Many of the anti-modders are overlooking the point that in WoW and many other games, addons are not cheating, they're not unfair. They are supported by the game itself. Saying someone is cheating by using a mod and you dont is like saying someone is cheating because they used their attack button in a fight and you didnt.
Just because you dont like one aspect of a game, doesnt make it cheating.
Fun IS justification. Im playing to have fun. I have fun writing addons. Addons make play more fun. It's the bottom line.
Unless the game comes with a recommended age limit of 16-18 and specifies the player must be a hyperactive, twitch gamer who can watch 50 lines of text scroll by in 10 seconds and pick out single words, then mods should be allowed. Bottom line, games are meant to be fun, and straining yourself to make out text clues and getting frustrated isnt fun.
Full automation is boring, and should be easily beat by any competant gamer, but pvp in MMO's is not and should not be about perception of text lines it should be about making decisions based on information given to you. All most of the mods do is equalize the amount of information a player can get. And it is equal, because everyone can use mods, they are easy to get. Anyone serious about pvp will be using mods, because a mod never misses a line of text, and even the best hyperactive twitch monkey will occasionally.
I also find it hilarious that the OP considers modding such a huge detriment to pvp in Wow yet doesn't mention the far far bigger factor of gear.
I mostly agree with the article, but one thing really naggs me.
... I am not a FPS fan; I am an MMORPG fan, so why do we tell people who want things fair again to go play Counterstrike?...
I am an FPS fan as well as a MMORPG fan and I can tell you that Counterstrike is rife with cheats. So much so that I have given up on all steam products. There is no fair play on CS, DOD,HL2,ECt. Do some research first.
Personally i disagree with in any form of competitive play anything that can be used to give an unfair advantage. It was a long regarded jedi and bounty hunter tactic to use macroing to win. For instyance pre nge jedi would macro in a timer that would reapply force aura every 30 seconds ofr so to stop it expiring and bounty hunters would similiarly do the same with there own attacks and buffs. While the nge eliminated most of this in swg a lot of people quickly figured out ways to use macros again but to a lesser extent. This is a gut feeling towards macrod combat. Macroing on a non combat side is a lot more blurry as it tends to have a huge effect on people as a rule. entertainers from swg would say otherwise i suspect.
Some of the "pro-mod" arguments I found to be very weak here. When I played WoW I never used a mod and I never had a problem cleansing/curing. I did many MC raids with my pally, NO decursive used, and I had *no* trouble keeping people cleansed. I just had to pay attention to what was going on instead of turning on a mod and going for a bowl cheetohs.
The UI isn't horrid like some people make it out to be. Since release they have continued to tweak it, adding more action bars, allowing a ready check, etc. There is nothing wrong with the UI as is now, you just have to pay attention and actually press a button or two to heal your tank! *gasp*
Mods make for lazy gamers. They want to be able to do something with less work on their part. They want to "pwn" in pvp and mods help them do that. If mods weren't allowed, I'm fully confident that the rampant botting, hacks and the like would be far less of a problem.
Not to mention the current WoW news shows keylogger and other scams going on. Guess where some of these keyloggers are? Yep, in various mods that you downloaded to deal with the "poor programming" and to reduce how "tedious" it is to press 2 buttons on your own. I have zero sympathy for people who get their account compromised through a mod they downloaded, they deserve it.
"Beating a game as intended, with only the tools given to you as intended, with effort blood sweat and tears, that means something."
This is the fundamental premise of playing MMOGs in my view. Mods, bots, multiboxers, even real time voice communication technology all violate this principle.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
The UI isn't horrid like some people make it out to be. Since release they have continued to tweak it, adding more action bars, allowing a ready check, etc.
Who do you think gave the devs the ideas for most UI changes in the first place? Yea, the modders who first created the mod from which Blizzard can steal the idea. If it was up to Blizzard, do you think they will ever have a raid UI like they have now? This the whole reason that Blizzard allowed people to create mods in beta, so that some of the good mods will be used in default UIs. When you compare some of the horrendos default UIs from other games, you will thank Blizzard and especially the modders.
Ask yourself why the end game in WOW has become so hard? its the modders fault, the uber guilds and raiders.
Since you played EQ, and admit that some of the dungeons are hard, did you blame the difficulty on the modders, too? There's a fine line between tedious and challenging. Suppose FPS created a popup asking you to confirm every time you wanted to fire a shot. You find that challenging?
Equality doesn't mean fairness. Let's say that the UI is all blue and blue is my most hated color. Whenever I play the game, I react 5% slower than others. Is that fair to me? Suppose I mod the UI to green, my favorite and now I'm as fast as other players. Is that now not fair to others because I'm now using a mod?
In short, simple ergonomics. Not everyone uses a 30 inch bat.
Its your choice, a dev won't make a game unplayable, a dev won't make end game unwinable there is no point, but a dev will react and redefine the end game over and over, instead of putting in new content or focusing on new abilities it can be very draining to constantly having to rework skills/abilities/spells, areas to stop the abuses to challenge the Mods.
Just because you're a designer doesn't mean you can predict how everyone plays the game. What if you coded in a bug and someone exploited it? Is he a cheater now? After all, you DID put that code in the game, so it MUST be fair for the player to use it to his advantage, right? I read enough about Magic design on Wizards of the Coast home page to know that the designers are not all-knowing. One team of playtesters will never compare to thousands or millions actual players going through the content. Speaking of Magic, cards can made broken by players in ways that the designers never envisioned.
Originally posted by DrowNoble Some of the "pro-mod" arguments I found to be very weak here. When I played WoW I never used a mod and I never had a problem cleansing/curing. I did many MC raids with my pally, NO decursive used, and I had *no* trouble keeping people cleansed. I just had to pay attention to what was going on instead of turning on a mod and going for a bowl cheetohs.
