Originally posted by Infliction Gotta agree with modjoe here. And I've seen 2 relatives die slow painful deaths, so I actually have a realistic viewpoint on this. Most of you haven't seen a loved one die from a degenerating disease, and even less of you are doctors. Not that I'm saying its bad you haven't seen this, but your viewpoints on the subject aren't exactly realistic. I watched my dad die from hepatitis c for 5 years. In those 5 years, he had a liver transplant, which ruined his immune system, which caused a debilitating back problem which put him in a wheelchair, and on his deathbed he was paralyzed from the neck down. His choice was to die. Fortunately for him all he had to do was refuse a certain heart medication.
Also I watched my grandmother die from lung cancer. During her last few months alive she had to be bathed and wiped, among other things, by loved ones, and she had no idea who she was. Its no fun to see someone you've known and loved your whole life look at you and have no clue who you are.
No, watching my grandmother speak Polish for 4 years because Alzheimer's made her revert back to her childhood is only humane. No wait, I guess being hooked up to a cathater and having to "eat" water because you choke on fluids constitutues living. How is euthanasia bad in this situation? I'd like to hear it.
The older you get, the closer you are to death the more each second becomes precious.
While I have every sympathy for the family of the dying, aged or dieseased, your lack of patience is not an excuse to kill.
20 Years ago my father made me agree that if ever he got that way I would kill him. I agreed. My mother asked the same.
My mothers mother, is clinging on to life like there is no tomorrow, she is a consistent burden on her children. My mother still wishes for euthanasia. When she talks about it, it isn't herself she is thinking about, it is her mother.
My father on the other hand no longer wants it. Things have changed, it is no longer his mother he is thinking about, it is himself. He hasn't got long left and he doesn't want to go.
.
The moral of this story is, things change. A person who wants suicide on Monday might not want it on Tuesday. If you killed him on Monday, you murdered him, plain and simple. It's not your decision to make. It's not any doctors decision to make.
Suicides don't hurt the one who dies half as much as they hurt the surrounding families. I've known 8 suicides and a few manic depressives, when I was a teen and much stupider in a much less agreable lifestyle, I tried it myself and failed. (Dur). I'm glad I failed, becuase since then I have seen 8 grieving families, and 8 greiving sets of friends at 8 funerals. (Not to mention within a year or two my life took a marked step for better and has been nothing short of fantastic fun ever since).
Damn right Suicide is illegal. It's not just you that gets hurt. It's not the suicidee's decision to make either.
From the funerals I've attended I have this opinion, for the family suicide is the worst death, followed by murder and then drug abuse. Old age or accidental death are much easier to come to terms with. If you take your own life, everyone who loved you will blame themselves. They wil never know for sure that they didn't fail you. That they couldn't have done something to make it better and didn't. For the rest of their lives.
Originally posted by baff The older you get, the closer you are to death the more each second becomes precious. While I have every sympathy for the family of the dying, aged or dieseased, your lack of patience is not an excuse to kill. 20 Years ago my father made me agree that if ever he got that way I would kill him. I agreed. My mother asked the same. My mothers mother, is clinging on to life like there is no tomorrow, she is a consistent burden on her children. My mother still wishes for euthanasia. When she talks about it, it isn't herself she is thinking about, it is her mother. My father on the other hand no longer wants it. Things have changed, it is no longer his mother he is thinking about, it is himself. He hasn't got long left and he doesn't want to go. . The moral of this story is, things change. A person who wants suicide on Monday might not want it on Tuesday. If you killed him on Monday, you murdered him, plain and simple. It's not your decision to make. It's not any doctors decision to make. Suicides don't hurt the one who dies half as much as they hurt the surrounding families. I've known 8 suicides and a few manic depressives, when I was a teen and much stupider in a much less agreable lifestyle, I tried it myself and failed. (Dur). I'm glad I failed, becuase since then I have seen 8 grieving families, and 8 greiving sets of friends at 8 funerals. (Not to mention within a year or two my life took a marked step for better and has been nothing short of fantastic fun ever since). Damn right Suicide is illegal. It's not just you that gets hurt. It's not the suicidee's decision to make either. From the funerals I've attended I have this opinion, for the family suicide is the worst death, followed by murder and then drug abuse. Old age or accidental death are much easier to come to terms with. If you take your own life, everyone who loved you will blame themselves. They wil never know for sure that they didn't fail you. That they couldn't have done something to make it better and didn't. For the rest of their lives.
Wrong. Suicide because someone just feels unloved or otherwise unhappy with life is one thing, and I can agree with you there, but suicide because you're dying a slow painful death with no hope of recovery is a whole other beast. When my dad died after all his suffering I was sad that he was gone of course, he was pretty much my best friend, but I was also happy his suffering was gone.
Originally posted by modjoe86 What if they called upon a doctor who had no moral aftershock from a euthanasia? I know I would feel better about myself if I put someone out of their misery...so how is that imposing on my conscience?
Taking a life always has an affect on people. If someone isn't affected by killing someone else then that person is a monster.
