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Would you play an MMORPG with permadeath?
Viridia
Member Posts: 142
Just wondering, are there any mmorpgs out there with permadeath, and if not whether anyone here would enjoy one.
Suposedly Saga of Ryzom was going to have it, with a system of descendants so you could retain some of the benefits of your original char. But they backed off and are now supposedly going to have permadeath and replacement by a descendant as a personal choice thing ( The descendant would get some bonuses.... but i can't see it being that popular.....)
Anyone like the idea of permadeath and think they have a way to make it work?
A quick poll :
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No I would not.
I would play and bear a game with an amount of life each month(they get refresh 1 month after you died, each of them) althought, would most likely pick a weaker race with more lifes, but who know.
If the more uber races are really uber despite having very few life each month, I would maybe try 1.
Zerging would be out of the games unless it is goblins/orcs races, which would add to the taste, no?
EDIT: Could also have a timer for after each time you died, a number of life is more casual friendly althought, a timer to be able to resume a toon(from 5 minutes to a full month) is more hardcore oriented. With such a timer, the 5 minutes to 2 hours range need to be skipped, we dont want players to wait behind computer for toon to be spawned back, we want them to play something else. Amount of lifes that take a month each to refresh once used(casuals friendly) or a timer...a 2 hours timers mean your done for the night for most players, it is pretty harsh in itself and it bring most of the nice aspects of PermaDeath without bringing the ill effects. In order to avoid players taking more risk if they know they log soon, timer might be limited in how much it can deplete itself without you logging in the middle or something like that. Timer can have any value, and goblins can have a tiny 2 minutes or something to reflect the weak race choice edge while a Dragon deserve to wait a full month before resuming everytime they died(human 2 hours, elf like 30 hours or so if you make them much strongers then humans(more then a day)) while if an amount of lifes, humans might have 15 lifes per month, elf 10, dragons 1 and goblins 200...anyway, just an idea.
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I would play a game that had permadeath. I love it and hate it. There is such a feeling of danger, urgency, and desperation when you go into that dark cave for some treasure knowing full well that you may not ever come back out at all. I believe that a game with permadeath would create such a different environment in a roleplaying game. No longer would we see the powerleveling and robot-like mechanical gameplay of leveling, but we would see clever, strategic grouping among players to make the most of their hunt and advance cautiously. When someone sees that monster that is obviously higher level, they would no longer run at it with sword in hand, because they would know that it would mean the end. There is no consequence for death anymore in MMORPGs (besides Everquest and FFXI). The rewards are almost sure to come, because if I don't succeed in my first attack, well I'll just get up again after dying my 3rd time and go right back into the battle. At this point I am taken right out of the immersiveness of a MMORPG.
Some games coming out today had the idea of permadeath and looked as if they were on the right track to implementing it, but in the end players do not want to lose their characters, and game makers do not want to lose their money, so we get the same old thing. Until somebody out there steps up and creates a game with permadeath (mandatory), we'll never know how much fun (and frustrating) it could be. If you should die in the game, and there are features similar to what Ryzom may have, where you could carry over your favorite aspects of your character that is now gone forever, then I say that is a fair tradeoff for the excitement we could have while playing with this controversial feature.
I will be among the few that choose to play with permadeath in Ryzom, should the feature make it to release. I don't play MMORPGs to get to the highest level, be the most powerful and have the best weapons, armor, and items. I would like to get there eventually, but it is the journey getting there that is the fun of it. And it would feel like such an accomplishment if a player could make it there while all the time being faced with permadeath.
I'm not saying it would be the best feature possible and everyone would like it. Obviously, very few people like the idea, or it would have made it into the new games that originally proposed it. It would really change the player population of a game, probably to a more roleplaying environment. This would be just fine for me, so again, I would take the risk of losing my character forever if it meant more roleplayers.
So this is why I would like to play a game with permadeath. I haven't made too many points about how bad it might be for many people, they are obvious, but before you turn around and say that permadeath sucks and you'd never play a game with it, think about some of the points I have mentioned and maybe you'd give it a try, if there is ever a game that has it (which I doubt there ever will be).
Permanant death? Hell no. That is just like Ultima Online with no ankh's to revive. *Thinks of that and starts crying*
So I say no, I would NEVER play a game with permanant death. Nor would I play a game with pk, tk, and so on and so on and so on.
A common experience among pen-and-paper RPG GMs is that once they kill one of your players' character, that player (apart from hating the event) wants to have a similar character (if not his twin brother ;p).