The UI isn't horrid like some people make it out to be. Since release they have continued to tweak it, adding more action bars, allowing a ready check, etc. There is nothing wrong with the UI as is now, you just have to pay attention and actually press a button or two to heal your tank! *gasp*
Mods make for lazy gamers. They want to be able to do something with less work on their part. They want to "pwn" in pvp and mods help them do that. If mods weren't allowed, I'm fully confident that the rampant botting, hacks and the like would be far less of a problem.
Not to mention the current WoW news shows keylogger and other scams going on. Guess where some of these keyloggers are? Yep, in various mods that you downloaded to deal with the "poor programming" and to reduce how "tedious" it is to press 2 buttons on your own. I have zero sympathy for people who get their account compromised through a mod they downloaded, they deserve it. -------------------------------------
You clearly have a POOR understanding of WoW scripting!
You don't "turn on a mod and go for a bowl of cheetohs" because your character will do NOTHING while you are gone. Any scripted character action requires a keystroke of mouse click.
The reason the UI has been greatly improved is all the great examples provided by mods. If there were no mods, over half the improvements never would have happened.
If there were no built in scripting, there would be NO EFFECT on botting and hacks! You can't bot or hack in a WoW script. All such programs are external utilities which for forbidden in the EULA.
You are completely wrong about keyloggers being associated with WoW scripts (mods). The downloads are all written in Lua source code which is interpreted by the WoW client. It is impossible for a WoW script to pass keystrokes to anything outside the WoW environment. And WoW scripts don't even start running until after you've logged in a character, so there is no way that they could see your username and password. Any keylogger would be in a prohibited external utility.
If you read my earlier post, you will better understand what can and can't be done. As your opinion is mainly based on incorrect information, it has little relevance to WoW.
I actually have a very good understanding of mods, most of my WoW friends use them and would "walk me through" the mods to try to encourage me to use them myself. I never did as they didn't impress me at all, just seemed to me to satisfy a lazy gamer. One of them went so far as to make a video of the mod in action, but I still said "bah I can do that myself, what I need a mod for?".
Oh, the "cheetohs" comment was humorous sarcasm, I thought that would of been obvious especially with the smiley I put in.
Sure I think the UI enhancements they added were a reaction to mods. I don't think that they would never of added them however. More action bars was something that was asked for back in beta, so it's not like blizzard suddenly saw a mod with more action bars and said "hey, that's a good idea!".
Scripting has a huge effect on botting and hacks. Did you know there is a script that allows a warrior to use his battle stance charge while in combat? Officially, that ability only works out of combat, so if you were doing something that allowed you to do that in combat, wouldn't that be considered a hack and/or cheat? Oh and NO I am not going to post the script here btw, you want to know about it, go search for it on the various 3rd party WoW sites, it's there.
As far as stuff being forbidden by the EULA, we all know that gold farming is rampant. Yet, it's "forbidden" how can they do that! We probably all heard or seen the hunter teleport hack in Dire Maul, but It's Forbidden! Blizzard can forbid all they want, they actually have to enforce it to make it mean anything.
I am sorry to say that YOUR information is horribly incorrect about keyloggers and mods and therefore has little relevance to WoW. If you think an unscrupulous person would say "oh I have to wait til they login before I log key strokes" that is beyond naive. Keyloggers by definition are a form of spyware, and spyware is hidden. You won't know it's there unless you notice odd things happening or run an antispyware program that can catch it. If a keylogger had a popup saying "pardon me, can I send your password info to LeetDude37?", I don't think they would be much of a problem do you?
Anyhoo, I hope this can be kept constructive. Though I sense a possible flame approaching...
DrowNoble, its obvious that you are ignorant about how scripts work! Scripting has NO effect on botting in WoW because it is IMPOSSIBLE to write a bot script in Lua. Any WoW bot is an external application, not a WoW script.
The same goes for keyloggers. A WoW script isn't even loaded into memory until you character is already logged in, therefore it is IMPOSSIBLE for it to capture your username and password. Only an external application can do that.
Please do not confuse WoW scripts with external applications. They are completely different. WoW scripts are supported by Blizzard and are completely legal. External applications that affect the WoW client aren't. Of course I know that some people use them anyways, but that is a separate issue and not relevant to the use of legal scripts in WoW. I am, of course, opposed to the use of illegal external applications, but think legal WoW scripts are great.
I'm not trying to flame you, but rather educate you so you won't mislead others by pretending to know much about scripts. You can't have a very good understanding of scripts if you rarely use them. On the otherhand, I've been developing WoW scripts for nearly 2 years (8 of which are public), wrote AC scripts for over 3 years before that and have experience with half a dozen scripting languages. Also, I've probably been doing program development for more years than you've been alive!
Ah what I thought would happen did, you made an assumption that I should of clarified before. You are equating scripts with keyloggers and they are two separate things.
A keylogger would be imbedded in a mod. That keylogger is NOT a script and WOULD load before character selection. As it is spyware you would not even know it's doing that until it's too late or your antispyware went nuts. The maker of the mod certainately wouldn't advertise that his mod has a keylogger in it, to do so would defeat the purpose of the keylogger in the first place. Again I will reiterate that a keylogger is spyware and therefore is NOT a WoW script of any kind. I hope this is clear now.
I am well aware of how scripting works. I did not use many of them myself, as I found little need to do so. My hunter had two, one would change his action bar to one set of hotkeys and then the other would change the action bar back. I did test that warrior one I mentioned, since I thought it was a bunch of B.S., but it did actually work! I only used it that once and reported it to blizzard as a possible hack and never used it again. Perhaps the word "hack" bothers some people since it is a script that is in part of the game itself, but I don't know of any other way to put it really. Perhaps saying it's an exploit would sound better?
