Originally posted by Ohaan I agree with everything except that I am not so sure that the people have changed. I think we are still the same but the commercialization of the industry has reached the point where it is now being ultra clinical about marketting. They are just preying on the human nature that is found in all of us.
What do you mean by that? Like 'hype'? As in, "let's take a popular license and make an MMO out of it?"
(Sorry if that sounded cynical, it wasn't intended to be. More of a "what do you mean exactly?")
No prob. What I mean is it seems that developers of the bigger titles are making their games so that they appeal to the common denominator in order to maximize the player base at the expense of creativity and unique gameplay.
Kinda like how McDonalds puts movie merchandise in their happy meals. It does nothing to enhance the food but they know that kids like toys and will patronize the franchise for it. They don't want to risk changing the cheeseburger formula but they want to suck more people in.
Take WoW for example. Players like to get 'stuff', call it greed or whatever. To keep people playing Blizzard has exploited this and made such high level gear available to the hardcore gamer that there is a, IMO, serious imbalance problem with players who cannot afford the same play time.
Basically devs are sitting down and saying," This is profitable industry. Lets do what we can to get as big a piece as we can." Not "Lets break the mold and take the industry in a completely different direction."
I don't play MMOs these days. I'm moving on to things like Sim City, and I'm even cracking out the Playstation 2 again, and going into some of the action and roleplay titles that have come out in the last couple of years. The best thing about not keeping up with what is on PS2, is that you can get games on red label for 50% off or more, and they'll be brand new for you.
Games like the new Oblivion give a ton of creative tools, all of which do not require us to committ to a sub fee. It is a good value, and offers a ton of replayability. One thing I can say about Oblivion is that I'll never run out of content, the "server" is always up, and there is no pressure to grind, twink, or use TS.
I used to play alot, and really enjoy the games. I used to really enjoy playing with others in the MMOs, especially with UO, Star Wars Galaxies, and Seed. I never got the feeling that the people that were in those MMOs put the business of playing get in the way of the play, and the play was very fulfilling.
MMOs used to feel so big, and immersive. Now, they all look small, stale, and about petty things. It reminds me why I left the Cyber Cafe LAN scene for MMOs. There are only so many times you can go "BOOM! Headshot" before it becomes lame.
I haven't purchased a game since December 31, 2005. I'd say I have a rather large collection of them from over the years so there aren't that many games I really feel I need to buy nowadays. If I had the money I'd love to catch up on what I've missed. I'm a big RPG and platformer nerd.
I do understand why Oblivion is so appealing. It removes all of the frustrations that come with MMO's and is a great game that offers a lot. On the other hand however, you can't recreate the things you find in an MMO in a single-player game - community, the experiences, even the drama in-game (and even outside of the game) that you have a laugh at afterwards.
As for your perception of how the gamers mindset has possibly changed or evolved, I see where you're coming from. Yet I've always found people who are playing to have fun while achieving something. There are those who take the game too seriously for my tastes, but I don't allow them to ruin my experience. I stick with people who are playing for the same reasons I am, and I enjoy myself. One of the interesting things about MMO's to me is that so many different mindsets co-exist, whether or not I hate most of them.
There are a million reasons as to why you may not play anymore and I don't know you personally, so I won't assume or guess those reasons to try to persuade you into thinking from my point of view. Hopefully though you'll come across an MMORPG in due time that sparks that interest again.
Originally posted by JustFinch Well, here I am, after lurking on MMORPG.com for the last year I've decided to post my first actual message. Let me introduce myself - I'm Finch, and I'm 18...Yes, yes...young, I know. So - I'm an avid gamer, not pro, not casual, not hardcore, just aspiring. I started playing MMORPG's when I purchased EverQuest about two months before the Ruins of Kunark expansion was released. I was maybe 12 or 13 at the time, but I found that EverQuest was amazing in the days of Verant Interactive. Then I took a break from EverQuest after about a year. One full year of playing the game and I was - GASP - Level 20... Exactly. Like I said, I'm not casual or hardcore, you could actually define me to be the worst online game player on the planet. I quit EverQuest shortly after Shadows of Luclin was announced, and I migrated, like many, to Dark Age of Camelot. Ah - something new, better graphics, better sounds, better animations, beautiful sky -- again, I played this game on and off. I played Albion, decided I hated it. Moved to Midgard, pretty much puked because of the overall poor design of that realm, so I jumped on over to Hibernia....Needless to say, I leveled to 30 or so by the time the New Frontiers expansion was released. I cringed at the elitism that seemed to spread mainstream as Trials of Atlantis was nerfed over and over... So, I waited things out until Gaheris was launched. I loved that server, but alas, the highest level I had on that server was 49...The closest I've ever reached to a level cap...Then I just quit due to Mythic's overall unprofessional handling of the game. I mean, come on more bug fixing and less Sanya Thomas spamming Camelot Herald, PLEASE? Lol. Only kidding. I returned to EverQuest finding a new server and rerolling again. I resubbed to EverQuest right after Gates of Discord was released. I played for three months, making my all-time high level of 53...then I just became bored with the game and the lack of groups for the LDoN expansion. (adventures made exp. grinding so much less a hassle, and it was fun for me.) Then some other expansion came out that raised the level cap from 60 to 65 or something like that. Pardon me if some times/eras/expansions don't matchup with something, it's been a very long time... Well, after quitting EverQuest again, it was time for a new game to come out - a breathe of fresh air that wouldn't last long due to fresh air being polluted so easily - World of Warcraft. To date, I have played one character and one character only since the game launched and unfortunately, you guessed it, this character is not level 60. In fact, he's level 54 only because last month I decided to grind from level 44 to 54. Yup, nearly two years after release with over 16 days /played time and he's only level 54....And worst of all, the keylogger scams/hacks/exploits aren't really helping when it comes to me logging in. Hell, that last South Park episode made me want to delete my character and just burn my copy!! As I've said before, I suck at these online games. I haven't ever made it to the top level, I haven't ever been part of any endgame content... I had someone in WoW lastnight tell me I needed to be level 55 to join their pre-made battleground group, to which I asked, "What if I was level 55?" You know what he/she/it said? "Then I'd tell you that you'd have to be level 56..." I thought they were kidding, until I asked, "What if I was level 60?" then they said, "Then we'd either be full or have a better geared Warlock..." (I'm a Warlock, no purple-texted gear, all blue-green colored) So - the elitism that has chased me from game to game to game has suddenly gone mainstream, alongside the big corporations that destroyed games I 'tried' in-between my absences from the main games (i.e. UO, AC, AC2 [to which I was in the beta for AC2], Horizons [vomits uncontrollably], etc.), and other forms of the industries lack of 'true' innovation has joined the bandwagon too. We're seeing MMO's come out in all directions, and I'm not particular fond of any of them. EverQuest is/was an exception, I mean, it was my 'first' MMO. Everyone has a thing for their 'first-this', 'first-that', 'first-who' (lol, kidding) and it just seems that the overall industry has been milked DRY. Looking to the future, I can see games like Warhammer and Vanguard taking some of WoW's market, especially with about half-dozen players who quit WoW on a daily basis. (thats only a guess) I've played console games since I was 4 or 5 and I've played PC games since I was 6. For 12 years I've LOVED the gaming scene - especially MMO's, even if I'm the worst, but in all honesty - I have never been disappointed at all up until lastnight when I took a step back and thought, "So...At level 54 I have some level 51 premade group leader telling me off because he/she/it has 5 or so other characters that are level 60?" I stepped back, went onto this classic site, and started to read...In fact, I've been doing some reading on the industry for the last six months. It's all been offered and never given - it's all been promised yet never delivered - a true world where one can detach his or her own mind from reality and fully immerse themselves in another dimension/universe/world/planet/era where they can truly leave the real world behind even if for ONE MINUTE to feel as though the very existance of their freshly created/generated pixel-shaded 64-bit to 5-billion polygon, virtual characters can make even a slight difference in that new world... Sorry but, even when I look back at the days of my youth playing EverQuest -- it's all the same -- and it doesn't deliver. With Mythic being bought out by EA, Verant bought by SOE, Microsoft and Sigil seperating and Microsoft letting Turbine manage things on it's own, everybody : do you see the problem yet? Big corporations are pretty much all thats left, and we all know that nowadays it's all about money. You can name off hundreds of features, impliment half of them, then realize that all of these features already exist in other games. But what do companies do when they have dozens of MMO's that already exist with every possible setting/plot/backstory/lore/layout/feature/world etc.? My point being is that there is no such thing as innovation anymore because everything has been done so rapidly in the last 10 years. One of my first memories is playing the SNES when I first recieved it for Christmas... I don't know about you all, but it's awfully depressing when one such as I starts to think, "Wow! Every game to date has been amazing, theres no way the industry can EVER run out of ideas!" then all of a sudden six months later you've read and read and even experienced what you thought was never possible - being part of a dying genre, and to think, one of my best memories was playing EverQuest - now theres nothing left out there and nothing on the horizon. (no pun intended in terms of Horizons : Empire of Istaria) I've played MMO's from EverQuest to WoW, Ultima Online to AC, DAoC to EverQuest II, Guild Wars to Star Wars Galaxies, EVE to Runescape, Lineage II to MapleStory, Gunz to Shadowbane....I've played most (if not all) of the mid-popular to highly popular games and just don't find joy in any of them anymore. I guess the real meaning of this post is : Doesn't anyone feel the same way, and if so, as a consumer shouldn't we do something about this?
