A way to make PvP+Looting work?

Marku

I think one of the main things that may piss some of us when we played Ultima Online is when your suddenly killed(either becausr you were a weakling or were caught completely off guard) and that guy could loot your whole backpack. But what if there was a system that reward you items/money depending on the performance of your fight: a long fight = more reward, a very quick fight = lesser or no reward. I guess this may sort of thing exists in games in different ways(like you cant kill some guy 10 levels below you).

Thoughts anyone?

Suave

I don't agree with the idea of looting in PvP to begin with.  It deters a lot of people from wanting to PvP to begin with.  Think about it, you're going to have a lot more fun in a game that doesn't penalize losers of PvP than one that does.  I know I would never PvP if I knew a loss would result in my losing actual items I've worked for.  Even games that show wins and losses in PvP aren't exactly the greatest idea, as I know a lot of people would rather not PvP than risk being displayed as a loser.

Marku

Well when i was in UO, i was scared to death to do alot on my own out in the wild alone, dungeons were quite dangerous. me and a group of Roleplaying knights encountered a few PK's quite often and 1 time i missed the gate(portal) one of us created and i was left behind to die(i was still a newbie). it was quite scary and left an impact on me, ive got lots of memories from UO, good and bad, but i improved and the fear lessened alittle, but it was definitly exciting.

UO was more like a world than a game, mmorpgs are more games than worlds now and thats why people like you are probably against the looting idea so much, your one of the newer generations of gamers i assume? (i started mmopring back in 98ish)

misterfuriou

PVP without looting is just fighting mobs that are smarter. If you didnt spend 6 months getting your gear ala WoW losing it to a pk doesnt really matter. It works as long as you dont have bs timesink uber gear in the game.

SnaKey

I think just the system that UO had works fine.

I love the way the EVE system works, but I don't see how that could ever work in a Fantasy MMO.

Marku

its quite sad we've strayed away from the UO path so much, they're so focused on the EQ formula. very sad :-(

WoW is just the latest EQ formula, that they got everything just right for those people in love with the EQ formula. Except for the pvp i think many would argue.

i know ive been very pro-UO in this thread but i would accept other style of game as long as it wasnt too similar to EQ, it doesnt have to be exactly like UO for me to have fun.


Edit: wow sorry i think ive really strayed from the topic now. lol

misterfuriou

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Originally posted by Marku
its quite sad we've strayed away from the UO path so much, they're so focused on the EQ formula. very sad :-(

WoW is just the latest EQ formula, that they got everything just right for those people in love with the EQ formula. Except for the pvp i think many would argue.

i know ive been very pro-UO in this thread but i would accept other style of game as long as it wasnt too similar to EQ, it doesnt have to be exactly like UO for me to have fun.


Edit: wow sorry i think ive really strayed from the topic now. lol

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They didnt follow the UO formula becasue although it was successful (and better IMO) the EQ formula is just so much easier. Think of a few classes and put in some mobs to kill and level up on that all you need. Repeat it 1000 times and then you have what we have on our hands now.

paulscott

the "hardcore" players messed up the genre themselves. 

whats the point of trying to kill some-one when you yourself have no reason to.   you "hardcore" players even go so far as to play the most unbalanced setup(even if its utterly boring, via being bad for the general game, haveing no challenge in PvP) instead of reporting it so it can be fixed before any body else starts to use it....

the whole point of open PvP is to add to the story elements of the game, a roleplay element, and once and a while a way for players to keep the community in check"bye bye scammer/bug abuser/botter".  not "KILL TEH N0()B ON SITE", the noob being a normal person with a setup/build that they like in stead of cookie cutter power build #15.

all you guys from UO ruined it, you made devs every where cry when they couldn't add cool open PvP functions in there game as you would abuse it.  now we have junky areana based combat(with the exceptions of guildwars as that is very fun) that only purpose is to serve as a relief from grind, and a end game thing to encourage various other grinds to get better builds.

and build=skills, equipment, gamer skills and a combonation of it all.