Scripting is not the sole cause of botting but it does automate a lot and combined with an external mod, would allow for an essential hands free use of a character.
Hopefully I've clarified what I meant before and it's all clear now.
DrowNoble, I know what keyloggers are and never associated them with scripts, but it appeared that you did, so I was trying to explain why WoW script can't cause a risk from this. When you say that a keylogger would be imbeded in a mod, are you talking about a WoW script mod, or some illegal mod that runs outside of the WoW client? You really need to be more specific about these things.
I would never download and install a WoW mod that wasn't a Lua script that I could read to see what it was doing. 'External' mods are illegal and anyone who uses them deserves any problems that they may cause. Do not lump these together with legal scripts as there are major differences between them. Bots are only possible with illegal external application, so don't blame WoW scripts for them.
I'm actually on the modding side of things. I like personalization. Most folks do, which is why they mod their cars, homes, work spaces, clothes, etc. etc.
Also, I get carpal tunnel syndrome issues pretty easily, but I love MMOs, so I do what I can to make things easier on my wrist/hand. I reassign all the keybindings to those I know I can use without pain. I'll write a script or two for things I commonly do over and over so I don't end up with that repetitive stress. Does it give me an advantage over a non-modder. Sure, I suppose so. An "unfair" advantage? Not if that non-modder has the option for the exact same set up I have.
I've actually been quite pleased with how mods have been handled in World of Warcraft. Sure, folks have come up with ways to truly cheat using the system, but cheaters would find other ways to do it if modding wasn't available. Blizzard has done a pretty good job of releasing patches to disable mod-based cheating. Warcraft used to allow some movement scripting (one movement per hardware event) but hardware with repeating keystrokes made that a bottable situation. So Blizzard killed it. You used to be able to trigger macros off movement events as well, but folks started using that to "auto-trinket" out of fears and such. So Blizzard patched that out.
A blanket statement of "all mods are bad" is naive at best and more likely deliberately misleading.
The OP has the basic flawed argument of "if A is B, then B must be A". Cheating uses mods, but that does not make mod-use into cheating. By his third paragraph the editorialist has already shown this flawed logic and his bias.
He makes a good point on the one button = multiple actions. He leaves that open to interpretation and doesn't explain that to perform these multiple actions you do have to hit the scripted button multiple times. But hey, if the reader is mislead into thinking a script is 100% an AFK bot, ah well. His vagueness doesn't completely invalidate the problem though. I am hoping Blizzard will patch things to bind only one action to a script. There are plenty of mods out there that let you just keep mashing the same key over and over to perform your fight sequences. You can't really bot using this (with a hardware key repeater) because movement actions still can't be scripted.
Any MMO that 100% doesn't allow any modding probably won't be very popular. Some hardcore competitive FPS types might play it, but even they like to reassign keybindings (isn't that modding?) Hell, quite often the guy with the best hardware wins in the FPS games. Maybe the OP should stick with playing console games at public competitive events.
Just a quick note on the keylogger thing -- a straight Warcraft mod can't get your login/password. A straight Warcraft mod is a collection of text files and maybe some image files that only load after you have logged in. The mods are usually distributed as zip archives. The keyloggers get installed when unsuspecting and unknowledgeable folks download some mod distributed as an executable.
This is the last I'm going to comment on this as you STILL seem to be misunderstanding what I am saying here. I don't know how much clearer I can make it and this will be my last try.
Not once in my post did I say keyloggers and scripts are the same. I even posted before that they are distinctly separate entities.
A keylogger can run in either type of mod, it all depends on how savvy the coder is. It can be imbedded or silently installed to run in conjuction when every you launch WoW. I doubt a keylogger would load after character selection as logging your guild chat I don't think would help anyone very much.
You stated that external mods are illegal and I should not lump them together with legal scripts. I didn't, not once. I will say again that a mod, script and keylogger are all distinct and separate things.
Botting cannot be done solely with scripts, as I stated previously, but it does allow for a lot of automation in your character. I said *combine* that with a mod and you have virtually hands-free characters.
As the topic of this thread was "mods" I stated before that I do not use them, they can cause problems and unbalance the game by automating certain things people seem "tedious". The script issue was off tangent and is irrelevent to any future commentary on the issue of mods.
For the last time I'll say that keyloggers, scripts and mods are THREE different distinct things from each other. I am not stating that scripts are equal to mods, scripts are equal to spyware or any combination thereof.
I hope that NOW it is clear to you as apparently you failed to understand my previous posts.
This addon attempts to heal using the minimum rank spell to heal the one in most need of healing. It knows about +healing, takes into account level of recipient, what buffs recipient already has, etc. The algorithm for spell choice is customizable based on percentage of health the recipient has remaining. The priority algorithm is customizable based on party and raid group membership, class and individual.
-Pro target-
I got tired of having to worry about targetting an crowd controlled (CC) mob in an instance as the MA so I wrote this mod. It makes it so that when you use TAB to target a mob it will ignore anything that is CC'd. Note that this event is the ONLY way this mod will avoid targeting a CC'd mob. Crowd controlled means the mob is under the effect of at least one of the following:
adds three features to WoW: - Cooldown feedback for trinkets / spells. The semi-transparent bar appears white if every trinket/spell is ready, splits into component colors otherwise. This allows you to quickly determine the status of various abilities. - Easy activation of trinkets, especially in combination with certain spells (mages/priests). Single hotkey can be used to activate whichever supported trinket is currently up. Use /usett or /usetrinket [trinket] [pom] [ap/pi/em/cmb] to active the trinket/additional effects in macros. - Trinket swapping. You're able to set a priority list for trinkets, and TwinTrinkets will automatically equip trinkets from that list, making sure that you always have the optimal combination up. This allows effortless swapping between various active and passive trinkets depending on their cooldowns. To bring up trinket swapping configuration window, either right click on the cooldown bar, or use the /tt or /trinkets slash commands.