Even in self defense taking another human life always rocks us to the core.. We become scared, sorry, regretful, nervous. It changes someone on the inside once they've killed.
And if someone doesn't feel that quaking in their spirit? then that person has no compassion for human life. And that person shouldn't be a doctor. Because the sole responsibility of a doctor is to tend to human life.
What's your Wu Name? Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader "Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.." <i>ME<i>
Originally posted by methane47 Originally posted by modjoe86 What if they called upon a doctor who had no moral aftershock from a euthanasia? I know I would feel better about myself if I put someone out of their misery...so how is that imposing on my conscience?
Taking a life always has an affect on people. If someone isn't affected by killing someone else then that person is a monster.
Even in self defense taking another human life always rocks us to the core.. We become scared, sorry, regretful, nervous. It changes someone on the inside once they've killed.
And if someone doesn't feel that quaking in their spirit? then that person has no compassion for human life. And that person shouldn't be a doctor. Because the sole responsibility of a doctor is to tend to human life.
And forcing someone to live through another few months of agonizing pain with no hope of recovery IS human compasison? You clearly have never seen this kind of suffering before. This is a good thing, but it doesn't help your argument on the subject one bit.
I saw on (UK tv) that on this side the christian faith can control the goverment and the laws in america if republicans stay in power. I find this to be very wrong and bad mainly because life is meant to be about freewill. The goverment should be neutral, what about people who don't believe? Why should they be forced into views they don't feel are right?
For example;
Legal lethal injection in hospitals.
For people who are sooo ill they suffer a slow and painful death and just don't want to live anymore, say like if your in sooo much pain and slowly dying. The law should allow you to have the option to go to a hospital and you have a right to die. In the UK the goverment was going to make this legal, but nooooooooo the christians protested and the church had the power to stop it.
^ This really pissed me off and i thought hang on a min? Why should i be forced into something i don't believe. Christians are fine to tell you what to do but anyone elses views are wrong. I mean God isn't even real and they live in a deluded world.
GRRRR sooo angry
You're not alone.
I think the person should be able to choose wether or not they wish to die. Especially if they are suffering and are going to die anyways. I don't see how people can allow others to suffer that way, it's beyond me. -.-
I'm not sure how it is in the U.S, but I don't think it's legal here either, when it should be.
And yes your right, the church has way to much power and shove it where ever and whenever they can.
-sighs- Oh well, we wont live past 500 years anyways.
It is in Oregon, though John Ashcroft tried like hell to fight it.
You guys are very misguided to say the least. I will take Christianity to secularism any day. You complain Christians are forcing their views and laws onto you. Murder is murder simple be it at a gun point or a needle still murder. Now when you open the can of worms on this, who is going to complain that homeless or drug addicts are put out of their misery? I bet not you, cause after all they were suffering and had to be put out of their misery. Look at the current state of events of Chinese prisoners. Did you know they are being taken out of their misery so some rich guy can have a liver? The abuse that will follow will be truly tragic.
Lets look at the state of affairs in the US. We have been following a secular society for years and soon will be reaping all the rewards of such a misguided path. We have children having children at 13 years of age and younger. We no longer punish people who break the law we say they were abused so the four year kid he molested must of done something to his attacker we make excuses for bad behaviour. He then coomits the same crime making another victim who in turn later in life has a very good chance of repeating this sick behaviour only this time he will be the perp. We have mass fraud growing in America and the ones committing the crimes are excused because they have had a tough life so they get a pass. Try cheating on your taxes and see how long you stay free not long. We have double standards in our laws because if a man has intercourse with an underaged person he goes to jail. I f a woman does the exact same thing we make excuses for her. How many women have put their kids out of their misery lately? Too many to list thats for sure. When you devalue life it affects all behaviour in the society. How many kids in the last ten years decided to put their classsmates out of their misery? Way too many to list. Is crime going up or down?
When you take god and all that he teaches out of a society it starts to feed upon itself. Do you let your kids run free to play anymore or are you worried that a sicko will kidnap them? I remember playing in parks with no worries to my safety. Can you let your kids do that now?
I could go on and on but you get the point, I hope. I live in pain everyday. So I guess by your standards I should be put out of my misery. No I accept my pain I have learned to deal with it. The human body is truly amazing and yes you get used to it. If your family member is in pain ask for medication to ease it. Take them to a pain specialist so they can get on the right pain meds. I know about pain count all your digits from your hands to your feet and add 4 to it. Thats how many surgeries I have had in the past ten years. Now if your family member wants death get them counseling and try to give them reasons for staying alive. Suicide is wrong you die a second time for good. Do what Darwin said " It is better to believe in something, (an afterlife with god) than nothing at all."
I choose life not death no matter how much I hurt it is not my right to throw away gods gift of life. Nor do I have the right to murder my family members just because I perceive no value in their life or I think they are in misery. The funny thing about pain is that the pain is not the worse part, its the lack of sleep and what that does to your thinking process and body. When you are making this judgement of death for your family member try to take yourself out of the picture. Just because YOU do not or would not want to live like that does not mean you should murder them and that is what it is. Remember they are tired and may not be thinking clearly when they ask for death. I know I have been there myself and not the spectator who thinks they knew what is right you have no idea what is going on leave it to the doctors to decide not you in your emotional state.
