Originally posted by goneglockin Originally posted by DarkentwoIf you think Pre-Trammel UO is what the market wants and that all the current developers have no imagination, heres what you do:
1. Have a creative thought of your own and turn it into an idea 2. Market it to somebody with money 3. Make your perfect game 4. Sell it to all the peopl who want to play it, which should not be a problem since you claim all the MMO players are just dying for UO Pre-Trammel 5. Profit Let's be realisitc first. I'm not gonna get someone to produce an MMORPG on paper anymore than a woman with elephantitis is gonna get hitched to a millionaire industrialist.Now- I don't claim "all the MMO players" want "Pre-UOR." What I am saying is that there is a very large segment of disenfranchised or disenchanted MMO gamers who know what they want; and an even larger untapped market of people who would want the same thing if they knew whatever it was existed.So what is it? Is it a Pre-UOR clone? No. It's simply an MMO of it's own that takes it's lead from Pre-UOR; taking anything but the fundamental principles with a grain of salt. I personally feel the core elements are open PvP; risk vs. reward; and flexibility of how one chooses to play- i.e. no forced raiding for items. And if you cannot do any of this, shutup about WoW and the constant whining about their success. Thier customers like what they are offered and that's the reason the part with their money on a monthly basis.
Not to mention the fact that WoW is probably the major reason the MMORPG market has suddenly boomed. Because I can't do any of this... (design and pitch my own MMO and ensure and manage it's production) it's just one more reason from me to yell even louder; because it's all I and a hell of a lot of other people have. A voice. A negative, pessimistic, cynical, and nagging voice that begins to sound like nails across a chalkboard. It's the best weapon in our aresenal- and I'm not gonna give it up, and I encourage others to persist as well.As far as customers and their money is concerned- a subscriber is not necessarily a happy subscriber. I'm sure many people remain subscribed to socialize and be with their friends- and not because they find the gameplay rewarding or meaningful. There has been a flood of posts on these boards from burned out WoW quitters who are looking for something "new" and something "fun." A lot of them mention more mature PvP within their inquiry in on form or another.And has there been a boom in the market? I don't think so. WoW is doing great for itself; but the market hasn't picked up any extra big pushes from it- and many of the titles on the horizon are lackluster at best. There will be a boom in the market when WoW begins to falter and hemorrhage subscribers rapidly. Then the market will be flooded with players looking for something new and improved; and that's when we'll see a real "boom."The sooner WoW and games like it begin to die out; the sooner we can see progress.
Yes you are absolutely right. There is a large section of MMO players who are frustrated with MMOs in genral. Very true. I am one of them. You know what I do? I try to influence games that are in production, that seem to be slanting towards teh type of gameplay I want by visting their forums and make constructive suggestions.
I do not go around bashing WoW which is already a proven success, however mediocre it might be. What is anyone's screaming about WoW going to accomplish? They have a huge customer base and make hundreds of millions of dollars a year.
Real change comes from shouting out loud what you want and not dissing 6 million people who play WoW.
Personally, I am looking forward to Fallen Earth and Darkfall. They will probably have everythign I want and I try and make sure of that by voicing my ideas and opinions on their boards.
Ps. Just an interesting observation on the side, if 6 million WoW subscribers decided to diss any of our individual favourite games, I very much doubt we would be able to stand against it. And for all the talk of WoW subscribers being kiddies and all that, I rarely see them making threads like these on the forums. Makes you wonder who the real kiddies are.
Hey darken- how do you think the carebears in UO got what they wanted in the first place? They screamed, pouted, and irritated.
If it worked for them to deliver a 7 year reign of horrible MMORPGs. It can work in reverse as well. Besides; constructive posts are too long and no one reads em'.
Hope you got your things together. Hope you are quite prepared to die. Looks like we're in for nasty weather. ... There's a bad moon on the rise.
I played WoW, I wasn't a fan of WoW but if you hate WoW no matter what type of gamer you are then your a fool plain and simple. WoW will do more for the MMO industry than any other game has ever done and there is already proof of that fact. No industry sprouts up fully matured and offering the vast array of products that are tailored to every need. Sorry it just doesn't happen no matter how much you bitch and moan.
WoW is a rediculous success and what that means for us MMO players is production companys large and small are looking to cash in on the MMO market, which means more MMO's in production, which means an MMO to fit every taste, which means even the cry babys who bash games because it isn't thier cup of tea will eventually find a game they enjoy. Deal with the fact that you don't like WoW because by god it's not going anywhere no matter how much you cry. We will have to wade through the mass of crappy MMO's to each find one we enjoy and suits our taste. It may not happen today or anytime soon but you will find a game you like and those types of games if they are successful will come out with more frequency because of the WoW MMO boom.