-Know cast-
Displays a replication of your targets spell casting bar on your UI, which can be moved around. Spell casting time is not something that is available to your WoW client, so I have provided cast times for most (if not all spells).
-Defend yourself-
Defend Yourself is a really complex addon for a really simple thing: engaging in melee combat. It does 3 main things:
1) Makes sure you enter combat when you use an offensive spell or ability on a target. 2) When you are attacked, you will enter melee combat with the aggressor 3) If you are attacked by multiple opponents, on the death of one you will immediately target and attack the new one. No forgetting between spells!
-------------------------
ALL of these are skills you should have to learn, but are viewed as "tedious" things by the wow community and thus have become macros.
I'm going to voice a controversial opinion. I think that if most gameplay within a game can be automated, that's more a problem with the game's simplicity than the mods themselves. Look at chess programs for example - a good one can beat a novice human player, but a real human master can beat any program out there. Why? Because it's a strategically deep game, so that a programmed set of rules can't match a thinking, creative human being.
If a simple set of if/then triggers can play a given game better than a real person, then it's really not worth getting hung up on the strategic "challenge" and the "skill" issues - because no such thing exists in that game in the first place (or at least, not to any degree worth mentioning).
Dasharr Eandall, SWG, Smuggler/Pistoleer (retired after 2.5+ years)
Originally posted by Dasharr I'm going to voice a controversial opinion. I think that if most gameplay within a game can be automated, that's more a problem with the game's simplicity than the mods themselves. Look at chess programs for example - a good one can beat a novice human player, but a real human master can beat any program out there. Why? Because it's a strategically deep game, so that a programmed set of rules can't match a thinking, creative human being. If a simple set of if/then triggers can play a given game better than a real person, then it's really not worth getting hung up on the strategic "challenge" and the "skill" issues - because no such thing exists in that game in the first place (or at least, not to any degree worth mentioning).
I believe that it's no longer true (the chess thing) since Deep Blue's victory over Kasparov in 1997 (which in that particular instance had as much to do with Kasparovs emotions getting the better of him as the superiour calculating mind of Deep Blue) computers have consistantly matched and/or beaten their human grand master opponents. I may be wrong on this, in which case feel free to correct me, but I am under the impression that no Grand Master has outright beaten a chess computer under tournament conditions in the last eight years.
As you can see I do not post much. But I have such strong opinons about this subject I feel I need to have them heard.
Modding in games such as WoW IMO levels the playing field somewhat. I will be the first to admit I am a lousy typist. I do not have the ability to hit the key I want without looking, multiply that by the 60 keybindings available and the game becomes unplayable to me. A lot of players that feel using mod's are "cheating" are also the players who feel like they have "worked" harder to attain their goals in game. I like to call these people "Twitchers" they have some idea that game playing should not be fun but rather a typing session and seriously I dont think that kind of thing is fun at all.
Modding in itself has been the backbone of some of the most sucessfull games in Multiplayer history. Take Quake2 as an example where game mods increased the base games longetivity by several years. AC1 where mods allowed the average player the ability to put their reagents together properly to use the magic system, I think that game may have died early on if ther hadent been a few changes to make the game appeal to a broader base.
I think many people equate mods with bots which is a general mistake. With bot macros the computer does the work. With the mods I use I still have to be there and press the buttons, I just dont have to try and remember 60 buttons and that makes the game playable to me. I would not compare mmorpg's with console games which have a controller with a set number of buttons I can play those all day and not have any problem knowing which button to press in any certain situation.
I played a friends WoW level 60 priest a couple of times and was appalled at the fact that I wasent able to enjoy the games graphic encounters because of the constant health bar watching and button pushing. I would never play a healer in any of these games because without some very basic keybinding mods the game looses all sense of immersion and becomes an ugly spreadsheet.
The OP should keep in mind that these games are produced for the average gamer to enjoy and not an outlet for twitchers with superior keyboarding skills to use theor advantage to lord it over the rest of us because they can run roughshod over the masses while typing the /spit command.
Refugee from UO,EQ,AC,AC2,AO,DAOC,L2,SB,HZ,CoH,PT,EQ2,WoW,VG,SWG,EVE,WAR,DF,MO,AI,GA,LOTRO, SWTOR... Gw2 on Deck
Originally posted by DrowNoble This is the last I'm going to comment on this as you STILL seem to be misunderstanding what I am saying here. I don't know how much clearer I can make it and this will be my last try.
Maybe I can get you to post again... First, I'm not sure if you're responding to me or someone else, as you didn't specify; I'll have to assume I was the intended receipient.
Not once in my post did I say keyloggers and scripts are the same.
Not contesting that.
A keylogger can run in either type of mod, it all depends on how savvy the coder is. It can be imbedded or silently installed to run in conjuction when every you launch WoW.
I think you're assuming a whole lot there. To run when you launch WoW, it would have to have been an executable of some sort to get installed. Regular .zip distributed mods (that are just text files in the archive) don't qualify there. As far as embedding in the mod, the mod doesn't run until after you have already logged in and picked your character. Not much in the way of login/passwords to be recorded at that point.
I doubt a keylogger would load after character selection as logging your guild chat I don't think would help anyone very much.
Very true. However, this statement only serves to contradict your previous embedding-within-the-mod idea, as mods only load after the character selection.