Originally posted by Ankua You guys are very misguided to say the least. I will take Christianity to secularism any day. You complain Christians are forcing their views and laws onto you. Murder is murder simple be it at a gun point or a needle still murder. Now when you open the can of worms on this, who is going to complain that homeless or drug addicts are put out of their misery? I bet not you, cause after all they were suffering and had to be put out of their misery. Look at the current state of events of Chinese prisoners. Did you know they are being taken out of their misery so some rich guy can have a liver? The abuse that will follow will be truly tragic. Lets look at the state of affairs in the US. We have been following a secular society for years and soon will be reaping all the rewards of such a misguided path. We have children having children at 13 years of age and younger. We no longer punish people who break the law we say they were abused so the four year kid he molested must of done something to his attacker we make excuses for bad behaviour. He then coomits the same crime making another victim who in turn later in life has a very good chance of repeating this sick behaviour only this time he will be the perp. We have mass fraud growing in America and the ones committing the crimes are excused because they have had a tough life so they get a pass. Try cheating on your taxes and see how long you stay free not long. We have double standards in our laws because if a man has intercourse with an underaged person he goes to jail. I f a woman does the exact same thing we make excuses for her. How many women have put their kids out of their misery lately? Too many to list thats for sure. When you devalue life it affects all behaviour in the society. How many kids in the last ten years decided to put their classsmates out of their misery? Way too many to list. Is crime going up or down? When you take god and all that he teaches out of a society it starts to feed upon itself. Do you let your kids run free to play anymore or are you worried that a sicko will kidnap them? I remember playing in parks with no worries to my safety. Can you let your kids do that now? I could go on and on but you get the point, I hope. I live in pain everyday. So I guess by your standards I should be put out of my misery. No I accept my pain I have learned to deal with it. The human body is truly amazing and yes you get used to it. If your family member is in pain ask for medication to ease it. Take them to a pain specialist so they can get on the right pain meds. I know about pain count all your digits from your hands to your feet and add 4 to it. Thats how many surgeries I have had in the past ten years. Now if your family member wants death get them counseling and try to give them reasons for staying alive. Suicide is wrong you die a second time for good. Do what Darwin said " It is better to believe in something, (an afterlife with god) than nothing at all." I choose life not death no matter how much I hurt it is not my right to throw away gods gift of life. Nor do I have the right to murder my family members just because I perceive no value in their life or I think they are in misery. The funny thing about pain is that the pain is not the worse part, its the lack of sleep and what that does to your thinking process and body. When you are making this judgement of death for your family member try to take yourself out of the picture. Just because YOU do not or would not want to live like that does not mean you should murder them and that is what it is. Remember they are tired and may not be thinking clearly when they ask for death. I know I have been there myself and not the spectator who thinks they knew what is right you have no idea what is going on leave it to the doctors to decide not you in your emotional state.
People like you make me sick. I can't think of a nicer way to put that. You honestly think that without religion there would be no common sense? That's absurd. And your definition of murder needs some correction. Its not murder if the person whose live is being taken gives consent. And we aren't just talking about normal pain here. We're talking life ending illnesses with no hope or chance of recovery, and nothing left in the rest of their lives but agonizing pain. Please take your arrogant evangalism somewhere else.
Originally posted by Infliction People like you make me sick. I can't think of a nicer way to put that. You honestly think that without religion there would be no common sense? That's absurd. And your definition of murder needs some correction. Its not murder if the person whose live is being taken gives consent. And we aren't just talking about normal pain here. We're talking life ending illnesses with no hope or chance of recovery, and nothing left in the rest of their lives but agonizing pain. Please take your arrogant evangalism somewhere else.
There is no such a thing as "common sense" - At least in your sense of the word - It is social norms instilled in us as we are nurtured by our modern enviroment.
I would say that the only true common sense we as humans share is the instinct for survival, but ironically many a post so far has shown that even that amount of "common sense" is lacking.
Things like murder, and morals in particular are not common sense but abstract ideologies.
As for your definition of murder, it isn't muder, if it's legal. It's illegal to "mercy kill" someone in the States, and it will be treated as murder. Look it up in the dictionary, doesn't get any clearer.
Ok Think about the religion u speek of >>>>? It was created for Jewish ( HEBREWS) and is aobut hebrewsa thier one god ( the father son and holly gosst which is one but three ) is hebrew biased ( which means is for hebrews by hebrews )
ok in ur views of church that belives in hoplly bible are non jews and non hebrews ( both the same yet one si religion and the other is race jew= religion, hebrew= race)
when people are misslead thinking that thsi ONE GOD is thier savior or si it jesus that si the savur ohh wait they are the same try to controll the world they are starting what the bible si warning agianst a one world goverment that tells its people what, where and when they can shit, breath, fuck, and DIE which is wrong Japanese peopel warriors teh samuri took thier own lifes when a dishonor had occored....
