Originally posted by solareus What do you mean by skills, Shadowbane has one of the toughest skills systems in any mmo that I played ..
There are no skills in Shadowbane. Look at EVE Online, UO, or Ryzom... those games have skills. Shadowbane is class based. You level up and you go to a trainer and get a new skill. You don't actually level up that skill.
Originally posted by poopypants 1) It allows developers to avoid having to make any content...basically they sluff this off on the mostly incompetent player base.
2) It allows non-acheivers to play without all the pressure to perform and compete...no levels = no pressure.
If you want to get the skinny on either of these games you'll have to go to other gaming websites...it's not possible to get the true story at this one.
On 1) then EVE is not a good example, I can't speak of the other game because I have not played it... however EVE does have tons of content.
2) That is just plain wrong!!! why ? you state that no levels = no pressure, it might be true but still when we train skills we do some sort of "leveling" it's always a pressure to become better or upperhand on your enemies. You also state that it allows non-acheivers to play without all the pressure to perform and compete is also very wrong, you still have to compete!!! each skill in EVE got a level actually, so if I as a producer got the skill Production efficiency I need to first train it to lvl 1, but I can't compete with someone with lvl 5 so I need to train the skill to level 5 to compete, I also need a good blueprint to even compete more !!!
When I played WoW I only got up to lvl 18 on one of my characters, the level thing there is no competition at all, all I got to do is to kill some monsters, and make sure I don't kill monsters with less level than me... that's it.. that is all I got to do to level in WoW...
Same thing is what I have done in Kal-Online as I have tried it abit... kill monsters to rise in level so I can kill more monsters... (pretty new to that game so I have not played it as much).
Anarchy Online as I tried it a couple of times ... also have to kill monsters to gain EXP. so I can progress.
Belive me I have had a argument with a friend in EVE-Online who is very much against games like WoW and I who don't really like the game do think it rocks in it's own way... the graphic is beautiful actually I just got tired fo the constant leveling, questing and well that type of gameplay. Our argument where that he did say that games like EVE and AO don't have grinding ... me on the other hand did say that these games very much do have grinding... almost as much as games like WoW.
How ? well in EVE-Online you got missionrunning, you got a set number of missions you can do, lets just take a number as 15 different missions, you shuffle through them constantly and do these missions every day, because you have learned how to do them (even level 4) you find them easy, you don't loose ships and avoid missions you know you can't do... that is grinding !!! not better than if I ran around in WoW and killed monsters to get EXP. Mining is another example... or ratting for that matter... so every game does have it's share of grinding.
Well either way I belive your post was wrong and felt I had to say something, I am no EVE-fanboi ... yeah I like EVE and I play mostly only that ... (or BF2).
Originally posted by paade Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Originally posted by SnaKey
Originally posted by solareus I thought you guys already knew that shadowbane had player created castle towns and region borders that can be sieged by other player guilds ...... I was giving a lilttle more insiight on the feeling yu have inside a sandbox...
Still not a sandbox. Lacking the major thing in sandboxes: Skills.
That and it maybe one of the top PVP games out, but it's still PVE based. The game is based around PVE, everything in the game is based around PVE. The game tells you what to do next. It has a plot for you to follow, there are many things that do not make it a sandbox.
That brings up another point. Are skills needed for a sandbox game? by that I mean skill based versus level. For my definition no it isn't. Levels can be just fine provided I can choose the skills that are needed.
e.g. Horizons, not really a sandbox game, but it has some good elements to it. I can choose whatever skills I want, and train them up. But it is a game based on levels, it still lets me completely customize my character.
Venge Sunsoar
yes but how do you gain lvls? By killing monsters (dunno if this is true in Ryzom, but every other lvl based game it is), therefore you cant be a (pure) crafter without getting some fighting skills and that means lvl based game cant be sandbox.
Sure you can, you just don't level the fighting classes. You can level tailor, and blacksmith, weaponsmith, cook... You do not need to level fighting classes at all. Course gathering some of the resources will get tricky because many are guarded but youcan do it.
So yes level based games can be sandbox, they just have to let you level whatever skills you want.
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by poopypants Originally posted by Sassymolassy Can someone tell me what a sandbox game is? I am assuming that it means PvP with battles over territory control. But you know what they say about assuming.....
Check and see what wikipedia says it is this week...one person says it's this, another says it's that.
The two lousiest MMOGs on the market claim to be sandbox games...EVE Online and Seed Online. So that's two strikes against the sandbox concept right there!
Using EVE and Seed as an example: the sandbox concept does two things...
1) It allows developers to avoid having to make any content...basically they sluff this off on the mostly incompetent player base.
2) It allows non-acheivers to play without all the pressure to perform and compete...no levels = no pressure.
If you want to get the skinny on either of these games you'll have to go to other gaming websites...it's not possible to get the true story at this one.
