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Veteran Rewards = Dying Game?
dink
Member Posts: 438
Have they completely given up on appealling to a broader audience and turned their focus towards milking extra subscription dollars out of the remaining core of gamers?
If they'd make it easier to level to 50 and add in some endgame content, I'd be back in this game in a heartbeat. There are literally hundreds of power set combinations to explore and in some ways every hero or villain is fundamentally different. The game has HUGE alt-itis, but most people can't stand to play more than one character from 30-50 as it is so tiresome.
Make every day a double xp weekend day and give me new epic comic-booky content at the end levels - some of it for large SGs and other bits that are just extremely story driven bits, and I'd be in love again. Add on to the SG base functionality and set up a system for loner heroes and loner villains to have their own smaller bases where they can fight over their own items of power and go on their own quests, etc.
My feeling from this is that they have shifted CoH/CoV into a legacy game and their efforts will now be spent primarily on the Marvel MMO for Vista and the 360.
Comments
I dont think the intention at cryptic was to ever appeal to a broader audience with COx.
If you made it any eaiser to lvl to 50 in this game, you could market it as a special ed game.
They are trying to add more to the superbase part of the game, but there is alot to balance...they are just getting the Catherdal of Pain working right.
Also, if they were sunsetting COx, why go on a hiring binge like a sailor on shoreleave? They are even sweeping game conventions for warm bodies.
I used to think that same way but after reading an article on PC elitism and watching couple friends play(one I even bought as a present...oops), I had realized how much I took for granted. Things I thought were the most basic tactics they could not grasp. One friend actually could not take on 3 foes until level 7 and basically stood like a log trading blows on a Controller. Luckily I was a huge comic book fan, even though I didn't get my first 50 until about 6-8 months into the game.
Nope, I disagree. If you want to make the game reach a larger audience, it still needs work.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
To equate giving veteran awards with a dying game?!
So, you feel that because they reward people who have been playing the game for an extended period of time means that the game is in it's death cycle?
I just want to get this straight because veteran rewards is not new in MMO's and surely has not blossomed in MMOs that are dying.
Games I can think of that have Veteran Rewards
I'm sure there are many more that's I'm not aware of.
Your comment is just as bad as when Serling said "You don't give freebies away for a successful product: you give them away for a product that's struggling to survive." (Course, Serling will come back stating it has nothing to do with the context and just skirt the issue)
You don't like the veteran rewards, you want to see more content and characters leveling faster. I can live with those statements. It's how you enjoy the game and how you feel the game would be better. But, to say giving away vet rewards = a dying game, that's just trolling.
Cryptic is under contract with NCSoft, they have to support CoX legally. That means updates, patches and such. Matt Miller (Positron) even layed out the next 4 issues and what to expect. Letter from Positron (Matt Miller) Wednesday, September 27, 2006 . That hardly sounds like a company has dropped CoX and now will push only for whatever Marvel has planned.
Cryptic is a gaming company. CoH was their first MMO but I doubt it will be their last. Course we all know a gaming development company can only have one game EVER! /sarcasm (To reference another game, EQ1 is still going strong and still supported with expansions and patches. How long has that cash cow been going? /rhetorical)
your arguement is so persuasive, so filled with knowledge and insight. You back up your argument very articulately, with suggestions of improvements and raising examples to glorify your position....oh wait, you didn't
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
Sanctus_Mors - If you are making new features that are designed to reward your current long-time players then you are updating your product to appeal to your EXISTING userbase. You are not making changes to make it appeal to new users, or the many disatisfied former users.
It is a way to ring a few more months out of subscribers because they want some shiny new thing - like Wings.
Stuff like I8, I9 and I10 are there to encourage new users to join / older users to resub.
Veteran rewards is only one piece of the puzzle.
While it may not be the Veteran's Reward exactly, I think it just a piece of the pie that will be Marvel Universe Online. I can't believe some of the long-time supporters on the official boards are actually questioning the health/longevity of the game so I am now worried. ED, lack of features that were asked for a long while ago(e.g. trenchcoats), reversing the retail expansion, new mantra 'give players what they want' (possilbly trying to replace the tired 'working as intended'), etc., if looked at from one perspective could be to keep Cryptic funded while working on the Marvel game(though I'm sure they got a nice wad of cash from Marvel for dev). Again, viewed from a certain perspective the length between Issues could be explained by this news.