thsi law is wrong and if a church can tell the goverments of today what they can do when they can do it and where it si to be doen is doing what they preach that the ANTI-Crist is all about ??
well i say this when they take the hebrew language and fuck ti up so bad that satan is a person or being rather than a adverseary and the world eats ti up like somne fucking retard then they can controll life and rule what goes around in our lifes
shit they mad gambling illegal over the inter net because the jews and AMERICAN goverment could not benifit from the online gammbling seperate CHURCH and state or u will end up with a one world goverment
if any one reads thier bible and goes to church dont they say every one needs crist ?? if every one belived in crist wouldnt that mean a one world goverment as in every one in controll would follow crist and getalong and b under the controll of one king the god or jesus or holly gost
i knwo i probley cant spell and if it bothers u make a law aobut it any way look ot ur heritage and find out what ur religion belifes are then follow what seems right to u a religion that was made for hebrews about hebrews or ur own religion made by ur people for ur people
but if ti works dont fix it but when i am told i cant die becvause it si not christen well i am of a warrior race i am asatru and i will fight for what i belive in
Why bother finding a cure for these diseases then, lets just mercy kill them all. Then slowly the human race will die off because instead of trying to beat a debilitating disease we just kill ourselves.
In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.
Originally posted by Infliction People like you make me sick. I can't think of a nicer way to put that. You honestly think that without religion there would be no common sense? That's absurd. And your definition of murder needs some correction. Its not murder if the person whose live is being taken gives consent. And we aren't just talking about normal pain here. We're talking life ending illnesses with no hope or chance of recovery, and nothing left in the rest of their lives but agonizing pain. Please take your arrogant evangalism somewhere else.
Well, legally it is murder, so you can't really disagree with him there. Whether or not you believe it to be moral is something else entirely. I suppose the problems I have with these topics, and this is to no one in particular, is that people try to turn an inherently moral issue, into a religious one. Religious people aren't the only one's who have problems with the thought of doctors performing euthanasia on patients. Same thing with abortion and stem-cell research. Honestly, if Christians actually DO believe these things to be murder, and suddenly quit caring and said, "Okay, do what you want", THEN I'll be scared for humanity. The moment people stop caring about murder is the second somethings wrong. The question is simply what your definition of murder is. You don't consider euthanasia murder. Some people do. That's all it really boils down too.
Originally posted by JoHosephat Originally posted by Infliction People like you make me sick. I can't think of a nicer way to put that. You honestly think that without religion there would be no common sense? That's absurd. And your definition of murder needs some correction. Its not murder if the person whose live is being taken gives consent. And we aren't just talking about normal pain here. We're talking life ending illnesses with no hope or chance of recovery, and nothing left in the rest of their lives but agonizing pain. Please take your arrogant evangalism somewhere else.
There is no such a thing as "common sense" - At least in your sense of the word - It is social norms instilled in us as we are nurtured by our modern enviroment.
I would say that the only true common sense we as humans share is the instinct for survival, but ironically many a post so far has shown that even that amount of "common sense" is lacking.
Things like murder, and morals in particular are not common sense but abstract ideologies.
As for your definition of murder, it isn't muder, if it's legal. It's illegal to "mercy kill" someone in the States, and it will be treated as murder. Look it up in the dictionary, doesn't get any clearer.
Murder and morals are not abstract ideals. If religion never existed, I would still feel guilty about, say, raping a girl. I don't need religion to tell me that is wrong...I know that is wrong. Same goes with murder, theft, etc. I don't need "God" telling me these things are wrong, I know that as a human being.
Originally posted by Infliction People like you make me sick. I can't think of a nicer way to put that. You honestly think that without religion there would be no common sense? That's absurd. And your definition of murder needs some correction. Its not murder if the person whose live is being taken gives consent. And we aren't just talking about normal pain here. We're talking life ending illnesses with no hope or chance of recovery, and nothing left in the rest of their lives but agonizing pain. Please take your arrogant evangalism somewhere else.
There is no such a thing as "common sense" - At least in your sense of the word - It is social norms instilled in us as we are nurtured by our modern enviroment.
I would say that the only true common sense we as humans share is the instinct for survival, but ironically many a post so far has shown that even that amount of "common sense" is lacking.
Things like murder, and morals in particular are not common sense but abstract ideologies.
As for your definition of murder, it isn't muder, if it's legal. It's illegal to "mercy kill" someone in the States, and it will be treated as murder. Look it up in the dictionary, doesn't get any clearer.
that is wrong. Same goes with murder, theft, etc. I don't need "God" telling me these things are wrong, I know that as a human being.
Murder and morals are not abstract ideals. If religion never existed, I would still feel guilty about, say, raping a girl. I don't need religion to tell me that is wrong...I know
I feel the same way Modjoe. It seems weird that people say we need religion to know right and wrong. People who say that sort of make me wonder. Are they saying that without religion they would be out doing those things? If so, then they seem a little unstable.
Originally posted by reavo Originally posted by modjoe86 Murder and morals are not abstract ideals. If religion never existed, I would still feel guilty about, say, raping a girl. I don't need religion to tell me that is wrong...I know
I feel the same way Modjoe. It seems weird that people say we need religion to know right and wrong. People who say that sort of make me wonder. Are they saying that without religion they would be out doing those things? If so, then they seem a little unstable.