It takes far more work to make good tools for the playerbase to create player-made content then it does cut-and-pasting kill quests using the same template 3000X over.
Maxing out in a level-based MMO is not an achievement, neither does it show that you have skill, it is simply The Grind
Sandbox gameplay the kind of enviroment that draws in the achiever-types. They gain entertainment by trying new things within the mechanics of the game.
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On the contrary.. its more like EVE haters that will flock to this thread like flies on a pile of sh!t.
There are no skills in Shadowbane. Look at EVE Online, UO, or Ryzom... those games have skills. Shadowbane is class based. You level up and you go to a trainer and get a new skill. You don't actually level up that skill.
You really haven't played many MMOs have you?
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On 1) then EVE is not a good example, I can't speak of the other game because I have not played it... however EVE does have tons of content.
2) That is just plain wrong!!! why ? you state that no levels = no pressure, it might be true but still when we train skills we do some sort of "leveling" it's always a pressure to become better or upperhand on your enemies.
You also state that it allows non-acheivers to play without all the pressure to perform and compete is also very wrong, you still have to compete!!! each skill in EVE got a level actually, so if I as a producer got the skill Production efficiency I need to first train it to lvl 1, but I can't compete with someone with lvl 5 so I need to train the skill to level 5 to compete, I also need a good blueprint to even compete more !!!
When I played WoW I only got up to lvl 18 on one of my characters, the level thing there is no competition at all, all I got to do is to kill some monsters, and make sure I don't kill monsters with less level than me... that's it.. that is all I got to do to level in WoW...
Same thing is what I have done in Kal-Online as I have tried it abit... kill monsters to rise in level so I can kill more monsters... (pretty new to that game so I have not played it as much).
Anarchy Online as I tried it a couple of times ... also have to kill monsters to gain EXP. so I can progress.
Belive me I have had a argument with a friend in EVE-Online who is very much against games like WoW and I who don't really like the game do think it rocks in it's own way... the graphic is beautiful actually I just got tired fo the constant leveling, questing and well that type of gameplay.
Our argument where that he did say that games like EVE and AO don't have grinding ... me on the other hand did say that these games very much do have grinding... almost as much as games like WoW.
How ? well in EVE-Online you got missionrunning, you got a set number of missions you can do, lets just take a number as 15 different missions, you shuffle through them constantly and do these missions every day, because you have learned how to do them (even level 4) you find them easy, you don't loose ships and avoid missions you know you can't do... that is grinding !!! not better than if I ran around in WoW and killed monsters to get EXP.
Mining is another example... or ratting for that matter... so every game does have it's share of grinding.
Well either way I belive your post was wrong and felt I had to say something, I am no EVE-fanboi ... yeah I like EVE and I play mostly only that ... (or BF2).
Still not a sandbox. Lacking the major thing in sandboxes:
Skills.
That and it maybe one of the top PVP games out, but it's still PVE based. The game is based around PVE, everything in the game is based around PVE. The game tells you what to do next. It has a plot for you to follow, there are many things that do not make it a sandbox.
That brings up another point. Are skills needed for a sandbox game? by that I mean skill based versus level. For my definition no it isn't. Levels can be just fine provided I can choose the skills that are needed.
e.g. Horizons, not really a sandbox game, but it has some good elements to it. I can choose whatever skills I want, and train them up. But it is a game based on levels, it still lets me completely customize my character.
Venge Sunsoar
yes but how do you gain lvls? By killing monsters (dunno if this is true in Ryzom, but every other lvl based game it is), therefore you cant be a (pure) crafter without getting some fighting skills and that means lvl based game cant be sandbox.
Sure you can, you just don't level the fighting classes. You can level tailor, and blacksmith, weaponsmith, cook... You do not need to level fighting classes at all. Course gathering some of the resources will get tricky because many are guarded but youcan do it.
So yes level based games can be sandbox, they just have to let you level whatever skills you want.
Venge Sunsoar
The two lousiest MMOGs on the market claim to be sandbox games...EVE Online and Seed Online. So that's two strikes against the sandbox concept right there!
Using EVE and Seed as an example: the sandbox concept does two things...
1) It allows developers to avoid having to make any content...basically they sluff this off on the mostly incompetent player base.
2) It allows non-acheivers to play without all the pressure to perform and compete...no levels = no pressure.
If you want to get the skinny on either of these games you'll have to go to other gaming websites...it's not possible to get the true story at this one.
It takes far more work to make good tools for the playerbase to create player-made content then it does cut-and-pasting kill quests using the same template 3000X over.
Maxing out in a level-based MMO is not an achievement, neither does it show that you have skill, it is simply The Grind
Sandbox gameplay the kind of enviroment that draws in the achiever-types. They gain entertainment by trying new things within the mechanics of the game.