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Manifesto of a MMORPG gamer
Lord_Ara
Member Posts: 73
I am a MMORPG gamer and this is my manifesto,
(a little dramatic I know)
My name is David Greene and I have been known by many names in many games, I most commonly am known as Ara Brightheart, and at one time long ago I was Aragorn in UO.I work in sales in Vermont and have been in the IT field for 14 years as both a tech and a salesperson. I have 3 children (and a 4th on the way), a loving wife, and a love of MMOGs. I want to write this not so much to convince anyone of anything, or change anyones opinions, but instead to share what this gamer thinks about the companies and games that we gamers deal with on a daily basis. I understand, and I want all the readers to understand, that these are my opinions. I would also like to state I am done, finished, and kaput with paying for games I am not happy with so this will be my last month of paid play till I find exactly what I am looking for. I will beta test, and do free trials before I ever pay for another box or monthly service fee.
I feel I should start with one of the hardest topics and one of the most argued over, I would like to start with PvP. I not only feel that PvP is an important part of RPGs but it is essential. I can remember playing AD&D as the DM and letting my players PvP if they so wished, it allowed them to not only police their environment but to also police each other. I had many times players break into arguments over loot and I had to tell them to work it out if that meant grabbing their swords or spell book then so be in. PvP gave them the ability to establish a pecking order and leadership. UO took to this idea in the early days quickly, as any true social game, players need to be able to police their own societies, the ability to throw the bad guy out or for the highwayman to make his living out of the pockets of the way traveler. Picture this in Horizons or many other games, I want to play a highway bandit and lay in wait for you beside the road. I jump out and demand your gold, well in a non-PvP world you would laugh till sundown tell me I am crazy and walk away. However if this happened in a PvP world I would have the chance of forcing you to give it to me by pulling my sword, or you would have the chance to slay me and bring me to justice. I feel the second scenario is the more exciting of the two. I Understand all those people that say, " I don't want to loose my rare sword of Bla" but if it cannot be replaced don't carry it. I know it is not your fault, it is the supporting companies fault for having items in game that are so rare that you just cant use them. I think that it adds a true emotion to the game, or two I should say... fear and anger. I have been there in the early days of UO, I had the new sword and the new armor and then some PK came and took it with force, but not with out a fight or a good chase, but many times in the end He would get it. I was angry and shaking, I stormed around the house, and I vowed revenge, and I felt things. I feel that this is something we all should have as crazy as it sounds. I can remember someone killing my daughters character and tracking them down and killing them time after time always reminding them of why. I remember guild wars and loot thieves taking from both sides. PvP gives players a real chance to be good or evil and the choice is theirs not some mass media company. PvP has drawbacks, but in the end what it adds is worth a lot more than the few items you loose. I feel UO would be #1 if they never had added Trammel.
Ok now that about half of you have stopped reading lets hit on something new, The worlds them selves. The first thing I notice when starting a new game for the first time is the world, I look about and I want to say wow, but sadly sometimes I cant. The world has as much a part in the emersion as the things and creatures in it, a beautiful world can just suck you into the game. Shortly after I started to get upset with the changes in UO I tried EQ and I can remember trying to find high points to see the sunset, no exp, not loot, no monsters, just a sunset. This was something new to me as I had not had this in UO and I loved it, it started me exploring and finding the next beautiful monument to the world I was playing in. After EQ I found DAoC and low and behold rounded hills and green fields with grass, bright sunsets with colors wonderful to behold. Horizons was yet another step and yet more beautiful. I am friends with many female players and one thing I hear a lot is that there are far to few gathering places and romantic places. I remember in UO little things like a waterfall with hidden cave near it, an alter over looking another water fall in a beautiful woods, and a heart shaped field. I attended several outdoor weddings in UO, and to speak of it few other weddings at all anywhere beyond UO, I think the reason social interactions happen is because designers had taken the time to build areas for these type of things to happen kind of like "build it and they will come". Imagine if Horizons had PvP, wow the arena outside Tazoon would be packed every night. Not to break NDA but I am beta testing a game that has added sledding and the devs built us a ski resort complete with big air jump and the server records out stats. I am not asking for gold in every pocket and food for the masses just a place to have a picnic lunch. While I am talking about special places, one of the most special is one to call