Your not the worst MMO player. You know why? Because I am. I've never made it even half way to the last level in ANY MMORPG.
I turn to you now, father death. I beg of you, please consider you may have been wrong... -Blind Guardian
Originally posted by Ohaan No prob. What I mean is it seems that developers of the bigger titles are making their games so that they appeal to the common denominator in order to maximize the player base at the expense of creativity and unique gameplay.
Kinda like how McDonalds puts movie merchandise in their happy meals. It does nothing to enhance the food but they know that kids like toys and will patronize the franchise for it. They don't want to risk changing the cheeseburger formula but they want to suck more people in.
Take WoW for example. Players like to get 'stuff', call it greed or whatever. To keep people playing Blizzard has exploited this and made such high level gear available to the hardcore gamer that there is a, IMO, serious imbalance problem with players who cannot afford the same play time.
Basically devs are sitting down and saying," This is profitable industry. Lets do what we can to get as big a piece as we can." Not "Lets break the mold and take the industry in a completely different direction."
Thanks for clearing that up; I had a feeling that's what you were talking about.
It is a huge problem with high level/endgame content. A lot of developers plug the most interesting gameplay and most rewarding content for higher level players only. It makes logical sense when you want your subscribers to continue playing. It's been the formula of success for years.
If only they could realize that innovation equals success as well.
This has been the most well thought out thread by posters since i've been reading mmorpg.com. Fantastic read by the OP. I'm now 25 years old and I've been gaming since I was about 12. I feel as if a major MMORPG has not come out from a company I want to buy from in quite sometime. Games like Roma Victor, Archlord, etc just do not do it for me. I'm currently awaiting Vanguard. I saw someone say "I haven't had the holy crap, this game is fun" feeling in a long time. I concur! I haven't had that feeling in a VERY long time where i'm sitting in my office, somewhere thinking "Can't wait to get home, kick off my shoes, grab a drink and log in". My original game was UO for MMORPGs (Before that it was MUDS). I really think we're about to hit a market that is going to have several big MMORPGs come out in the next year, and then a nice long hiatus of a couple of years before anything else relatively large comes out. It's kind of like your favorite author and books, sometimes it's a year for the book to come out, or maybe four years! But, lets all keep our fingers crossed for this next batch of games!
i agree, im also a fan of FPS games... try CSS or Day of Defeat. I used to play halo and halo 2 also those were fun for a while. I am currently MMOless also and it sucks. Hah but im prob the youngest one here so my gaming experience started at around 7... played mario and what not, got AOL and played neopets til i was bout 11 or so went to runescape played that til i was around 14. Played halo til currently and now im stuck on what MMORPG to get due to the low cash flow. I applied to 7 jobs. 0 accepted me. It sucks, but from the feedback im seeing the industry is not quit dry just people have different preferences and opinions. I still have not found a game that im like wow i wana go buy that now. Still waiting, most likely warhammer might get me, i am also starting on courses at my local community college for C++, I will do Java and VB later also.
Originally posted by Hadesprime Eve online is not ground breaking in any way really.
Consider this
the most fun had in the game is in 0,0 space total unbridled PVP. But you can't even think about really doing this till you have at least 3 Million Skill points trained up and it had better be trained up in skills that let you do what do you very well. That takes at least 3 to 4 months to accomplish. The rest of the game is just menial pointless grinding of NPC"s that serve no real purpose. New people can easily burn out before they even get into that space. Most corps also will not even look at you till you do.
As well where as the skill system is real time should you meet someone in PVP who has 6 million SP and you have 3 to 4 Million SP both trained up in combat vessels and skils, the one wih 6 million will win every time unless the have fallen asleep at the keyboard.
So its a great game where it excels but really its just another grind where the guy with the biggest gun and supporting muscles wins . Different setup but still suffers the inherent problems that plague MMO's today.
But consider this:
I'm fully aware that the beginning of the game is slow. I myself quit after the first time I played the trial because I thought the whole game was like that. I of course am not positive yet, but I've begun to think I was wrong. The point in my post was: consider the alternative. In WoW, the most recent MMO I played before EvE, I had a blast from 1-59. But after those first two months, I was left with nothing. Raiding is a joke, and the game I had enjoyed ceases to exist at 60. EvE, from what I've read and can tell, seems to be the opposite of this. That's all I was saying.
However, even though EvE's gameplay in the beginning is relatively insipid, my early inclusion into a corp that suited me has already served to make the early game just as enjoyable as any other MMO's beginning stages. As for the inability to get into a corp early on...
...I can tell you from experience that you're dead wrong. I got into a corp I already enjoy on my second day. This was my biggest mistake when I first played the game: not researching into corps and staying instead with the newbie placeholder-corp. Sure, you can sit in Orgrimmar or Omni HQ or whatever and respond to one of the spam recruiters. Or you can actively seek out the kind of corp/guild/whatever that offers what you want. No one should have to hold your hand.
In response to a six-million SP veteran besting a three-million SP player, well...welcome to the concept of stat-based advancement. Yes, in a 1v1 fight, it's impossible for anything other than sheer stats to determine the outcome in a match-up where stats define the characters. EvE does not feature twitch gameplay. But the same holds true for any other non-twitch MMORPG. The strength of EvE's PvP lies in group conflict, where fleet battles play out like chess matches. Despite my newbness, I and some other newbs, all in newb frigates with newb SP, along with the help of two veteran players, were chasing down and killing player pirate groups near our HQ. Sure, we newbs didn't win the battle by ourselves, but I can assure you our presence made a difference. I'd like to see three level 20s in WoW make any difference to a couple of level 50s. But until we lose our dependency on stats, 1v1s are always going to play out according to the numbers. It's what a game does with the bigger picture that makes for an engaging and rewarding experience.
Originally posted by Kraetus Originally posted by Hadesprime Eve online is not ground breaking in any way really.
Consider this
the most fun had in the game is in 0,0 space total unbridled PVP. But you can't even think about really doing this till you have at least 3 Million Skill points trained up and it had better be trained up in skills that let you do what do you very well. That takes at least 3 to 4 months to accomplish. The rest of the game is just menial pointless grinding of NPC"s that serve no real purpose. New people can easily burn out before they even get into that space. Most corps also will not even look at you till you do.
As well where as the skill system is real time should you meet someone in PVP who has 6 million SP and you have 3 to 4 Million SP both trained up in combat vessels and skils, the one wih 6 million will win every time unless the have fallen asleep at the keyboard.
So its a great game where it excels but really its just another grind where the guy with the biggest gun and supporting muscles wins . Different setup but still suffers the inherent problems that plague MMO's today.
But consider this:
I'm fully aware that the beginning of the game is slow. I myself quit after the first time I played the trial because I thought the whole game was like that. I of course am not positive yet, but I've begun to think I was wrong. The point in my post was: consider the alternative. In WoW, the most recent MMO I played before EvE, I had a blast from 1-59. But after those first two months, I was left with nothing. Raiding is a joke, and the game I had enjoyed ceases to exist at 60. EvE, from what I've read and can tell, seems to be the opposite of this. That's all I was saying.
However, even though EvE's gameplay in the beginning is relatively insipid, my early inclusion into a corp that suited me has already served to make the early game just as enjoyable as any other MMO's beginning stages. As for the inability to get into a corp early on...
...I can tell you from experience that you're dead wrong. I got into a corp I already enjoy on my second day. This was my biggest mistake when I first played the game: not researching into corps and staying instead with the newbie placeholder-corp. Sure, you can sit in Orgrimmar or Omni HQ or whatever and respond to one of the spam recruiters. Or you can actively seek out the kind of corp/guild/whatever that offers what you want. No one should have to hold your hand.