The sad thing is that morals ARE abstract ideals. Not every society has the same values towards murder and rape that we do. In some cases they are even justified in other cultures. So if morals didn't exist ... no you wouldn't feel that raping a girl is wrong.
It seems weird that you guys think that your view on morals is better than everyone elses. You think your moral right and wrong is an absolute truth. But religious folk are just blind and have no true justification for their beliefs. I too dont think that religion should control the government. But I just think that the OP argument was weak.
And I understand your need to go against anything associated with religion. But sometimes it's uncalled for.
What's your Wu Name? Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader "Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.." <i>ME<i>
Originally posted by methane47 Originally posted by reavo Originally posted by modjoe86 Murder and morals are not abstract ideals. If religion never existed, I would still feel guilty about, say, raping a girl. I don't need religion to tell me that is wrong...I know
I feel the same way Modjoe. It seems weird that people say we need religion to know right and wrong. People who say that sort of make me wonder. Are they saying that without religion they would be out doing those things? If so, then they seem a little unstable.
The sad thing is that morals ARE abstract ideals. Not every society has the same values towards murder and rape that we do. In some cases they are even justified in other cultures. So if morals didn't exist ... no you wouldn't feel that raping a girl is wrong.
Yes, they are abstract ideas, yet, religion is not needed to teach morals. You are assuming that morals are the same thing as religion, but they are not. They are self learned throughout your life. Society influences them, but no one can truely teach morals.
And about those societies that believe rape and murder to be justified, that is justified by their twisted version of religions that influenced them throughout thier lives.
It seems weird that you guys think that your view on morals is better than everyone elses. You think your moral right and wrong is an absolute truth. But religious folk are just blind and have no true justification for their beliefs. I too dont think that religion should control the government. But I just think that the OP argument was weak.
LMAO, as does everyone else on earth. Everyone seems to think that they know the absolute right, but this is funny coming from a religious person.
And I understand your need to go against anything associated with religion. But sometimes it's uncalled for.
And sometimes it is called for, like in the OP post...
Originally posted by modjoe86 Murder and morals are not abstract ideals. If religion never existed, I would still feel guilty about, say, raping a girl. I don't need religion to tell me that is wrong...I know that is wrong. Same goes with murder, theft, etc. I don't need "God" telling me these things are wrong, I know that as a human being.
You're making an unfounded assumption that goes against everything history has taught us.
There should just be set rules for everyone to follow w/e their religion. I mean saying our god doesn't believe in this u have to go by what we say is stupid.
If you believe sumthing is right within reason then it shud be ok to do it, like getting the injection to kill yourself at a hospital if live is too painful to live (no depressives) lol.
Obviously murder of another persons life if they want to keep it isn't acceptable and stealing etc.
Originally posted by scaramoosh There should just be set rules for everyone to follow w/e their religion. I mean saying our god doesn't believe in this u have to go by what we say is stupid. If you believe sumthing is right within reason then it shud be ok to do it, like getting the injection to kill yourself at a hospital if live is too painful to live (no depressives) lol. Obviously murder of another persons life if they want to keep it isn't acceptable and stealing etc.
I say that the law should be this, 100% freedom, but that would mean that you couldnt do anything that takes away the freedom of anyone else. I think someone said this on this forum a while back, but to have 100% freedom means to have 0% control over others freedom. And I say that if anyone desides to break that, they are hung by their toenails untill they rip out. Screw no cruel and unusual punisment, their needs to be torture to compensate
Originally posted by JoHosephat Originally posted by modjoe86 Murder and morals are not abstract ideals. If religion never existed, I would still feel guilty about, say, raping a girl. I don't need religion to tell me that is wrong...I know that is wrong. Same goes with murder, theft, etc. I don't need "God" telling me these things are wrong, I know that as a human being.
You're making an unfounded assumption that goes against everything history has taught us. All history has taught me is that religion gets twisted to serve political and military actions. I've never seen atheists starting crusades or harassing people door-to-door.
Originally posted by modjoe86 Originally posted by JoHosephat Originally posted by modjoe86 Murder and morals are not abstract ideals. If religion never existed, I would still feel guilty about, say, raping a girl. I don't need religion to tell me that is wrong...I know that is wrong. Same goes with murder, theft, etc. I don't need "God" telling me these things are wrong, I know that as a human being.
You're making an unfounded assumption that goes against everything history has taught us. All history has taught me is that religion gets twisted to serve political and military actions. I've never seen atheists starting crusades or harassing people door-to-door.
Well that new book coming out might show that Bush JR is actually an atheist
--When you resubscribe to SWG, an 18 yearold Stripper finds Jesus, gives up stripping, and moves with a rolex reverend to Hawaii. --In MMORPG's l007 is the opiate of the masses. --The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence! --CCP could cut off an Eve player's fun bits, and that player would say that it was good CCP did that.