edit: two typos

 

misterfuriou

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Originally posted by paulscott
the "hardcore" players messed up the genre themselves.  whats the point of trying to kill some-one when you yourself have no reason to.   you "hardcore" players even go so far as to play the most unbalanced setup(even if its utterly boring, via being bad for the general game, haveing now challenge in PvP) instead of reporting it so it can be fixed before any body else starts to use it.... the whole point of open PvP is to add to the story elements of the game, a roleplay element, and once and a while a way for players to keep the community in check"bye bye scammer/bug abuser/botter".  not "KILL TEH N0()B ON SITE", the noob being a normal person with a setup/build that they like in stead of cookie cutter power build #15. although you guys from UO ruined it, you made devs every where cry when they couldn't add cool open PvP functions in there game as you would abuse it.  now we have junky areana based combat(with the exceptions of guildwars as that is very fun) that only purpose is to serve as a relief from grind, and a end game thing to encourage various other grinds to get better builds. and build=skills, equipment, gamer skills and a combonation of it all.  

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Wrong, the cry babies ruined it. In UO yes you got killed as noob sometimes but the people that found friends to stick with, trained up and fought back, and had fun with it are the people that stuck around and played UO for years. People like you are the ones that got killed once and said ok this isnt fair and quit the game.

There are plenty of EQ clones out there for you to play so go play them. But us former UO players have no current game that even compares. If you think UO players ruined pvp you are sadly mistaken.

 The reason to try to kill someone when you have no reason to is for the rush, the excitement. If you need a pat on the back (honor point) everytime you kill someone play wow.

Equpment should never come into the equation when it comes to pvp...ever.

paulscott

if you want a rush go to an area where there are other people seeking that rush.  i mean it is all the more challengeing as theres are people who are prepared for it, so be it, you got a far more entertaining rush even if you did lose, and a even greater one if you win.

sure I probely shouldn't be too rough on UO as its not the only open PvP game that demonstrats that a large enough percentage of players are attracted to it for the pure reason of "kill the noob".  meaning that the largest player base that you can draw paying people from just won't stay long, and spread stories of the gank fest they've experianced(even if it is their fault and they don't know how to play the game, or are newbies the first target to that personality),  this draws people who would have liked the open PvP far far away.  1 rant=30 posts of this game/genre is great

 

Cowinspace

Pretty much the only way to make looting not discourage people from PvP is to have items more commonly available to the casual player.

Guildwars (at the start) was an example, in that I know of several people who at the begining didn't level past the ascalon arena because the combat was so much fun. Just pottering about ascalon could net you a nice weapon, enough cash to get a full set of armour from town, and some valuable lessons in how to play your character.

Then the 'hardcore' PvPers took over, they got their characters run down to the lower shiverpeaks. They got the best armour/elites then started dominating the arena till it was no longer fun. I tried the other arenas, only the one in the Upper shiverpeaks even came close to the fun of ascalon until the 'hardcore' evetually wound up there to.

Other games put a horrible grind in between you and useable armour/weapons/skills. If there was an open PvP game that imitated the good parts of guildwars arena, with relatively easily accessable weapons (don't need to be the best, but they need to be at least competetive) then I think people wouldn't mind looting.

Oh or even better add in a 'looting on' option to your game, and watch as none of the proffessed 'hardcore' turn it on. They will whine and moan about their precious looting, but they would never take the lead.

A real 'hardcore' PvPer wouldn't care about looting, all they would want is the challenge of trying to defeat real players. The reward of a win would be enough for them.

nomadian

Yeah as guy above said looting is fine if items are common, and also possibly some limit of the number of items that can drop or something. Or alternatively and this may sound absurd you don't kill people but you fight people and the winner of fights gains an item of the other person.

goneglockin

I don't think loot is a problem when the items are pretty easy to come by once you are set up.  A lot of the pre AoS combat gear was easy to come by in general.

The problem was people abused it and ganked or farmed noobs- not for sport; but for their e-peen.  But it's not their fault even; it's the developers fault for not finding a solution and copping out with drawing a line in the sand and saying "Everyone who wants to PvP on this side; everyone else on this side"

If only Origin had a spine in 1998; had they pressed on for a real solution instead of resorting to the trammel cop-out- maybe MMORPGs wouldn't suck so much today.

Praor

Sure.....If the company had absolute control over their product  ( Credit cards anyone ) then I would love a straight up pvp action.............untill then no ty

admiralnlson

I think OpenPvP is best if the equipment is easy to get too.

I think the idea of easily-accessable "perfect' (= best stats in the game) equipement is good too to make fights even and not regret too mush losing your über rare equipment.