In response to a six-million SP veteran besting a three-million SP player, well...welcome to the concept of stat-based advancement. Yes, in a 1v1 fight, it's impossible for anything other than sheer stats to determine the outcome in a match-up where stats define the characters. EvE does not feature twitch gameplay. But the same holds true for any other non-twitch MMORPG. The strength of EvE's PvP lies in group conflict, where fleet battles play out like chess matches. Despite my newbness, I and some other newbs, all in newb frigates with newb SP, along with the help of two veteran players, were chasing down and killing player pirate groups near our HQ. Sure, we newbs didn't win the battle by ourselves, but I can assure you our presence made a difference. I'd like to see three level 20s in WoW make any difference to a couple of level 50s. But until we lose our dependency on stats, 1v1s are always going to play out according to the numbers. It's what a game does with the bigger picture that makes for an engaging and rewarding experience.
some day i'll tell the story of how 5 of our level 39 twinks owned the living hell out of twice thier number of level 60s in STV (good times all around )
on the original subject, i'll have to agree the industry is at a point where we haven't really seen anything new for the past year or so. heck, i've been dying for a new Sci-fi MMO since i left AO 2 years ago (AI, nuff said). but on the idea of new, ground breaking directions to take the industry to, there's very little incentive for developers and companies to do so.
look at DDO if you want an example, DDO had all the signs of making it big, then it made 2 serious blunders (in my own opinion offcourse), the first was not taking advantage of an already established D&D setting (if it was set in the Forgotten realms, Dragon lance or even grayhawk or darksun setting, it would have had ALOT more subscriptions) and the second one was the playstyle which was group focused and instance focused to the extent a solo player had almost nothing to do (a mistake they have tried to remedy with a single player playability patch, that came too late).
so there you have it, an example of a game that tried to take it in a somewhat different direction (Wholly instanced, group forcing) and flopped, horribly. with such an example (and some others i'm too lazy to remember at the moment) is it any wonder gaming companies push to the EQ/WoW mold?
oh yeah, can't leave without poking EVE some (i do ahve an account i play maybe 4-5hrs/week), my dissapointment with eve is that most of the interesting playstyle in it is in 0.0 space, and 0.0 space for the most part is a horrible zerg fest, gate camping, and mega corps filled to the brim with elitist jerks (or at least this has been my experience, i've been reduced back to poverty and a single cruiser more times then i can count being repeatadly blown out of space by swarms of well equiped corps more times then i can count )
Originally posted by JustFinch Well, here I am, after lurking on MMORPG.com for the last year I've decided to post my first actual message. Let me introduce myself - I'm Finch, and I'm 18...Yes, yes...young, I know. So - I'm an avid gamer, not pro, not casual, not hardcore, just aspiring. I started playing MMORPG's when I purchased EverQuest about two months before the Ruins of Kunark expansion was released. I was maybe 12 or 13 at the time, but I found that EverQuest was amazing in the days of Verant Interactive. Then I took a break from EverQuest after about a year. One full year of playing the game and I was - GASP - Level 20... Exactly. Like I said, I'm not casual or hardcore, you could actually define me to be the worst online game player on the planet. I quit EverQuest shortly after Shadows of Luclin was announced, and I migrated, like many, to Dark Age of Camelot. Ah - something new, better graphics, better sounds, better animations, beautiful sky -- again, I played this game on and off. I played Albion, decided I hated it. Moved to Midgard, pretty much puked because of the overall poor design of that realm, so I jumped on over to Hibernia....Needless to say, I leveled to 30 or so by the time the New Frontiers expansion was released. I cringed at the elitism that seemed to spread mainstream as Trials of Atlantis was nerfed over and over... So, I waited things out until Gaheris was launched. I loved that server, but alas, the highest level I had on that server was 49...The closest I've ever reached to a level cap...Then I just quit due to Mythic's overall unprofessional handling of the game. I mean, come on more bug fixing and less Sanya Thomas spamming Camelot Herald, PLEASE? Lol. Only kidding. I returned to EverQuest finding a new server and rerolling again. I resubbed to EverQuest right after Gates of Discord was released. I played for three months, making my all-time high level of 53...then I just became bored with the game and the lack of groups for the LDoN expansion. (adventures made exp. grinding so much less a hassle, and it was fun for me.) Then some other expansion came out that raised the level cap from 60 to 65 or something like that. Pardon me if some times/eras/expansions don't matchup with something, it's been a very long time... Well, after quitting EverQuest again, it was time for a new game to come out - a breathe of fresh air that wouldn't last long due to fresh air being polluted so easily - World of Warcraft. To date, I have played one character and one character only since the game launched and unfortunately, you guessed it, this character is not level 60. In fact, he's level 54 only because last month I decided to grind from level 44 to 54. Yup, nearly two years after release with over 16 days /played time and he's only level 54....And worst of all, the keylogger scams/hacks/exploits aren't really helping when it comes to me logging in. Hell, that last South Park episode made me want to delete my character and just burn my copy!! As I've said before, I suck at these online games. I haven't ever made it to the top level, I haven't ever been part of any endgame content... I had someone in WoW lastnight tell me I needed to be level 55 to join their pre-made battleground group, to which I asked, "What if I was level 55?" You know what he/she/it said? "Then I'd tell you that you'd have to be level 56..." I thought they were kidding, until I asked, "What if I was level 60?" then they said, "Then we'd either be full or have a better geared Warlock..." (I'm a Warlock, no purple-texted gear, all blue-green colored) So - the elitism that has chased me from game to game to game has suddenly gone mainstream, alongside the big corporations that destroyed games I 'tried' in-between my absences from the main games (i.e. UO, AC, AC2 [to which I was in the beta for AC2], Horizons [vomits uncontrollably], etc.), and other forms of the industries lack of 'true' innovation has joined the bandwagon too. We're seeing MMO's come out in all directions, and I'm not particular fond of any of them. EverQuest is/was an exception, I mean, it was my 'first' MMO. Everyone has a thing for their 'first-this', 'first-that', 'first-who' (lol, kidding) and it just seems that the overall industry has been milked DRY. Looking to the future, I can see games like Warhammer and Vanguard taking some of WoW's market, especially with about half-dozen players who quit WoW on a daily basis. (thats only a guess) I've played console games since I was 4 or 5 and I've played PC games since I was 6. For 12 years I've LOVED the gaming scene - especially MMO's, even if I'm the worst, but in all honesty - I have never been disappointed at all up until lastnight when I took a step back and thought, "So...At level 54 I have some level 51 premade group leader telling me off because he/she/it has 5 or so other characters that are level 60?" I stepped back, went onto this classic site, and started to read...In fact, I've been doing some reading on the industry for the last six months. It's all been offered and never given - it's all been promised yet never delivered - a true world where one can detach his or her own mind from reality and fully immerse themselves in another dimension/universe/world/planet/era where they can truly leave the real world behind even if for ONE MINUTE to feel as though the very existance of their freshly created/generated pixel-shaded 64-bit to 5-billion polygon, virtual characters can make even a slight difference in that new world... Sorry but, even when I look back at the days of my youth playing EverQuest -- it's all the same -- and it doesn't deliver. With Mythic being bought out by EA, Verant bought by SOE, Microsoft and Sigil seperating and Microsoft letting Turbine manage things on it's own, everybody : do you see the problem yet? Big corporations are pretty much all thats left, and we all know that nowadays it's all about money. You can name off hundreds of features, impliment half of them, then realize that all of these features already exist in other games. But what do companies do when they have dozens of MMO's that already exist with every possible setting/plot/backstory/lore/layout/feature/world etc.? My point being is that there is no such thing as innovation anymore because everything has been done so rapidly in the last 10 years. One of my first memories is playing the SNES when I first recieved it for Christmas... I don't know about you all, but it's awfully depressing when one such as I starts to think, "Wow! Every game to date has been amazing, theres no way the industry can EVER run out of ideas!" then all of a sudden six months later you've read and read and even experienced what you thought was never possible - being part of a dying genre, and to think, one of my best memories was playing EverQuest - now theres nothing left out there and nothing on the horizon. (no pun intended in terms of Horizons : Empire of Istaria) I've played MMO's from EverQuest to WoW, Ultima Online to AC, DAoC to EverQuest II, Guild Wars to Star Wars Galaxies, EVE to Runescape, Lineage II to MapleStory, Gunz to Shadowbane....I've played most (if not all) of the mid-popular to highly popular games and just don't find joy in any of them anymore. I guess the real meaning of this post is : Doesn't anyone feel the same way, and if so, as a consumer shouldn't we do something about this?
I've played almost everything you've played... and felt the same way for the most part. Except when I found Lineage 2, at first I felt the same way about Lineage2 as well, but after one long year, I have been able to really dig myself into the L2 community and politics... amazing... wars, politics, controling territories, will drive you to play. I think you need a drive to play MMOs man. If you skim to every MMORPG, you'll end up hating ALL of them because everything boils down to the same old pattern/concept. Dig into a game and stick with it (at the same time be responsible in RL :P). RL>GameLife.
Ventrilo/Teamspeak with your clan helps alot too. Helps build relationships.
Nice post from an 18-year old and nice thread aswell.
@OP : Don´t worry, you´re not the worst MMO-gamer. I have NEVER managed lvl 8 in EQ because I was bored to death by the time I got to lvl 7. God, did I hate EQ In WoW the best I got to was lvl 34 and I´ll need to be paid to return to that questgrinding POS. But you can´t really argue about people´s tastes, each has his own.
My own taste is UO pre-powerhour, pre-Renaissance. I loved not having to look at my skilltab, guildlife, hunting with peeps, casual RPing and the occasional PK- bashing. Most of all I liked the "pioneer"-feeling that was spread out allover the game. UO wasn´t easily accessible and it didn´t intend to be, either. In a way, it was the most elitist game ever to hit the shelves, but more from an RPing perspective. The game provided the landmass, things to kill, most of them rather dangerous, tons of tradeskills, a player-based economy and that was that. No quests, no levels, nothing. We had to make up our own fun and we did. Some went PK, some went PKK , others did hi-end crafting, many just fooled around and many roleplayed. Others just wondered around for the sightseeing or spent lots of time looking at a black&white world and saying "OOoOoOoOooo". I did all of that (except PK-ing ).