Instead of bashing WoW look at what it has really done for the industry and thank your lucky stars something like this came along that will in the future encourage developers to diversify and fill every niche.
Originally posted by Valharan I played WoW, I wasn't a fan of WoW but if you hate WoW no matter what type of gamer you are then your a fool plain and simple. WoW will do more for the MMO industry than any other game has ever done and there is already proof of that fact. No industry sprouts up fully matured and offering the vast array of products that are tailored to every need. Sorry it just doesn't happen no matter how much you bitch and moan.
WoW is a rediculous success and what that means for us MMO players is production companys large and small are looking to cash in on the MMO market, which means more MMO's in production, which means an MMO to fit every taste, which means even the cry babys who bash games because it isn't thier cup of tea will eventually find a game they enjoy. Deal with the fact that you don't like WoW because by god it's not going anywhere no matter how much you cry. We will have to wade through the mass of crappy MMO's to each find one we enjoy and suits our taste. It may not happen today or anytime soon but you will find a game you like and those types of games if they are successful will come out with more frequency because of the WoW MMO boom.
Instead of bashing WoW look at what it has really done for the industry and thank your lucky stars something like this came along that will in the future encourage developers to diversify and fill every niche.
totaly agree , that south park episode was the first huge step for MMOs imo. every moron in the world saw that .. that means a few million people that had no clue what a mmo was , now they know something about it , expecialy the big boss guys , when they eard about 7 million people paying 15 $ a month ... thats no joke.
i play gw , and i have flamed wow players and still do ... but i love wow for what it is doing to the world .. spaming ... virtuality ... its a boost to the industry for sure.
Originally posted by Valharan WoW is a rediculous success and what that means for us MMO players is production companys large and small are looking to cash in on the MMO market... It may not happen today or anytime soon but you will find a game you like and those types of games if they are successful will come out with more frequency because of the WoW MMO boom.
Vehemently disagree. Production companies aren't looking to cash in on the MMO market; they're looking to cash in on the WoW market- there's nothing but relative clones on the horizon that follow the same principles as WoW and EQ; and that's the way it's been for SEVEN GOD DAMN YEARS. It's not changing any time soon, and it's not going to change so long as crap like this keeps making money.
The only good that will come from WoW is when it begins to die. There will be hundreds of thousands; if not millions of people looking for something on a higher level- more along the lines of what MMORPG was shaping up to be in the very beginning.
Hope you got your things together. Hope you are quite prepared to die. Looks like we're in for nasty weather. ... There's a bad moon on the rise.
Originally posted by Valharan I played WoW, I wasn't a fan of WoW but if you hate WoW no matter what type of gamer you are then your a fool plain and simple.
WoW will do more for the MMO industry than any other game has ever done and there is already proof of that fact. No industry sprouts up fully matured and offering the vast array of products that are tailored to every need. Sorry it just doesn't happen no matter how much you bitch and moan.
WoW screwed over ALL mmorpgs because now every developing game has to be dumbed down as much as WoW is, and as easy as WoW is to get any of their extensive, immature, and noob fan base. Look at the games coming out; play the games coming out; mmorpgs most likely will never really be a challenge anymore because WoW set them back to before Everquest.
WoW is a rediculous success and what that means for us MMO players is production companys large and small are looking to cash in on the MMO market, which means more MMO's in production, which means an MMO to fit every taste
All this means is more companies will try and mimic WoW, and make clone after clone or simplistic cookie cutter mmorpgs. WoW is a carebare game...I like I said before; the people that play WoW do NOT want a challenging game, or a game that rewards you for skill rather than gear...that is why they play WoW!
which means even the cry babys who bash games because it isn't thier cup of tea will eventually find a game they enjoy. Deal with the fact that you don't like WoW because by god it's not going anywhere no matter how much you cry. We will have to wade through the mass of crappy MMO's to each find one we enjoy and suits our taste. It may not happen today or anytime soon but you will find a game you like and those types of games if they are successful will come out with more frequency because of the WoW MMO boom. Since when were people that have oppinions cry babies? Instead of bashing WoW look at what it has really done for the industry and thank your lucky stars something like this came along that will in the future encourage developers to diversify and fill every niche.
It dumbed down the industry, it got rid of diversity among classes, and encourgaed developers to make a game more simple and appealing to 9 year olds.
@goneglockin: youre plain wrong I guess. Most of the players, including about 75% of the MMOG players I know, enjoy PvE over PvP. They wont play anything player vs. player related, period. They like leveling up, socialising, making friends, leveling another toon, going RP, hanging out chatting...