Originally posted by modjoe86 Originally posted by JoHosephat Originally posted by modjoe86 Murder and morals are not abstract ideals. If religion never existed, I would still feel guilty about, say, raping a girl. I don't need religion to tell me that is wrong...I know that is wrong. Same goes with murder, theft, etc. I don't need "God" telling me these things are wrong, I know that as a human being.
You're making an unfounded assumption that goes against everything history has taught us. All history has taught me is that religion gets twisted to serve political and military actions. I've never seen atheists starting crusades or harassing people door-to-door. Don't forget the whole "kill of people who disagree with you" thing.
Originally posted by modjoe86 Murder and morals are not abstract ideals. If religion never existed, I would still feel guilty about, say, raping a girl. I don't need religion to tell me that is wrong...I know that is wrong. Same goes with murder, theft, etc. I don't need "God" telling me these things are wrong, I know that as a human being.
You're making an unfounded assumption that goes against everything history has taught us. All history has taught me is that religion gets twisted to serve political and military actions. I've never seen atheists starting crusades or harassing people door-to-door.
If atheism is the absence of religion, then there have been more "atheistic" wars than religious wars, which therefor your point - A point that is a diversion of the subject at hand - fails.
Originally posted by JoHosephat Originally posted by modjoe86 Originally posted by JoHosephat Originally posted by modjoe86 Murder and morals are not abstract ideals. If religion never existed, I would still feel guilty about, say, raping a girl. I don't need religion to tell me that is wrong...I know that is wrong. Same goes with murder, theft, etc. I don't need "God" telling me these things are wrong, I know that as a human being.
You're making an unfounded assumption that goes against everything history has taught us. All history has taught me is that religion gets twisted to serve political and military actions. I've never seen atheists starting crusades or harassing people door-to-door. If atheism is the absence of religion, then there have been more "atheistic" wars than religious wars, which therefor your point - A point that is a diversion of the subject at hand - fails. You're retarded. Atheism is the denying of a god, and your logic fails either way. Atheism has NEVER caused a war, ever. Although there have been tons of wars caused by various religions trying to press their views on each other.
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The older you get, the closer you are to death the more each second becomes precious.
While I have every sympathy for the family of the dying, aged or dieseased, your lack of patience is not an excuse to kill.
20 Years ago my father made me agree that if ever he got that way I would kill him. I agreed. My mother asked the same.
My mothers mother, is clinging on to life like there is no tomorrow, she is a consistent burden on her children. My mother still wishes for euthanasia. When she talks about it, it isn't herself she is thinking about, it is her mother.
My father on the other hand no longer wants it. Things have changed, it is no longer his mother he is thinking about, it is himself. He hasn't got long left and he doesn't want to go.
.
The moral of this story is, things change. A person who wants suicide on Monday might not want it on Tuesday. If you killed him on Monday, you murdered him, plain and simple. It's not your decision to make. It's not any doctors decision to make.
Suicides don't hurt the one who dies half as much as they hurt the surrounding families. I've known 8 suicides and a few manic depressives, when I was a teen and much stupider in a much less agreable lifestyle, I tried it myself and failed. (Dur). I'm glad I failed, becuase since then I have seen 8 grieving families, and 8 greiving sets of friends at 8 funerals. (Not to mention within a year or two my life took a marked step for better and has been nothing short of fantastic fun ever since).
Damn right Suicide is illegal. It's not just you that gets hurt. It's not the suicidee's decision to make either.
From the funerals I've attended I have this opinion, for the family suicide is the worst death, followed by murder and then drug abuse. Old age or accidental death are much easier to come to terms with. If you take your own life, everyone who loved you will blame themselves. They wil never know for sure that they didn't fail you. That they couldn't have done something to make it better and didn't. For the rest of their lives.
Taking a life always has an affect on people. If someone isn't affected by killing someone else then that person is a monster.
Even in self defense taking another human life always rocks us to the core.. We become scared, sorry, regretful, nervous. It changes someone on the inside once they've killed.
And if someone doesn't feel that quaking in their spirit? then that person has no compassion for human life. And that person shouldn't be a doctor. Because the sole responsibility of a doctor is to tend to human life.
What's your Wu Name?
Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight
Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader
"Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.."
<i>ME<i>
Taking a life always has an affect on people. If someone isn't affected by killing someone else then that person is a monster.
Even in self defense taking another human life always rocks us to the core.. We become scared, sorry, regretful, nervous. It changes someone on the inside once they've killed.
And if someone doesn't feel that quaking in their spirit? then that person has no compassion for human life. And that person shouldn't be a doctor. Because the sole responsibility of a doctor is to tend to human life.
And forcing someone to live through another few months of agonizing pain with no hope of recovery IS human compasison? You clearly have never seen this kind of suffering before. This is a good thing, but it doesn't help your argument on the subject one bit.
You guys are very misguided to say the least. I will take Christianity to secularism any day. You complain Christians are forcing their views and laws onto you. Murder is murder simple be it at a gun point or a needle still murder. Now when you open the can of worms on this, who is going to complain that homeless or drug addicts are put out of their misery? I bet not you, cause after all they were suffering and had to be put out of their misery. Look at the current state of events of Chinese prisoners. Did you know they are being taken out of their misery so some rich guy can have a liver? The abuse that will follow will be truly tragic.