Time will tell but people will may need to ask themselves whether they want to invest months into a game that may go nowhere.....this comment is just based on the fact that the last few updates to the game have been few and far between; also IMO the gameplay has remained static with nothing truly new(except Mayhem Missions and I don't count PvP which can be found in better form in other games). While new zones and new mobs are nice, they have added little depth to the gameplay and just add to already sufficient eye-candy.
I'm not disagreeing with this comment. Vet rewards are for people who put the time into the game and stick with it. Those appeal to new players after they have decided that the game is for them, but is not the thing that pulls new players into the game.
I am disagreeing with the comment that when a MMO starts to offer veteran rewards, it is on a downward spiral to cancelation. I've listed a few MMO's that are still going strong that also offer veteran rewards. I've also pointed out that NCSoft still has a contract with Cryptic to support the game even though Cryptic is going to work on an MMO with Marvel and Microsoft. These are the supporting arguments that show that a MMO that offers Veteran rewards is not a dying beast.
You would like to see faster advancement and additional content that a level 50 player can do...That's fine, I can understand that is something you think would improve the game and pull people back who have left. I think they have gone the correct way of making instance missions worth more xp and they have reduce debt doing those missions. That addresses your faster xp/level. As for the more content...did you review what is planned for the upcoming issues? Looks like some good, highend content there.
Myself, when issue 8 comes out, i'll probably be back. Although I'll have to juggle 2142 with CoX but that's a bridge I'll burn when I get there
your arguement is so persuasive, so filled with knowledge and insight. You back up your argument very articulately, with suggestions of improvements and raising examples to glorify your position....oh wait, you didn't
Yeah 30-50 can drag not as smooth flow as lower levels.Some one said eq was better tho a have to disagre their.I9-I11 will have alot of content that was in the expansion to help end game an alt was to develop toons.
Vetern Rewards are a nice way of reqarding their player base an keeping their player base.Every mmorpg is in compition with the other for the monthly sub.Type doesnt matter to a majority of the market as long as its fun.Adding rewards doesnt make it a legacy game at all.Smart marketing to hold onto your player base in the next comeing year.Alota nice looking mmorpgs inc.
To those that are saying do something to draw new people in,um good vs evil edition is a good start.But drastic changes in game would be SWG'n Coh an that would be bad .I think we all could agree on that.Actualy i like the way things are shapeing up.Now Marvel MMO will be difrent from CoH not a clone like DC online sounds to be.
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." Robert E. Howard, The Tower of the Elephant (1933)
Conservatism.
Just old white men trying to find ways to legalize discrimination, and make the poor poorer
Sanctus_Mors - Okay, so there is not a direct connection between veteran rewards and sunsetting a title, but it this AND their not moving towards greater accessabilty and replayability that makes me think that they may have shifted their focus to simply appealing to their most diehard fans.
Bit detour here:
Axeion - Actually, the Marvel MMO is going to follow the Marvel world history, so at it's inception, the world will have been going through the whole "Civil War" issues that the Marvel universe is currently experiencing - or, since the game probably won't be out for years - it will at least feel the effects of this.
I kind of like how Civil War is killing off a ton of B-level heroes. The Marvel cast has all these tiny players from failed series over the decades and I find it very cool that they are getting featured so well before they get killed.
Also, the whole concept of the "Civil War" has a lot of interesting policital allegory. For those who don't read comics, basically the government has passed a law demanding that heroes become registered with the government and become civil servants that work for the public good. The people want to regulate this in order to make superhumans be accountable for their actions, as well as to provide them with a wage for their efforts. Other heroes (The Secret Avengers) feel that regulation would tie heroes hands and would keep them from stopping threats that arise from the government itself.
The Secret Avengers are lead by Captain America, which is interesting because he has always upheld the core values of the United States: freedom, liberty, pursuit of happiness, etc. The leader of the heroes that support registration is Iron Man. . . those who know Iron Man know that he can be coldly pragmatic and he is very. . . um, corporate. It's sort of a battle of the ideals that we see in U.S. politics. The Secret Avengers are liberal and populist, and the heroes supporting registration are conservative and despotic.