Then came EQ and everything became just a bit easier. Verant had the ingenious idea to put a carrot infront of the gamer´s nose and it worked. Levelgrinding and ubeR-l00t as a goal in playing. Now, personally, I hate EQ, but I won´t bash it. It´s a milestone and it created a school of gaming that is -even today- the most influencial. What I WILL bash, is the inability of other game publishers to escape from EQs tired -and tiring- grinding concept. Ok, it sells, but that doesn´t mean that a different approach wouldn´t. More playing, less working, the whole grinding/equipment hunting thing is like just another job. And it creates this "beat-the-game"-mentality which I find totally inappropriate (sp?) for MMORPGs.
But hell, I´m ranting, I know . So,-yes- I agree : the industry IS all dried up. But I have high hopes that it won´t last forever. I´m still waiting for some kind of "anti-WoW" and I know it will come. And if it doesn´t , well then I just might dig up my old pen&paper rulebooks.
I'm fully aware that the beginning of the game is slow. I myself quit after the first time I played the trial because I thought the whole game was like that. I of course am not positive yet, but I've begun to think I was wrong. The point in my post was: consider the alternative. In WoW, the most recent MMO I played before EvE, I had a blast from 1-59. But after those first two months, I was left with nothing. Raiding is a joke, and the game I had enjoyed ceases to exist at 60. EvE, from what I've read and can tell, seems to be the opposite of this. That's all I was saying.
However, even though EvE's gameplay in the beginning is relatively insipid, my early inclusion into a corp that suited me has already served to make the early game just as enjoyable as any other MMO's beginning stages. As for the inability to get into a corp early on...
...I can tell you from experience that you're dead wrong. I got into a corp I already enjoy on my second day. This was my biggest mistake when I first played the game: not researching into corps and staying instead with the newbie placeholder-corp. Sure, you can sit in Orgrimmar or Omni HQ or whatever and respond to one of the spam recruiters. Or you can actively seek out the kind of corp/guild/whatever that offers what you want. No one should have to hold your hand.
In response to a six-million SP veteran besting a three-million SP player, well...welcome to the concept of stat-based advancement. Yes, in a 1v1 fight, it's impossible for anything other than sheer stats to determine the outcome in a match-up where stats define the characters. EvE does not feature twitch gameplay. But the same holds true for any other non-twitch MMORPG. The strength of EvE's PvP lies in group conflict, where fleet battles play out like chess matches. Despite my newbness, I and some other newbs, all in newb frigates with newb SP, along with the help of two veteran players, were chasing down and killing player pirate groups near our HQ. Sure, we newbs didn't win the battle by ourselves, but I can assure you our presence made a difference. I'd like to see three level 20s in WoW make any difference to a couple of level 50s. But until we lose our dependency on stats, 1v1s are always going to play out according to the numbers. It's what a game does with the bigger picture that makes for an engaging and rewarding experience.
Eve is an ok game but as I said it breaks no molds. The core game is still grind especially if you want to buy anything. How do you think everything ends up on the market for you to buy and outfit your ship ? Someone had to go mine the material and or produce the said weapons and ships ? Whether its your corp doing it or not it still has to happen. Not that this is bad but my point is that people say the game is earth shattering and ground breaking. It simply is not and suffers from the same issues and design flaws as other games.
As far as a corp yes its utterly important you find one that fits you quickly. But all the ones I ran into where either ultra casual and weren't in 0.0 space or they were in 0,0 space and wouldn't even look at me till I could pilot a BS effectively.
When I read your post, an ancient greek prophecy came to my mind, which said, that the end of the world was near, when young people started to be like old granpas and grannys. So given your style the end is nigh.
Seriously, I try not to bring age as an argument, but seeing you know so many games and have gathered so much MMO experience, I dont know if I should admire or shudder. I play a lot of computer games, and I did so for 20 years. But when I was 12 or 15... well I was OUTSIDE. Sorry for being an old fart who seems to lecture, but I had to say this.
In another way, you are basically right. Games lack creativity now, in solo games and MMOs. I recall really great games 10 - 15 years ago, games which I still can quote from cutscenes, whose intros and extros gave me teary eyes and whose characters and storyline I will always remember. Now... most is hollow hogwash. Most games just lost the magic. Anyone recalls the end of the old Ultima games? Ultima 4 - 7? They were simple slideshows, nothing that could compete with anything, but they had magic, they had caught me! The places, the characters, the things inside... its not a matter of graphics, its a vision, the will and ability to tell stories, which is an art in itself and seems to be lost to most games. I always feel so sorry for all those young players, who never have seen those great games of the 80ies and early 90ies. Hits like Day of the Tentacle, Lands of Lore, the old Might and Magics and Wizardrys, the Ultimas... too many to name them. THEY had magic.
It seems lost to most companies, and I can't really say why they only make very average mass products.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Actually there are games that 'break the mold' and try new things. You guys just aren't looking at them.
Take Auto Assault for example. It did some new things, tried to do something different. Eve is different. Space Cowboy is different. CoX is different. Guild Wars is different. DDO is a little different. Face of Mankind is different. Matrix Online is different. Planetside is different. Second Life is different. WW2Online is different.
I mean really, how much variety do you want? There are any number of games out there that do things vastly different from WoW, and all I did was look at the list of forums to the left.
The problem isn't the market, it's the players. See if we really wanted innovation above all else, we'd be playing games like AutoAssault and Planetside and Second Life, but those games aren't that popular. People won't play a game just because it's got new feature X if the rest of the game isn't that great. The game as a whole has to be great as opposed to just one new thing. That's what WoW did, it's a game that's great in every area, and that's why it's so popular.
The time where companies churned out MMOs left right and center each with a different new feature is over. The games didn't do well so people stopped trying to sell their MMO on some new 'innovative' feature. You also can't just reach into a hat and pull out something "new and innovative" that will work. The genre has alot of things that work already, and there isn't really some feature that MMOs are all missing.
So what you're asking for really isn't feasible.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Originally posted by avienthas Nice post from an 18-year old and nice thread aswell.
@OP : Don´t worry, you´re not the worst MMO-gamer. I have NEVER managed lvl 8 in EQ because I was bored to death by the time I got to lvl 7. God, did I hate EQ In WoW the best I got to was lvl 34 and I´ll need to be paid to return to that questgrinding POS. But you can´t really argue about people´s tastes, each has his own.
My own taste is UO pre-powerhour, pre-Renaissance. I loved not having to look at my skilltab, guildlife, hunting with peeps, casual RPing and the occasional PK- bashing. Most of all I liked the "pioneer"-feeling that was spread out allover the game. UO wasn´t easily accessible and it didn´t intend to be, either. In a way, it was the most elitist game ever to hit the shelves, but more from an RPing perspective. The game provided the landmass, things to kill, most of them rather dangerous, tons of tradeskills, a player-based economy and that was that. No quests, no levels, nothing. We had to make up our own fun and we did. Some went PK, some went PKK , others did hi-end crafting, many just fooled around and many roleplayed. Others just wondered around for the sightseeing or spent lots of time looking at a black&white world and saying "OOoOoOoOooo". I did all of that (except PK-ing ).
Then came EQ and everything became just a bit easier. Verant had the ingenious idea to put a carrot infront of the gamer´s nose and it worked. Levelgrinding and ubeR-l00t as a goal in playing. Now, personally, I hate EQ, but I won´t bash it. It´s a milestone and it created a school of gaming that is -even today- the most influencial. What I WILL bash, is the inability of other game publishers to escape from EQs tired -and tiring- grinding concept. Ok, it sells, but that doesn´t mean that a different approach wouldn´t. More playing, less working, the whole grinding/equipment hunting thing is like just another job. And it creates this "beat-the-game"-mentality which I find totally inappropriate (sp?) for MMORPGs.
But hell, I´m ranting, I know . So,-yes- I agree : the industry IS all dried up. But I have high hopes that it won´t last forever. I´m still waiting for some kind of "anti-WoW" and I know it will come. And if it doesn´t , well then I just might dig up my old pen&paper rulebooks.
Could not have said it better myself. Games like early UO let the players do their own thing. For some this was really good and for others it was really bad. Verrant took notice and made the EQ gaming experience pre determined. They didnt want 'creative' players causing problems for the mainstream so they set very firm limits in the game. The result was a shallower overall experience but more subscribers. Money talks.
Hopefully WoW's attraction of millions to the market will be a good thing in the long run. Just maybe some developers will feel that the MMO pie is so big that even a small piece is worth making something different.
Originally posted by donkey35 do you really think for the next 20 years people are just gonna copy Everquest
That depends on what you mean by copying. Technological advancements will probably allow for significant evolution of the genre. However if you look at the music or movie segments of the entertainment industry for comparison, it has basically been the same trend of 'intellectual pablum' for the last decade. Britney Spears, Pussy Cat Dolls, movies with no story and crappy actors but big guns, big breasts, and big explosions, etc. All that stuff sells and it hard to ignore profit. So while modern MMO's may look less and less like original EQ, the mentality established by it may endure.
To Finch, you are well-spoken for 18, so I'm going to show you respect by focusing on where I disagree.
1. Firstly, the "big corporations" bit seems like a tacked-on cliche. Maybe you have a point, maybe you don't but if so it hasn't really been made. Producers only make what customers want, and being large makes finding enough customers to be profitable harder, not easier. In this industry, like most, there are large and small producers and neither is immune from making lousy games.