--- [lots of stuff about mods, scripts, keyloggers being different etc. ---
Not sure if there was just a terminology issue with all that. But script, mod, macro, add-on are all terms used to describe perfectly legal in-game modifications based on the Blizzard API provided. Usually the terms "external", "executable" and "third party program" are used to indicate the illegal type of modifications.
As the topic of this thread was "mods" I stated before that I do not use them, they can cause problems and unbalance the game by automating certain things people seem "tedious".
That's fine. Don't use them. But that doesn't make all mods (here we're talking about legal mods, as per the article) bad. There are certainly some bad mods, and those should be attacked invidually. I just don't think it should be at the complete loss of all mods, such as the ones that make it easier for me to avoid wrist numbness. Or the one that allows roleplayers to exchange storyline information more easily. Or create their own quests. Or manage their friendslists easier. Or, or, or. All these good mods enchance the game play for many, broaden the audience of the game, and help pay the bills for future improvements.
The script issue was off tangent and is irrelevent to any future commentary on the issue of mods.
Not entirely. You're right that the keylogger/spyware issue can be a reason to avoid add-ons. But I think it over simplifies things. If you understand how keyloggers and spyware work, you can easily avoid them by only installing add-ons from zip files and never running any executables.
I hope that NOW it is clear to you as apparently you failed to understand my previous posts.
I'm not sure if you intend it, but your tone for most of your post is rather confrontational. No need for that. I'm not an idiot. You're not an idiot. I just thought your original posts were a bit unclear and could lead one to think that using an add-on could put your login/password at risk. That is simply not true if you follow the simple "install add-ons only from .zip files; don't run executables" rule.
Comments
Just because you dont like one aspect of a game, doesnt make it cheating.
Fun IS justification. Im playing to have fun. I have fun writing addons. Addons make play more fun. It's the bottom line.
http://erickveil.com/
Full automation is boring, and should be easily beat by any competant gamer, but pvp in MMO's is not and should not be about perception of text lines it should be about making decisions based on information given to you. All most of the mods do is equalize the amount of information a player can get. And it is equal, because everyone can use mods, they are easy to get. Anyone serious about pvp will be using mods, because a mod never misses a line of text, and even the best hyperactive twitch monkey will occasionally.
I also find it hilarious that the OP considers modding such a huge detriment to pvp in Wow yet doesn't mention the far far bigger factor of gear.
I mostly agree with the article, but one thing really naggs me.
... I am not a FPS fan; I am an MMORPG fan, so why do we tell people who want things fair again to go play Counterstrike?...
I am an FPS fan as well as a MMORPG fan and I can tell you that Counterstrike is rife with cheats. So much so that I have given up on all steam products. There is no fair play on CS, DOD,HL2,ECt. Do some research first.
I too agree fully with the article.
Some of the "pro-mod" arguments I found to be very weak here. When I played WoW I never used a mod and I never had a problem cleansing/curing. I did many MC raids with my pally, NO decursive used, and I had *no* trouble keeping people cleansed. I just had to pay attention to what was going on instead of turning on a mod and going for a bowl cheetohs.
The UI isn't horrid like some people make it out to be. Since release they have continued to tweak it, adding more action bars, allowing a ready check, etc. There is nothing wrong with the UI as is now, you just have to pay attention and actually press a button or two to heal your tank! *gasp*
Mods make for lazy gamers. They want to be able to do something with less work on their part. They want to "pwn" in pvp and mods help them do that. If mods weren't allowed, I'm fully confident that the rampant botting, hacks and the like would be far less of a problem.
Not to mention the current WoW news shows keylogger and other scams going on. Guess where some of these keyloggers are? Yep, in various mods that you downloaded to deal with the "poor programming" and to reduce how "tedious" it is to press 2 buttons on your own. I have zero sympathy for people who get their account compromised through a mod they downloaded, they deserve it.
calranthe said:
"Beating a game as intended, with only the tools given to you as intended, with effort blood sweat and tears, that means something."
This is the fundamental premise of playing MMOGs in my view. Mods, bots, multiboxers, even real time voice communication technology all violate this principle.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
Who do you think gave the devs the ideas for most UI changes in the first place? Yea, the modders who first created the mod from which Blizzard can steal the idea. If it was up to Blizzard, do you think they will ever have a raid UI like they have now? This the whole reason that Blizzard allowed people to create mods in beta, so that some of the good mods will be used in default UIs. When you compare some of the horrendos default UIs from other games, you will thank Blizzard and especially the modders.
Since you played EQ, and admit that some of the dungeons are hard, did you blame the difficulty on the modders, too? There's a fine line between tedious and challenging. Suppose FPS created a popup asking you to confirm every time you wanted to fire a shot. You find that challenging?
Equality doesn't mean fairness. Let's say that the UI is all blue and blue is my most hated color. Whenever I play the game, I react 5% slower than others. Is that fair to me? Suppose I mod the UI to green, my favorite and now I'm as fast as other players. Is that now not fair to others because I'm now using a mod?
In short, simple ergonomics. Not everyone uses a 30 inch bat.
Just because you're a designer doesn't mean you can predict how everyone plays the game. What if you coded in a bug and someone exploited it? Is he a cheater now? After all, you DID put that code in the game, so it MUST be fair for the player to use it to his advantage, right? I read enough about Magic design on Wizards of the Coast home page to know that the designers are not all-knowing. One team of playtesters will never compare to thousands or millions actual players going through the content. Speaking of Magic, cards can made broken by players in ways that the designers never envisioned.
Originally posted by DrowNoble
Some of the "pro-mod" arguments I found to be very weak here. When I played WoW I never used a mod and I never had a problem cleansing/curing. I did many MC raids with my pally, NO decursive used, and I had *no* trouble keeping people cleansed. I just had to pay attention to what was going on instead of turning on a mod and going for a bowl cheetohs.
