referred to were those complaining that "You never saw a Creature Handler in Star Wars, that sucks", "There shouldn't even be Rangers in Star Wars, that is a phantasy archtype, that's not Star Warsy" blah blah blah.  People complaining about the classes (not balance, the actual validity of a class) as compared to their imperious knowledge of the Star Wars universe.  I remember posts in the Creature Handler board on a regular basis from other professions complaining about the existence of the CH profession.

    Players pay. They voted with wallets. They didn't want NGE. Ever.

    An unqualified fact; undisputable.  I would, however, suggest that players started voting with their wallets before NGE, and to an extent, before and just after CU.




  • ZionnaxZionnax Member Posts: 107


    Originally posted by CastleGoob

    Maybe a poll on the nge or the cu an longer time on the test server would have shown how the community felt about these changes.
    If sony had truly wanted the player bases opinion a simple poll would have shown them, but they didn't want to hear it so (shrugs).


    I don't think they needed a poll.  The community was vocally against it, and they knew it.  They even said, in as many words, that the current subscribers were disposable because they were hoping to draw a much larger subscriber base, of completely different players if need be.  They weren't secretive about it.  They demonstrated that they didn't care, and they pushed forward.  None of what came out was a surprise to those that kept up with the game.
  • CastleGoobCastleGoob Member Posts: 134


    Originally posted by Zionnax

    Originally posted by CastleGoob

    Maybe a poll on the nge or the cu an longer time on the test server would have shown how the community felt about these changes.
    If sony had truly wanted the player bases opinion a simple poll would have shown them, but they didn't want to hear it so (shrugs).

    I don't think they needed a poll.  The community was vocally against it, and they knew it.  They even said, in as many words, that the current subscribers were disposable because they were hoping to draw a much larger subscriber base, of completely different players if need be.  They weren't secretive about it.  They demonstrated that they didn't care, and they pushed forward.  None of what came out was a surprise to those that kept up with the game.


    Well yes i have to agree. They knew it was an unpopular move. I just wander who was behind it all in the end. I'm just saying if player base opinion matters so much to them a poll would give them numbers.

    But like you say they didn't care for what the player base at the time thought an they just went ahead even tho the red flags where showing. Pity really, i had very high hopes for this game. 

  • RekrulRekrul Member Posts: 2,961


    Originally posted by Zionnax





    Players pay. They voted with wallets. They didn't want NGE. Ever.

    An unqualified fact; undisputable.  I would, however, suggest that players started voting with their wallets before NGE, and to an extent, before and just after CU.






    SWG was always a troubled game. It attempted the alternate aproach. It was the Beta in a VHS world.

    But considering the fact that no effort went into pre-cu, compared to all what's coming out now, there was a much bigger market there.

    One of major understandings that every designer out there is emphasizing is that MMOs exist within their own market. You cannot steal market from others or expand it beyond what you have. SWG had its market cut out. It was smaller, but it would easily go above 500k if emphasis were put into quality. Just adding the legacy + others quest series would have had an impact compared to big-nothing that was added. DWB, geo caves and vette. Vette = 9x same instance, DWB grinders paradise and geo caves, well, a mid-level, no purpose loot farm.

    It was the quality that drove most people away. If you use the same criteria (the forum opinions), which may or may not be valid, you'll see too many people who loved the concept but simply wouldn't put up with poor quality. The skill whines came from players who were playing.

    How many people left for:
    1) Low content
    2) Poor combat
    3) Poor quality

    I'd say 2 was mostly an issue with current players. 1) was mostly irrelevant since those that didn't get into the sandbox model never bothered in the first place. 3) I'd say plenty as well. Especially those that started at launch.

    But go look at any other game. You get whines everywhere. Not here, but on other forums. That doesn't mean they are getting what they want. In a good game, players get what they *need*, not *want*. Big difference. And those two are always two completely different things.
  • CastleGoobCastleGoob Member Posts: 134


    Originally posted by Rekrul

    Originally posted by Zionnax





    Players pay. They voted with wallets. They didn't want NGE. Ever.

    An unqualified fact; undisputable.  I would, however, suggest that players started voting with their wallets before NGE, and to an extent, before and just after CU.






    SWG was always a troubled game. It attempted the alternate aproach. It was the Beta in a VHS world.

    But considering the fact that no effort went into pre-cu, compared to all what's coming out now, there was a much bigger market there.

    One of major understandings that every designer out there is emphasizing is that MMOs exist within their own market. You cannot steal market from others or expand it beyond what you have. SWG had its market cut out. It was smaller, but it would easily go above 500k if emphasis were put into quality. Just adding the legacy + others quest series would have had an impact compared to big-nothing that was added. DWB, geo caves and vette. Vette = 9x same instance, DWB grinders paradise and geo caves, well, a mid-level, no purpose loot farm.

    It was the quality that drove most people away. If you use the same criteria (the forum opinions), which may or may not be valid, you'll see too many people who loved the concept but simply wouldn't put up with poor quality. The skill whines came from players who were playing.

    How many people left for:
    1) Low content
    2) Poor combat
    3) Poor quality

    I'd say 2 was mostly an issue with current players. 1) was mostly irrelevant since those that didn't get into the sandbox model never bothered in the first place. 3) I'd say plenty as well. Especially those that started at launch.

    But go look at any other game. You get whines everywhere. Not here, but on other forums. That doesn't mean they are getting what they want. In a good game, players get what they *need*, not *want*. Big difference. And those two are always two completely different things.


    I guess this is one of the biggy's that sticks in my craw. The fact that by subscribing to the later stages of the PRE-CU age i was infact funding the CU and the NGE (shivers) and not paying them to improve the game core of what we had.

    It could have been longer for all I know. Not sure if they made a statement on exactly how long these things drew developement of what we had away.


  • CasualMakerCasualMaker Member UncommonPosts: 862


    Originally posted by CastleGoob


    Well yes i have to agree. They knew it was an unpopular move. I just wander who was behind it all in the end. I'm just saying if player base opinion matters so much to them a poll would give them numbers.


    My money is on LucasArts having shoved in their oar around Jan'05.  There was a monstrously big hit in the MMO world, and it was WoW not Star Wars, and LEC wanted a piece of that.  So they told SOE to convert their Combat Revamp (then in sandbox testing) into something that worked more like every other MMO game.  My reading of various of Smed's comments has hints of this: "hard working with an IP holder that doesn't understand the MMO market" and "we were not the only decision makers".
  • DelzoDelzo Member UncommonPosts: 143


    Originally posted by Zionnax




    Originally posted by Rekrul

    Secondly, the game was never sompleted. If one of your lead designers says game launched with all systems in alpha state you're going to get a lot of whining.

    Although the game was enjoyable for me at release, I understand people were upset about cities, mounts, etc. not being in game at release.  I never commented on this, nor were those the complaints I was referring to.  The complaints I referred to were those complaining that "You never saw a Creature Handler in Star Wars, that sucks", "There shouldn't even be Rangers in Star Wars, that is a phantasy archtype, that's not Star Warsy" blah blah blah.  People complaining about the classes (not balance, the actual validity of a class) as compared to their imperious knowledge of the Star Wars universe.  I remember posts in the Creature Handler board on a regular basis from other professions complaining about the existence of the CH profession.






    Whoever said you never saw creature handlers in Star Wars were asleep during Return of the Jedi. That shows that the people who spoke against Pre-CU didn't know what they were talking about.


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