However, if we do want to generalize, industries cycle between two development approaches. We tend to call these "evolution" vs. "revolution". A new idea is created and shows promise. Then it gets fleshed out and distilled with limited variations until a "standard" is reached. Both steps are completely necessary - without innovation everything is just a clone of everything else. Without polish, you get good ideas done badly.
It tends to be that small companies innovate and large companies polish. This makes sense from both standpoints - a small organization can't have a 50-person art team creating an elaborate world - if they could they wouldn't be small. A large business could theoretically fund a lot of small, divergent, untested ideas - but it's very dangerous to the brand. (I'm not sure how clear that is so I can explain more if you like.)
So there could hypothetically be a "dry" time in the industry if there isn't much risk-taking right now. It's possible. But I don't know if it's true. CCP, Cryptic, and I would say Nevrax have all taken some interesting risks. (The second may have backed off on that a bit, time will tell if they learned from it.) Maybe the early adopters in their games are on to something, or maybe they're niche and the next big thing hasn't come yet. Time will tell. But the lesson is that pleasant surprises come from where they're not expected. (Which is why I'm not holding my breath on Vanguard, personally.)
Of course we're merely speaking in the abstract. See point 3 below.
2. It seems you're drawing a conclusion about the makers but the arguments are leveled at the players. Certainly our MMOGs have plenty of rude, exclusionary control freaks. But you know the world has a lot of those. MMOs being what they are I can't expect not to find those people online. Truth be told, you and I are both well-spoken, reasonable people but we might not get along at all online.
For example, you might decide that I am too focused on results to the exclusion of personal variances (and fun). I might equally conclude that you are shrugging off your responsibilities on other members of the group by not being the best that you can. There's nothing wrong with either of these viewpoints, or either of us. But you have to conclude that they don't mix well - at least not with any system I've found yet.
(Lately I've taken to summarizing this dichotomy with the hypothetical: What's more rude, for a group to start without someone or for one person to keep the group waiting? Specifics vary based on the length of the wait and other things but for the most part people divide pretty well on that.)
Of course the fact that non everyone is one way or the other means there are enough of the "right" people for any of us to group with. We just need to find them.
3. The biggest issue I have with your post though, Finch, is that I wish you were more specific on what you want. For all you know, there are several game designers reading this thread and it's clear that you're not happy with the current state but not what they should do differently to include you. Now that's no crime - it's not the customers' job to design products, only to render judgement on the completed ones. But for a commentary on the industry, I'd like to see what specifically you'd want done differently.
Slower/faster leveling? More/less gear relevancy? More/fewer instances? Larger/smaller group sizes? And it doesn't have to be a completed idea. But something concrete to work, even just a starting point, with would definitely make for a stronger argument.
Slower/faster leveling? More/less gear relevancy? More/fewer instances? Larger/smaller group sizes? And it doesn't have to be a completed idea. But something concrete to work, even just a starting point, with would definitely make for a stronger argument.
- NO levelling. NO classes. A very hard to top skill system is my cup of tea. Infact, it should be that hard to top that noone even bothers checking it while playing. - Next to NONE gear relevancy. Enough gear to guarantee many different gamestyles, but the no great differences in gearpower, or it becomes a lootfest. And good gear should mostly be player-made, please. - NO groups at all. I don´t need a group window or function or chat to go out with friends.
Additionaly:
- NO global chat, NO /tell or /whisper or /yell. An overhead/local chat does it. - NO "must-have" items that require camping or grinding. - NO pvp at all, OR totally free pvp. In other words: either a world of danger, or just pve. - NO global map. - Interactive environment. - NO BLOODY INSTANCES - GMs that actually ban griefers, exploiters and other scum.
And while we´re at it:
- Peace and prosperity for everyone on earth. - My very own alliance space cruiser.
i started thing the same dry way since i can't find a mmo i like anymore, most of them i will get to like lvl 30 and quit cuz i am deathley tired of it
If you want games to be immersive and moldbreaking rather than a game of positions in a football match, why not starting with the question "how would game worlds work if they were like in 'reality'"?
Take the fantasy genre.
* Is it probable that in a world of dragons, elves and orcs, a fighter would get radically better at fighting through gaining levels (so that people who were 5 levels below him would stand absolutely no chance) just because he had killed a lot of spiders?
If this is not so, what would be the real case? I'd say that in the real case a 'level 50' character would be downed by a huge spear thrust through his chest just, or almost just as easily as a 'level 1' character. (The actual difference would rather be how likely a spear would get through to do this, however in no way would the 'level 50' character ever be invulnerable, yet at the same time mincemeat when he met a 'level 60' player.)
By the same token, how come a fierce red dragon is hundred percent deadly to a novice player, but a child's play to a 'level 60' character? Wouldn't a dragon's fire burn both of them just as fatally?
* Is it real to think that medieval type fighting was a matter of having two tanks, one spellcaster, a fetcher and something else and limits to how many can be present in a group?
If not, how was real medieval type fighting carried out?
* Is it realistic to believe that different weapons have astronomical differences in ability, just because they were crafted by higher level crafters or have magic properties? Weapons in MOORPG's sure have come a long way from the difference between a normal longsword and a +5 magic longsword, which was the best you could get in Dungeons and Dragons. Now it's more like +0 and +300.
Isn't it rather that in real warfare, different types of weapons performed different functions. The difference between a broadsword and a halberd lay not in intrinsic deadliness, but in what foe was being fought and how (foot or mounted opponents, individually or deployed in great masses of infantry etc).
* How real, or indeed fun, does it feel to fight opponents who really are just cardbords that will swing up again as soon as you've left the area, and the slaying of which have absolutely no impact on the world? How realistic is it that you can kill off the kobolds one by one, while their pals stand idly by 20 meters away? Indeed, what are they doing just standing around in that place to begin with?
How would real intelligent opponents react? How would actual hunting for wild animals differ from hand to hand fighting with orcs?
* What is XP really, and must XP above all be connected to killing things? Wouldn't for example time spent in fighting be about as important if it came to real combat experience?
I could go on a long time like this. Bottomline: the genre suffers because so many players take a mass of totally arbitrary notions for granted that have none, or next to no relevance in a real world, or indeed in the world of a fantasy novel.
Oh, and by the way. The level grind in a combat centered game and all its competitiveness and exclusivism is more or less unavoidable as long as you insist on a game where no one ever dies combined with a levelling ladder.
Originally posted by iHatePants My first MMO game was my best experience with a MMO game. I went into thinking "WOW! A huge world for me to explore and meet and play with thousands of other people online!" I still do my best to maintain this thinking when I get started with a new MMO.
Regardless of what game it is, that is the same thought and experience I use when approaching any game.
I'm not sure how much more specific you want Finch to be. He seemed pretty clear to me, and the rest of us who agree with him. Perhaps it is the game designers and publishers that are out of touch, or maybe they are in touch, and simply do not see Finch and myself as people worth anything to them?
Because as much as you seem to try and argue that Finch's post is unclear, I find that your post, and the intent behind it, is far more unclear, and rather condecending.
To start, I'm not sure that I really care how the MMO business works. Whether or not the big business polishes, evolves, stages a revolution, or innovates is of little concern to me. To me, it is their job to run the business and design end the way they have to, and its the job of Finch and I to have fun. If their job to make games helps me to do my job of amusing myself, then we can do business together, and there is no problem.
But there is a problem, because I'm not amused by MMOs these days. I used to be, so it is not like I cannot be amused by an MMO. In fact, I'd very much enjoy an MMO. So it seems to me that the reasons I can't find one may have to do with the following:
1) The industry knows what I want, but cannot do it.
2) The industry knows what I want, but doesn't care.
3) The industry doesn't know what I want, but thinks it does.
4) The industry doesn't know what I want, and doesn't care.
Now if it is a matter of knowing what I want, but unable to do it, then I'd like to know why they can't do it, given that they were able to do it before?
If it is a matter of knowing what I want, but not caring, then I'd like to know why they don't care about what I want now, given that they cared before?
If it is a matter of the industry not knowing what I want, but thinking it does, I'd like to know what exactly gave them the impression that I wanted these games I'm not playing?
If its a matter of the industry not knowing what I want, and not caring about what I want, then I'm wondering exactly why I should care about giving them a non-refundable subscription fee and box price for their offerings, seeing as they don't really care about my satisfaction?
Whatever the answer is, I'm fankly not qualified to say whether or not levelling slower or faster is going to work, or whether the gear needs to be looted or crafted, or instancing, or anything else. Frankly, saying my opinion on these things doesn't make a difference to them. They may already know, but not care. They may already care, but cannot do so. Even if they do not know Beatnik59's opinion, they may think they are already doing what I want, or more likely, not even care. After all, they are the experts, not me.
The most shocking thing though is the thought that it is somehow Finch's problem that people won't group with him, and also, that it is the group's problem to get players other than Finch. To me, that's the provider's problem, and the design's problem. If paying the providers isn't enough to get fulfillment, then there is no reason to pay the provider, when we have entertainment options that can guarantee us fun, without a monthly fee, and without the hassle.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Originally posted by Beatnik59 1) The industry knows what I want, but cannot do it. 2) The industry knows what I want, but doesn't care. 3) The industry doesn't know what I want, but thinks it does. 4) The industry doesn't know what I want, and doesn't care.