The UI isn't horrid like some people make it out to be. Since release they have continued to tweak it, adding more action bars, allowing a ready check, etc. There is nothing wrong with the UI as is now, you just have to pay attention and actually press a button or two to heal your tank! *gasp*
Mods make for lazy gamers. They want to be able to do something with less work on their part. They want to "pwn" in pvp and mods help them do that. If mods weren't allowed, I'm fully confident that the rampant botting, hacks and the like would be far less of a problem.
Not to mention the current WoW news shows keylogger and other scams going on. Guess where some of these keyloggers are? Yep, in various mods that you downloaded to deal with the "poor programming" and to reduce how "tedious" it is to press 2 buttons on your own. I have zero sympathy for people who get their account compromised through a mod they downloaded, they deserve it.
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You clearly have a POOR understanding of WoW scripting!
You don't "turn on a mod and go for a bowl of cheetohs" because your character will do NOTHING while you are gone. Any scripted character action requires a keystroke of mouse click.
The reason the UI has been greatly improved is all the great examples provided by mods. If there were no mods, over half the improvements never would have happened.
If there were no built in scripting, there would be NO EFFECT on botting and hacks! You can't bot or hack in a WoW script. All such programs are external utilities which for forbidden in the EULA.
You are completely wrong about keyloggers being associated with WoW scripts (mods). The downloads are all written in Lua source code which is interpreted by the WoW client. It is impossible for a WoW script to pass keystrokes to anything outside the WoW environment. And WoW scripts don't even start running until after you've logged in a character, so there is no way that they could see your username and password. Any keylogger would be in a prohibited external utility.
If you read my earlier post, you will better understand what can and can't be done. As your opinion is mainly based on incorrect information, it has little relevance to WoW.
I actually have a very good understanding of mods, most of my WoW friends use them and would "walk me through" the mods to try to encourage me to use them myself. I never did as they didn't impress me at all, just seemed to me to satisfy a lazy gamer. One of them went so far as to make a video of the mod in action, but I still said "bah I can do that myself, what I need a mod for?".
Oh, the "cheetohs" comment was humorous sarcasm, I thought that would of been obvious especially with the smiley I put in.
Sure I think the UI enhancements they added were a reaction to mods. I don't think that they would never of added them however. More action bars was something that was asked for back in beta, so it's not like blizzard suddenly saw a mod with more action bars and said "hey, that's a good idea!".
Scripting has a huge effect on botting and hacks. Did you know there is a script that allows a warrior to use his battle stance charge while in combat? Officially, that ability only works out of combat, so if you were doing something that allowed you to do that in combat, wouldn't that be considered a hack and/or cheat? Oh and NO I am not going to post the script here btw, you want to know about it, go search for it on the various 3rd party WoW sites, it's there.
As far as stuff being forbidden by the EULA, we all know that gold farming is rampant. Yet, it's "forbidden" how can they do that! We probably all heard or seen the hunter teleport hack in Dire Maul, but It's Forbidden! Blizzard can forbid all they want, they actually have to enforce it to make it mean anything.
I am sorry to say that YOUR information is horribly incorrect about keyloggers and mods and therefore has little relevance to WoW. If you think an unscrupulous person would say "oh I have to wait til they login before I log key strokes" that is beyond naive. Keyloggers by definition are a form of spyware, and spyware is hidden. You won't know it's there unless you notice odd things happening or run an antispyware program that can catch it. If a keylogger had a popup saying "pardon me, can I send your password info to LeetDude37?", I don't think they would be much of a problem do you?
Anyhoo, I hope this can be kept constructive. Though I sense a possible flame approaching...
DrowNoble, its obvious that you are ignorant about how scripts work! Scripting has NO effect on botting in WoW because it is IMPOSSIBLE to write a bot script in Lua. Any WoW bot is an external application, not a WoW script.
The same goes for keyloggers. A WoW script isn't even loaded into memory until you character is already logged in, therefore it is IMPOSSIBLE for it to capture your username and password. Only an external application can do that.
Please do not confuse WoW scripts with external applications. They are completely different. WoW scripts are supported by Blizzard and are completely legal. External applications that affect the WoW client aren't. Of course I know that some people use them anyways, but that is a separate issue and not relevant to the use of legal scripts in WoW. I am, of course, opposed to the use of illegal external applications, but think legal WoW scripts are great.
I'm not trying to flame you, but rather educate you so you won't mislead others by pretending to know much about scripts. You can't have a very good understanding of scripts if you rarely use them. On the otherhand, I've been developing WoW scripts for nearly 2 years (8 of which are public), wrote AC scripts for over 3 years before that and have experience with half a dozen scripting languages. Also, I've probably been doing program development for more years than you've been alive!
Ah what I thought would happen did, you made an assumption that I should of clarified before. You are equating scripts with keyloggers and they are two separate things.
A keylogger would be imbedded in a mod. That keylogger is NOT a script and WOULD load before character selection. As it is spyware you would not even know it's doing that until it's too late or your antispyware went nuts. The maker of the mod certainately wouldn't advertise that his mod has a keylogger in it, to do so would defeat the purpose of the keylogger in the first place. Again I will reiterate that a keylogger is spyware and therefore is NOT a WoW script of any kind. I hope this is clear now.
I am well aware of how scripting works. I did not use many of them myself, as I found little need to do so. My hunter had two, one would change his action bar to one set of hotkeys and then the other would change the action bar back. I did test that warrior one I mentioned, since I thought it was a bunch of B.S., but it did actually work! I only used it that once and reported it to blizzard as a possible hack and never used it again. Perhaps the word "hack" bothers some people since it is a script that is in part of the game itself, but I don't know of any other way to put it really. Perhaps saying it's an exploit would sound better?