Have you seriously watched the crowds in EQ2 or on WoW PvE Realms? Most people want to play that way for a myriad of reasons. They get back from work and they dont want excitement, they want relaxing fun, many many people switched from chatrooms to wow and are not even very combat oriented, they enjoy making their avatar look pretty, striding through woods or crafting stuff. And even the Raid PvEers, I've been in a large WoW Raiding guild, most of them do the Raid PvE for the social event, also for that 100000 hp extra stats item that miiiight drop, but mainly because its fun sitting on TS chatting about a common topic...
The market has just begun realizing this with WoW, and I truly believe people that want excitement and thrill by the possibility of getting killed are a minority...
Originally posted by Nierro Originally posted by Valharan I played WoW, I wasn't a fan of WoW but if you hate WoW no matter what type of gamer you are then your a fool plain and simple. WoW will do more for the MMO industry than any other game has ever done and there is already proof of that fact. No industry sprouts up fully matured and offering the vast array of products that are tailored to every need. Sorry it just doesn't happen no matter how much you bitch and moan. WoW screwed over ALL mmorpgs because now every developing game has to be dumbed down as much as WoW is, and as easy as WoW is to get any of their extensive, immature, and noob fan base. Look at the games coming out; play the games coming out; mmorpgs most likely will never really be a challenge anymore because WoW set them back to before Everquest.
WoW is a rediculous success and what that means for us MMO players is production companys large and small are looking to cash in on the MMO market, which means more MMO's in production, which means an MMO to fit every taste All this means is more companies will try and mimic WoW, and make clone after clone or simplistic cookie cutter mmorpgs. WoW is a carebare game...I like I said before; the people that play WoW do NOT want a challenging game, or a game that rewards you for skill rather than gear...that is why they play WoW!
which means even the cry babys who bash games because it isn't thier cup of tea will eventually find a game they enjoy. Deal with the fact that you don't like WoW because by god it's not going anywhere no matter how much you cry. We will have to wade through the mass of crappy MMO's to each find one we enjoy and suits our taste. It may not happen today or anytime soon but you will find a game you like and those types of games if they are successful will come out with more frequency because of the WoW MMO boom. Since when were people that have oppinions cry babies? Instead of bashing WoW look at what it has really done for the industry and thank your lucky stars something like this came along that will in the future encourage developers to diversify and fill every niche. It dumbed down the industry, it got rid of diversity among classes, and encourgaed developers to make a game more simple and appealing to 9 year olds.
You're wrong about WoW corrupting the market.
Let me give you a simple example. I have been playing Eve since relesae. Eve had about 30-50k subscribers in teh period before WoW came out, six months after WoWs realease, eve was pushing 100K and now well on its way to 200K. Do you think these subscribers randomly popped out of thin air.
The answer is that WoW is the training ground for people who havent really been into MMOs before. Its easy to get into and play. Production quality is excellent and it has broad appeal. When people get bored or when it gets too easy, they move into other games.
Just because SOE is trying to create games that are exactly like WoW, doesnt mean the entire industry is going that way. Let me list a few games that have meaningful PvP so I can put your argument to rest.
1. Darkfall 2. Fallen Earth 3. Age Of Conan 4. Huxley 5. Tabula Rasa
This isn't all of them but just a few. None of them seem to be particularly dumbed down or trying to please the entire market. And I think Companies like CCP (Makers of eve) have already proved that games that are directed at a niche market can succeed.
Originally posted by Meridion The market has just begun realizing this with WoW, and I truly believe people that want excitement and thrill by the possibility of getting killed are a minority...
Meridion
Well you're wrong. PvP games are everywhere and have been throughout time. Whether it's Chess or Battlefield 2. People love to fight eachother. Sorry, you're in for a rude awakening when the market starts going the other way.
Hope you got your things together. Hope you are quite prepared to die. Looks like we're in for nasty weather. ... There's a bad moon on the rise.
Comments
Yes you are absolutely right. There is a large section of MMO players who are frustrated with MMOs in genral. Very true. I am one of them. You know what I do? I try to influence games that are in production, that seem to be slanting towards teh type of gameplay I want by visting their forums and make constructive suggestions.
I do not go around bashing WoW which is already a proven success, however mediocre it might be. What is anyone's screaming about WoW going to accomplish? They have a huge customer base and make hundreds of millions of dollars a year.
Real change comes from shouting out loud what you want and not dissing 6 million people who play WoW.
Personally, I am looking forward to Fallen Earth and Darkfall. They will probably have everythign I want and I try and make sure of that by voicing my ideas and opinions on their boards.