People get attached to their characters, especially role-players. If you have invested a few months developing your character, his personality, his social contacts, wouldn't you hate it if you had to start all over? If not the stat-development, his personality & social contacts (from a roleplaying sense) begin from scratch.
Furthermore, in computer games, it creates certain problems. Your favourite character name is now gone forever. Everyone who knew you by that name must be contacted to tell them 'Hey, this is my new char', etc.
Though permadeath adds a sense of realism and we tend to want realistic games, there should be some compromises, to ensure having fun.
Currently playing:
* City of Heroes: Deggial, Assault Rifle/Devices Blaster. Server: Defiant.
* City of Villains: Snakeroot, Plant/Thorns Dominator. Server: Defiant.
I agree that a system such as permadeath might bring out a more roleplaying community but i think there are other ways to do this. maybe even have a way to award xp from roleplaying, or to punish those who play out of character (hard to do i imagine).
i personally get really attatched to my characters, and getting killed (even with no penalty) is like getting killed myself. I dont need a harsh penalty to avoid dying. In fact having no penalty is in my opinion the best, because if you have something such as temporary reduction all that means is that you go and make a cup of tea and are spending time not actually playing the game.
Also as for permadeath if you do get your character up to the level of fighting dragons etc do you want to let one stupid mistake, or a phone call, or (heaven forbid) your little bro logging your character on to make you start killing rats and spiders again? Its exciting and new, but it would make me so upset the first time it happened i really would never play again, i often log off SWG in frustration when i die, even though there is hardly any penalty.
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I used to play EQ for a few years, and have actually been reduced to tears of frustration from things like losing my corpse among a load of nasty mobs then dying 3 times trying to get it back etc.... I really really hated dying in EQ.
At the moment i am playing Hz were the penalty for dying is fairly light, and I find it quite freeing to be able to die, and just recall and head back merrily to the fight with all my gear and all my exp. I definitely explore more deep dark caves than i would have in EQ.
But having so little consequence from dying does take out some of the challenge of the game, my heart no longer races if i enter a dungeon, cos i know the worst that can happen is i get killed before i finish exploring.
Permadeath could be interesting in a game, if people want even more suspense. However, it would have to be in a game where there was far less chance of actual death. Either because you would level up in ways other than the continual mob killing grind or perhaps you would actually have to get injured and left for dead when you lose a fight instead of actual death, your character might heal over time, perhaps visible injuries would slowly fade as they do so....... although that could get very macabre ending up with a game full of bruised and bloody avatars
I used to do alot of MUDing and there were permadeath MUDs out there that had a loyal playerbase.....
As far as roleplaying is concerned I think I would welcome the offspring idea, you would still have an excuse to know all your old friends as Mum/Dad often spoke of them etc as well as having been 'taught' skills, and maybe inherited gear, but you would also have a new character to explore, without having to start as a newbie again.
When I try Ryzom I think I will definitely try the death and offspring idea, I mean, its what most parents dream of, being able to live again through their kids
hehe i like the idea of getting actual injuries.
Even if you are not going to have permadeath it could be possible to get things such as crippled limbs, blindness in one eye etc etc. This would give just as good an incentive to keep alive, although you wouldnt lose your character and thus get really annoyed.
When you recall to a bind point you could imagine that is your battered body being found and helped back to town and healed, although you were left with certain injuries. these could range from scars to crippled limbs, some may even be slightly beneficial, for example scars might frighten the enemy (although turn-off the local wench in the tavern).
These injuries could heal over time, or with the aid of a certain healer class, or something that is possibly very rare. or not at all. This would mean that even if you selected 2 identical characters they would be different in the injuries they sustain. obviously not all injuries would be serious.
Muahahahahahahaha
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Based on the standard character development that MMOGs use, I would not play permadeath.
permadeath in PvE - bad, PvP - in some cases good, for example, in dueling mode. dont think it is fare to kill some1 in duel.
∙name: EViLD0G
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Well I'm not considering playing a MMORPG without permadeath. I neither feel immersed or interested in MMORPGs atm. It's really hard to rp a brave warrior or something like that when, with current MMORPGs, risk is irrelevant and what is rewarded is hard work. Ever since I decided what I wanted from a game I switched to MUDing. Oh and to answer your question Veridia, MMORPGs that MIGHT make it to gold with some form of Permadeath are:
Atriarch (afaik full permadeath) www.atriarch.com
Adellion (3-lives permadeath) www.adellion.com
Trials of Ascencion (100-lives permadeath) www.shadowpool.com
Realms of Torment (PvE permadeath and you eventually die from aging) www.realmsoftorment.com
All 4 of them are free-PvP games. Supposedly they are directed towards hardcore gamers (but I don't feel like a hardcore player or anything like that. I only want to play a game without artificial barriers that somewhat resamples the real world).