I actually have 17 months in the game (though I don't know how long you need to have been in for wings). However, I'm not jealous of them (I'm all about super jump as I like to PvP), though I'm sure many people will be.
The amount of new people they are hiring is the amount of people they require on their staff to produce new content at a respectable pace.
Replayability, That was probably what did burn me out of MMO's. I had a slew of characters but each mission we did was relatively the identical path. Course I had the same problem with EQ2 and the identical problem with WoW and Guild Wars. You try to grab all the quests/missions for your character but in essence, your are doing the same quest/missions that your very first character did. There was hardly any branching off from the mainstream.
Now CoX made it a bit different, depending what contact you chose, you would have a different set of missions and you could not choose the other contact to do their missions. Even that is limited. Approx 3 characters you make can cover all the missions from 1 to 50.
I'm doing a beta of another MMO out there and to avoid NDA, I won't mention their name. But needless to say, even that beta, my characters are going through exactly the same quests the prior characters are going through, and it looks like these quest will be the driving factor that gets you to the next quest giver.
I guess what I'm trying to say is this. Once you've maxed out one character in an MMO, all the other characters you make, all the other people you meet, will be going through the exact same quests...it's all so linear and predictable once you do it the first time.
I don't want this A>B>C>D>E>F>nauseum
I want something that is a bit unpredictable. A chance to do a mission/quest that pops up unexpected that everyone in my group would say, "Cool, I've heard about that mission/quest but I've not seen it"
I guess I'd equate this approach to getting uncommon and rare loot. But instead it's uncommon and rare quests.
Alas I have gone way off topic. Pardon the my ramblings of why MMO's that are current and those currently in development have burned me out of the genre. I'll be back with issue 8 of CoX, I'll have fun with my friends and my guild. I hope it's for awhile, when I feel the burn, I'll step back and wait again.
Back on topic, new players will come because the type of game CoX is, they don't know what to expect unless they experience it. One appeal to keep those new players is the vet rewards. I see that in any MMO the vet rewards is both for the fan and the thing that also keeps new players.
your arguement is so persuasive, so filled with knowledge and insight. You back up your argument very articulately, with suggestions of improvements and raising examples to glorify your position....oh wait, you didn't
Sanctus_Mors - I disagree that new players will come - at least that they will stay.
Since ED, they've made it harder to level past 30 and they've made the rewards for leveling (enhancements) worth less. This has lead to a game that just doesn't reward players for their efforts frequently, and thus missions that were exciting and fun at earlier levels simply become mundane and more-of-the same post-30.
The best and easiest improvement they could make to CoX is to halve the xp/level needed after level 30. Make it so that I can play a bunch of alts and continously gain different powers and thus new ways to play over and over (there are a TON of powersets in this game) and I'd be back and having fun constantly instead of feeling like it is a terrible grind.
I lead a huge SG in CoH at it's inception. We had 3 SGs filled only with mains and two full SGs for alts (and other alt SGs as well, but not full). We probably only kept about 20% of the members that joined - not because they didn't fit in with the SG, but because they left the game when they got to level 27-35 with the complaint that the game is a grind.
And they're right. I don't think the developers play their game without cheating up to and beyond level 30. If they did, they might be blaming the feeling of grind on the fact that they are constantly testing the game and too close to it. . . but it's boring for us too.
Anyway, I'm off topic too. I guess veteran rewards aren't an indication that they are sunsetting the title, but the fact that they have made no response to all of the player complaints - especially from the huge number of users who left after ED - gives me the impression that they have become insular.
However, in CoX, you are STRONGER as you level up, while in all the games you mentions (maybe not AO, don't know it), your toon become weaker. At level 75 in EQ, it is impossible to solo a red, while at level 4 it was possible, the more you level, the weaker you become when compare to the mobs of your level, same apply to other games you mentions.
In CoX, at level 1 you might kill 2 minions, at level 50 you might kill 1 boss, 2 lieutnant and 5 minions. You see an IMPROVEMENT, not a regression. You feel more heroix (less than pre-nerfs).
I see many new players, players who can't even find the right chat tools. It is great fun to help them out find the basics. So anyone saying no new players will come, I think you don't group enough in the low levels.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
There's at least 3 distinct subjects in this thread now.