Scripting is not the sole cause of botting but it does automate a lot and combined with an external mod, would allow for an essential hands free use of a character.
Hopefully I've clarified what I meant before and it's all clear now.
DrowNoble, I know what keyloggers are and never associated them with scripts, but it appeared that you did, so I was trying to explain why WoW script can't cause a risk from this. When you say that a keylogger would be imbeded in a mod, are you talking about a WoW script mod, or some illegal mod that runs outside of the WoW client? You really need to be more specific about these things.
I would never download and install a WoW mod that wasn't a Lua script that I could read to see what it was doing. 'External' mods are illegal and anyone who uses them deserves any problems that they may cause. Do not lump these together with legal scripts as there are major differences between them. Bots are only possible with illegal external application, so don't blame WoW scripts for them.
Fun reading, always gets folks excitable.
I'm actually on the modding side of things. I like personalization. Most folks do, which is why they mod their cars, homes, work spaces, clothes, etc. etc.
Also, I get carpal tunnel syndrome issues pretty easily, but I love MMOs, so I do what I can to make things easier on my wrist/hand. I reassign all the keybindings to those I know I can use without pain. I'll write a script or two for things I commonly do over and over so I don't end up with that repetitive stress. Does it give me an advantage over a non-modder. Sure, I suppose so. An "unfair" advantage? Not if that non-modder has the option for the exact same set up I have.
I've actually been quite pleased with how mods have been handled in World of Warcraft. Sure, folks have come up with ways to truly cheat using the system, but cheaters would find other ways to do it if modding wasn't available. Blizzard has done a pretty good job of releasing patches to disable mod-based cheating. Warcraft used to allow some movement scripting (one movement per hardware event) but hardware with repeating keystrokes made that a bottable situation. So Blizzard killed it. You used to be able to trigger macros off movement events as well, but folks started using that to "auto-trinket" out of fears and such. So Blizzard patched that out.
A blanket statement of "all mods are bad" is naive at best and more likely deliberately misleading.
The OP has the basic flawed argument of "if A is B, then B must be A". Cheating uses mods, but that does not make mod-use into cheating. By his third paragraph the editorialist has already shown this flawed logic and his bias.
He makes a good point on the one button = multiple actions. He leaves that open to interpretation and doesn't explain that to perform these multiple actions you do have to hit the scripted button multiple times. But hey, if the reader is mislead into thinking a script is 100% an AFK bot, ah well. His vagueness doesn't completely invalidate the problem though. I am hoping Blizzard will patch things to bind only one action to a script. There are plenty of mods out there that let you just keep mashing the same key over and over to perform your fight sequences. You can't really bot using this (with a hardware key repeater) because movement actions still can't be scripted.
Any MMO that 100% doesn't allow any modding probably won't be very popular. Some hardcore competitive FPS types might play it, but even they like to reassign keybindings (isn't that modding?) Hell, quite often the guy with the best hardware wins in the FPS games. Maybe the OP should stick with playing console games at public competitive events.
Just a quick note on the keylogger thing -- a straight Warcraft mod can't get your login/password. A straight Warcraft mod is a collection of text files and maybe some image files that only load after you have logged in. The mods are usually distributed as zip archives. The keyloggers get installed when unsuspecting and unknowledgeable folks download some mod distributed as an executable.
This is the last I'm going to comment on this as you STILL seem to be misunderstanding what I am saying here. I don't know how much clearer I can make it and this will be my last try.
Not once in my post did I say keyloggers and scripts are the same. I even posted before that they are distinctly separate entities.
A keylogger can run in either type of mod, it all depends on how savvy the coder is. It can be imbedded or silently installed to run in conjuction when every you launch WoW. I doubt a keylogger would load after character selection as logging your guild chat I don't think would help anyone very much.
You stated that external mods are illegal and I should not lump them together with legal scripts. I didn't, not once. I will say again that a mod, script and keylogger are all distinct and separate things.
Botting cannot be done solely with scripts, as I stated previously, but it does allow for a lot of automation in your character. I said *combine* that with a mod and you have virtually hands-free characters.
As the topic of this thread was "mods" I stated before that I do not use them, they can cause problems and unbalance the game by automating certain things people seem "tedious". The script issue was off tangent and is irrelevent to any future commentary on the issue of mods.
For the last time I'll say that keyloggers, scripts and mods are THREE different distinct things from each other. I am not stating that scripts are equal to mods, scripts are equal to spyware or any combination thereof.
I hope that NOW it is clear to you as apparently you failed to understand my previous posts.
*EDITED for some typos*
Repost from another thread..
Look how out of control mods are
-Smart heal-
This addon attempts to heal using the minimum rank spell to heal the one in most need of healing. It knows about +healing, takes into account level of recipient, what buffs recipient already has, etc. The algorithm for spell choice is customizable based on percentage of health the recipient has remaining. The priority algorithm is customizable based on party and raid group membership, class and individual.
-Pro target-
I got tired of having to worry about targetting an crowd controlled (CC) mob in an instance as the MA so I wrote this mod. It makes it so that when you use TAB to target a mob it will ignore anything that is CC'd. Note that this event is the ONLY way this mod will avoid targeting a CC'd mob. Crowd controlled means the mob is under the effect of at least one of the following:
* Freezing Trap
* Sap
* Sleep
* Shackle
* Seduce
* Polymorph
* Blind
Pro trinket
adds three features to WoW:
- Cooldown feedback for trinkets / spells. The semi-transparent bar appears white if every trinket/spell is ready, splits into component colors otherwise. This allows you to quickly determine the status of various abilities.