your own. I feel that housing is not only important for storage, but it is also a place that enhances Role-play and gives you the ability to express your personality. If you are a necromancer make a dark evil house with blood and guts to spare, if you are a paladin make a house that is a temple to your beliefs, but what ever you do make it yours. I feel that horizons has the best system, but UO implemented it best. The thing I feel Horizons did wrong is they made it to hard to get building materials to your building site. I do feel that everything else do to with housing its self has been done well and for a while it has been one of the two reasons I have stayed. Horizons did not however release anything on home decor and this is where UO leads the pack. There are so many things you can do with your UO home that it is unreal. One thing I feel UO did wrong in housing is they gave no control so after a short time there where no open spaces left everything was covered with houses. Any game that wants to have any kind of Role-playing needs housing to do it. Now that I am back from a housing rant lets get back to talking about the world. I fell off a cliff the other night playing horizons and you know what happened, .....Nothing. A beautiful world is a wonderful thing, but a realistic beautiful world is a even better thing. I know falling damage can suck and some games have done it wrong, but come on falling off a 100' cliff should kill me; A real world engine and physics will lead to a better level of absorption by the players, if I walk in lava burn me, if I fall bruise me, and if I am to cold freeze me. This leads me to my last point on virtual worlds, weather. If it snows make it build up, it if rains give me puddles. I would love to see a dynamic weather system where if it were cold, and damp it would snow or if it were warm and wet fog would form. I know this is cycles on the server but maybe even give me seasons. All these can be done I have seen them in a beta but I cannot say which one without breaking NDA.
The world is not enough, it is important but emersion requires more. Social games that have endured have also had a lot to offer in the way of life style items for players, like food and clothing. AO has risen to be a very popular game and is gaining momentum every day. One awesome thing about AO is the clothing there must be 1500 different outfits or better and they can be mixed and matched to create unique looks. UO even had a good selection of social clothing that would let players create a different feel for different events as simply as changing their clothes. When I was playing EQ I remember how lame it felt that my cloak of the jagged pine had no graphic, I always wished it would show as I enjoyed the quest to get it. The MMOG designers will tell you that it is a lag causing type of graphic, and needs to be turned off for system performance, but at least we should have the option. DAoC did capes and shrouds well, they even had guild crests on them, so we all know that too can be done. I think we should have the full gambit of clothing everything from lingerie to hard weather cloaks. I know it is a lot of items but again we know it can be done, AO is doing it and doing it well. Food would be another item, I am not saying we should suffer damage from not eating, but hey a guild dinner party could be fun. I can remember great banquets in UO with this awesome spread of food before us. By giving food a graphic we could set dinner tables and such. With food comes cooks of course and again UO had some of these also. Horizons has cooks but there is no graphic for food so a big guild dinner or a picnic are out of the question. Taverns and bars lead us back to the build it and they will come idea and I dont want to beat a dead horse. Some of my greatest hunts in AO have ended with me and some friends back at Reets Retreat with food, drink, and ladies. I dont know what was more fun the hunt or the party after.
I would like to touch on another sore subject while talking about social items. Quests, I think one thing that got old quick in so many games was the static quests. Talk to so and so and then fedex this to so and so .ok we lost interest after the 5th quest like this. I really want to see quest like the old seer program in UO put on. I am sick to death of these companies only doing live events for the upper level of players. New player need the same kind of events to hold their interest as the upper level players do. Please no more invasions of level 110 monsters that my 3 month old 25 level character cant even hit. The seer program was awesome; there were live events for every level of player. I am not asking for quests everywhere all the time, but make them live and include young and old. Horizons promised so much but delivered so little. I was lead to believe that the undead would be smart and advance and players could drive them back and then players could free lost areas. Take Feladan for example the lost Elfish city. Many of us banded together, built the machines, and defeated the monsters that guarded the machines. The moment of truth came the last great specter fell and what happened? .. Nothing. As a mater of fact almost a week later all that has happened is the spawn in the blight is dead. The reason is, it just another static quest and there is nothing live about it. I once talked to a lich, I once talked to an ancient dragon, and I once talked to a King .all we want is to do that again in some land that is live not static.