The Marvel collaboration is the most interesting topic to me.
So far as I understand it, Positron and below is 100% CoH going forward. Anyone they've already stolen and new hires are working on Marvel. Statesman is overseeing both. (Not exactly a blessing IMHO, but I digress.) I really don't think that project will take much development from CoH. Nothing that wouldn't have been ramped down anyway - remember how many people left after CoV's release. I suspect the main boost there is stealing the engine and a lot of the mechanics. Which doesn't hurt CoX directly, though it calls into question how different they are.
Nor do I tie that in to the Box release changing to free expansions. When they first announced the box, I was thinking over what Positron said they wanted to do and it seemed to me to be risking a real division between people who bought the expansion and those who didn't. And the last thing a team-dependant game like CoH needs is to fragment the user base into subsets that can't team together. To clarify, I'm not saying that purchased expansions can't work - just that what he was hinting at with reformed zones and changing storylines would really separate the haves from the have-nots. So I think they figured out that implementing it wouldn't work as well as they'd hoped.
Additionally, churning out a box release plus keeping an acceptable pace with Issues would mean ramping up the team again. And while the revenue from box purchases would help, it seems the evidence now shows it doesn't increase the player base much more than releasing a new free expansion would. So I think tossing the sold expansion idea makes financial and technical design sence completely separate from new Marvel projects.
What I do wonder though is, long-run, how different the two will be. If it's very similar to the same game, but with different graphics and names, it's just going to cannibalize CoX and hurt both. On the other hand, even if Cryptic incorporates everything learned from the CoH experience, how different would it really be? There have always been pretty logical arguments against weapons and armor, and mining, harvesting, crafting and item sales - how these aren't things you picture Heroes doing. I think that's still true. If those decisions get reversed, it will be a different game but not feel all that heroic. If they're maintained I fear it will all be too similar.
One thing I'm confident they've learned though from the public reactions: the Marvel MMO will definitely be nerfed before release. Hell, seeing people still grumbling about I5 and ED a year later, if I were a designer I'd start with minor power differentiation too. You can always buff later and everyone will love you, but nerfing is asking for bad PR. So I figure if the design takes this idea to a logical step, there's not going to be much differences in the ATs, let alone the powers.
Somehow that doesn't add up to me being too optimistic about any of it. :-/
Currently playing:
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Well, the fact that it will also be released on the 360 alone means that the game will be at least somewhat different.
i don't think vet rewards is a bad sign. but the fact that issue 6/cov came out last halloween - oct 31, 2005, and there's been ONE new issue since that time (almost a full year later), IS a bad sign.
great if they FINALLY get issue 8 out. that's 2 issues in a year's time. issue 8 concentrating solely on ONE side of the game - heroes.
those are bad signs for the game. especially when everyone else churns out their goodies on time.
anyone see a listing of powersets for issue 8 yet? please don't tell me that after half a year, they're not adding ANY?
edited to add:
"
I’d like to start out by mentioning Issue 8: To Protect and Serve.
This is a hero-centric Issue that finally levels the playing field
between Heroes and Villains. We have a ton of stuff being added with
this issue that will please a variety of players. It begins the
multi-year storyline that continues next year with Issue 9 (title to be
announced). I9 brings with it a huge new gameplay system: Inventions.
Players will be able to craft Enhancements and Costume pieces for their
characters using recipes, and salvage that they find while adventuring.
Issue 9 will also have Statesman’s Task Force, the Hero equivalent
to the Recluse Strike Force. Both of these mission chains are designed
for eight max-level characters and have some of the best rewards in the
game.
Issue 10 is a ways out, but it will bring us an update to an old
familiar villain group. This group will have their power center altered
and bring about massive changes to the game as a whole. Heroes and
Villains will find themselves banding together against a common threat.
We will begin to reveal our plans for Issues 11 and beyond over the
"next year or so. We feel confident that you will be as excited about
our plans as we are!
um, that's not saying much. issue 9 more hero only stuff? issue 10, some random group (council?) will get a make-over?
PB is great. mayhem/safeguard are a good START. now where's the rest of the variety in missions? keep on coming up with new ways for missions to happen. even with these changes, i'm still going to be in that same bloody warehouse 500+ times by level 20.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?