Ps. Just an interesting observation on the side, if 6 million WoW subscribers decided to diss any of our individual favourite games, I very much doubt we would be able to stand against it. And for all the talk of WoW subscribers being kiddies and all that, I rarely see them making threads like these on the forums. Makes you wonder who the real kiddies are.
Hey darken- how do you think the carebears in UO got what they wanted in the first place? They screamed, pouted, and irritated.
If it worked for them to deliver a 7 year reign of horrible MMORPGs. It can work in reverse as well. Besides; constructive posts are too long and no one reads em'.
Hope you got your things together. Hope you are quite prepared to die. Looks like we're in for nasty weather. ... There's a bad moon on the rise.
I played WoW, I wasn't a fan of WoW but if you hate WoW no matter what type of gamer you are then your a fool plain and simple. WoW will do more for the MMO industry than any other game has ever done and there is already proof of that fact. No industry sprouts up fully matured and offering the vast array of products that are tailored to every need. Sorry it just doesn't happen no matter how much you bitch and moan.
WoW is a rediculous success and what that means for us MMO players is production companys large and small are looking to cash in on the MMO market, which means more MMO's in production, which means an MMO to fit every taste, which means even the cry babys who bash games because it isn't thier cup of tea will eventually find a game they enjoy. Deal with the fact that you don't like WoW because by god it's not going anywhere no matter how much you cry. We will have to wade through the mass of crappy MMO's to each find one we enjoy and suits our taste. It may not happen today or anytime soon but you will find a game you like and those types of games if they are successful will come out with more frequency because of the WoW MMO boom.
Instead of bashing WoW look at what it has really done for the industry and thank your lucky stars something like this came along that will in the future encourage developers to diversify and fill every niche.
totaly agree , that south park episode was the first huge step for MMOs imo.
every moron in the world saw that .. that means a few million people that had no clue what a mmo was , now they know something about it , expecialy the big boss guys , when they eard about 7 million people paying 15 $ a month ... thats no joke.
i play gw , and i have flamed wow players and still do ... but i love wow for what it is doing to the world .. spaming ... virtuality ... its a boost to the industry for sure.
Guild - http://lightness.goodforum.net/
Blog - http://www.pierrecarlier.com/
Vehemently disagree. Production companies aren't looking to cash in on the MMO market; they're looking to cash in on the WoW market- there's nothing but relative clones on the horizon that follow the same principles as WoW and EQ; and that's the way it's been for SEVEN GOD DAMN YEARS. It's not changing any time soon, and it's not going to change so long as crap like this keeps making money.
The only good that will come from WoW is when it begins to die. There will be hundreds of thousands; if not millions of people looking for something on a higher level- more along the lines of what MMORPG was shaping up to be in the very beginning.
Hope you got your things together. Hope you are quite prepared to die. Looks like we're in for nasty weather. ... There's a bad moon on the rise.
Have you seriously watched the crowds in EQ2 or on WoW PvE Realms? Most people want to play that way for a myriad of reasons. They get back from work and they dont want excitement, they want relaxing fun, many many people switched from chatrooms to wow and are not even very combat oriented, they enjoy making their avatar look pretty, striding through woods or crafting stuff. And even the Raid PvEers, I've been in a large WoW Raiding guild, most of them do the Raid PvE for the social event, also for that 100000 hp extra stats item that miiiight drop, but mainly because its fun sitting on TS chatting about a common topic...
The market has just begun realizing this with WoW, and I truly believe people that want excitement and thrill by the possibility of getting killed are a minority...
Meridion
You're wrong about WoW corrupting the market.
Let me give you a simple example. I have been playing Eve since relesae. Eve had about 30-50k subscribers in teh period before WoW came out, six months after WoWs realease, eve was pushing 100K and now well on its way to 200K. Do you think these subscribers randomly popped out of thin air.
The answer is that WoW is the training ground for people who havent really been into MMOs before. Its easy to get into and play. Production quality is excellent and it has broad appeal. When people get bored or when it gets too easy, they move into other games.
Just because SOE is trying to create games that are exactly like WoW, doesnt mean the entire industry is going that way. Let me list a few games that have meaningful PvP so I can put your argument to rest.
1. Darkfall
2. Fallen Earth
3. Age Of Conan
4. Huxley
5. Tabula Rasa
This isn't all of them but just a few. None of them seem to be particularly dumbed down or trying to please the entire market. And I think Companies like CCP (Makers of eve) have already proved that games that are directed at a niche market can succeed.
playing since before ToA..and when WoW came out; EVERYONE left.
I went to Gareth...more population..then Mythic merged lamo and ector
with us...once again; almost 70% of my guild left to go play WoW.
Hope you got your things together. Hope you are quite prepared to die. Looks like we're in for nasty weather. ... There's a bad moon on the rise.