Lets look at the state of affairs in the US. We have been following a secular society for years and soon will be reaping all the rewards of such a misguided path. We have children having children at 13 years of age and younger. We no longer punish people who break the law we say they were abused so the four year kid he molested must of done something to his attacker we make excuses for bad behaviour. He then coomits the same crime making another victim who in turn later in life has a very good chance of repeating this sick behaviour only this time he will be the perp. We have mass fraud growing in America and the ones committing the crimes are excused because they have had a tough life so they get a pass. Try cheating on your taxes and see how long you stay free not long. We have double standards in our laws because if a man has intercourse with an underaged person he goes to jail. I f a woman does the exact same thing we make excuses for her. How many women have put their kids out of their misery lately? Too many to list thats for sure. When you devalue life it affects all behaviour in the society. How many kids in the last ten years decided to put their classsmates out of their misery? Way too many to list. Is crime going up or down?
When you take god and all that he teaches out of a society it starts to feed upon itself. Do you let your kids run free to play anymore or are you worried that a sicko will kidnap them? I remember playing in parks with no worries to my safety. Can you let your kids do that now?
I could go on and on but you get the point, I hope. I live in pain everyday. So I guess by your standards I should be put out of my misery. No I accept my pain I have learned to deal with it. The human body is truly amazing and yes you get used to it. If your family member is in pain ask for medication to ease it. Take them to a pain specialist so they can get on the right pain meds. I know about pain count all your digits from your hands to your feet and add 4 to it. Thats how many surgeries I have had in the past ten years. Now if your family member wants death get them counseling and try to give them reasons for staying alive. Suicide is wrong you die a second time for good. Do what Darwin said " It is better to believe in something, (an afterlife with god) than nothing at all."
I choose life not death no matter how much I hurt it is not my right to throw away gods gift of life. Nor do I have the right to murder my family members just because I perceive no value in their life or I think they are in misery. The funny thing about pain is that the pain is not the worse part, its the lack of sleep and what that does to your thinking process and body. When you are making this judgement of death for your family member try to take yourself out of the picture. Just because YOU do not or would not want to live like that does not mean you should murder them and that is what it is. Remember they are tired and may not be thinking clearly when they ask for death. I know I have been there myself and not the spectator who thinks they knew what is right you have no idea what is going on leave it to the doctors to decide not you in your emotional state.
There is no such a thing as "common sense" - At least in your sense of the word - It is social norms instilled in us as we are nurtured by our modern enviroment.
I would say that the only true common sense we as humans share is the instinct for survival, but ironically many a post so far has shown that even that amount of "common sense" is lacking.
Things like murder, and morals in particular are not common sense but abstract ideologies.
As for your definition of murder, it isn't muder, if it's legal. It's illegal to "mercy kill" someone in the States, and it will be treated as murder. Look it up in the dictionary, doesn't get any clearer.
Ok Think about the religion u speek of >>>>? It was created for Jewish ( HEBREWS) and is aobut hebrewsa thier one god ( the father son and holly gosst which is one but three ) is hebrew biased ( which means is for hebrews by hebrews )
ok in ur views of church that belives in hoplly bible are non jews and non hebrews ( both the same yet one si religion and the other is race jew= religion, hebrew= race)
when people are misslead thinking that thsi ONE GOD is thier savior or si it jesus that si the savur ohh wait they are the same try to controll the world they are starting what the bible si warning agianst a one world goverment that tells its people what, where and when they can shit, breath, fuck, and DIE which is wrong Japanese peopel warriors teh samuri took thier own lifes when a dishonor had occored....
thsi law is wrong and if a church can tell the goverments of today what they can do when they can do it and where it si to be doen is doing what they preach that the ANTI-Crist is all about ??
well i say this when they take the hebrew language and fuck ti up so bad that satan is a person or being rather than a adverseary and the world eats ti up like somne fucking retard then they can controll life and rule what goes around in our lifes
shit they mad gambling illegal over the inter net because the jews and AMERICAN goverment could not benifit from the online gammbling seperate CHURCH and state or u will end up with a one world goverment
if any one reads thier bible and goes to church dont they say every one needs crist ?? if every one belived in crist wouldnt that mean a one world goverment as in every one in controll would follow crist and getalong and b under the controll of one king the god or jesus or holly gost
i knwo i probley cant spell and if it bothers u make a law aobut it any way look ot ur heritage and find out what ur religion belifes are then follow what seems right to u a religion that was made for hebrews about hebrews or ur own religion made by ur people for ur people
but if ti works dont fix it but when i am told i cant die becvause it si not christen well i am of a warrior race i am asatru and i will fight for what i belive in
ty
Victory OR VAHALLA
In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.
There is no such a thing as "common sense" - At least in your sense of the word - It is social norms instilled in us as we are nurtured by our modern enviroment.
I would say that the only true common sense we as humans share is the instinct for survival, but ironically many a post so far has shown that even that amount of "common sense" is lacking.