* In Guild Wars, I love the idea of :

- very accessable "perfect" equipment for quick and fair PvP (by creating a perfect PvP character in 3min)
and
- prettier equipment (but with the same maximum stats) by taking the time to create a PvE character and buying that equipment (the only problem being the relative grind/farm that is needed for that :S).

Even if everyone has the same stats on their armor/weapons, players can still brag about their equipement if they want to : "See, I got the armor of the Fissure of Woe, colored in the rarest color : black". So there still is a chase for the better(-looking) equipement, and I think it's good because it pleases players who like to focus on that aspect of the game.

* In an MMO with a real connection between PvE & PvP and with OpenPvP and player corpse looting, it could work that way too :

- Quite ugly equipment (but with "perfect" stats) is easily accessable and cheap (via npc crafters).

- Player Crafters can make (still "perfect") classy equipment with the exact style/color/... the customer wants.
The crafting system would offer a great deal of choices AND among them, the best-looking stuff, to avoid frustration for not been able to get the Prestige equipment (see below). A crafter's creations would depend more on skills and time, and _generally_ would not need really rare materials, so that if one of your mates is a good crafter, you would not need lots of money to replace your looted stuff. But still for those who are rich or willing to take the risk to be PKed and lose their shiny armor, there would still be equipment using rich materials.

- For PvP-oriented players : PvPers dedicated to their Faction, as a reward, could gain access to special npc "military crafters" (like in WoW, just without the better stats) providing prestige equipment. Of course, those special crafters' services would be free or at least very cheap, in order to be able to replace the equipment if it is looted from your corpse.
If it is looted by a player-character who's not supposed to access this special equipment but still uses it, then those renowned PvPers could kill him for commiting such an offense. And more : if he is seen wearing it by "government" NPCs (or reported by another PvP player) then he would be considered a criminal and be chased in towns, forced to pay a tax or killed on sight (depending on the crime : wearing soldier--->general equipement).

- For PvE-oriented players : the exact same thing as above but in PvE terms : PvEers would get renown by finishing quests ("you have destroyed the bandit threat on our village, i will make sure everyone hears about your kindness") and eventually gain access to special crafters and thus, Prestige PvE equipment.

I might have gone a little out of topic, but it was just to say that I think this thing IS possible without the usual secondary effects : "omg i've been PKed and the armor with those awesome stats i had to grind for 2 weeks to get just got looted."

(sorry for my bad english

misterfuriou

The number one thing that kills pvp in games is equipment gained from time sinks. In UO you could just grab a set of gm leather or gm studded leather and you are set to pvp and if you lost that its no problem to you. If you lost your epic on WoW upon death though thats a month of work lost. People that say open pvp leads to griefing have never tried it. Yes it sucks to be killed and lose your gear but thats what makes it fun. If you can just die and come back with no loss at all a thousand times what is the purpose?

Nicoli

Player loot drops/equipment destruction ala EVE can work in any game setting with one condition:

It must be a part of the system from the start.

As long as the game is designed with easy access to the best gear or that gear made by players is only slightly less effective than dropped loot it will work just fine. If its not setup that way from the start and you would try to implement it in a loot based game like WoW it would destroy the game.

goneglockin

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Originally posted by misterfuriou 
If you can just die and come back with no loss at all a thousand times what is the purpose?

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Uhm?  The PvP itself?  When the PvP is fun and interesting; and not just auto-click on combat/spell macros like in years past- gamers eat it right up because it's fun.  That's all FPS games really are, PvP raw- no stats, no skills- just pure PvP... and look how well it does selling software and clones.  You can still have your pixel crack though, don't worry.  But combat gear should not be pixel crack; that discourages combat- and generally just frustrates people. 

Marku

well i never once posted about UO on any forums when i used to play it, i just enjoyed playing it mainly becausre of the community and the roleplaying battles we had in trammel, i PLAYED the game rather than bitched about it like alot of us do now(Especially with SWG).

*misses hanging out at the Trinsic Bank on Europa*

if only EA had the guts to do a UO2. Money whores


i play Roma Victor and theres a good community, but its small. and i play RF Online which the grind isnt too bad as it used to be and ive met alot of interesting players on it(alot of WoW haters! ive noticed) i just want the pvp aspect, i know i wont find the same community spirit as i did in UO.