EDIT(one of them anyway): Argh, misread that question. No there are no mmorpgs out there that have permadeath afaik. Those are just games in development... EQ had a server for a limited amount of time, but it was sort of a contest to see who'd survive to reach the highest level, I think...
Can you imagine playing a single-player RPG game, such as Deus Ex, and everytime you die you have to start back at the beginning of the game again? I can't. And, I can't imagine doing it in a MMORPG either. Doesn't matter if it's PvP or PvE.
I voted, yes. I like the concept of permanent death in games. In Diablo II Hardcore mode (permanent death mode), I really got a kick out of it. It actually made you think about what you would have to do next to not die, or wonder if that instant-kill multiple-shot lightning enchanted boss was waiting at the entrance of the dungeon. I really think that a permanent death system in a MMORPG would be viable, and enjoyable. Though it probably wouldn't work as the main concept of the game. Perhaps a seperate permanent death server somewhat like the Free PvP server in Asheron's Call.
Don't get me wrong, I got frustrated when I died very late into the game in Hardcore mode in Diablo II, which happened quite a few times. I just shrugged it off, muttered "Better...faster...stronger, she can be rebuilt." and tried again. Got a huge sense of accomplishment when I did beat the game on the highest difficulty. So yes, I would definately play an MMORPG with the permanent death.
whoamg.
SWG was suppose to give permadeath to the jedis to keep them rare.Even that met with so much whining they had to change the system.
I doubt a game in which all the chars can get permadeath will go down well at all ,if a game with a small minority had permadeath met with so much outcry.
Plus it will get dead boring with no one taking any tough mobs on because of fear of death.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.
--Jack Handy
Uhh, who really wants to cater to the physchopathic sociopaths? yeesh....
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.
--Jack Handy
No
Why? One simple reason
MMORPGs have bugs....and bugs end up killing people alot of times. How sucky would it be to have a high level character and all of a sudden die because your computer lagged up, or you fell through an invisible hole in the ground? It would suck big time
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Sometimes, it is better to say nothing at all. Cause big mouths say big words, and big words travel like bacteria.
Maybe,If the MMORPG is good enough and you don't lose everything when dying.
Or if it have some interesting options when dying.
Thanks
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The Cowardly ones Often Die Before their True Death;the Brave ones Prove the Death Only once.
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Obviously the pheasability of permadeath depends completely on the design of the game.
IMO permadeath could be cool if done well. Leveling should be much faster. But not too fast- I think the signifigance of levels should be toned down alot as well. Both of them should still have some degree of importance or else there would be no sense of character development. I think items should be just as important as levels in such a game. I think the fallout universe is perfect for this type of game.
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If you're going to have permadeath you'd want to go with a leveless design imo. Eve Online uses a leveless system where your skills take a certain numbers of minutes or hours or days as they get higher. This way you're not limited by your character's levels. Then it's just a matter of time and while you're raising skills you can do other things. Like build a house, or go hunting with friends, or farm some land, or mine. etc etc Although use of a skill should improve it , but levels suck, because then everyone is like I need to get pled to lvl 100 soon as I can so I can be uber l33t 111!!11!. At least then if you ended up dying to that wild boar, or by falling off the edge of a cliff while climbing a mountain you could start over without having to worry about working your way through 100 levels of pve boredom.
Another interesting way of doing it would be to have an xp based system that didn't have levels. For instance you kill a mob and get 1 mil exp. You can take that 1 mil xp and use it to train your hps, mana, or endurance. You could also use it to gain class abilities, or other skills that might not be class specific. This is kind of like godwars muds.
Anyway permadeath wouldn't be very popular because people inevitably become attached to their character and if he died randomly during an ld, or while the server lagged up, or some other thing that was beyond his control and the csr wouldn't revive him he'd quit. And that would happen a lot, and then no one would play the game. If you're going to have permadeath I'd make it an option. Those that choose to have it activated for their character should be rewarded somehow. Perhaps some sort of instant recall to get out of tight spots or something.
My opinion doesn't matter anyway.
It is pathos we lack, and this lack of pathos makes the worlds we explore quite stale.
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This analogy does not work. Games of this nature are made very hard, so that you have the find the best way to solve a situation, and a lot of times the ONLY way to solve it is through trial and error. Real life just is not like that.
If a single player game had perma death, you can bet it would be more realistic in terms of how easy it is to die and how easy it is to get through a situation.