- Easy activation of trinkets, especially in combination with certain spells (mages/priests). Single hotkey can be used to activate whichever supported trinket is currently up. Use /usett or /usetrinket [trinket] [pom] [ap/pi/em/cmb] to active the trinket/additional effects in macros.
- Trinket swapping. You're able to set a priority list for trinkets, and TwinTrinkets will automatically equip trinkets from that list, making sure that you always have the optimal combination up. This allows effortless swapping between various active and passive trinkets depending on their cooldowns. To bring up trinket swapping configuration window, either right click on the cooldown bar, or use the /tt or /trinkets slash commands.
-Know cast-
Displays a replication of your targets spell casting bar on your UI, which can be moved around.
Spell casting time is not something that is available to your WoW client, so I have provided cast times for most (if not all spells).
-Defend yourself-
Defend Yourself is a really complex addon for a really simple thing: engaging in melee combat. It does 3 main things:
1) Makes sure you enter combat when you use an offensive spell or ability on a target.
2) When you are attacked, you will enter melee combat with the aggressor
3) If you are attacked by multiple opponents, on the death of one you will immediately target and attack the new one. No forgetting between spells!
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ALL of these are skills you should have to learn, but are viewed as "tedious" things by the wow community and thus have become macros.
I'm going to voice a controversial opinion. I think that if most gameplay within a game can be automated, that's more a problem with the game's simplicity than the mods themselves. Look at chess programs for example - a good one can beat a novice human player, but a real human master can beat any program out there. Why? Because it's a strategically deep game, so that a programmed set of rules can't match a thinking, creative human being.
If a simple set of if/then triggers can play a given game better than a real person, then it's really not worth getting hung up on the strategic "challenge" and the "skill" issues - because no such thing exists in that game in the first place (or at least, not to any degree worth mentioning).
Dasharr Eandall, SWG, Smuggler/Pistoleer (retired after 2.5+ years)
As you can see I do not post much. But I have such strong opinons about this subject I feel I need to have them heard.
Modding in games such as WoW IMO levels the playing field somewhat. I will be the first to admit I am a lousy typist. I do not have the ability to hit the key I want without looking, multiply that by the 60 keybindings available and the game becomes unplayable to me. A lot of players that feel using mod's are "cheating" are also the players who feel like they have "worked" harder to attain their goals in game. I like to call these people "Twitchers" they have some idea that game playing should not be fun but rather a typing session and seriously I dont think that kind of thing is fun at all.
Modding in itself has been the backbone of some of the most sucessfull games in Multiplayer history. Take Quake2 as an example where game mods increased the base games longetivity by several years. AC1 where mods allowed the average player the ability to put their reagents together properly to use the magic system, I think that game may have died early on if ther hadent been a few changes to make the game appeal to a broader base.
I think many people equate mods with bots which is a general mistake. With bot macros the computer does the work. With the mods I use I still have to be there and press the buttons, I just dont have to try and remember 60 buttons and that makes the game playable to me. I would not compare mmorpg's with console games which have a controller with a set number of buttons I can play those all day and not have any problem knowing which button to press in any certain situation.
I played a friends WoW level 60 priest a couple of times and was appalled at the fact that I wasent able to enjoy the games graphic encounters because of the constant health bar watching and button pushing. I would never play a healer in any of these games because without some very basic keybinding mods the game looses all sense of immersion and becomes an ugly spreadsheet.
The OP should keep in mind that these games are produced for the average gamer to enjoy and not an outlet for twitchers with superior keyboarding skills to use theor advantage to lord it over the rest of us because they can run roughshod over the masses while typing the /spit command.
Refugee from UO,EQ,AC,AC2,AO,DAOC,L2,SB,HZ,CoH,PT,EQ2,WoW,VG,SWG,EVE,WAR,DF,MO,AI,GA,LOTRO, SWTOR... Gw2 on Deck
Maybe I can get you to post again... First, I'm not sure if you're responding to me or someone else, as you didn't specify; I'll have to assume I was the intended receipient.
Not contesting that.
I think you're assuming a whole lot there. To run when you launch WoW, it would have to have been an executable of some sort to get installed. Regular .zip distributed mods (that are just text files in the archive) don't qualify there. As far as embedding in the mod, the mod doesn't run until after you have already logged in and picked your character. Not much in the way of login/passwords to be recorded at that point.
Very true. However, this statement only serves to contradict your previous embedding-within-the-mod idea, as mods only load after the character selection.
Not sure if there was just a terminology issue with all that. But script, mod, macro, add-on are all terms used to describe perfectly legal in-game modifications based on the Blizzard API provided. Usually the terms "external", "executable" and "third party program" are used to indicate the illegal type of modifications.
That's fine. Don't use them. But that doesn't make all mods (here we're talking about legal mods, as per the article) bad. There are certainly some bad mods, and those should be attacked invidually. I just don't think it should be at the complete loss of all mods, such as the ones that make it easier for me to avoid wrist numbness. Or the one that allows roleplayers to exchange storyline information more easily. Or create their own quests. Or manage their friendslists easier. Or, or, or. All these good mods enchance the game play for many, broaden the audience of the game, and help pay the bills for future improvements.
Not entirely. You're right that the keylogger/spyware issue can be a reason to avoid add-ons. But I think it over simplifies things. If you understand how keyloggers and spyware work, you can easily avoid them by only installing add-ons from zip files and never running any executables.
I'm not sure if you intend it, but your tone for most of your post is rather confrontational. No need for that. I'm not an idiot. You're not an idiot. I just thought your original posts were a bit unclear and could lead one to think that using an add-on could put your login/password at risk. That is simply not true if you follow the simple "install add-ons only from .zip files; don't run executables" rule.