Suitepee

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Originally posted by Marku
I think one of the main things that may piss some of us when we played Ultima Online is when your suddenly killed(either becausr you were a weakling or were caught completely off guard) and that guy could loot your whole backpack. But what if there was a system that reward you items/money depending on the performance of your fight: a long fight = more reward, a very quick fight = lesser or no reward. I guess this may sort of thing exists in games in different ways(like you cant kill some guy 10 levels below you).

Thoughts anyone?

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This idea is flawed,although it's not a bad idea.

What would happen in the scenario that Victim A is on Low HP? He is running back to town,and the safety of the guards. Suddenly PvP Bob decides to kill Victim A,as earlier PvP Bob saw Victim A pick up a Rare Item. Bob proceeds to kill Victim A quickly as he is on Low HP. Sadly,because the fight didn't last long,he only gets Victim A's cap,as opposed to the rare item he wanted.

Bob curses the system that rewards long fights with two full hp combatants,and doesn't favour those who happen to get lucky on a low HP victim,or use the more powerful skills to make fights quicker with less skilled opponents. After all,what's to stop someone abusing the system by fighting someone,going down to low HP,running away and thus ending the 'fight',then accepting death by returning to the fight on Low HP,dying and thus only loses his shoes,instead of his entire backpack which would have happened if he'd stayed 'in the fight' and not run away to reset the 'timer' as such.

Ruthgar

I would prefer if an MMORPG had PvP it would be real PKs.
I want full looting, gold, equipment, onventory, etc. I think Binding equipment is a bad thing.
I don't like the middle ground. Either give me free PKs or PvE only. Mixing styles only
leads to nerfs and endless equipment one-upmanship via raids.

I don't see anything wrong with someone getting XP by killing another person as long as the person that was killed lost XP.

Pantastic

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Originally posted by Marku
But what if there was a system that reward you items/money depending on the performance of your fight: a long fight = more reward, a very quick fight = lesser or no reward.

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You're not looking at the situation the right way; it's not a matter of how much reward the winner gets, but how much penalty the loser gets. People avoid 'hardcore' PVP because they don't like losing their own stuff, and in general the people wanting 'hardcore' PVP either want to risk their stuff or make someone else lost theirs. If you're only looking at rewards and not penalites, you could just something like WAR's system where dead players provide loot but don't lose their own loot.

Fridwell

PVP V PVE is a very hot topic and that is why I will address it in my game please see my posting and check out my web site when built

 

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/1026852#1026852

 

Thanks

Kyleran

I thought Shadowbane was very close to the right balance between Pvp risk/reward.

The weapons and armor you had equipped could not be dropped..but the items/gold you carried in your backpack could (along with being stolen by thief characters).  At least if you died you were left enough gear to go back and try to take your loot back.

The system worked quite well....only thing that sucked was when your groupmates would loot your corpse and not tell you ...or blame it on a "pvp" er.....

 

 

Liddokun

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Wrong, the cry babies ruined it. In UO yes you got killed as noob sometimes but the people that found friends to stick with, trained up and fought back, and had fun with it are the people that stuck around and played UO for years. People like you are the ones that got killed once and said ok this isnt fair and quit the game.

There are plenty of EQ clones out there for you to play so go play them. But us former UO players have no current game that even compares. If you think UO players ruined pvp you are sadly mistaken.

 The reason to try to kill someone when you have no reason to is for the rush, the excitement. If you need a pat on the back (honor point) everytime you kill someone play wow.

Equpment should never come into the equation when it comes to pvp...ever.

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Actually macroing software like UOMacro and UOExtreme ruined it. Rampant 7x maxed out GM character made pvp battles in UO pointless because those who macro'd 24/7 would totally destroy players who didn't macro to build up their characters.

siftified

Agreed ^ Macros were the real culprits for destroyin games. They took some of the PvP skill out of the equation by exploiting their way to max lvl's. Hardcore players were always my favourites, I didn't care much for killing noobs, but I understood why it was done.

In AC it was a sort of "rite of passage" since our server became crowded with newbies everytime one of the O.o servers went down. Every newbie was quickly dispatched with, those who stuck around and showed guts were usually taken under the wing by a player or guild and became hardcore players themsleves. Thus begins the circle of open PvP life.