This part right here, along with the rest of the post, pretty much hits the nail on the head. I like number 3 the best, because it seems to me that a lot of MMO developers create and change titles they way they think we want to see them (point in fact with SWG). If developers really want to make a great game, they should get most of their input and feedback from the community; the fans. Especially with an MMO built around a popular license; the players are generally the most knowledgable about that particular subject and as such their opinions should be highly valued.
Comments
What do you mean by that? Like 'hype'? As in, "let's take a popular license and make an MMO out of it?"
(Sorry if that sounded cynical, it wasn't intended to be. More of a "what do you mean exactly?")
No prob. What I mean is it seems that developers of the bigger titles are making their games so that they appeal to the common denominator in order to maximize the player base at the expense of creativity and unique gameplay.
Kinda like how McDonalds puts movie merchandise in their happy meals. It does nothing to enhance the food but they know that kids like toys and will patronize the franchise for it. They don't want to risk changing the cheeseburger formula but they want to suck more people in.
Take WoW for example. Players like to get 'stuff', call it greed or whatever. To keep people playing Blizzard has exploited this and made such high level gear available to the hardcore gamer that there is a, IMO, serious imbalance problem with players who cannot afford the same play time.
Basically devs are sitting down and saying," This is profitable industry. Lets do what we can to get as big a piece as we can." Not "Lets break the mold and take the industry in a completely different direction."
I don't play MMOs these days. I'm moving on to things like Sim City, and I'm even cracking out the Playstation 2 again, and going into some of the action and roleplay titles that have come out in the last couple of years. The best thing about not keeping up with what is on PS2, is that you can get games on red label for 50% off or more, and they'll be brand new for you.
Games like the new Oblivion give a ton of creative tools, all of which do not require us to committ to a sub fee. It is a good value, and offers a ton of replayability. One thing I can say about Oblivion is that I'll never run out of content, the "server" is always up, and there is no pressure to grind, twink, or use TS.
I used to play alot, and really enjoy the games. I used to really enjoy playing with others in the MMOs, especially with UO, Star Wars Galaxies, and Seed. I never got the feeling that the people that were in those MMOs put the business of playing get in the way of the play, and the play was very fulfilling.
MMOs used to feel so big, and immersive. Now, they all look small, stale, and about petty things. It reminds me why I left the Cyber Cafe LAN scene for MMOs. There are only so many times you can go "BOOM! Headshot" before it becomes lame.
I haven't purchased a game since December 31, 2005. I'd say I have a rather large collection of them from over the years so there aren't that many games I really feel I need to buy nowadays. If I had the money I'd love to catch up on what I've missed. I'm a big RPG and platformer nerd.
I do understand why Oblivion is so appealing. It removes all of the frustrations that come with MMO's and is a great game that offers a lot. On the other hand however, you can't recreate the things you find in an MMO in a single-player game - community, the experiences, even the drama in-game (and even outside of the game) that you have a laugh at afterwards.
As for your perception of how the gamers mindset has possibly changed or evolved, I see where you're coming from. Yet I've always found people who are playing to have fun while achieving something. There are those who take the game too seriously for my tastes, but I don't allow them to ruin my experience. I stick with people who are playing for the same reasons I am, and I enjoy myself. One of the interesting things about MMO's to me is that so many different mindsets co-exist, whether or not I hate most of them.
There are a million reasons as to why you may not play anymore and I don't know you personally, so I won't assume or guess those reasons to try to persuade you into thinking from my point of view. Hopefully though you'll come across an MMORPG in due time that sparks that interest again.
I turn to you now, father death. I beg of you, please consider you may have been wrong...
-Blind Guardian
Thanks for clearing that up; I had a feeling that's what you were talking about.
It is a huge problem with high level/endgame content. A lot of developers plug the most interesting gameplay and most rewarding content for higher level players only. It makes logical sense when you want your subscribers to continue playing. It's been the formula of success for years.
If only they could realize that innovation equals success as well.
This has been the most well thought out thread by posters since i've been reading mmorpg.com. Fantastic read by the OP. I'm now 25 years old and I've been gaming since I was about 12. I feel as if a major MMORPG has not come out from a company I want to buy from in quite sometime. Games like Roma Victor, Archlord, etc just do not do it for me. I'm currently awaiting Vanguard. I saw someone say "I haven't had the holy crap, this game is fun" feeling in a long time. I concur! I haven't had that feeling in a VERY long time where i'm sitting in my office, somewhere thinking "Can't wait to get home, kick off my shoes, grab a drink and log in". My original game was UO for MMORPGs (Before that it was MUDS). I really think we're about to hit a market that is going to have several big MMORPGs come out in the next year, and then a nice long hiatus of a couple of years before anything else relatively large comes out. It's kind of like your favorite author and books, sometimes it's a year for the book to come out, or maybe four years! But, lets all keep our fingers crossed for this next batch of games!
Cheers,
Ryan
i agree, im also a fan of FPS games... try CSS or Day of Defeat. I used to play halo and halo 2 also those were fun for a while. I am currently MMOless also and it sucks. Hah but im prob the youngest one here so my gaming experience started at around 7... played mario and what not, got AOL and played neopets til i was bout 11 or so went to runescape played that til i was around 14. Played halo til currently and now im stuck on what MMORPG to get due to the low cash flow. I applied to 7 jobs. 0 accepted me. It sucks, but from the feedback im seeing the industry is not quit dry just people have different preferences and opinions. I still have not found a game that im like wow i wana go buy that now. Still waiting, most likely warhammer might get me, i am also starting on courses at my local community college for C++, I will do Java and VB later also.
I'm fully aware that the beginning of the game is slow. I myself quit after the first time I played the trial because I thought the whole game was like that. I of course am not positive yet, but I've begun to think I was wrong. The point in my post was: consider the alternative. In WoW, the most recent MMO I played before EvE, I had a blast from 1-59. But after those first two months, I was left with nothing. Raiding is a joke, and the game I had enjoyed ceases to exist at 60. EvE, from what I've read and can tell, seems to be the opposite of this. That's all I was saying.
However, even though EvE's gameplay in the beginning is relatively insipid, my early inclusion into a corp that suited me has already served to make the early game just as enjoyable as any other MMO's beginning stages. As for the inability to get into a corp early on...
...I can tell you from experience that you're dead wrong. I got into a corp I already enjoy on my second day. This was my biggest mistake when I first played the game: not researching into corps and staying instead with the newbie placeholder-corp. Sure, you can sit in Orgrimmar or Omni HQ or whatever and respond to one of the spam recruiters. Or you can actively seek out the kind of corp/guild/whatever that offers what you want. No one should have to hold your hand.
In response to a six-million SP veteran besting a three-million SP player, well...welcome to the concept of stat-based advancement. Yes, in a 1v1 fight, it's impossible for anything other than sheer stats to determine the outcome in a match-up where stats define the characters. EvE does not feature twitch gameplay. But the same holds true for any other non-twitch MMORPG. The strength of EvE's PvP lies in group conflict, where fleet battles play out like chess matches. Despite my newbness, I and some other newbs, all in newb frigates with newb SP, along with the help of two veteran players, were chasing down and killing player pirate groups near our HQ. Sure, we newbs didn't win the battle by ourselves, but I can assure you our presence made a difference. I'd like to see three level 20s in WoW make any difference to a couple of level 50s. But until we lose our dependency on stats, 1v1s are always going to play out according to the numbers. It's what a game does with the bigger picture that makes for an engaging and rewarding experience.
I'm fully aware that the beginning of the game is slow. I myself quit after the first time I played the trial because I thought the whole game was like that. I of course am not positive yet, but I've begun to think I was wrong. The point in my post was: consider the alternative. In WoW, the most recent MMO I played before EvE, I had a blast from 1-59. But after those first two months, I was left with nothing. Raiding is a joke, and the game I had enjoyed ceases to exist at 60. EvE, from what I've read and can tell, seems to be the opposite of this. That's all I was saying.
However, even though EvE's gameplay in the beginning is relatively insipid, my early inclusion into a corp that suited me has already served to make the early game just as enjoyable as any other MMO's beginning stages. As for the inability to get into a corp early on...
...I can tell you from experience that you're dead wrong. I got into a corp I already enjoy on my second day. This was my biggest mistake when I first played the game: not researching into corps and staying instead with the newbie placeholder-corp. Sure, you can sit in Orgrimmar or Omni HQ or whatever and respond to one of the spam recruiters. Or you can actively seek out the kind of corp/guild/whatever that offers what you want. No one should have to hold your hand.