LOOT, what to do, what not to do, what we wish they would do, is all screamed about everyday on every MMORPG board. Here are my thoughts; I believe that loot should be items drops and crafting drops combined. One of the big problems that happens is Ubber loot. No single monster should drop anything that becomes worth 500 dollars on ebay. One reason so many people are against PvP is because they are in fear of loosing their Items; ones that they feel cannot be replaced. My thought to fix this would be have drops, even magic item drops, but have the really powerful stuff be crafted that way the pure hunter can get a good item but to get a great item he would have to find a master crafter. Hey in UO I lost Vanquishing swords in PvP. My feeling was if they could take me down they should get a real reward. I liked what UO did with item improvement, it let the warriors find say a vanquishing sword, and then have a blacksmith modify it to make it even better. All in all adventurers need incentive, and so do crafters. The industry needs to find a happy medium.
While I have brought up the subject of Ebay lets dwell into it a bit. I have seen in-game items go for as much as $2000.00 dollars on ebay at times in the past. You might ask why I feel this is a bad thing, well here is the answer just because you can not afford a castle spot with real life money does not mean you should not be able to earn one in game. I have noticed that what few spots in UO were big enough for a castle has a castle on it. This in and of its self is fine but now those few spots are traded around on ebay. Even if I had the gold to buy one by hard work in game someone will have just bought it on ebay. I am just using UO as an example, very early in Horizons someone found a duping bug and used it to create a large amount of silver and sold it on ebay although the person was caught, it still hurt the economy of the game badly. I am not saying I am with out blame I too have bought stuff off ebay for in game use, by doing this I added to the problem. I feel there are two ways to stop this, one would be we the players stop buying it, and the other would be for gaming companies to ban players for doing it. I feel that if gaming companies put a stop to this by making it a bannable offence, then in game economies would stand a better chance of survival. Ebay selling leads to mass farming and macroing. This in turn leads to legit players getting frustrated and quitting.
Crafting is one thing that I have found will never make a game but it can doom a game. It has been a focal point of some games in the recent past, and I feel that it still has not been handled right. Crafters need to be made to feel that their items are the best, and also unique to them. I like what the description on the horizon faq said up till about a month ago, where they claimed items could be not only customized for power and stats but also in looks. The system horizons was going to have would have let nearly every crafter create items with a look all to them selves, but alas the faq changed and so did Horizons. I would like to leave it at this if we could have games that brought to reality what horizons once tried to do with crafting then everyone would be happy.
Chat is another thing I want to touch base on. this going to be an unpopular post but here it goes, I feel that when a game goes live that there should be no broad area chat, with that said let me now add supporting information. I have been playing MMORPGs for 9 years now, I started in UO and was a player in UO for 6 of that .from the days of Beta. I often wonder what kept me in a game with such week graphics, and such a large number of exploiters, and it comes down to community. I feel that broad area chat ruins community as it lessens the need to gather together in one place. I can remember massive guild meetings and many parties, in games I have played since most guild business is handled in a guild chat room not in a guild house. I also think that you would be more inclined to Role-play in a local area chat environment as players would be face to face and have a better sense of emersion.
I would demand of MMORPG developers to stop lying to us, stop telling us what we want to hear till we buy your box. I would rather hear a company be honest about what they offer, than to be told what I want to hear. I would demand that MMORPG companies start respecting the wishes of their players and talking to us, we can and will be loyal if you do. I give a call to MMORPG players everywhere stop paying for any gaming experience you are not totally happy with, if enough of us do this, these big media companies will have to improve their products to make them what we want. I am not asking for miracles, just for honesty. Give us what you promise us. I would like to give warning to these weak of imagination gaming companies, the next round of MMORPGs are coming and they will take the world by storm. I am beta testing 3 that will push the level so high you will not catch up.
I would like to note what games I have played as I have not played them all. I have played UO ( all expansions), EQ( all expansions), AC2, AO( all expansions), DAoC, Neocron, Fallen Age, Horizons, Knight Online, Never Winter Nights, and I am currently Beta testing three others that due to NDA I will not mention.
There are some games that I feel are on the right track, I dont want everyone to feel that there are not. I like everything about AO but I am a sword and sorcery kind of guy, and AO is sci-fi, and this is only one of a handful that are working on being what I and many others want. I would like to thank everyone who has given me the time out of there lives to read this, again this is only my opinions and you may do with them what you will.
...in the end there was no Good and Evil only living and dead...
...in the end there was no Good and Evil only living and dead...
Comments
...in the end there was no Good and Evil only living and dead...
...in the end there was no Good and Evil only living and dead...
This isnt just your everyday darkness, this is .......... ADVANCED DARKNESS
This isnt just your everyday darkness, this is .......... ADVANCED DARKNESS
wow, that was a long read o.o
I agree most of these companies need to shape up and hopefully one of these games coming out with have what we gamers want
I agree with everything you said. If you find a game you really like please, please tell me as your looking exactly for the same thing as me.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
I know one of the games your beta testing from the hints (been following it for a while) and you've really wetted my appetite.
As for paying for games I'm not happy with, thats exactly why I'm a rabid MMORGP fan that is not currently playing any online game. I'm bored of the 1st generation of MMORGP's and still don't believe we have had anywhere near enough innovation (other than graphics) for a current game to claim to be 2nd generation.
Bring on the new wave, hopefully they will flush out the crap and set a new standard for quality. There are a lot of dissatisfied gamers out there that will flock to a new game if meets this challenge.
Magpie.
There are only 10 types of programmers. Those that understand binary and those that don't.
...in the end there was no Good and Evil only living and dead...
...in the end there was no Good and Evil only living and dead...
Umm wow! I was reluctant to read all that at first.. I made it thru. Most of your points are valid and true.
I do enjoy the crafting aspects of an mmo but you are right in saying we need lots of items. I love decorating my house in an mmo or hunting for a treasure drop or a component for an item (not necessarily made by a crafter, could be made thru an npc ala AC) When I played AC and EQ I had 2 accounts full of 'stuff' I collected. It's the prizes that I was proud of and loved to show off.
In my opinion you will never stop the selling of virtual items from within games. Even tho it is against most Terms it cant be policed entirely. Sure the companies can communicate with other companies like Ebay and tell them they dont want their stuff sold on their site, but then it leads to stuff like player auctions. Eventually it becomes more of a hassle to police it than it is ultimately worth.
----------------------------
Omol da'Ox
The Blooded
----------------------------
Omol da'Ox
Wow!! Good on you mate!!! I think that although you may not have known it at the time, you have summed up the feelings of many of us players, including me.
I have often considered in the past that the best game would one day be developed by someone from within our ranks. Someone who had played and does play MMORPGS instead of someone who has been trained in code or has a marketing degree. I think the best MMORPG will be developed eventually by people like us who know what can be done, supported by the techies and the sales people. Maybe one day the gamers will determine how a game will look and play not a marketing expert.
I would like to applaude you for your effort and time and even though I don't agree with everythign you said, pvp expessaly, (of course who wouldn't expect that from me), I do think you're manphesto proves that players like you can be passonate about their games. If more poeple were like you gaming companies wouldn't be treating us like their explative deleated and players would finaly be getting the features and support they deserve.
Remember Gaming companies: We made you, and we can break you!
Vice Man
MrVice,
Thank you for your kind word, and I agree "we made them, we can break them". I feel that they need to hear us, we pay the salries. The lieing to us is the hardest thing for me to deal with. I was once told by 2 people at A-E that they would be adding environmentel damage and now I doubt it will ever come.
...in the end there was no Good and Evil only living and dead...
...in the end there was no Good and Evil only living and dead...
We share nothing in common my friend.
I wish you the best luck and I sincerly wish we never pick the same MMORPG.
I love short term game PvP that are not based on RL reflex, but on TURNS.
Your PvP stuff would be true only if everyone have only 1 life and no more for each character, you died, you start at 0, then it will be true. Otherwise peoples will start bad behaviors again and again. Would I play a PvP game where I need to work for months to be able to face a Dragon if anyday can be the last, for good? No! You have to make a choice there, PvP mean you can reach level 100 in 2 days max! No long term farming. I will Gladly play Chess or Axis & Allies and give all I can, do even try to make me play PvP on a MMORPG, it will end in me leaving it with pure disgust!
PvP and Farming dont goes in the same game in my opinion, and a system with levels have always been associated with farming so far.
Did I prefer a farming game or a PvP game? That question is irrelevant, I like both, but I see no interest in REAL time PvP to start with(personnal choice) and a pure raw hatred with long term PvP stuff, it need to be short term, fast paced, thrilling, many many many games. Not 1 crushing setting where someone win at start and then is winner for years!
Althought I respect your opinion, we have nothing, absolutely nothing, in common. As a GM I allow PvP between a few players, yet, if I see 1 player was not wanting to fight, I will put some options so he enjoy the game and get away, without PvP most likely(I have wipe full group of players that slay the wrong player after they see they where the choosen of this or that, with no bad feeling and every player understand and come to respect this, if the players kill the annoying player(they can neutralize him althought, but after they either need the player to accept that or start another character, which is pretty harsh anyway, this is a game, RPG have nothing to do with PvP, absolutely nothing, it is a side story, a mistake) without regards of the fact he have the personnal support of this Lord/Lady, so be it, but if they complain when a level to much assassin slay them while they sleep, LOL). Your PvP setting is pretty much like a Caveman society, where a few dictator rule the others, as a specie we evolve and saddly in a MMORPG we dont interest all the folks to make it similar, so the game must not be 100% pure PvP!
I rather get rid of the wrong element in my game, then get rid of the clueless scared player that dont want PvP and just want to stay with the group and make some fun without been a slave! As a result, it turn that I have many many many games with tons of folks, and the folks I ban from my games could staff 1 game but they quit after self bashing to much between themselves, as they where all wolves and they didnt accept to be followers, so they turn to fast paced PvP (real time or not, and yes, they especially enjoy facing me in PvP stuff games, even if they have nothing to do with RPG, when I field troops or something, I see a new flame in their eyes and they really enjoy it, althought in my games, they will never have a place unless they change, which I dont care to try about changing peoples, they are what they are, and RPG is not for them).
I recall when I play old SRE, I was bumping around been the perfect paladin empire! I was starting edicting my laws upon everyone...I should always have been crushed. But the fact I was always lethal and that many many many players strive for a system that work with rules, which i provide, grant me tons of support and I end up master of the Galaxy with laws and all, it was a real pain in the *** if you ask me, but face it, a PvP to be good need enforcers with laws and all, and you cannot expect players to take such a burden over a long term GAME, they are not working, you would need the staff and the devs to plays Paladins with very STRONG (but not impossible to defeat, yet, they have a hellish headstart) edges to enforce and uphold the laws, after a month or 2, they would be exhausted and tired of it, but in such a setting, they should never be exhausted. Players could or not be welcome to join those ranks, but it need a lot more works from the devs if they let players join their ranks, because they need to get ready to deal with fallen paladins!
- "Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Anofalye,
I am not sure that you have read what I wrote, or maybe only read one part. Yes I do believe that PvP is important but that is just me. I feel that PvP adds to the ability of people to play out the roles of good and evil, and so you know I have never been a random PvPer I have always role-played it out. I was the guy hunting down the random PKers for years in UO, and one of my best friends in IRL was one of those PKers, it was just a way to play good vs evil for us. I find it odd that anti-PvP people only seem to read that one part and not anything else I have said. I am deeply sorry as it seems I have offended you with my post as this was not my intent. I stated that this is only an opinion and to be quite frank I also said it would be unpopular. The biggest mistake I did was putting PvP in the begining as many read till there and stop, as it seems you did. Again I am sorry for being disruptive to you, and I am also sorry to have caused you to become angered with me.
Ara Brightheart
...in the end there was no Good and Evil only living and dead...
...in the end there was no Good and Evil only living and dead...
*smile*
No offense taken. Not angry either. Not disrupted even. I am a very inquisitive player and this is more my style then anything. But, if they cant put a good PvP system for the very carebearish players to be able to be relatively safe and enjoy the game(while doing stuff they care), they need to remove it althogether. The lesser evil win! Uncontrolled PvP is worser then the lack of it, the lack of PvP I can live without it NP! Bad PvP = me leaving! I dont need to be personnally PK more then once to leave a game!
This is why I believe the PvP zones must be differents and they must bring PvP uberness(if even that), nothing else. If you make it that someone need to go there for others zones uberness, you enforce it and make a mistake.
- "Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
...in the end there was no Good and Evil only living and dead...
...in the end there was no Good and Evil only living and dead...
BTW.... if anyone wants it my email is davetech@vermontel.net or ara@guardianknights.com
and those of you that have asked Guardian Knights is my guild that started in UO as Companions of the Avatar, the website is down of update I hope to have it back online this month.
Thanks
David Greene
Ara Brightheart
...in the end there was no Good and Evil only living and dead...
...in the end there was no Good and Evil only living and dead...
Well, first my vision was focused on the PvP, so I read again because when I was reading the first time, I was PvP thinking no matter what.
Second, my basic language is french, so there might be stuff I didnt understand, yet, beside you ideas on Roleplaying and Ebaying, I agree. Roleplaying without direct eye contact is a waste of time in my mind, you can try to put it out, but someone that focus to much to the detriment of others aspects is doing a mistake. It is like a guy that say, I love sports, I watch every baseball games but he actually never play baseball, now in the case of someone old or handicaped I understand, but for others, I dont think they are really sports lovers, they are more social sportfolks then actual sports lovers(I listen to sports from time to time myself, and I never do any, but I use to watch hockey(a lot) and play hockey(a little, without skating usually)).
On the Ebaying stuff, well you are basically *right*, but I dont mind it much. I never sell anything and I have millions of PP in EQ at early PoP, I just keep declining a few offers for RL cash because I feel it was wrong. Yet, I rather have the devs work on game stuff then on legal Ebaying stuff. I will play a game where folks buy stuff even if it remove a little from the game, but a purely boring game that happen to rule and dont allow ebay is still a boring game...I will enjoy much more that they work hard on what I care, the game, then on some stuff outside of the game. Anyway, if someone buy something outside of the game, I feel they are so silly it is fun, I just feal a LOT greater then they will ever be when I achieve it myself! Althought, I will 100% support that all the most uber stuff is NO DROP, it limit such stuff easily, in game and outgame. But, it is a growing problem and a growing problem need to be taken into account, the NO DROP answer was fine, but I guess they need to work a little more on this issue, it dont need to solves everything and I dont want them to work on this if it mean they work less on what motivate me, so let say, they can figure that out instead of figuring a PvP system! *tease*
LOOT...well, I am not a fan of the loot myself, but, I will admit, I hate it even more when I have nothing to do with my character, I like to try to reach the top, actually reaching it is fun but if it is not temporary, I have no interest in playing more. So adding new tops and high end stuff is something they must do, at all the time, but they dont need to get themselves overworked here, it is very easy to make a clone zone where all mobs have twice the levels(or 50% more or whatever) and all items have a new term in front of them (instead of Fine steel you read: Primal Fine steel or Exquisite Fine Steel) and have everything increase automatically. Some will say it lack originality, but those are not designs for the majority of players, they are designs for the hardcores that want more and more and more, and eventually, you have to make a call where you invest time, and investing to much time on those hardcores is not a successfull solution, they deserve new stuff like every players, they dont deserve all new stuff. So even if we dont share the same vision 100%, we have some common grounds. Those ubers zones dont replace new content and new expension, they are only to appease the thirst in the most hardcores and a side effect of your success. You need to make sure nobody need to do those hardcores zones to do new stuff. For exemple, in hardcore crushbone you earn stuff that allow you to do hardcores Unrest and so on till the most dangerous place, then hardcore crushbone2 (which need to be challenging) and all the way to the top again as often as the players care to do it. It is 1 program, it is like programming a system once that give unlimited hardcoreness for folks that want to do more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more. To reach hardcore newzonefromexpension, you need to do all others hardcores zone first. Many system can be worked out. The rewards from those hardcores zones need to be effective in those zones only, and barely giving a very trivial edge in non-hardcores zone(yet, the very trivial edge need to be there, so even if the hardcore dont do it for that, that help him feel more uber and happier without removing anything from the casuals that have a life). Or something, the limits are our imagination.
The form dont matter to me, LOOT or XP or whatever, as long as it work!
Beside that, I agree with the rest or didnt understand because of my poor frenglish!
- "Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
...in the end there was no Good and Evil only living and dead...
...in the end there was no Good and Evil only living and dead...
I kind of touched on this in another topic. There's a problem with designing a game to please everyone. It can't happen. In the end, the game compromises gameplay that leaves all the people they are trying to please wanting more. Compromise is not always a good thing. Developers need to realize they don't need to please everyone and should polish their core gameplay.
I personally want to create a MMORPG based around player interactions. I would call it PvP, but PvP brings up different images in people's heads, good and bad. I don't have time at the moment to write up the premise of my idea here. Besides, I'm trying to finish off my BS in Comp. Sci. and then would need to get in the game industry and then work up to a lead role that I could be taken seriously about creating the game in the first place.
BTW, I loved UO for the same reason you did (my name was Forest and I played on Drachenfells). I left after the Trammel/Felluca addition.
Let me tell you a story about my UO days. There's this graveyard that spawns a lot of undead. In one of the buildings in the graveyard, it spawns liches. Many people used to go to this site and fight liches for some decent loot. Every now and then, the liche room can get a little too powerful. Once, my health was getting low and I decided I wanted out of the building. Guess what? There was a griefer, not a PK'r, that was blocking the door. A liche killed me. The griefer looted me quickly and ran off. This was his tactic. He didn't get penalized for killing me (because technically he didn't) or for looting me. It didn't take me too long to get rezzed and I came back and killed him. And sure enough, he had all my stuff. He went to go get rezzed, came back and started cussing me out. I killed him again. I was the one penalized in game, but it felt so good to do what I did. I wasn't a PKer, but I wanted to reserve the right to kill someone else for any reason I felt was justifiable to me.
I don't want to ask you to duel if you did something dirty to me, such as block me, loot me, take my kill, or any number of other things. There are games that try to put in rules to stop this, but there's always people that try to find their way around those rules to cause grief among other players. UO did implement a way that you couldn't be blocked by another player.
I personally don't like any PvP switches at all. There was one game I was looking forward to because they said PvP would be an integral part of their game. This game was Neocron. As soon as beta2 came out, they introduced the Law Enforcement chip. PvP was no more an integral part of the game. It pissed me off. It was the last thing I wanted in a game. I continued beta testing it for awhile and got bored and quit because it was the same gameplay as almost every other MMORPG just with different content. (my nick in Neocron was MinisterFish)
Your argument does not stand up in relation to players looting you. In EQ, where the duel option is in operation there is no looting another players corpse. This eliminates the circumstance you outlined here. As for someone blocking you .... hardly an offence worthy of a death sentence. As to ppl ksing, well there are other more intelligent ways than killing them to deal with that.
Your comment "...I wanted to reserve the right to kill someone else for any reason I felt was justifiable to me.' really is a concern. If everyone could go around killing people for reasons that they could 'justify' to themselves, there would be lots of corpses around. Seems to me most, not all, but most pkers I have run across have an obsession with killing defenseless noobs that don't have a chance to defend themselves. I must admit I always did enjoy helping the underdog even the odds. Some people just didn't like a taste of their own medicine.
First, my argument wasn't about looting, it was about not settling for a duel system when I want true PvP. I believe people should be able to loot their opponents in PvP. It's the reward of winning the battle. If you beat an AI opponent, you can loot it. So, why shouldn't you be able to loot a real person? As you have stated, EQ doesn't have that and neither do any of the other games proposing a duel system (it's because they are all EQ clones). This is why I don't play EQ and another reason I don't want a duel system.
Second, as you have seen from my story, UO allowed people at one time the right to kill someone else for any reason that they wanted to. Were there lot's of corpses around? No. So, your statement is false. People were allowed to police themseleves. This is the freedom that PvP'ers want. The problem with UO was that they only heard the complaints of carebears because the PvP'ers were already satisfied with the system as it was, and therefore weren't being vocal to be heard in the first place.
It's kind of weird that I have been arguing in other posts to get people like Kriminal and Feedtherich to put their feet into a PvEer's shoes and to understand how they see things and here I am trying to get a PvEer to understand how a true PvPer feels.
A duel system may be player vs player, but it's seperate from the core gameplay. And as you mentioned, there are no penalties or rewards involved by partaking in it. It's not true PvP in my book.