Things like murder, and morals in particular are not common sense but abstract ideologies.
As for your definition of murder, it isn't muder, if it's legal. It's illegal to "mercy kill" someone in the States, and it will be treated as murder. Look it up in the dictionary, doesn't get any clearer.
Murder and morals are not abstract ideals. If religion never existed, I would still feel guilty about, say, raping a girl. I don't need religion to tell me that is wrong...I know that is wrong. Same goes with murder, theft, etc. I don't need "God" telling me these things are wrong, I know that as a human being.
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There is no such a thing as "common sense" - At least in your sense of the word - It is social norms instilled in us as we are nurtured by our modern enviroment.
I would say that the only true common sense we as humans share is the instinct for survival, but ironically many a post so far has shown that even that amount of "common sense" is lacking.
Things like murder, and morals in particular are not common sense but abstract ideologies.
As for your definition of murder, it isn't muder, if it's legal. It's illegal to "mercy kill" someone in the States, and it will be treated as murder. Look it up in the dictionary, doesn't get any clearer.
that is wrong. Same goes with murder, theft, etc. I don't need "God" telling me these things are wrong, I know that as a human being.
Murder and morals are not abstract ideals. If religion never existed, I would still feel guilty about, say, raping a girl. I don't need religion to tell me that is wrong...I know
I feel the same way Modjoe. It seems weird that people say we need religion to know right and wrong. People who say that sort of make me wonder. Are they saying that without religion they would be out doing those things? If so, then they seem a little unstable.
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I feel the same way Modjoe. It seems weird that people say we need religion to know right and wrong. People who say that sort of make me wonder. Are they saying that without religion they would be out doing those things? If so, then they seem a little unstable.
The sad thing is that morals ARE abstract ideals. Not every society has the same values towards murder and rape that we do. In some cases they are even justified in other cultures. So if morals didn't exist ... no you wouldn't feel that raping a girl is wrong.
It seems weird that you guys think that your view on morals is better than everyone elses. You think your moral right and wrong is an absolute truth. But religious folk are just blind and have no true justification for their beliefs.
I too dont think that religion should control the government. But I just think that the OP argument was weak.
And I understand your need to go against anything associated with religion. But sometimes it's uncalled for.
What's your Wu Name?
Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight
Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader
"Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.."
<i>ME<i>
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I feel the same way Modjoe. It seems weird that people say we need religion to know right and wrong. People who say that sort of make me wonder. Are they saying that without religion they would be out doing those things? If so, then they seem a little unstable.
The sad thing is that morals ARE abstract ideals. Not every society has the same values towards murder and rape that we do. In some cases they are even justified in other cultures. So if morals didn't exist ... no you wouldn't feel that raping a girl is wrong.
Yes, they are abstract ideas, yet, religion is not needed to teach morals. You are assuming that morals are the same thing as religion, but they are not. They are self learned throughout your life. Society influences them, but no one can truely teach morals.
And about those societies that believe rape and murder to be justified, that is justified by their twisted version of religions that influenced them throughout thier lives.
It seems weird that you guys think that your view on morals is better than everyone elses. You think your moral right and wrong is an absolute truth. But religious folk are just blind and have no true justification for their beliefs.
I too dont think that religion should control the government. But I just think that the OP argument was weak.
LMAO, as does everyone else on earth. Everyone seems to think that they know the absolute right, but this is funny coming from a religious person.
And I understand your need to go against anything associated with religion. But sometimes it's uncalled for.
And sometimes it is called for, like in the OP post...
There should just be set rules for everyone to follow w/e their religion. I mean saying our god doesn't believe in this u have to go by what we say is stupid.
If you believe sumthing is right within reason then it shud be ok to do it, like getting the injection to kill yourself at a hospital if live is too painful to live (no depressives) lol.
Obviously murder of another persons life if they want to keep it isn't acceptable and stealing etc.
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All history has taught me is that religion gets twisted to serve political and military actions. I've never seen atheists starting crusades or harassing people door-to-door.
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All history has taught me is that religion gets twisted to serve political and military actions. I've never seen atheists starting crusades or harassing people door-to-door.
Well that new book coming out might show that Bush JR is actually an atheist
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All history has taught me is that religion gets twisted to serve political and military actions. I've never seen atheists starting crusades or harassing people door-to-door.
Don't forget the whole "kill of people who disagree with you" thing.
All history has taught me is that religion gets twisted to serve political and military actions. I've never seen atheists starting crusades or harassing people door-to-door.
If atheism is the absence of religion, then there have been more "atheistic" wars than religious wars, which therefor your point - A point that is a diversion of the subject at hand - fails.
All history has taught me is that religion gets twisted to serve political and military actions. I've never seen atheists starting crusades or harassing people door-to-door.
If atheism is the absence of religion, then there have been more "atheistic" wars than religious wars, which therefor your point - A point that is a diversion of the subject at hand - fails.
You're retarded. Atheism is the denying of a god, and your logic fails either way. Atheism has NEVER caused a war, ever. Although there have been tons of wars caused by various religions trying to press their views on each other.