In response to a six-million SP veteran besting a three-million SP player, well...welcome to the concept of stat-based advancement. Yes, in a 1v1 fight, it's impossible for anything other than sheer stats to determine the outcome in a match-up where stats define the characters. EvE does not feature twitch gameplay. But the same holds true for any other non-twitch MMORPG. The strength of EvE's PvP lies in group conflict, where fleet battles play out like chess matches. Despite my newbness, I and some other newbs, all in newb frigates with newb SP, along with the help of two veteran players, were chasing down and killing player pirate groups near our HQ. Sure, we newbs didn't win the battle by ourselves, but I can assure you our presence made a difference. I'd like to see three level 20s in WoW make any difference to a couple of level 50s. But until we lose our dependency on stats, 1v1s are always going to play out according to the numbers. It's what a game does with the bigger picture that makes for an engaging and rewarding experience.
some day i'll tell the story of how 5 of our level 39 twinks owned the living hell out of twice thier number of level 60s in STV (good times all around
on the original subject, i'll have to agree the industry is at a point where we haven't really seen anything new for the past year or so. heck, i've been dying for a new Sci-fi MMO since i left AO 2 years ago (AI, nuff said). but on the idea of new, ground breaking directions to take the industry to, there's very little incentive for developers and companies to do so.
look at DDO if you want an example, DDO had all the signs of making it big, then it made 2 serious blunders (in my own opinion offcourse), the first was not taking advantage of an already established D&D setting (if it was set in the Forgotten realms, Dragon lance or even grayhawk or darksun setting, it would have had ALOT more subscriptions) and the second one was the playstyle which was group focused and instance focused to the extent a solo player had almost nothing to do (a mistake they have tried to remedy with a single player playability patch, that came too late).
so there you have it, an example of a game that tried to take it in a somewhat different direction (Wholly instanced, group forcing) and flopped, horribly. with such an example (and some others i'm too lazy to remember at the moment) is it any wonder gaming companies push to the EQ/WoW mold?
oh yeah, can't leave without poking EVE some (i do ahve an account i play maybe 4-5hrs/week), my dissapointment with eve is that most of the interesting playstyle in it is in 0.0 space, and 0.0 space for the most part is a horrible zerg fest, gate camping, and mega corps filled to the brim with elitist jerks (or at least this has been my experience, i've been reduced back to poverty and a single cruiser more times then i can count being repeatadly blown out of space by swarms of well equiped corps more times then i can count
)
MMORPG addict since 1995.
I've played almost everything you've played... and felt the same way for the most part. Except when I found Lineage 2, at first I felt the same way about Lineage2 as well, but after one long year, I have been able to really dig myself into the L2 community and politics... amazing... wars, politics, controling territories, will drive you to play. I think you need a drive to play MMOs man. If you skim to every MMORPG, you'll end up hating ALL of them because everything boils down to the same old pattern/concept. Dig into a game and stick with it (at the same time be responsible in RL :P). RL>GameLife.
Ventrilo/Teamspeak with your clan helps alot too. Helps build relationships.
@OP : Don´t worry, you´re not the worst MMO-gamer. I have NEVER managed lvl 8 in EQ because I was bored to death by the time I got to lvl 7. God, did I hate EQ
My own taste is UO pre-powerhour, pre-Renaissance. I loved not having to look at my skilltab, guildlife, hunting with peeps, casual RPing and the occasional PK- bashing. Most of all I liked the "pioneer"-feeling that was spread out allover the game. UO wasn´t easily accessible and it didn´t intend to be, either. In a way, it was the most elitist game ever to hit the shelves, but more from an RPing perspective. The game provided the landmass, things to kill, most of them rather dangerous, tons of tradeskills, a player-based economy and that was that. No quests, no levels, nothing. We had to make up our own fun and we did. Some went PK, some went PKK , others did hi-end crafting, many just fooled around and many roleplayed. Others just wondered around for the sightseeing or spent lots of time looking at a black&white world and saying "OOoOoOoOooo". I did all of that (except PK-ing
Then came EQ and everything became just a bit easier. Verant had the ingenious idea to put a carrot infront of the gamer´s nose and it worked. Levelgrinding and ubeR-l00t as a goal in playing. Now, personally, I hate EQ, but I won´t bash it. It´s a milestone and it created a school of gaming that is -even today- the most influencial. What I WILL bash, is the inability of other game publishers to escape from EQs tired -and tiring- grinding concept. Ok, it sells, but that doesn´t mean that a different approach wouldn´t. More playing, less working, the whole grinding/equipment hunting thing is like just another job. And it creates this "beat-the-game"-mentality which I find totally inappropriate (sp?) for MMORPGs.
But hell, I´m ranting, I know
I'm fully aware that the beginning of the game is slow. I myself quit after the first time I played the trial because I thought the whole game was like that. I of course am not positive yet, but I've begun to think I was wrong. The point in my post was: consider the alternative. In WoW, the most recent MMO I played before EvE, I had a blast from 1-59. But after those first two months, I was left with nothing. Raiding is a joke, and the game I had enjoyed ceases to exist at 60. EvE, from what I've read and can tell, seems to be the opposite of this. That's all I was saying.
However, even though EvE's gameplay in the beginning is relatively insipid, my early inclusion into a corp that suited me has already served to make the early game just as enjoyable as any other MMO's beginning stages. As for the inability to get into a corp early on...
...I can tell you from experience that you're dead wrong. I got into a corp I already enjoy on my second day. This was my biggest mistake when I first played the game: not researching into corps and staying instead with the newbie placeholder-corp. Sure, you can sit in Orgrimmar or Omni HQ or whatever and respond to one of the spam recruiters. Or you can actively seek out the kind of corp/guild/whatever that offers what you want. No one should have to hold your hand.
In response to a six-million SP veteran besting a three-million SP player, well...welcome to the concept of stat-based advancement. Yes, in a 1v1 fight, it's impossible for anything other than sheer stats to determine the outcome in a match-up where stats define the characters. EvE does not feature twitch gameplay. But the same holds true for any other non-twitch MMORPG. The strength of EvE's PvP lies in group conflict, where fleet battles play out like chess matches. Despite my newbness, I and some other newbs, all in newb frigates with newb SP, along with the help of two veteran players, were chasing down and killing player pirate groups near our HQ. Sure, we newbs didn't win the battle by ourselves, but I can assure you our presence made a difference. I'd like to see three level 20s in WoW make any difference to a couple of level 50s. But until we lose our dependency on stats, 1v1s are always going to play out according to the numbers. It's what a game does with the bigger picture that makes for an engaging and rewarding experience.
Eve is an ok game but as I said it breaks no molds. The core game is still grind especially if you want to buy anything. How do you think everything ends up on the market for you to buy and outfit your ship ? Someone had to go mine the material and or produce the said weapons and ships ? Whether its your corp doing it or not it still has to happen. Not that this is bad but my point is that people say the game is earth shattering and ground breaking. It simply is not and suffers from the same issues and design flaws as other games.
As far as a corp yes its utterly important you find one that fits you quickly. But all the ones I ran into where either ultra casual and weren't in 0.0 space or they were in 0,0 space and wouldn't even look at me till I could pilot a BS effectively.
different setting same problems.
When I read your post, an ancient greek prophecy came to my mind, which said, that the end of the world was near, when young people started to be like old granpas and grannys. So given your style the end is nigh.
Seriously, I try not to bring age as an argument, but seeing you know so many games and have gathered so much MMO experience, I dont know if I should admire or shudder. I play a lot of computer games, and I did so for 20 years. But when I was 12 or 15... well I was OUTSIDE. Sorry for being an old fart who seems to lecture, but I had to say this.
In another way, you are basically right. Games lack creativity now, in solo games and MMOs. I recall really great games 10 - 15 years ago, games which I still can quote from cutscenes, whose intros and extros gave me teary eyes and whose characters and storyline I will always remember. Now... most is hollow hogwash. Most games just lost the magic. Anyone recalls the end of the old Ultima games? Ultima 4 - 7? They were simple slideshows, nothing that could compete with anything, but they had magic, they had caught me! The places, the characters, the things inside... its not a matter of graphics, its a vision, the will and ability to tell stories, which is an art in itself and seems to be lost to most games. I always feel so sorry for all those young players, who never have seen those great games of the 80ies and early 90ies. Hits like Day of the Tentacle, Lands of Lore, the old Might and Magics and Wizardrys, the Ultimas... too many to name them. THEY had magic.
It seems lost to most companies, and I can't really say why they only make very average mass products.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Actually there are games that 'break the mold' and try new things. You guys just aren't looking at them.
Take Auto Assault for example. It did some new things, tried to do something different. Eve is different. Space Cowboy is different. CoX is different. Guild Wars is different. DDO is a little different. Face of Mankind is different. Matrix Online is different. Planetside is different. Second Life is different. WW2Online is different.
I mean really, how much variety do you want? There are any number of games out there that do things vastly different from WoW, and all I did was look at the list of forums to the left.
The problem isn't the market, it's the players. See if we really wanted innovation above all else, we'd be playing games like AutoAssault and Planetside and Second Life, but those games aren't that popular. People won't play a game just because it's got new feature X if the rest of the game isn't that great. The game as a whole has to be great as opposed to just one new thing. That's what WoW did, it's a game that's great in every area, and that's why it's so popular.
The time where companies churned out MMOs left right and center each with a different new feature is over. The games didn't do well so people stopped trying to sell their MMO on some new 'innovative' feature. You also can't just reach into a hat and pull out something "new and innovative" that will work. The genre has alot of things that work already, and there isn't really some feature that MMOs are all missing.
So what you're asking for really isn't feasible.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Darkfall the only real game (if it comes out)
Hopefully WoW's attraction of millions to the market will be a good thing in the long run. Just maybe some developers will feel that the MMO pie is so big that even a small piece is worth making something different.
By the way Blurr, great post. ('nuff said)
To Finch, you are well-spoken for 18, so I'm going to show you respect by focusing on where I disagree.
1. Firstly, the "big corporations" bit seems like a tacked-on cliche. Maybe you have a point, maybe you don't but if so it hasn't really been made. Producers only make what customers want, and being large makes finding enough customers to be profitable harder, not easier. In this industry, like most, there are large and small producers and neither is immune from making lousy games.
However, if we do want to generalize, industries cycle between two development approaches. We tend to call these "evolution" vs. "revolution". A new idea is created and shows promise. Then it gets fleshed out and distilled with limited variations until a "standard" is reached. Both steps are completely necessary - without innovation everything is just a clone of everything else. Without polish, you get good ideas done badly.
It tends to be that small companies innovate and large companies polish. This makes sense from both standpoints - a small organization can't have a 50-person art team creating an elaborate world - if they could they wouldn't be small. A large business could theoretically fund a lot of small, divergent, untested ideas - but it's very dangerous to the brand. (I'm not sure how clear that is so I can explain more if you like.)
So there could hypothetically be a "dry" time in the industry if there isn't much risk-taking right now. It's possible. But I don't know if it's true. CCP, Cryptic, and I would say Nevrax have all taken some interesting risks. (The second may have backed off on that a bit, time will tell if they learned from it.) Maybe the early adopters in their games are on to something, or maybe they're niche and the next big thing hasn't come yet. Time will tell. But the lesson is that pleasant surprises come from where they're not expected. (Which is why I'm not holding my breath on Vanguard, personally.)
Of course we're merely speaking in the abstract. See point 3 below.
2. It seems you're drawing a conclusion about the makers but the arguments are leveled at the players. Certainly our MMOGs have plenty of rude, exclusionary control freaks. But you know the world has a lot of those. MMOs being what they are I can't expect not to find those people online. Truth be told, you and I are both well-spoken, reasonable people but we might not get along at all online.
For example, you might decide that I am too focused on results to the exclusion of personal variances (and fun). I might equally conclude that you are shrugging off your responsibilities on other members of the group by not being the best that you can. There's nothing wrong with either of these viewpoints, or either of us. But you have to conclude that they don't mix well - at least not with any system I've found yet.
(Lately I've taken to summarizing this dichotomy with the hypothetical: What's more rude, for a group to start without someone or for one person to keep the group waiting? Specifics vary based on the length of the wait and other things but for the most part people divide pretty well on that.)
Of course the fact that non everyone is one way or the other means there are enough of the "right" people for any of us to group with. We just need to find them.
3. The biggest issue I have with your post though, Finch, is that I wish you were more specific on what you want. For all you know, there are several game designers reading this thread and it's clear that you're not happy with the current state but not what they should do differently to include you. Now that's no crime - it's not the customers' job to design products, only to render judgement on the completed ones. But for a commentary on the industry, I'd like to see what specifically you'd want done differently.
Slower/faster leveling? More/less gear relevancy? More/fewer instances? Larger/smaller group sizes? And it doesn't have to be a completed idea. But something concrete to work, even just a starting point, with would definitely make for a stronger argument.
Currently playing:
DC Universe
Planetside 2
Magic Online
Simunomics, the Massive Multiplayer Economic Simulation Game. Play for free.
- Next to NONE gear relevancy. Enough gear to guarantee many different gamestyles, but the no great differences in gearpower, or it becomes a lootfest. And good gear should mostly be player-made, please.
- NO groups at all. I don´t need a group window or function or chat to go out with friends.
Additionaly:
- NO global chat, NO /tell or /whisper or /yell. An overhead/local chat does it.
- NO "must-have" items that require camping or grinding.
- NO pvp at all, OR totally free pvp. In other words: either a world of danger, or just pve.
- NO global map.
- Interactive environment.
- NO BLOODY INSTANCES
- GMs that actually ban griefers, exploiters and other scum.
And while we´re at it:
- Peace and prosperity for everyone on earth.
- My very own alliance space cruiser.
If you want games to be immersive and moldbreaking rather than a game of positions in a football match, why not starting with the question "how would game worlds work if they were like in 'reality'"?
Take the fantasy genre.
* Is it probable that in a world of dragons, elves and orcs, a fighter would get radically better at fighting through gaining levels (so that people who were 5 levels below him would stand absolutely no chance) just because he had killed a lot of spiders?
If this is not so, what would be the real case? I'd say that in the real case a 'level 50' character would be downed by a huge spear thrust through his chest just, or almost just as easily as a 'level 1' character. (The actual difference would rather be how likely a spear would get through to do this, however in no way would the 'level 50' character ever be invulnerable, yet at the same time mincemeat when he met a 'level 60' player.)
By the same token, how come a fierce red dragon is hundred percent deadly to a novice player, but a child's play to a 'level 60' character? Wouldn't a dragon's fire burn both of them just as fatally?
* Is it real to think that medieval type fighting was a matter of having two tanks, one spellcaster, a fetcher and something else and limits to how many can be present in a group?
If not, how was real medieval type fighting carried out?
* Is it realistic to believe that different weapons have astronomical differences in ability, just because they were crafted by higher level crafters or have magic properties? Weapons in MOORPG's sure have come a long way from the difference between a normal longsword and a +5 magic longsword, which was the best you could get in Dungeons and Dragons. Now it's more like +0 and +300.
Isn't it rather that in real warfare, different types of weapons performed different functions. The difference between a broadsword and a halberd lay not in intrinsic deadliness, but in what foe was being fought and how (foot or mounted opponents, individually or deployed in great masses of infantry etc).
* How real, or indeed fun, does it feel to fight opponents who really are just cardbords that will swing up again as soon as you've left the area, and the slaying of which have absolutely no impact on the world? How realistic is it that you can kill off the kobolds one by one, while their pals stand idly by 20 meters away? Indeed, what are they doing just standing around in that place to begin with?
How would real intelligent opponents react? How would actual hunting for wild animals differ from hand to hand fighting with orcs?
* What is XP really, and must XP above all be connected to killing things? Wouldn't for example time spent in fighting be about as important if it came to real combat experience?
I could go on a long time like this. Bottomline: the genre suffers because so many players take a mass of totally arbitrary notions for granted that have none, or next to no relevance in a real world, or indeed in the world of a fantasy novel.
Oh, and by the way. The level grind in a combat centered game and all its competitiveness and exclusivism is more or less unavoidable as long as you insist on a game where no one ever dies combined with a levelling ladder.
Regardless of what game it is, that is the same thought and experience I use when approaching any game.
It's what keeps me going
Current Games:
Amarsir:
I'm not sure how much more specific you want Finch to be. He seemed pretty clear to me, and the rest of us who agree with him. Perhaps it is the game designers and publishers that are out of touch, or maybe they are in touch, and simply do not see Finch and myself as people worth anything to them?
Because as much as you seem to try and argue that Finch's post is unclear, I find that your post, and the intent behind it, is far more unclear, and rather condecending.
To start, I'm not sure that I really care how the MMO business works. Whether or not the big business polishes, evolves, stages a revolution, or innovates is of little concern to me. To me, it is their job to run the business and design end the way they have to, and its the job of Finch and I to have fun. If their job to make games helps me to do my job of amusing myself, then we can do business together, and there is no problem.
But there is a problem, because I'm not amused by MMOs these days. I used to be, so it is not like I cannot be amused by an MMO. In fact, I'd very much enjoy an MMO. So it seems to me that the reasons I can't find one may have to do with the following:
1) The industry knows what I want, but cannot do it.
2) The industry knows what I want, but doesn't care.
3) The industry doesn't know what I want, but thinks it does.
4) The industry doesn't know what I want, and doesn't care.
Now if it is a matter of knowing what I want, but unable to do it, then I'd like to know why they can't do it, given that they were able to do it before?
If it is a matter of knowing what I want, but not caring, then I'd like to know why they don't care about what I want now, given that they cared before?
If it is a matter of the industry not knowing what I want, but thinking it does, I'd like to know what exactly gave them the impression that I wanted these games I'm not playing?
If its a matter of the industry not knowing what I want, and not caring about what I want, then I'm wondering exactly why I should care about giving them a non-refundable subscription fee and box price for their offerings, seeing as they don't really care about my satisfaction?
Whatever the answer is, I'm fankly not qualified to say whether or not levelling slower or faster is going to work, or whether the gear needs to be looted or crafted, or instancing, or anything else. Frankly, saying my opinion on these things doesn't make a difference to them. They may already know, but not care. They may already care, but cannot do so. Even if they do not know Beatnik59's opinion, they may think they are already doing what I want, or more likely, not even care. After all, they are the experts, not me.
The most shocking thing though is the thought that it is somehow Finch's problem that people won't group with him, and also, that it is the group's problem to get players other than Finch. To me, that's the provider's problem, and the design's problem. If paying the providers isn't enough to get fulfillment, then there is no reason to pay the provider, when we have entertainment options that can guarantee us fun, without a monthly fee, and without the hassle.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE