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Why no comments on raids?
Pantastic
Member Posts: 1,204
Have Mythic made any comments on raiding in WAR? I haven't seen anything specifically on the topic, and I have a sinking suspicion this means they're just not mentioning them for now, like some other games have done. The hype so far seems good, but we are talking about a company that decided that an RvR game would be enhanced by requiring raiding to stay competitive on the battlefield. I haven't seen anything from Mythic on PVE raiding, I'm hoping I've missed them saying that it either won't be in the game or won't be needed but I'm fearing it will turn out that while most of the game will be PVP, you'll be at a serious disadvantage without PVE raids.
Comments
My thic have also created the classic servers and openly admitted ToA wasn't a great move on their part. Although 18 months after ToA was released and 90% of those still playing had their MA's and some decent relic type gear for their builds ie the battlefield was reasonably balanced ToA and what it brought along ceased to matter so much.
They have also made levelling easier, given the ability to dump RP's for those who wish to simply play at any given BG level, were the first people to introduce a system where crafters were actually of use and even desired and gave us a nice solid reason to PvP and also places we could simply get away from it and do whatever.
Mythic may have screwed up with ToA in a big way but imho buffbots were a bigger issue then anything else in DAoC. And thank god the buffing system in WAR doesn't look anything like DAoC did.
Essentially your greatest fear happened already in DAoC. Mythic saw it was a huge mistake and it cost them revenue. They then addressed the issue after the horse had bolted. Not something many MMO companies even bother doing. imho your fears are unfounded. Mythic appear to be a company who make mistakes, say they made mistakes and then fix them and I'm yet to see them repeat them. Hell the new xpacs allow you to even level really quickly to hit 50 if that's where you want to get to.
I can see why Mythic would have raiding. Their respec system worked well enough and they saw it was something players wanted to be able to do. At the very least that is something that people will want to be able to do and gives a focus for raiding. Major craft recipes etc would be another reason. Then again why second guess em. I'm going to play WAR anyway. Warhammer ip is simply too much fun not to want to.
From what i gather there will be raids but not your 40+ WOW all wipe lets try again raids,meaning that a group of 8 could can take down high end raid bosses.
This game is 80%- 20% PVE(nearly everything you do in PVE effects PVP) at the start,then it switches to 80%PVP-RVR-20% PVE.I would worry more about defending my realm and gaining ground never letting up until i crush there capitol city with my realm buddys.
http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=12
If they are going to have raids and have that as the way to get the ultimate gear, then they need to have a strong guild system. I've seen so many guilds collapse on other MMORPGS before getting anything accomplished. It's hard to separate the crap guilds from the good ones so you don't waste time, and the quality guilds can often be elitist snobs, or won't take certain classes because "we have too many already" or they only invite their friends who were in their guild on another game.
So it creates two levels of the player base, the top level of elite guilds who have the top notch raid gear, giving them a hefty if not overwhelming advantage, and the people who don't have/can't get into a good guild, and struggle along with sub-standard gear and get their asses kicked consistently by the elitists. Those 2 groups can also be categorized as casual vs harcore. I agree with the whole "you invest more time, you get more powerful than a person who invests less" but I don't think it should be an overwhelming advantage, just a significant edge. I definitely don't think more casual unguilded or crap guilded players should be given a free ride to help them keep up with the hardcore players, but what is the solution to avoid creating the whole polarized community where people who don't raid often are gimps?
It also imply that you won't need to farm mobs for money to buy upgrades. That is a high hope of mine. I see something like enemy corpes being lootable for coin (not the players coin but coin just the same) or some kinda realm point being spent for PvP-only chars being able to get new gear. If PvP quests handing out items the same as PvE quests.
I haven't heard that they removed TOA from DAOC, so it doesn't look like they have actually decided that it was a mistake.
That's why I'm worried, since they don't seem to have fixed the problem with raid gear being better than nonraid gear in DAOC, I expect them to do the same thing in WAR, especially now that they've apparently admitted they'll have raids. It's too bad, I was looking forward to this game but I'm not interested in yet another PVE raid game.
Go raid the big PvE duegon get uber loot
Go raid the Orc capital get uber loot.
Yeah, but Blizzard said exactly that about WOW and look where that ended up. I don't buy any 'close cousin' claims anymore, for me if raiding means you're better, then the game is out, plain and simple.
Yeah, but Blizzard said exactly that about WOW and look where that ended up. I don't buy any 'close cousin' claims anymore, for me if raiding means you're better, then the game is out, plain and simple.
Yeah in WOW you need good gear in order to get the good PVP gear. You could do battlegrounds in all green gear, then eventually get some Blue or even purple gear rewards, but doing instances is a much faster way to get good gear than getting 6,000, 12,000, 30,000, 60,000 rep with 2 or 3 different factions each. And going up PVP levels is pretty slow too. If you spend a lot of time, you can get 1 pvp level every 2 weeks or so, that means about 7 months to get to the top, lvl 14 and the best PVP equipment possible. With the same time investment in raiding high level instances, you could get much better stuff much faster. So you can get pretty nice stuff from pvping only, and you can go up levels from pvping, but raiding is still superior in WOW. And that's what a lot of us are hoping isn't the case in Warhammer.
Of course, this also does not include the PvE quest players can do that effect the overall RvR experience. I just hope it isn't like WoW at all where all of the best gear is set aside for PvE raid encounters, let alone entire battles are decided based on which side mildly outgears the other.
the game will have skill > gear system, so the gear wont be revolutionary in the factor of winning and losing a battle...
You guys are absolutely killing me. Is this the first time youve been to the warhammer boards on MMORPG.com?
Its one thing to ASK if there are raids because you DONT KNOW.
But to say "I EXPECT THEM TO HAVE PVE RAID GEAR".... STOP right there.
Its been made VERY clear that this game is centered around PVP REALM VS REALM unlike its competition WoW which is a PVE game with pvp thrown in at the last moment.
THE GEAR YOU GET FROM PVP WILL BE EQUAL TO GEAR YOU CAN GET DOING PVE.
They didnt say PvP gear will be a close cousin to the Raid PVE gear.
There will not be 40 man raids in WAR - and Actuallly the devs are going to scale Boss mob difficulty against the number of players in a party.
The Best gear will be obtained from sacking cities and crafted gear will be (gasp) good
1) ToA realllllly bit them in the ass
2) This style perhaps a bit more faithful to the TableTop/fantasy campaign version of things
I have a suspicion they have also been watching Guild Wars and Eve (which they should be doign if they aren't dumb). I do not expect them to have the complex series of counters etc that GW has but I do expect that they may go for the class variation and team make up taht game can foster. More lateralness means more diversity in team PvP and therefore more intersting team PvP. This also fits into the Tabletop idea of buying units with points etc so that not all Chaos armies are the same. And finally I think they want to try to get as many people involved without creating artificial barriers such as long leveling to be effective or gear exclusive gear grinds. At the same time I really doubt they want to get rid of the advancement carrot-on-a-stick parardigm to leverage the addicts.
So I am not 100% certain on how they are gonna pull it off, but I think one of their main goals is to err on the side of inclusion, especially for PvP. They know what happened with ToA. They know any out of hand raid rewards will have seriously bad consequences for PvP and since they are saying they want large scale PvP. I am assuming raids if they exist in any traditional sense will either reward differently or be rare and only reward some lucky person occasionally and not be farmable.
Well, that definetly doesn't sound like a good idea imo. How much of a kick in the teeth would that be to people who have earned the item through extensive game playing.
What I hope is that PVE and PVP are almost exactly parallel so you can put in the same amount of time either in PVP or in PVE and get equivalent rewards. So a 8-man dungeon raid would get you the same reward as an 8-man town sacking. However, raids are going to be a lot bigger for PVP for obvious reasons so it might not be quite as similar as that, but along those lines. Where you might need more people for PVP raiding, you'll need more individual prowess so to speak in PVE in order to make up for the lack of numbers.
Just as long as none of this end-game content revolves around farming rep/honour WOW style, Mythic will have done a good job. Also it would be nice to hear about what they have in mind for craftable items, since it seems they're trying to make the items as useful as a boss drop or PVP reward; all this being music to my ears
Well, that definetly doesn't sound like a good idea imo. How much of a kick in the teeth would that be to people who have earned the item through extensive game playing.
What I hope is that PVE and PVP are almost exactly parallel so you can put in the same amount of time either in PVP or in PVE and get equivalent rewards. So a 8-man dungeon raid would get you the same reward as an 8-man town sacking. However, raids are going to be a lot bigger for PVP for obvious reasons so it might not be quite as similar as that, but along those lines. Where you might need more people for PVP raiding, you'll need more individual prowess so to speak in PVE in order to make up for the lack of numbers.
To reply to this statement.
Its a pvp FOCUSED game. So the most reward you can get will come from slaying your enemies, not from slaying computer controled dragons in a cave far far away. that would be another game.
And NO, not all games consiter 8 man less rewarding than zerging an instance. Infact daoc rewarded you MORE for what you could do with one full group in both pvp and pve. One full group got the best PvP point rewards, one full group was the raid limit on the new dungeon.
When you started daoc on day 1 the best weapon you could get was a sword with 16.5 dps....
Fast forward 4 years later.the hard core veteren who played 10 hours a day every day of the week since opening, the best weapon they could get was...... 16.5 dps!
Unlike wow where the best weapon we could get on day 1 was the arcanite reaper (58.3dps), the best non raid weapon we can get is the ice barbed spear. but the best weapon in the game has almost TWICE the dps as both of these weapons. Might of menethil Might of Menethil 95.3, in the hands of a melee charachter the dps is infact more than double with the stregnth bonus added. Want to talk about disparity?
To top it all off DAoC had something that wow says they never will have..... stat caps. You can get all the artifacts in the game you want and all the best items from all the raids and dragon slaying you want. You still had a stat cap of 300. Joe blow could get to 300 in his rag tag player made and solo questing gear. What seperated the two was that you can cap MORE stats if you have the raid gear. So you could be joe blow mage with 300 Int, 300 Dex and 90 stamina or you could be Jose The Epic mage with 300 Int 300 dex and 180 stamina. both of you will do the same damage and cast at the same speed. Where as in wow people in epics can deal out 3-4 tims the damage that people in normal gear can deal, and even worse when compared to poorly geared people.
Hopefull this will not happen in our war game
Especially, if the armor and weapon stats are as useless as people are asking for.
Even a hint that they will have PvE raiding is pretty depressing to me. Because there is the age old problem (well, as old as the age of mmorpgs) that people won't do pve raids unless it results in the best rewards.
So if they don't have it they don't have it and that's great. But if they do have PvE raiding it means that they HAVE to put the very best stuff in as raid rewards. And if they even have alternate paths to equal rewards the alternate paths have to be orders of magnitude slower and more difficult than pve raiding to get the same rewards.
If they want to have PvE raiding they have to make it the best way to get the best rewards. Otherwise nobody would bother with it and they might as well not have it in the first place.
Put simply; people won't do PvE raids unless they feel like they have to. In order to make people feel like they have to do raids you have to gimp people who don't do raids (in one way or another). So if they have PvE raids we're all going to feel like we have to do them and we will be gimped if we don't. I won't do raids anymore so there is no point in me playing a game that has PvE raiding.
I'll withhold judgement on Warhammer for a while yet and hope that they don't go down that path. There are enough raiding games out and in development already. I hope the devs of Warhammer have the sense to realize that they could draw a huge population just by marketing themselves as the game that DOESN'T have PvE raiding.
This seems to be the theme of the replies; 'The devs have said this is a PVP focused game, therefore the best rewards won't come from PVE'. But when have the devs actually said the 'therefore' bit? DAOC, for example, is a PVP focused game, but the best rewards come from PVE. It looks like a bunch of wishful thinking to me; Mythic has carefully not said anything about raiding, people want this not to be a raid game, so they interpret unrelated statements as saying that this won't be a raid game.
Hold. What raiders want and what raiders are going to get are two different things. PvP content and PvE content have to have reward balence. Mythic have said that they know that.
Mythic has also said that you can play the game entirely in PvE or PvP ithout having to do the other. Seems to me like there WILL be raiding but you WON'T have to do it to get the best gear.
You guys are absolutely killing me. Is this the first time youve been to the warhammer boards on MMORPG.com?
Its one thing to ASK if there are raids because you DONT KNOW.
But to say "I EXPECT THEM TO HAVE PVE RAID GEAR".... STOP right there.
Its been made VERY clear that this game is centered around PVP REALM VS REALM unlike its competition WoW which is a PVE game with pvp thrown in at the last moment.
THE GEAR YOU GET FROM PVP WILL BE EQUAL TO GEAR YOU CAN GET DOING PVE.
They didnt say PvP gear will be a close cousin to the Raid PVE gear.
I said close cousin to clarify that gear acquired from
I believe doing a PvE raid will allow you to obtain gear effectivelyPvE and PvP wouldn't be identical (AKA same name same stats). There is no reason to question if there will be Raids, because we already KNOW for a fact there will be. The end game as describied so far details raiding and capturing opposing factions capitols citys. Now since PvP=PvE you would also assume there will be PvE raiding. Otherwise how can PvP loot = PvE loot. Your likely going to need 80+ people to take a capitol to get the best PvP loot. You can't hand out the best PvE loots (which is equal to PvP loot) in an easier manner.
equal to gear acquired from PvP Raids, I doubt they will have the same name
or be identical stat for stat. I don't
think Battleground PvP gear will be equal to raid PvP gear, PvP raid gear will
be better. That is IMO you will get better gear from PvP capitol raids,
then 8v8 (or whatever) battlegrounds. By the same token PvE raids will
give better gear then can be acquired in solo PvE; likewise, PvE raid
gear will be better then Battleground PvP gear. And Raid PvP gear will be
better then solo group PvE gear.
Not only does the best loot for PvE and PvP need to be equal in general stats
in effectiveness. The difficultly in acquiring them needs to be the
same. So if it takes a 50 man PvP raid to get the best PvP acquired gear
it can't take fewer then that to get the best PvE acquired gear.
Otherwise (since gear is equal) everyone will just acquire it the easiest way
possible. There can’t be an easy way.
So gear acquired by
Solo PvE = Solo PvP < single group PvP = single group
PvE < Raid PvP = Raid PvE.
Gear will only be effectively equal not identical. All that means is if a 80DPS sword drops from a PvE dragon a 80DPS sword needs to
drop somewhere in PvP land.
Mythic EA, simply
said gear that can be acquired in PvP will be equal to gear that can be acquired
in PvE. They never said gear that could
be acquired solo will be equal to gear that can be acquired by raiding, be it
PvP or PvE raiding. Thus if you only do
Solo PvP, your gear won’t be as good as someone who raids capitols or high end dungeons. However,
your gear will be equal to someone that only does solo PvE.
I played DAoC for >2 years. I don't need to be lectured on WoW's lack of being a PvP game.
You guys are absolutely killing me. Is this the first time youve been to the warhammer boards on MMORPG.com?
Its one thing to ASK if there are raids because you DONT KNOW.
But to say "I EXPECT THEM TO HAVE PVE RAID GEAR".... STOP right there.
Its been made VERY clear that this game is centered around PVP REALM VS REALM unlike its competition WoW which is a PVE game with pvp thrown in at the last moment.
THE GEAR YOU GET FROM PVP WILL BE EQUAL TO GEAR YOU CAN GET DOING PVE.
They didnt say PvP gear will be a close cousin to the Raid PVE gear.
I said close cousin to clarify that gear acquired from PvE and PvP wouldn't be identical (AKA same name same stats).
I believe doing a PvE raid will allow you to obtain gear effectively equal to gear acquired from PvP Raids, I doubt they will have the same name or be identical stat for stat. I don't think Battleground PvP gear will be equal to raid PvP gear, PvP raid gear will be better. That is IMO you will get better gear from PvP capitol raids, then 8v8 (or whatever) battlegrounds. By the same token PvE raids will give better gear then can be acquired in solo PvE; likewise, PvE raid gear will be better then Battleground PvP gear. And Raid PvP gear will be better then solo group PvE gear.
Not only does the best loot for PvE and PvP need to be equal in general stats in effectiveness. The difficultly in acquiring them needs to be the same. So if it takes a 50 man PvP raid to get the best PvP acquired gear it can't take fewer then that to get the best PvE acquired gear. Otherwise (since gear is equal) everyone will just acquire it the easiest way possible. There can’t be an easy way.
So gear acquired by
Solo PvE = Solo PvP < single group PvP = single group PvE < Raid PvP = Raid PvE.
Gear will only be effectively equal not identical. All that means is if a 80DPS sword drops from a PvE dragon a 80DPS sword needs to drop somewhere in PvP land.
Mythic EA, simply said gear that can be acquired in PvP will be equal to gear that can be acquired in PvE. They never said gear that could be acquired solo will be equal to gear that can be acquired by raiding, be it PvP or PvE raiding. Thus if you only do Solo PvP, your gear won’t be as good as someone who raids capitols or high end dungeons. However, you gear will be equal to someone that only does solo PvE.
I played DAoC for >2 years. I don't need to be lectured on WoW's lack of being a PvP game.
I said close cousin to clarify that gear acquired from PvE and PvP wouldn't be identical (AKA same name same stats).
I believe doing a PvE raid will allow you to obtain gear effectively equal to gear acquired from PvP Raids, I doubt they will have the same name or be identical stat for stat. I don't think Battleground PvP gear will be equal to raid PvP gear, PvP raid gear will be better. That is IMO you will get better gear from PvP capitol raids, then 8v8 (or whatever) battlegrounds. By the same token PvE raids will give better gear then can be acquired in solo PvE; likewise, PvE raid gear will be better then Battleground PvP gear. And Raid PvP gear will be better then solo group PvE gear.
Not only does the best loot for PvE and PvP need to be equal in general stats in effectiveness. The difficultly in acquiring them needs to be the same. So if it takes a 50 man PvP raid to get the best PvP acquired gear it can't take fewer then that to get the best PvE acquired gear. Otherwise (since gear is equal) everyone will just acquire it the easiest way possible. There can’t be an easy way.
So gear acquired by
Solo PvE = Solo PvP < single group PvP = single group PvE < Raid PvP = Raid PvE.
Gear will only be effectively equal not identical. All that means is if a 80DPS sword drops from a PvE dragon a 80DPS sword needs to drop somewhere in PvP land.
Mythic EA, simply said gear that can be acquired in PvP will be equal to gear that can be acquired in PvE. They never said gear that could be acquired solo will be equal to gear that can be acquired by raiding, be it PvP or PvE raiding. Thus if you only do Solo PvP, your gear won’t be as good as someone who raids capitols or high end dungeons. However, you gear will be equal to someone that only does solo PvE.
I played DAoC for >2 years. I don't need to be lectured on WoW's lack of being a PvP game.
But doesn't that raise a whole new question? Should PvP players who don't want to run capitial raids have an equaliviant event(but with smaller amounts of people) where they can get their top notch PvP gear?
Should non-raiding PvEers have some kind of non-raid event where they can get their top notch PvE gear?
I'm not sure if thise will be a problem though. To me it doesn't seem like Capitial raids will consist of "Okay, we have 40 people on their side, 40 people on that side: Go kill each other." I think Mythic said it would be more objective based: Go into the Human's pantry sector and burn everything to decrease their food.
But doesn't that raise a whole new question? Should PvP players who don't want to run capitial raids have an equaliviant event(but with smaller amounts of people) where they can get their top notch PvP gear?
Should non-raiding PvEers have some kind of non-raid event where they can get their top notch PvE gear?
I'm not sure if thise will be a problem though. To me it doesn't seem like Capitial raids will consist of "Okay, we have 40 people on their side, 40 people on that side: Go kill each other." I think Mythic said it would be more objective based: Go into the Human's pantry sector and burn everything to decrease their food.
Well you could do away with top notch gear, and just take the Guild Wars route and have all gear equal at cap level. "Top notch" or "Uber" implies rarity. If everyone can easily get the best gear... well now it is average gear. To have truely balance PvP you would need to give everyone the "best gear" pool as soon as they enter a PvP area.
Guild Wars has proved such a system can work. But once you have the best of everything... What keeps you playing? Knowing that you can not do anything that will improve your char further. WoW destoryed the system... buy putting a huge gap between average gear and uber gear.
IMO the difference should be very small. Average weapon that can be obtiained solo = 70DPS +15 str +15con, Most uber weapon 75DPS +20Str 5% chance to proc for +20 damge.
There should never be a time where based on gear alone 1 warrior could kill two enemy warriors. When I left DAoC if you used the crafting system you'd be hard pressed to find any non-crafted gear that was vasty better. You were talking 3DPS or 3con and stuff like that. Of course ToA came out and kinda killed that off, but mythic realized that was a mistake IMO so that's why I'm not too worried about that problem in WAR really. And if anything WAR is looking to be even more PvP centric then DAoC. In any PvP game you simply can't have people with vastly superiour looting fighting average people, it ruins the run - as there are more average people in the world then any other kind by definition.
Also keep in mind. There are going to be PvP instances and World PvP. Capitol raiding isn't going to be lets get 40 people and go. It's going to be /local chat "Were are going to raid the Elves, join chat "elves die" Groups will be formed but you'll also have singles and other people coming along. Hopefully the elves wouldn't know your coming either and you'd have yourself a nice BBQ.
If any "uber" are ever farmable in anyway WAR will eventually become crap. It may take 3 years but it will happen. The only way to have long term non-stupid uberness is to limit such items with enforced rarity(only 1 may exist per 1000 palyers etc) or item decay.
If any "uber" are ever farmable in anyway WAR will eventually become crap. It may take 3 years but it will happen. The only way to have long term non-stupid uberness is to limit such items with enforced rarity(only 1 may exist per 1000 palyers etc) or item decay.
I don't think it should be 'uber' but I always liked questing for extra stuff near the end of RPGs. Maybe it's the lore end of epics that is bugged.
Maybe instead of 'unique' and 'epic', these weapons should be a strong rite of passage. And not three teirs that take three weeks to get a set of either.
I think TCoS might have the right idea. The unique wepons aren't espeicaly strong, you make any weapon into an 'epic', they just look cool. It's actual there to difference yourself from the rest of the group, not extra stats required!
Problem is you need alot of different semi-unique weapons so that not everyone has the same one, or make availible through random chance quests. You could also make the quests hard to complete but, look what happened to WoW.
I have no proof and I am too lazy to search.
But I feel rather safe to say that you will have non-raiding servers. They will be PvP enable however.
If they done so with DAoC, there is no reason to believe they will do otherwise for WAR. DAoC was an old game, it didn't benefit much from a later inclusion of a non-raiding server, a game featuring such a server at release will benefit a lot from it. I will try WAR, but I have many other concerns, still, I have to try it.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren